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Posted

My brother-in-law is set to graduate from UT after the fall semester. Best I can gather, we took a class pass/fail in the fall and passed it, then re-took the class this spring semester for credit. One of the assignments was essentially the same between semesters and he may have reused portions of his work from the previous semester.  It wasn't a midterm or a final or anything, but a garden variety assignment.

He received a letter from the Office of the Dean of Students alleging a violation of UT's Institutional Rules. Specifically, "11-402(a)(7)(c), [sic: it's actually 11-401(a)(7)9c)] about "self-plagiarism," which reads as follows:

Plagiarism [is]...when a person submits essentially the same work for two assignments without the permission of the Faculty Member. 

In any case, he's freaking out since he only has one semester left. 

Anyone have any experience here? Is this the type of thing where he goes hat-in-hand to the Dean and gets some sort of training under the "Restorative Practices Alternative?" Perhaps he just gets a zero for the assignment or a lowered grade for the class? Is academic probation in play? How about expulsion? I get the sense that the violation is minor enough that a slap on the wrist is warranted, but if his graduation is threatened, I think it makes sense to lawyer up.

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride/see-it-throughness and his love for UT. So that pride part would really be upended if he couldn't graduate.

Any background on likely outcomes, experiences you've had, or guidance in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

Posted
  On 5/31/2023 at 7:36 PM, choripan said:

My brother-in-law is set to graduate from UT after the fall semester. Best I can gather, we took a class pass/fail in the fall and passed it, then re-took the class this spring semester for credit. One of the assignments was essentially the same between semesters and he may have reused portions of his work from the previous semester.  It wasn't a midterm or a final or anything, but a garden variety assignment.

He received a letter from the Office of the Dean of Students alleging a violation of UT's Institutional Rules. Specifically, "11-402(a)(7)(c), [sic: it's actually 11-401(a)(7)9c)] about "self-plagiarism," which reads as follows:

Plagiarism [is]...when a person submits essentially the same work for two assignments without the permission of the Faculty Member. 

In any case, he's freaking out since he only has one semester left. 

Anyone have any experience here? Is this the type of thing where he goes hat-in-hand to the Dean and gets some sort of training under the "Restorative Practices Alternative?" Perhaps he just gets a zero for the assignment or a lowered grade for the class? Is academic probation in play? How about expulsion? I get the sense that the violation is minor enough that a slap on the wrist is warranted, but if his graduation is threatened, I think it makes sense to lawyer up.

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride/see-it-throughness and his love for UT. So that pride part would really be upended if he couldn't graduate.

Any background on likely outcomes, experiences you've had, or guidance in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

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It seems like he should speak first with the professor. It seems kind of chickenshit for the professor to go straight to the Dean. He should probably record the conversation though, because it sounds like the professor isn't upfront. OTOH, your BIL might be FOS.

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Posted
  On 5/31/2023 at 7:36 PM, choripan said:

My brother-in-law is set to graduate from UT after the fall semester. Best I can gather, we took a class pass/fail in the fall and passed it, then re-took the class this spring semester for credit. One of the assignments was essentially the same between semesters and he may have reused portions of his work from the previous semester.  It wasn't a midterm or a final or anything, but a garden variety assignment.

He received a letter from the Office of the Dean of Students alleging a violation of UT's Institutional Rules. Specifically, "11-402(a)(7)(c), [sic: it's actually 11-401(a)(7)9c)] about "self-plagiarism," which reads as follows:

Plagiarism [is]...when a person submits essentially the same work for two assignments without the permission of the Faculty Member. 

In any case, he's freaking out since he only has one semester left. 

Anyone have any experience here? Is this the type of thing where he goes hat-in-hand to the Dean and gets some sort of training under the "Restorative Practices Alternative?" Perhaps he just gets a zero for the assignment or a lowered grade for the class? Is academic probation in play? How about expulsion? I get the sense that the violation is minor enough that a slap on the wrist is warranted, but if his graduation is threatened, I think it makes sense to lawyer up.

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride/see-it-throughness and his love for UT. So that pride part would really be upended if he couldn't graduate.

Any background on likely outcomes, experiences you've had, or guidance in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

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In a nut shell, home chicken learned something the first time around (paid attention) and then got the same questions asked of him at a later date and answered the same way.

Isn't that what we are trying to achieve here?  Was he supposed to come up with the correct answers to the same assignment through some circuitous route just to show he could do it that way? 

If in 2022  I'm asked what is 2 + 2 and I answer 4 I'm good to go.  A year later I'm asked the same question and have the same answer then I'm a self-plagiarizing cheat?

Sounds like the professors got what they asked for but did not particularly like that and started bleeding out their behinds over the whole affair.

Or the professor is his wife and she's just mad that he's not doing math her way.

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Posted

Almost everything gets run through electronic system today and likely this was an automatic trigger.

At this point he can just be honest and contrite and hope for the best. Could be as little as warning or redoing the assignment or taking zero on that particular one.  All depends on how bad it was and if this was his first instance of it.

From the Student Contact guide:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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Posted

What’s the point of taking it twice other than to bump up your gpa or something. Seems weird it’s allowed. Unless he failed it the first time and is a needed class

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Posted
  On 5/31/2023 at 9:10 PM, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Almost everything gets run through electronic system today and likely this was an automatic trigger.

At this point he can just be honest and contrite and hope for the best. Could be as little as warning or redoing the assignment or taking zero on that particular one.  All depends on how bad it was and if this was his first instance of it.

From the Student Contact guide:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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I recommend the approach from @MonkeyDoughnut with a bit of a twist.

Schedule an appointment with the professor to understand where he stands.  If he is strident that BIL is a serial cheater and should be expelled and prosecuted, he should walk out, say “Thank you,” and contact an attorney that specializes in these things (they exist).  If the prof seems reasonable, he can talk it through with him.  See what his options are, etc.

The university holds all of the power here, so you have to proceed with appropriate caution.  The punishments (if found guilty - sounds like that would happen) range from hand slap to point deductions to assignment failure to class failure to expulsion to revocation of degree.  

If the professor seems reasonable, a simple question would be “If I knew this was wrong, would I have done something that was so obviously in violation of the rules?”  The counter might be, “you signed off on the code of conduct, right?”  And a response would be, “Yes.  Just like we all read every line of the terms of service of every piece of software we’ve every purchased.”

Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 12:56 AM, TwiceHorn said:
That's a hell of a deal.  I'm very surprised you can take the same course twice, once p/f and once for a grade.
I know they have been trying decrease years spent getting a degree, banning this would seem like a no brainer.
Posted (edited)

 

  On 5/31/2023 at 7:36 PM, choripan said:

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride

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Is this your bil?

image.gif.828665bd11eb30dc40ebfe4a923735b9.gif
 

ETA self plagiarism is bullshit. I turned in identical papers in different courses on more than one occasion. Two professors even asked to keep a copy of the same paper for their teaching files. If the material being taught is identical and the topic for the paper is identical wtf would you need to change anything?

 

If it happened how he says that prof is an asshole. Sounds like he needs to figure out whose ass to kiss and get to it

Edited by Sawbonz
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Posted (edited)
  On 5/31/2023 at 9:10 PM, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Almost everything gets run through electronic system today and likely this was an automatic trigger.

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100% this. what he should have done, taken his old paper - translate it to french, then arabic, then chinese, then german, then english, then touch up

 

the software is automatic on submitted work, i believe. blackboard or something like that 

Edited by tx 3 putt
Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 2:51 AM, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Most of the course syllabus that I’ve seen for my son’s classes specifically state in the instructions for the papers that they must be original and can’t have been used for any other class.

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I'm pretty sure, they scan your work against work submitted throughout the system. 

Posted

Although I can see self-plagiarism as being an issue, I don't think it does or should carry the same kind of penalties as more blatant plagiarism.

Seems to me about the maximum penalty should be no credit for the assignment and maybe double-secret probation for any other academic dishonesty issues.

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Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 2:51 AM, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Most of the course syllabus that I’ve seen for my son’s classes specifically state in the instructions for the papers that they must be original and can’t have been used for any other class.

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Self-plagiarism is a valuable practice in life. It kind of sucks that it’s discouraged in school. 

Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 3:53 PM, Doc Daneeka said:

Self-plagiarism is a valuable practice in life. It kind of sucks that it’s discouraged in school. 

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I think I need to start telling job applicants that it looks like they sent their resume to other companies as well as ours and that self-plagiarism is frowned upon in these parts.

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Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 5:09 PM, Bevo said:
I think I need to start telling job applicants that it looks like they sent their resume to other companies as well as ours and that self-plagiarism is frowned upon in these parts.
I see here that you applied here a few years ago and used the same resume save the updated work history. Shame!
Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 5:09 PM, Bevo said:

I think I need to start telling job applicants that it looks like they sent their resume to other companies as well as ours and that self-plagiarism is frowned upon in these parts.

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And I definitely should have re-coded all my libraries, objects, functions, etc. from scratch for each job. 

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Posted (edited)
  On 6/1/2023 at 1:48 AM, boilerhorn said:

If the professor seems reasonable, a simple question would be “If I knew this was wrong, would I have done something that was so obviously in violation of the rules?”  

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George Costanza Seinfeld GIF

Edited by Paper_jam
Posted

I'd play dumb. 

"What do you mean it's the same class?

You're telling me that your system allows for students to register for classes they've already received credit for? Why is that even an option? Who designed this system? Let's haul that guy in here. I just assumed this was the Level II version of the first class. Yeah, I did think it was weird that all the assignments were the exact same, but we all know the professor here, and I don't think one of us would put something like that past him."

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Posted

Ha. Thanks everyone (and to those that DMed).

He will plead ignorance -- that he didn't know he could plagiarize himself  -- but that he should have been aware of the policy, in any case. He will maximize contrition and point out that he has no record of academic dishonesty and it's something he never would have done had he known it was wrong, and from now on he'll work to be aware of all applicable rules and regs.

Guessing he gets something like a zero for the assignment, some sort of wrist slap, maybe has to write an apology letter or a paper on academic integrity or so on. Fingers crossed it's that easy.

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Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 2:37 AM, Sawbonz said:

ETA self plagiarism is bullshit.  If the material being taught is identical and the topic for the paper is identical wtf would you need to change anything?

Expand  

So much this. It's your work. This policy is fucking garbage.

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Posted (edited)
  On 6/2/2023 at 12:12 AM, StassneyHorn said:

Ask the professor if they plagiarized another professor's question?

Expand  

Well, that is different but the professor did self-plagiarize from one semester to the next.

Edited by Bevo
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Posted

@choripan please elaborate, if you can, on why he took the same class two semesters in a row.  That seems odd, especially for someone who is just going back to finish a degree (assume he is trying be as efficient as possible). 

Seems like a system that sets students up for failure.  Maybe they don't anticipate that people will take the same class twice if passed the first time.

Hope it works out for him with minimal penalty.

Posted

If the professer wants a different answer then he should ask a different question.  Total BS.  

I always felt rail-roaded by liberal arts professors.  A bunch of subjective BS.  Engineering made sense because there is an actual answer.  Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

What kind of class is it?

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Posted
  On 6/1/2023 at 12:48 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Although I can see self-plagiarism as being an issue, I don't think it does or should carry the same kind of penalties as more blatant plagiarism.

Seems to me about the maximum penalty should be no credit for the assignment and maybe double-secret probation for any other academic dishonesty issues.

Expand  

I really don’t understand how this is an issue. If you are asked to write a paper on the same issue in more than one class, why should your POV/answer have to change? What if you feel like you absolutely cannot improve on it? You have to make it worse?

Now, with it being the same class…I didn’t even know you could get credit for the same class twice. That seems to be an administrative oversight for allowing it and not expecting the same outcome from every student. Also, what if you failed the class the first time, but you’d gotten a perfect grade on that one specific paper? Can you not use it again when attempting to pass the class on your second attempt? 
 

Feels to me like there’s either more to the story, or somebody is confused on what occurred. Doubt there’s anything more than possibly not receiving double credits for the class.

Posted
  On 6/3/2023 at 5:29 PM, Elvis said:

Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

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They didn't make English majors take ANY math or science classes? 

Posted
  On 6/3/2023 at 6:34 PM, ztejas said:

They didn't make English majors take ANY math or science classes? 

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Not the ones I was taking.  They didn't have to compete with me, but I had to compete with them on their turf.

Posted
  On 6/3/2023 at 8:20 PM, Elvis said:

Not the ones I was taking.  They didn't have to compete with me, but I had to compete with them on their turf.

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Is it because you didn't have to take intro math classes but they still had to take intro English? Or were you taking hard English classes for some reason?

I'm just curious. You went to college probably 15 or so years before I did and I know they move graduation requirements and curriculums around all the time. 

Posted
  On 6/3/2023 at 5:29 PM, Elvis said:

Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

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I don’t think I had to take any “English” classes beyond sophomore literature. As for Composition, or whatever, I was familiar enough with the language to get an A regardless of whatever English majors may have been in there. 

On the flip side, some of my most enjoyable times in class were when sociology or psychology majors were whining that I wrecked their curve while filling out my humanities electives requirements. 

It would be kind of funny to see “English for science majors” the way they have math divided into sciency math and liberal arts math, though. 

Posted
  On 6/4/2023 at 1:33 AM, Doc Daneeka said:

I don’t think I had to take any “English” classes beyond sophomore literature. As for Composition, or whatever, I was familiar enough with the language to get an A regardless of whatever English majors may have been in there. 

On the flip side, some of my most enjoyable times in class were when sociology or psychology majors were whining that I wrecked their curve while filling out my humanities electives requirements. 

It would be kind of funny to see “English for science majors” the way they have math divided into sciency math and liberal arts math, though. 

Expand  

Tool 403K &L.  Wanted nothing to do with 408C & D.

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Posted (edited)
  On 6/3/2023 at 6:34 PM, ztejas said:

They didn't make English majors take ANY math or science classes? 

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Edit: NM. Doc hit the same response earlier.

Edited by slorch
Posted (edited)
  On 6/3/2023 at 5:29 PM, Elvis said:

If the professer wants a different answer then he should ask a different question.  Total BS.  

I always felt rail-roaded by liberal arts professors.  A bunch of subjective BS.  Engineering made sense because there is an actual answer.  Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

What kind of class is it?

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I did not have that feeling, made all As in my liberal arts classes (except History of Rock N Roll, goddammit).  Then I got to law school  . . . .  My biggest problem with liberal arts type things wasn't any subjectivity, but rote memorization.  I simply refused to flat memorize stuff for a couple of semesters, and that's a necessity in law school.  We didn't have to memorize any formulae in engineering school, you just had to know how to use it (got cheat sheets and I found that if you did know how to use it, you memorized it anyway).

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
  On 6/3/2023 at 8:57 PM, ztejas said:

Is it because you didn't have to take intro math classes but they still had to take intro English? Or were you taking hard English classes for some reason?

I'm just curious. You went to college probably 15 or so years before I did and I know they move graduation requirements and curriculums around all the time. 

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When I was in school, getting to be a pretty good while ago, liberal arts majors only needed to take Trig and Elementary Analysis to graduate.  And that was if they didn't either a) take it in hs (geometry was the highest required in Texas at the time) or b) place out of it via score on the math SAT Achievement Test.

They did have to take six hours of natural science.  But for that, they had this "qualitative physics and chemistry" that had no math at all, geology (good class, I took that one), astrononomy, and meteorology (Herr Kolschmeider made that an hilarious mistake for many).

I thought that was a sad state of affairs.

Engineers didn't have to take any language, though.  I had three years of credit for Spanish in hs, so I felt educated.

Posted (edited)

Mid ‘00s a liberal arts degree required…. 12-15 hours of natural science with 6 of them in the same one? Something like that, I know that biology was where I fulfilled the “multiple classes in the same discipline” requirement but I also took some computer science and calculus.

 

I don’t get the “rote memorization” part of liberal arts either. Art history, sure (hard fucking class to get a good grade in). Maybe for some lower level stuff there were tests with questions about dates and shit that mattered? But most classes that I can think of the bulk of the grade was writing based (either in a blue book or a paper you turned in for a grade) and the evaluation was based on comprehension, critical analysis, ability to write persuasively, etc. In that context, part of completing the course is doing the assignment and if you recycled something you wrote for something else, you didn’t do it even if it meets the requirements.

 

*edit* maybe it was only 9 hours of science, I think calculus ended up being an elective for me and I may have only taken the one cs course

Edited by Celery Man
Posted
  On 6/3/2023 at 5:29 PM, Elvis said:

take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me

Expand  

What upper division English courses were required for your degree?

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