WTF India?

[Tailgate 3,022]

I can’t believe the consistency of stories like this. The most dangerous place in the world for women. Unreal. Shits gotta stop.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/30/india/india-delhi-girl-murder-video-outrage-intl-hnk/index.html

New DelhiCNN — 

A 16 year-old girl was brutally stabbed and bludgeoned to death in a busy public alleyway in India’s capital on Sunday, sparking renewed outrage over the safety of women in the country and violence perpetrated by men. 

Video of the incident, which lasted for more than a minute and was captured on security camera, shows multiple people walking close by as the attacker repeatedly strikes the victim. 

Only one man is shown attempting to intervene, trying to pull the attacker off the victim before quickly retreating.

[RPM 26,321]

They're as bad or worse than the Taliban.

[BabaYaga 15,299]

You mean a country that still has a defined and accepted underclass of "untouchables"

[BabaYaga 15,299]

3 minutes ago, RPM said:

They're as bad or worse than the Taliban.

You've obviously never had a Taliban customer service agent.  So much worse.  

Yeah, yeah....I'm the Devil.  Sure.  Kill everyone.  Got it.  So "Bob", what is the return policy....

[RPM 26,321]

[52-80 19,160]

in america female basketball players only earn 1/100th of male basketball players, and that's far more egregious.

[RPM 26,321]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

in america female basketball players only earn 1/100th of male basketball players, and that's far more egregious.

What's the percentage of total league income?

[Bevo 13,577]

Are the majority of attacks done by Hindus or Muslims - or is it more cultural based than religious based misogyny?

[ztejas 43,454]

1 hour ago, Tailgate said:

Shits gotta stop.

Alright. What are we supposed to do about it?

[52-80 19,160]

37 minutes ago, RPM said:

What's the percentage of total league income?

threeve

[Tailgate 3,022]

19 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Alright. What are we supposed to do about it?

I wish I knew. It’s truly unreal how often this happens there. 

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

19 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Alright. What are we supposed to do about it?

Same thing that humans have done for thousands of years, gossip about it and do our infinitesimally small part in adding to the social pressure to change.

 

 

[Js1 85,346]

2 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Same thing that humans have done for thousands of years, gossip about it and do our infinitesimally small part in adding to the social pressure to change.

 

 

What color does my instagram square need to be? #awareness #bethechange

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

8 minutes ago, Tailgate said:

I wish I knew. It’s truly unreal how often this happens there. 

Sir, have you heard of Chicago?

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

3 minutes ago, Js1 said:

What color does my instagram square need to be? #awareness #bethechange

I was thinking about the biggest enemies that India has and Pakistan obviously wouldn't work. What about a toilet emoji?

[Js1 85,346]

8 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

I was thinking about the biggest enemies that India has and Pakistan obviously wouldn't work. What about a toilet emoji?

I shit in a hole in the ground outside the Taj Mahal. I can laugh at that 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,512]

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

Are the majority of attacks done by Hindus or Muslims - or is it more cultural based than religious based misogyny?

I've always heard it's culture based. From talking with people that I know in India, women do not walk around alone or maybe even in pairs. Too many men harass them if not worse. Obviously not 100% of men do this but enough that it's a known issue.  A female friend in India would speak about taking the Infosys commuter shuttle home in Bangalore but her brother had to meet the shuttle to walk her the <10 blocks home.

I can only imagine the behavior in the more rural town that are not westernized as much.

EDIT: I've never been to India and I'm fully relying on stories from others.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Nice Guy Eddie

[conVINCEd 21,469]

2 hours ago, ztejas said:

Alright. What are we supposed to do about it?

Cancel cricket until it stops.

[F250 28,777]

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

Are the majority of attacks done by Hindus or Muslims - or is it more cultural based than religious based misogyny?

I'm guessing cultural since it is a big problem in both Pakistan and India. Ms. Marvel got me interested in the Partition of India and I went down a rabbit hole of history and learned about some crazy shit like all the groups (Hindu, Sikh and Muslim) went on a massive raping spree.

[Brisketexan 105,151]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

I'm guessing cultural since it is a big problem in both Pakistan and India. Ms. Marvel got me interested in the Partition of India and I went down a rabbit hole of history and learned about some crazy shit like all the groups (Hindu, Sikh and Muslim) went on a massive raping spree.

It was a giant No. 6 dance?

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

I spent a year in Pakistan, where—like India— the upper class is worldly, cosmopolitan, sophisticated, speaks with a posh public school accent, and sips Scotch at the Sind Club. The women are among the feistiest and beautiful in the world and the men are basically Pierce Brosnan with a suntan. 

The middle to lower class is a whole different story. The society is homosocial.  Imagine spending basically your entire life never talking to any girl who is not a close relative until you are married to a cousin. That’s the reality. 
 

I found it to be a really emotionally crippling thing.  In its most mild form it manifests itself in a tragic lack of Game, a complete inability to be cool because you never got laughed at by a girl for failing to be cool. In its most toxic form it is a complete inability to relate to women as people, but people who are different than you. Every woman you come across is either a relative, a wife, or a hussy who must be ready for your advances. You literally never encounter any other option. 
 

There’s bad side effects on the women, too (they end up being really infantilized). But they generally don’t go full incel like the guys do. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,512]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I spent a year in Pakistan, where—like India— the upper class is worldly, cosmopolitan, sophisticated, speaks with a posh public school accent, and sips Scotch at the Sind Club. The women are among the feistiest and beautiful in the world and the men are basically Pierce Brosnan with a suntan. 

The middle to lower class is a whole different story. The society is homosocial.  Imagine spending basically your entire life never talking to any girl who is not a close relative until you are married to a cousin. That’s the reality. 
 

I found it to be a really emotionally crippling thing.  In its most mild form it manifests itself in a tragic lack of Game, a complete inability to be cool because you never got laughed at by a girl for failing to be cool. In its most toxic form it is a complete inability to relate to women as people, but people who are different than you. Every woman you come across is either a relative, a wife, or a hussy who must be ready for your advances. You literally never encounter any other option. 
 

There’s bad side effects on the women, too (they end up being really infantilized). But they generally don’t go full incel like the guys do. 

I've heard from Indian men that some men will consider a woman a whore if she's walking by herself. So she gets treated that way. Then the scenario can be compounded if the family of the woman is shamed if anyone considers her a whore. A young woman walk by herself, and she ends up being beaten by her father or brothers.  Then you get into the whole honor killings that make the news from time to time. I do believe these are relatively uncommon especially in respect to the size of the country.

(Once again I've never lived there. Only listened to others tell stories which may be exaggerated.)

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,200]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Cancel cricket until it stops.

[SL Xpress 7,516]

3 hours ago, SimonBolivar said:

Same thing that humans have done for thousands of years, gossip about it and do our infinitesimally small part in adding to the social pressure to change.

 

 

Well, the other thing humans have done is annihilate whole civilizations who are perceived as a cultural threat, and/or occupy them and force them to change.

That's probably the most productive thing the US could have done. Actually carried out a successful occupation in either Afghanistan or Iraq and over decades try to encourage a different level of treatment of women. But instead we failed at both pretty miserably. And failed in nation building in Somalia, and in encouraging democracy in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, and Libya. In the case of Syria and Libya, catastrophically so. 

If you're able to nation build successfully and show a different way to live that people desire to emulate, it becomes an even greater existential threat for cultures/nations/religions who are behaving differently. 

But outside of that, not a lot can be done. In some countries like India these are manifestations of root identities. There's no real external compulsion that's going to change things. 

[F250 28,777]

5 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Well, the other thing humans have done is annihilate whole civilizations who are perceived as a cultural threat, and/or occupy them and force them to change.

That's probably the most productive thing the US could have done. Actually carried out a successful occupation in either Afghanistan or Iraq and over decades try to encourage a different level of treatment of women. But instead we failed at both pretty miserably. And failed in nation building in Somalia, and in encouraging democracy in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, and Libya. In the case of Syria and Libya, catastrophically so. 

If you're able to nation build successfully and show a different way to live that people desire to emulate, it becomes an even greater existential threat for cultures/nations/religions who are behaving differently. 

But outside of that, not a lot can be done. In some countries like India these are manifestations of root identities. There's no real external compulsion that's going to change things. 

Well, the British gave it a try for a couple of centuries.

[HiggyBaby 2,529]

in america female basketball players only earn 1/100th of male basketball players, and that's far more egregious.

The NBA should draft more women. Think of the savings.

[sidis 9,828]

 

[SL Xpress 7,516]

Misogyny is worldwide, with a significant historical and pre historical basis. 

200 million women throughout 30 countries have undergone genital mutilation simply to make them more suitable for their future man. 

South Korea is polarized along gender based lines in existential ways as women achieve greater financial independence but men want them to be the same type of wives their mom's were. Instead, the women are choosing not to date and not to have babies.

5 million women and girls are currently victims of sex trafficking, with 73% of those in Asia and the Pacific. 

Women in the US are extremely aware of the different threats they face on an ongoing basis due to their gender, whether from outright physical coercion, or mental abuse designed to isolate and make them emotionally dependent on their partner. 

I do believe India is the worst. It's not just arranged marriages, even as an early teenager. It's not only the justified disfigurements or murder - sometimes by the father - if a potential bride refuses their match. It's also the ongoing practice of sending widows into isolated communities where they're considered outcasts, never to socialize with anyone outside of their fellow widows for the rest of their lives. 

But throughout the Islamic world, the Hindu communities, Africa, and the Far East there are horrible abuses perpetrated on women on an ongoing basis. The West is not immune, but in a relative sense things have been getting better over the last 100 years. 

But there are plenty of circles where this is not seen as a good thing. It's seen as a threat for a cultural, ethnic, and religious identity. Look at what is happening in Iran, where the theocracy is making it abundantly clear they're willing to kill millions of their own people to ensure the continued subjugation of women. 

There's not a lot to be done on a daily basis to make others behave differently. Make sure our culture survives, both externally through a strong military and internally through a healthy civil society with shared values, mutual interdependence, a sense of fairness and justice, and respect for differences of opinion. Which we're failing at currently, but hopefully one day we'll improve from where we are right now. 

But failings on the part of our culture/society are fodder for places that do not share our values as to legitimate reasons not to allow Western styles of tolerance and the granting of more opportunities for women. 

Personally I'm grateful for the progress that has been made, and I hope for more in the future. In the meantime I'm glad we all share a sense of horror over stories like these and others that do not reflect what we believe is the right way for men and women to exist together. 

I'll also say the Indian government has made some token efforts to change things. I just don't believe in their sincerity or effectiveness. But that's me being cynical. At least on the outside there is some acknowledgement that the way Indian men treat Indian women in the aggregate is not okay. 

[52-80 19,160]

27 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

That's probably the most productive thing the US could have done. Actually carried out a successful occupation in either Afghanistan or Iraq and over decades try to encourage a different level of treatment of women. But instead we failed at both pretty miserably. And failed in nation building in Somalia, and in encouraging democracy in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, and Libya. In the case of Syria and Libya, catastrophically so. 

If you're able to nation build successfully and show a different way to live that people desire to emulate, it becomes an even greater existential threat for cultures/nations/religions who are behaving differently. 

The US has done superbly well at making itself an attractive destination for immigrants, brain-draining the better slices of Indian populace, such that they constitute a large part of the medical and engineering community in America, and are generally the most successful ethnic group. 

That’s a win-win.  Whatever else happens India should remain beyond America’s scope. 

[SL Xpress 7,516]

22 minutes ago, F250 said:

Well, the British gave it a try for a couple of centuries.

Gave it a try in what sense? Also, I'd say it was a hundred years at best. 

The British occupations in North America and Australia were examples of using genocide, subjugation, and token failed efforts at assimilation to conquer and colonize new territories. India was more an example of using already existing tensions within the failing Mughal Empire to divide and conquer. Shoot, the Hindu caste system in some ways dovetailed nicely with English sensibilities regarding class. Why change something that reflected their own values to a significant degree? Teach them English and cricket, import them to Africa as administrators for the railroads, which they then later became the diaspora merchant class for much of east Africa. 

But there was never any real effort to Westernize India or Indians. Heck, if you ask plenty of upper class Brits what they think of Indians you get an answer that sounds surprisingly familiar to what a redneck white Texan from rural east Texas thinks of African Americans. 

[gsoda3 3,262]

Gave it a try in what sense? Also, I'd say it was a hundred years at best. 

They started in the 1500s and didn't really stop til the mid 20th century.

[SL Xpress 7,516]

9 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The US has done superbly well at making itself an attractive destination for immigrants, brain-draining the better slices of Indian populace, such that they constitute a large part of the medical and engineering community in America, and are generally the most successful ethnic group. 

That’s a win-win.  Whatever else happens India should remain beyond America’s scope. 

Long term I'd also like to see more assimilation. That's not specific to Indians. That's among all cultures and ethnicities. But assimilation and identification with cultural origin are somewhat paradoxical. I don't know how you can have both. 

Just the other day I was talking to an older gentleman who grew up in a Czech community in central Texas. He was telling me all about how the Czech and German communities saw each other as enemies. There was no intermarrying. Salesmen did not cross into the other community's territory. Both communities raised their children to speak the mother language fluently, and then used it to identify others who were not part of the community.

But over time that was lost to a degree. Which is sad in a way that the ties for the Czech and German communities are not as strongly identified as they used to be. On the other hand, there's not the same Montague and Capulets dynamic going on anymore, either. 

We're not doing the greatest job in this country of assimilation. That's been true for at least the last 50 years, IMO. 

But I don't know. Then there's my Greek Orthodox friends who are part of what I consider one of the most successful diasporas on the planet. Certainly in the Houston area. They'll invite me to their homes for dinner. They'd gladly travel with me to Greece. But I know without a doubt that dating their daughter is off the table. She'll marry a good Greek boy. That's more metaphorical than literal, but the message is the same. 

Same thing for Koreans. Same thing for Jews. That's the key to keeping a cultural identification going generation after generation. The Hindu population is much the same with the added aspect of arranged marriages. 

But if we're saying Indians in America have a different level of respect and treatment for Indian women in America than Indian men do in India, I couldn't agree more. That's for sure. I'd say the same is true in the UK, too.

I'll also say our immigration policies are whacked in many ways. Numerous highly educated, highly competent friends of mine have had to leave the country when their visa expired. A couple of highly educated Indians I know moved to Canada even though their parents were citizens because they couldn't live and work here legally any more. Those are merely anecdotal, but India is an issue in particular because there's so much more demand to come here than the quotas for each country will allow. Nonetheless, you're right that the US has been well served by being able to immigrate a highly motivated, educated workforce to this country from Hindu communities abroad. 

[TwiceHorn 31,485]

For all the barbarousness that remains in "western civilization" and even considering the pockets of goodness and betterness in other civilizations, there sure is a whole shit ton of barbarity going on in the world outside "the west."

And, I have to think that a major reason for the reduced level of barbarity in "the west" is simply the material standard of living that gives people more leisure and comfort in which to engage the ego over the id.  It's not some moral superiority.

[TwiceHorn 31,485]

43 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Gave it a try in what sense? Also, I'd say it was a hundred years at best. 

The British occupations in North America and Australia were examples of using genocide, subjugation, and token failed efforts at assimilation to conquer and colonize new territories. India was more an example of using already existing tensions within the failing Mughal Empire to divide and conquer. Shoot, the Hindu caste system in some ways dovetailed nicely with English sensibilities regarding class. Why change something that reflected their own values to a significant degree? Teach them English and cricket, import them to Africa as administrators for the railroads, which they then later became the diaspora merchant class for much of east Africa. 

But there was never any real effort to Westernize India or Indians. Heck, if you ask plenty of upper class Brits what they think of Indians you get an answer that sounds surprisingly familiar to what a redneck white Texan from rural east Texas thinks of African Americans. 

Woggers?

[SL Xpress 7,516]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

 

 

They started in the 1500s and didn't really stop til the mid 20th century.

 

You and I have very different ideas of the level of absolute control Great Britain held over India in the 1500s and beyond until well until the 19th century. 

[Kennythetiger 9,386]

11 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

You and I have very different ideas of the level of absolute control Great Britain held over India in the 1500s and beyond until well until the 19th century. 

Are you a Lobo sock?  

[statsman 5,471]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

in america female basketball players only earn 1/100th of male basketball players, and that's far more egregious.

Maybe they’re paid by the dunk? Ever think about that?

[SL Xpress 7,516]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

For all the barbarousness that remains in "western civilization" and even considering the pockets of goodness and betterness in other civilizations, there sure is a whole shit ton of barbarity going on in the world outside "the west."

And, I have to think that a major reason for the reduced level of barbarity in "the west" is simply the material standard of living that gives people more leisure and comfort in which to engage the ego over the id.  It's not some moral superiority.

It's certainly not a moral superiority except in one specific sense.

Nation states that have somehow been able to implement systems that allow for the regular peaceful transfer of power to different groups vying for the right to control a nation's affairs are going to have different political options than autocratic countries, or even democracies infused with tyranny of the majority dynamics. But I don't think of that as moral superiority. It's simply that there's no real right, final answer for how to run things. It's all on a spectrum, and as a species we're constantly shifting along those spectrums too far one way and then too far the other. If you never give the other side an opportunity to screw things up on a regular basis, bad things are going to happen. 

Of course, there's an inherent fragility in having a culture that puts an emphasis on giving the other side a turn, because there's going to be a natural tendency that how our side views things is of course the correct one, and if the other side is allowed to be in charge it's going to mean the end of everything. Which then justifies all kinds of horrible behavior. And then there's the historical fact that all nation states fail at one time or another. 

Oh, and now we have the technological means to end much of life on the planet, which we didn't have before. 

[SL Xpress 7,516]

2 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

Are you a Lobo sock?  

I don't know what that is. I've been posting on UT affiliated sports forums under the same handle and only this handle since the advent of the world wide web and netscape on the old GoBig12 board, so I think the answer is no?

[52-80 19,160]

17 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Long term I'd also like to see more assimilation....

We're not doing the greatest job in this country of assimilation. That's been true for at least the last 50 years, IMO. 

...Then there's my Greek Orthodox friends ... dating their daughter is off the table. She'll marry a good Greek boy.

Same thing for Koreans. Same thing for Jews. That's the key to keeping a cultural identification going generation after generation. The Hindu population is much the same with the added aspect of arranged marriages. 

But if we're saying Indians in America have a different level of respect and treatment for Indian women in America than Indian men do in India, I couldn't agree more. That's for sure. I'd say the same is true in the UK, too.

By assimilation I sense you mean.. homogenize?  There is no reason for requiring or desiring foreigners to assimilate.  They only need to respect the laws and customs of their new home.  Marrying a local is neither a custom or imperative.  Not abusing women is.  If people want to live in their own enclave and marry in their community, that's fine, as long as they're permitted to live anywhere and marry anyone else.

I like the fact that there's Chinatown, little Italy, Spanish Harlem, etc.  Just be productive, abide by the laws, and pay your taxes, and youre a grade A citizen

[52-80 19,160]

41 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

They started in the 1500s and didn't really stop til the mid 20th century.

 

i mean cricket is still their #1 sport over there.

[Beau Vine 54,230]

3 hours ago, F250 said:

I'm guessing cultural since it is a big problem in both Pakistan and India. Ms. Marvel got me interested in the Partition of India and I went down a rabbit hole of history and learned about some crazy shit like all the groups (Hindu, Sikh and Muslim) went on a massive raping spree.

[SL Xpress 7,516]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

By assimilation I sense you mean.. homogenize?  There is no reason for requiring or desiring foreigners to assimilate.  They only need to respect the laws and customs of their new home.  Marrying a local is neither a custom or imperative.  Not abusing women is.  If people want to live in their own enclave and marry in their community, that's fine, as long as they're permitted to live anywhere and marry anyone else.

I like the fact that there's Chinatown, little Italy, Spanish Harlem, etc.  Just be productive, abide by the laws, and pay your taxes, and youre a grade A citizen

It depends on the level of interaction, the size of the population, and the desire for power/control.

There's not a big need for the Amish to assimilate, for example. They're not a growing community, and they have no desire for increased political or economic leverage. But the lack of assimilation will always mean they're a potential target if some community leader is able to successfully identify them as a threat. It's their inherent powerlessness that is their key to avoiding certain repercussions.

If a community is having a challenge keeping their cultural identity - Italian Americans, for example - that's not necessarily a bad thing. The pressure to marry another Italian, or for an Irish American to marry another Irish, is not the same it used to be. To the extent it still exists - and it for sure does - that cultural identity will be kept alive. But the level of Italian or Irish immigrants is not at the same massive level it once was. 

If the Irish were running a Tammany Hall in every major city in the US, that would be an issue. It would be to the benefit of the Irish short term, but long term it would create cultural resentments and backlashes, possibly catastrophic ones. 

To the extent any other immigrant group takes over those kinds of roles and is able to sustain them, it's a danger to the cohesiveness of the country. The cultural identification enjoying the benefits of tribal favoritism will feel like they've rightfully earned their influence and power, but the unintended consequence will eventually be a significant counter cultural backlash. It's inevitable. The best way to avoid this is as much assimilation as possible. Being productive, abiding by laws, paying taxes is not enough if one identifiable tribe becomes so powerful - even through meritocratic means - that it creates a schism where other tribes feel justified in either ending or at least reining in their source of power. I'm very purposefully not identifying one specific tribe here. Substitute white anglo-saxon protestants, and it's the same result. 

If I were to give you a list of minorities throughout the course of history where this backlash occurred - or is even occurring right now - we'd be here all day. It's practically impossible to identify a country where that's not the case unless the country is literally so homogenized that the dynamic doesn't really even exist. 

 

[Nivek 16,933]

Misogyny is worldwide, with a significant historical and pre historical basis. 
200 million women throughout 30 countries have undergone genital mutilation simply to make them more suitable for their future man. 
South Korea is polarized along gender based lines in existential ways as women achieve greater financial independence but men want them to be the same type of wives their mom's were. Instead, the women are choosing not to date and not to have babies.
5 million women and girls are currently victims of sex trafficking, with 73% of those in Asia and the Pacific. 
Women in the US are extremely aware of the different threats they face on an ongoing basis due to their gender, whether from outright physical coercion, or mental abuse designed to isolate and make them emotionally dependent on their partner. 
I do believe India is the worst. It's not just arranged marriages, even as an early teenager. It's not only the justified disfigurements or murder - sometimes by the father - if a potential bride refuses their match. It's also the ongoing practice of sending widows into isolated communities where they're considered outcasts, never to socialize with anyone outside of their fellow widows for the rest of their lives. 
But throughout the Islamic world, the Hindu communities, Africa, and the Far East there are horrible abuses perpetrated on women on an ongoing basis. The West is not immune, but in a relative sense things have been getting better over the last 100 years. 
But there are plenty of circles where this is not seen as a good thing. It's seen as a threat for a cultural, ethnic, and religious identity. Look at what is happening in Iran, where the theocracy is making it abundantly clear they're willing to kill millions of their own people to ensure the continued subjugation of women. 
There's not a lot to be done on a daily basis to make others behave differently. Make sure our culture survives, both externally through a strong military and internally through a healthy civil society with shared values, mutual interdependence, a sense of fairness and justice, and respect for differences of opinion. Which we're failing at currently, but hopefully one day we'll improve from where we are right now. 
But failings on the part of our culture/society are fodder for places that do not share our values as to legitimate reasons not to allow Western styles of tolerance and the granting of more opportunities for women. 
Personally I'm grateful for the progress that has been made, and I hope for more in the future. In the meantime I'm glad we all share a sense of horror over stories like these and others that do not reflect what we believe is the right way for men and women to exist together. 
I'll also say the Indian government has made some token efforts to change things. I just don't believe in their sincerity or effectiveness. But that's me being cynical. At least on the outside there is some acknowledgement that the way Indian men treat Indian women in the aggregate is not okay. 

Genitail mutilation is not something we can really claim a moral high ground on.

[SL Xpress 7,516]

16 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Genital mutilation is not something we can really claim a moral high ground on.

I'm not claiming a moral high ground on anything. I'm saying misogyny is rampant worldwide, and always has been. 

If you're referring to circumcision, regardless of your views of it, there's a different level of invasiveness in surgically removing a male's foreskin and surgically removing a female's clitoris. I'm not defending either practice, but I am saying this is not an apples to apples comparison.

[Bevo 13,577]

25 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Genitail mutilation is not something we can really claim a moral high ground on.

From what I remember, I didn't even cry. But I did write a strongly worded message to the mohel.

[Kennythetiger 9,386]

1 hour ago, SL Xpress said:

I don't know what that is. I've been posting on UT affiliated sports forums under the same handle and only this handle since the advent of the world wide web and netscape on the old GoBig12 board, so I think the answer is no?

It was a joke. Lobo doesn’t believe in brevity. 

[SL Xpress 7,516]

8 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

It was a joke. Lobo doesn’t believe in brevity. 

Yeah, it’s a common complaint directed towards me for sure. 

[JesusSweatDuck 17,781]

1 hour ago, SL Xpress said:

I'm not claiming a moral high ground on anything. I'm saying misogyny is rampant worldwide, and always has been. 

If you're referring to circumcision, regardless of your views of it, there's a different level of invasiveness in surgically removing a male's foreskin and surgically removing a female's clitoris. I'm not defending either practice, but I am saying this is not an apples to apples comparison.

That and there are some actual medical benefits to it.  Female "circumcision" has no medical benefit.

[Armybrat 40,850]

2 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

It depends on the level of interaction, the size of the population, and the desire for power/control.

There's not a big need for the Amish to assimilate, for example. They're not a growing community, and they have no desire for increased political or economic leverage. But the lack of assimilation will always mean they're a potential target if some community leader is able to successfully identify them as a threat. It's their inherent powerlessness that is their key to avoiding certain repercussions.

If a community is having a challenge keeping their cultural identity - Italian Americans, for example - that's not necessarily a bad thing. The pressure to marry another Italian, or for an Irish American to marry another Irish, is not the same it used to be. To the extent it still exists - and it for sure does - that cultural identity will be kept alive. But the level of Italian or Irish immigrants is not at the same massive level it once was. 

If the Irish were running a Tammany Hall in every major city in the US, that would be an issue. It would be to the benefit of the Irish short term, but long term it would create cultural resentments and backlashes, possibly catastrophic ones. 

To the extent any other immigrant group takes over those kinds of roles and is able to sustain them, it's a danger to the cohesiveness of the country. The cultural identification enjoying the benefits of tribal favoritism will feel like they've rightfully earned their influence and power, but the unintended consequence will eventually be a significant counter cultural backlash. It's inevitable. The best way to avoid this is as much assimilation as possible. Being productive, abiding by laws, paying taxes is not enough if one identifiable tribe becomes so powerful - even through meritocratic means - that it creates a schism where other tribes feel justified in either ending or at least reining in their source of power. I'm very purposefully not identifying one specific tribe here. Substitute white anglo-saxon protestants, and it's the same result. 

If I were to give you a list of minorities throughout the course of history where this backlash occurred - or is even occurring right now - we'd be here all day. It's practically impossible to identify a country where that's not the case unless the country is literally so homogenized that the dynamic doesn't really even exist.