GOP pretend fiscal restraint, and fucking the US economy and 401K's

[horn4life 3755]

Well here we are again. Another completely and totally disingenuous manufactured crisis, created by the same folks that ALWAYS add debt at a faster pace than their Democratic Satans.  But the main thing about these manufactured debt crises is that the GOP does not give a shit about damaging the economy when there is a Democratic President.  Republican President means borrow like crazy to pretend that massive tax cuts for mostly the wealthy do not have any impact on the deficit.  Only spending from Democrats needs to be offset, tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires never, ever, ever need to be addressed by balances in spending.  That is ONLY when there is a Democratic President.

OF course how do you negotiate with a person who cannot deliver the votes?  McCarthy simply pretends the GOP will pass something reasonable, but the reality is they will not.  If the economy goes into the shitter and it's a Dem Pres? Who gives a fuck.  So here we are, gonna need to scrub off a 700-1000 points off the dow.  And simply because the GOP cannot bring a budget to the floor that will do anything except let folks know that the GOP is full of shit.

So here we are.  The same folks that don't give a damn about debt, pretending they care about the debt.  This biggest difference this time is there is a large contingency of the GOP that will never vote for any compromise of any sort.  So the Dems negotiate with the GOP, who cannot deliver.  Then the GOP negotiates with itself and comes back to the table to renegotiate.  Then return the GOP again negotiates with itself, then again returns to negotiate with Biden.  What good is negotiating with somebody who 1) can't actually negotiate, beacuse 2) they can't deliver the votes on anything that has a potential for actual passage 3) In the end it will again be the Dems that have to save McCarthy, because 4) he can't do anything but whine and complain since he cannot deliver the votes.

It really does suck having one of the parties being basically a group of children who honestly can't compromise and can't deliver votes.  

[David Dennison 18661]

Probably should have made better use of the lame duck.

[mdmost 42865]

The problem is that unlike previous attempts, the crazies have now fully taken over the Republican Party and have no problem wrecking the economy since none of them understand what defaulting will actually do nor do they care. And half of this stupid country will go along with it and blame Biden if their 401Ks drop or they get laid off because companies massively cut back. 

[Red Five 40666]

27 minutes ago, mdmost said:

The problem is that unlike previous attempts, the crazies have now fully taken over the Republican Party and have no problem wrecking the economy since none of them understand what defaulting will actually do nor do they care. And half of this stupid country will go along with it and blame Biden if their 401Ks drop or they get laid off because companies massively cut back. 

And their dear leader, dotard, is saying things like "go ahead and default if you don't get 100% of everything you want". It's insane. 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

As always they demand that Dems give them whatever they want while they give up nothing and then they complain that the Dems won’t compromise.

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

As always they demand that Dems give them whatever they want while they give up nothing and then they complain that the Dems won’t compromise.

Why should they stop doing what works for them?

[Willfully Horn 7916]

Merely floating the possibility of defaulting on the debt does incredible damage. 
yes, OP, Republicans who point to fiscal policy as their reason for voting R are nitwits. The proof is in the data.

Here’s how you should cut spending:

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Willfully Horn
Edit

[horn4life 3755]

I wish that some reporter would simply ask. "You say the deficit spending is bad. Why then do Republicans never offset their deficit increasing tax cuts with spending reductions?"

McCarthy would look like a deer in the headlights.

[softlynow 1783]

13 minutes ago, horn4life said:

McCarthy would look like a deer in the headlights.

 

[Bateshorn 9905]

What I can’t figure out is if this is performative kabuki to let McCarthy keep his job, or if they think the WH is really going to cave and give them everything they want.  Because short of getting the House Bill, McCarthy is going to lose between 20 and 100 of his members, which means the Dems are going to have to make the difference.  And at what point is that going to be a problem for Biden when Jayapal pulls the Progressives and Fetterman, Bernie, Warren et al bounce in the Senate?

[wildcat09 29258]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

What I can’t figure out is if this is performative kabuki to let McCarthy keep his job, or if they think the WH is really going to cave and give them everything they want.  Because short of getting the House Bill, McCarthy is going to lose between 20 and 100 of his members, which means the Dems are going to have to make the difference.  And at what point is that going to be a problem for Biden when Jayapal pulls the Progressives and Fetterman, Bernie, Warren et al bounce in the Senate?

Not that he'd ever do it, but could McCarthy even make a deal with Democrats that enough Dems would be willing to vote for? I'd assume then that Gaetz or another member of the nutjob caucus would move to have him removed as speaker. I'm not sure what procedure is required for that, though.

I doubt the nutjobs would even vote for the House bill again, given that they're sensing Democratic weakness now. I don't see any realistic scenario for anything getting passed, except via discharge petition. And that will likely be too late.

[Hermanator 6944]

Some type of civil war is looming. Make your lists now fellas 

[GopherRock 1765]

A lot of McCarthy's actions are based on McCarthy's assumption that there are not 218 votes to sustain a motion to vacate the chair.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Merely floating the possibility of defaulting on the debt does incredible damage. 

Yep, it's like the tenure bill in the lege. Likely won't cancel tenure, but the mere fact they pushed it means that professors are saying nope to Texas university positions.

[elfenix 34172]

I made this

['stache 21774]

I had this conversation over lunch. My theory is that republicans, even the crazies, love them some billionaires, and as soon as a few of them tell them to stop fucking around aiming to destroy the economy, they'll get in line just in time.

[wildcat09 29258]

25 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I had this conversation over lunch. My theory is that republicans, even the crazies, love them some billionaires, and as soon as a few of them tell them to stop fucking around aiming to destroy the economy, they'll get in line just in time.

A lot of those billionaires are ideologically committed to destroying the government and think they're special and will come out even more on top of things than they already are.

[SydneyCarton 47884]

11 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

A lot of those billionaires are ideologically committed to destroying the government and think they're special and will come out even more on top of things than they already are.

They're probably not wrong. 

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Not that he'd ever do it, but could McCarthy even make a deal with Democrats that enough Dems would be willing to vote for? I'd assume then that Gaetz or another member of the nutjob caucus would move to have him removed as speaker. I'm not sure what procedure is required for that, though.

I doubt the nutjobs would even vote for the House bill again, given that they're sensing Democratic weakness now. I don't see any realistic scenario for anything getting passed, except via discharge petition. And that will likely be too late.

Democrats have already said that if McCarthy did the right thing, democrats would defend his gavel. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[horn4life 3755]

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Why should they stop doing what works for them?

The reason is works is they do not care about causing a fiscal crisis, American workers losing jobs, stock market crashes or anything else.  What they care about it trying to exercise the power of the minority as if it was the majority.  Of course having a Republican in a popular presidential vote is now a pipe dream for the minority party.  So it's gum up the works, Fuck up the economy, fuck up the supreme court and try, try, and try again to keep voters from gaining easy access to voting.

Dems blink because they actually do give a shit about the country and working men and women.

The good news for Republicans since are no longer any recognizable principals nor morals amoung Republican voters, elected Republicans know that there simply is no accountability.  Just tell a lie... and they will lap it up.

[hobbes2702 12847]

4 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Merely floating the possibility of defaulting on the debt does incredible damage. 
yes, OP, Republicans voting R are nitwits. The proof is in the data.

FIFY

['stache 21774]

36 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

A lot of those billionaires are ideologically committed to destroying the government and think they're special and will come out even more on top of things than they already are.

Government protects those billions, they only agree to rule up voters for republicans. Like owning land. Property rights mean Jack shit without a government to enforce them.  

[Pods 7530]

Every time Republicans fuck with the government staying open, they lose support. They are way over their skis on this one and the solution is sitting on a tee for Biden. 

Biden declares he is Constitutionally obligated to pay the debt by the 14th Amendment. Tell Yellen to pay our bills. Make the GQP sue to stop it. 

Regardless of legal language twisting, the language "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned" reads pretty straight forward to the public. Even for Dems, who suck at messaging, this is an easy point to articulate and for the public to grasp. Bonus points that the same states that were the problem in the Civil War are still the fucking problem, because the 14th Amendment was specifically written to prevent these traitors from welching on debt and crashing the full faith and credit of the US government. History rhymes and all that...  

If the already illegitimate Supreme Court forces a default, it will be very obvious the GQP is forcing it and they will own the following consequences. The subsequent crash will be hung clearly around their necks and they'll be annihilated in 2024. It will make sure everyone knows that the GQP has already packed the courts and that we must do something drastic about it if we want to keep our country. 

If the Supremes backs the administration, one of the GQP's favorite manipulation tools will be declared unconstitutional.  

TL:DR The GQP is bluffing. Stop negotiating with domestic terrorists and call their bluff. 

[nbmishoid 941]

Well, I can only strongly agree.  This is the moment the 14th has been waiting for.  Painting the gqp as traitorous confederates would probably not bother them a bit, however.  But still needs to be done.

[tx 3 putt 76402]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

A lot of those billionaires are ideologically committed to destroying the government and think they're special and will come out even more on top of things than they already are.

they don’t want to pay taxes if that takes blowing up the govt, so be it 

[Horn Dog 9674]

Is there anyone who thinks for 1 second that if the roles were reversed, that the Pubs won’t invoke the 14th and dare the Dems to challenge them??  Grow some goddamn balls and bring a gun to the gun fight!

[atomheartbevo 89449]

6 hours ago, mdmost said:

The problem is that unlike previous attempts, the crazies have now fully taken over the Republican Party and have no problem wrecking the economy since none of them understand what defaulting will actually do nor do they care. And half of this stupid country will go along with it and blame Biden if their 401Ks drop or they get laid off because companies massively cut back. 

And because so many Republican races are tight, to the point where the crazies cover the margin between the more typical Republicans and Democrats, Republican politicians are going to cater to the crazies to get them out to vote, knowing that the typical/moderate/mainstream Republicans will fall in line and kiss the ring and pull the (R) lever.

[elfenix 34172]

just to punctuate that congressional republicans are completely unserious about this:

Quote

With the U.S. careening toward a default crisis that they manufactured, House Republicans are reportedly crafting a major tax cut package that would overwhelmingly benefit the rich and corporations while blowing a multitrillion-dollar hole in the federal deficit.

https://www.rawstory.com/debt-ceiling-2660598222/

[Biff Tannen 45499]

5 hours ago, Pods said:

Every time Republicans fuck with the government staying open, they lose support. They are way over their skis on this one and the solution is sitting on a tee for Biden. 

Biden declares he is Constitutionally obligated to pay the debt by the 14th Amendment. Tell Yellen to pay our bills. Make the GQP sue to stop it. 

Regardless of legal language twisting, the language "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned" reads pretty straight forward to the public. Even for Dems, who suck at messaging, this is an easy point to articulate and for the public to grasp. Bonus points that the same states that were the problem in the Civil War are still the fucking problem, because the 14th Amendment was specifically written to prevent these traitors from welching on debt and crashing the full faith and credit of the US government. History rhymes and all that...  

If the already illegitimate Supreme Court forces a default, it will be very obvious the GQP is forcing it and they will own the following consequences. The subsequent crash will be hung clearly around their necks and they'll be annihilated in 2024. It will make sure everyone knows that the GQP has already packed the courts and that we must do something drastic about it if we want to keep our country. 

If the Supremes backs the administration, one of the GQP's favorite manipulation tools will be declared unconstitutional.  

TL:DR The GQP is bluffing. Stop negotiating with domestic terrorists and call their bluff. 

So much this. Call their fucking bluff. They will cave. You beat a bully by punching them in the mouth and they back down. If they don’t, they are still in the wrong and will own the consequences. Or we are completely fucked and it doesn’t matter anyway. 

[Pods 7530]

6 hours ago, nbmishoid said:

Well, I can only strongly agree.  This is the moment the 14th has been waiting for.  Painting the gqp as traitorous confederates would probably not bother them a bit, however.  But still needs to be done.

Agreed. Many in the GQP will likely celebrate the Confederacy connection, because they are anti-America morons. It might even energize some of their shittiest supporters.

However, young voters, the middle and independents will be revolted by the connection. Many of them don't pay attention until election years, if even then. They do not yet realize how bad the rot in the GQP has become.

You make the connection clear for these potential voters. The same asshole states that tried to overthrow the country before are the same ones trying to destroy it now. 

[Willfully Horn 7916]

If the choice is default on debt payment, or political hardball, there is no choice. Can’t dance around a fueled flame and expect it to die. Best to force the issue when the CIC ain’t looking to become a king.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Willfully Horn
Stray t

[SubliminalHorn 6674]

It’s incredible how much I hate republicans more everyday 

[Dnaguy 11777]

18 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

It’s incredible how much I hate republicans more everyday 

A party of clinical narcissists. 
 

Anyone who has ever dealt with one understands that they will continuously use your human emotions against you. Your brain tries to rationalize their irrational moves. The only way to deal with them is to understand there is no ‘good faith’ with these people. 
 

 

[RomaVicta 29794]

They make themselves enemies of the common good thus the country. It is right and good to hate them and not disdain any possible means of defeating them. I'm losing my internal battle to see them as deranged citizens. They've forfeit citizenship by inciting and now protecting an insurrection and would-be dictator.

If a bus load of GOP congresspersons rolled over into stagnant lake, I would not move to rescue a single one of them. 

It is what they've made it to be.

[mdmost 42865]

Permanently destroying the reputation of US credit, just to own the libs. 

['stache 21774]

16 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

And because so many Republican races are tight, to the point where the crazies cover the margin between the more typical Republicans and Democrats, Republican politicians are going to cater to the crazies to get them out to vote, knowing that the typical/moderate/mainstream Republicans will fall in line and kiss the ring and pull the (R) lever.

Which is why none of this matters. If necessary, Biden should pull whatever card he has to make the payment to avoid economic catastrophe, not because it'll make any difference in the election, but because it's the right thing to do to save the economy from collapse. Like anything a democrat does, its more likely to lose them votes. I'm sure there are some uneducated voters who went democrat last cycle who will fall for "omg Biden is being a dictator" like and second guess voting for him, because "both sides." These people are hopeless to try and convince otherwise.

[Js1 85112]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

necessary, Biden should pull whatever card he has to make the payment to avoid economic catastrophe, not because it'll make any difference in the election, but because it's the right thing to do to save the economy from collapse.

I‘m pretty sure using the 14th is Biden’s very last minute plan. The dude wants Congress to do its job. That’s fundamentally what he believes in. 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

Quote

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

The gop loves to quote shall not be infringed for the second amendment. The shall not be questioned in the 14th should make it a slam dunk for Biden to avoid having to negotiate on the debt ceiling.

 

[SydneyCarton 47884]

1 hour ago, Grade of D as in David said:

The gop loves to quote shall not be infringed for the second amendment. The shall not be questioned in the 14th should make it a slam dunk for Biden to avoid having to negotiate on the debt ceiling.

 

I mean I'm no attorney, but as a casual reader with at least an average IQ, the 14th amendment does not read like it's for paying all of our debts in this regard, because it specifies insurrection and rebellion. I don't think it will win with this court in particular. That being said, I hope he fucking pulls it and pays our debts to prevent catastrophe while those yahoos fight it out in court. 

['stache 21774]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I mean I'm no attorney, but as a casual reader with at least an average IQ, the 14th amendment does not read like it's for paying all of our debts in this regard, because it specifies insurrection and rebellion. I don't think it will win with this court in particular. That being said, I hope he fucking pulls it and pays our debts to prevent catastrophe while those yahoos fight it out in court. 

I just looked it up, never studied or concerned myself with that clause. But it says "including" debts related to suppressing rebellion and insurrection. I think it probably was simply to say that soldiers would get paid regardless of turmoil in congress during reconstruction. So by its plain wording, it's a decent argument. If its original intent, it's a harder sell. But as long as Harlan Crow stands to lose a bunch of money by a U.S. default, I'm pretty sure SCOTUS will find a way to let it stand, if it happens. 

[SydneyCarton 47884]

2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I just looked it up, never studied or concerned myself with that clause. But it says "including" debts related to suppressing rebellion and insurrection. I think it probably was simply to say that soldiers would get paid regardless of turmoil in congress during reconstruction. So by its plain wording, it's a decent argument. If its original intent, it's a harder sell. But as long as Harlan Crow stands to lose a bunch of money by a U.S. default, I'm pretty sure SCOTUS will find a way to let it stand, if it happens. 

I mean, yeah, within the context of the amendment it's clearly stating "We will pay back all loans for the Union, but we're not paying back shit the confederacy borrowed, sorry foreign nations who bet on Gray." But yeah, do it anyway. 

[Js1 85112]

So we could have counter marched on the Jan 6 crowd, took them all down, and billed the government for it?

Damnit. Missed opportunity 

[wildcat09 29258]

2 hours ago, Js1 said:

I‘m pretty sure using the 14th is Biden’s very last minute plan. The dude wants Congress to do its job. That’s fundamentally what he believes in. 

I'm worried there isn't a plan at all for if Congress doesn't pass something. They're really terrified of forcing a public fight with SCOTUS.

[wildcat09 29258]

51 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I mean I'm no attorney, but as a casual reader with at least an average IQ, the 14th amendment does not read like it's for paying all of our debts in this regard, because it specifies insurrection and rebellion. I don't think it will win with this court in particular. That being said, I hope he fucking pulls it and pays our debts to prevent catastrophe while those yahoos fight it out in court. 

There's conflicting rules of construction (one that basically says "including" doesn't imply a limitation to what it states, and one that provides for the exact opposite, because the law is fake), but the actual language refers to paying for both (1) pensions and (2) bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion. I think it'd be pretty hard to make a good case that "including" as used there was meant to be limiting, because those two aren't really at all similar.

Also, there's no reason POTUS can't say "SCOTUS thinks it means X, but I think it means Y, and I have a Constitutional duty to follow the Constitution as I understand it."

[Js1 85112]

The Freedom Caucus is already making the rounds bitching, so there's likely a deal with enough Dem support to cut them out. Neither side will get everything they want, but we will not default.  Not a single chance. 

Quote

CNN: Members of the hard-right House Freedom Caucus are signaling they could oppose a deal between House Speaker Kevin McCarthy and the White House

Rep. Ralph Norman: “Yeah, I am… It looks like we’re watering it down, which is not acceptable."

Rep. Bob Good: “I am concerned about rumors to the effect – and I haven’t read or seen anything yet – but rumors that we may have some sort of a deal in place that would raise the debt limit more than what was called for in Limit, Save, Grow (Act) for a whole lot less in return that we need from a policy standpoint, from a fiscal standpoint… And if that were true, that would absolutely collapse the Republican majority for this debt ceiling increase. “

Rep. Chip Roy warned it will take a hefty price to get his vote for the debt ceiling. He also would not commit to backing anything in the rules committee until he sees it

Rep Byron Donalds: “I am trying to be calm with my statements, but what I am trying to really stress is — at some point the American people do need to understand exactly what’s happening in this room, because if a deal is made just to try to save face on both sides of the aisle, history tells us that is a terrible thing.”

[Mdhorn 5911]

On 5/24/2023 at 12:06 PM, Red Five said:

And their dear leader, dotard, is saying things like "go ahead and default if you don't get 100% of everything you want". It's insane. 

Sure, let's ask the clown that routinely filed for bankruptcy what he would do in this situation.  While we're at it, let's also reelect the same draft dodger to become Commander in Chief, as well.  And who needs water?  I still can't wrap my head around an argument where clean water rights would even be an argument.  

[wildcat09 29258]

 

[RDCanecutter 26282]

C'mon big zillion-dollar platinum coin.

[Brisketexan 104628]

Brisket's rules:

1) don't negotiate with terrorists.

2) destroy terrorists with every tool available at your disposal.

Summary: fuck the GQP.  Call their fucking bluff.  Tell the world you stand ready to protect America's financial integrity, and the livelihood and retirement of literally hundreds of millions of people, but the GQP is willing to inflict horrific suffering for the sake of some soundbites on Newsmax.  We stand with America and Americans.  The GQP stands alone, only for themselves and political points.

[CTC2 2745]

What infuriates me about the democrats is that they can be so stupid sometimes. They should have raised the debt ceiling during the lame duck session and told the Freedom Caucus to go fuck themselves. 
Republicans are terrible but my team get run over by them constantly. 

[Horn Dog 9674]

3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I mean I'm no attorney, but as a casual reader with at least an average IQ, the 14th amendment does not read like it's for paying all of our debts in this regard, because it specifies insurrection and rebellion. I don't think it will win with this court in particular. That being said, I hope he fucking pulls it and pays our debts to prevent catastrophe while those yahoos fight it out in court. 

You may be correct, but it really doesn’t matter whether this SC will uphold it not with respect to whether Biden should invoke the 14th.  He needs to invoke it because it completely counters the eventual GQP argument that this is Biden’s fault and that they “tried to negotiate but he refused”, which is exactly what they will argue.  If Biden invokes the 14th, and the SC strikes it down, based presumably on GQPs arguments against this last ditch effort to save our economy, then the GQP owns it, and even our salt of the earth simpleton fellow citizens will mostly see that after months and months of coverage and suspense.