Academic Misconduct Hearing at UT ... severity?

[choripan 790]

My brother-in-law is set to graduate from UT after the fall semester. Best I can gather, we took a class pass/fail in the fall and passed it, then re-took the class this spring semester for credit. One of the assignments was essentially the same between semesters and he may have reused portions of his work from the previous semester.  It wasn't a midterm or a final or anything, but a garden variety assignment.

He received a letter from the Office of the Dean of Students alleging a violation of UT's Institutional Rules. Specifically, "11-402(a)(7)(c), [sic: it's actually 11-401(a)(7)9c)] about "self-plagiarism," which reads as follows:

Plagiarism [is]...when a person submits essentially the same work for two assignments without the permission of the Faculty Member. 

In any case, he's freaking out since he only has one semester left. 

Anyone have any experience here? Is this the type of thing where he goes hat-in-hand to the Dean and gets some sort of training under the "Restorative Practices Alternative?" Perhaps he just gets a zero for the assignment or a lowered grade for the class? Is academic probation in play? How about expulsion? I get the sense that the violation is minor enough that a slap on the wrist is warranted, but if his graduation is threatened, I think it makes sense to lawyer up.

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride/see-it-throughness and his love for UT. So that pride part would really be upended if he couldn't graduate.

Any background on likely outcomes, experiences you've had, or guidance in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Bevo 13577]

13 minutes ago, choripan said:

My brother-in-law is set to graduate from UT after the fall semester. Best I can gather, we took a class pass/fail in the fall and passed it, then re-took the class this spring semester for credit. One of the assignments was essentially the same between semesters and he may have reused portions of his work from the previous semester.  It wasn't a midterm or a final or anything, but a garden variety assignment.

He received a letter from the Office of the Dean of Students alleging a violation of UT's Institutional Rules. Specifically, "11-402(a)(7)(c), [sic: it's actually 11-401(a)(7)9c)] about "self-plagiarism," which reads as follows:

Plagiarism [is]...when a person submits essentially the same work for two assignments without the permission of the Faculty Member. 

In any case, he's freaking out since he only has one semester left. 

Anyone have any experience here? Is this the type of thing where he goes hat-in-hand to the Dean and gets some sort of training under the "Restorative Practices Alternative?" Perhaps he just gets a zero for the assignment or a lowered grade for the class? Is academic probation in play? How about expulsion? I get the sense that the violation is minor enough that a slap on the wrist is warranted, but if his graduation is threatened, I think it makes sense to lawyer up.

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride/see-it-throughness and his love for UT. So that pride part would really be upended if he couldn't graduate.

Any background on likely outcomes, experiences you've had, or guidance in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

It seems like he should speak first with the professor. It seems kind of chickenshit for the professor to go straight to the Dean. He should probably record the conversation though, because it sounds like the professor isn't upfront. OTOH, your BIL might be FOS.

[deadshank 24653]

1 hour ago, choripan said:

My brother-in-law is set to graduate from UT after the fall semester. Best I can gather, we took a class pass/fail in the fall and passed it, then re-took the class this spring semester for credit. One of the assignments was essentially the same between semesters and he may have reused portions of his work from the previous semester.  It wasn't a midterm or a final or anything, but a garden variety assignment.

He received a letter from the Office of the Dean of Students alleging a violation of UT's Institutional Rules. Specifically, "11-402(a)(7)(c), [sic: it's actually 11-401(a)(7)9c)] about "self-plagiarism," which reads as follows:

Plagiarism [is]...when a person submits essentially the same work for two assignments without the permission of the Faculty Member. 

In any case, he's freaking out since he only has one semester left. 

Anyone have any experience here? Is this the type of thing where he goes hat-in-hand to the Dean and gets some sort of training under the "Restorative Practices Alternative?" Perhaps he just gets a zero for the assignment or a lowered grade for the class? Is academic probation in play? How about expulsion? I get the sense that the violation is minor enough that a slap on the wrist is warranted, but if his graduation is threatened, I think it makes sense to lawyer up.

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride/see-it-throughness and his love for UT. So that pride part would really be upended if he couldn't graduate.

Any background on likely outcomes, experiences you've had, or guidance in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

In a nut shell, home chicken learned something the first time around (paid attention) and then got the same questions asked of him at a later date and answered the same way.

Isn't that what we are trying to achieve here?  Was he supposed to come up with the correct answers to the same assignment through some circuitous route just to show he could do it that way? 

If in 2022  I'm asked what is 2 + 2 and I answer 4 I'm good to go.  A year later I'm asked the same question and have the same answer then I'm a self-plagiarizing cheat?

Sounds like the professors got what they asked for but did not particularly like that and started bleeding out their behinds over the whole affair.

Or the professor is his wife and she's just mad that he's not doing math her way.

[Gene Parmesan 4007]

How brazen was his attempt to recycle the paper.  Did he just change the date?

[MonkeyDoughnut 10240]

Almost everything gets run through electronic system today and likely this was an automatic trigger.

At this point he can just be honest and contrite and hope for the best. Could be as little as warning or redoing the assignment or taking zero on that particular one.  All depends on how bad it was and if this was his first instance of it.

From the Student Contact guide:

Spoiler

Sec. 11–701. Authorized Disciplinary Sanctions

1. The Dean of Students, under Subchapter 11–500, or the Hearing Officer or the majority of a Student Conduct Panel, after a hearing under Subchapter 11–600, may impose one or more of the following sanctions for violation of this Chapter:
   1. written warning;
   2. disciplinary probation;
   3. academic integrity probation;
   4. withholding of grades, official transcript, and/or degree;
   5. bar against readmission, bar against enrollment, withdrawal from the University or from a period of enrollment, and/or drop from one or more classes;
   6. restitution or reimbursement for damage to or misappropriation of University or University of Texas System property;
   7. suspension of rights and privileges, including, but not limited to, participation in athletic or extracurricular activities and residing in or entering University housing;
   8. an academic sanction including, but not limited to, a failing grade for a test, an assignment, or a class, cancellation of all or part of previously earned course credit;
   9. denial of degree;
   10. deferred suspension;
   11. suspension from the University for a specified period of time;
   12. expulsion (permanent separation from the University);
   13. other sanction or sanctions as deemed appropriate under the circumstances.
2. The Dean of Students, the Hearing Officer, or a Student Conduct Panel may consider mitigating and/or aggravating factors, including but not limited to a student’s prior conduct, when determining proportionate sanctions in response to the finding of a violation.
3. If a violation of the University’s Institutional Rules, other than Sec. 11-402(a)(11) or Sec. 13-204 of the Institutional Rules, is committed because of the race, color, religion, national origin, age, disability, citizenship, veteran status, of a student or students directly harmed by the violation, such a discriminatory purpose will be treated as an aggravating factor for the purpose of determining the appropriate sanction or sanctions under subsection 11-701(a). For a complete set of cross-references to all regulation of harassment on the campus, see subsection 13-204 (covering verbal harassment) of the Institutional Rules and 3-3031(V)(D) (covering harassment based on gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression) of the Handbook of Operating Procedures.

Sec. 11–702. Authorized Academic Sanctions

1. When a student signs a Faculty Disposition, in accordance with Sec. 11–505, for conduct constituting academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11–401, the Faculty Member or the academic dean responsible for the course may impose one or more of the following grade-related sanctions:
   1. no credit or reduced credit for the graded assessment in question;
   2. retaking of examination or resubmission of assignment;
   3. failing or reduced final grade for the course.
2. When a student signs an Administrative Disposition with the Dean of Students, in accordance with Sec. 11–504, or is determined, after a hearing in accordance with subchapter 11–600, to be responsible for academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11–401, the Dean of Students, the Hearing Officer, or a majority of the Student Conduct Panel may impose any of the grade-related sanctions listed in Sec. 11–702(a) and impose any of the general sanctions listed in Sec. 11–701 or Sec. 11-703.
3. If a student resolves an allegation of academic misconduct through a Faculty Disposition, in accordance with Sec. 11–505, for conduct constituting academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11–401, the student may be assigned any of the sanctions listed in Sec. 11-701 or Sec. 11-703 by the Dean of Students, in addition to the grade-related sanctions assigned by the Faculty Member.
4. If a student is found responsible for academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11-401, and in accordance with Sec. 11-504, Sec. 11-505, or after a hearing in accordance with Subchapter 11-600, and is also enrolled in an academic program requiring (1) a supplemental application in conjunction with application to UT Austin, (2) a minimum grade point average to matriculate through the program as defined in the Undergraduate Catalog, and (3) a signed commitment to adhere to a program-specific honor code and/or code of conduct, removal from the program will be considered by the Dean of Students as a potential sanction.

 

[South Austin 52511]

I smell double secret probation.

[TwiceHorn 31483]

That's a hell of a deal.  I'm very surprised you can take the same course twice, once p/f and once for a grade.

[Updawg 2266]

What’s the point of taking it twice other than to bump up your gpa or something. Seems weird it’s allowed. Unless he failed it the first time and is a needed class

[boilerhorn 1381]

4 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Almost everything gets run through electronic system today and likely this was an automatic trigger.

At this point he can just be honest and contrite and hope for the best. Could be as little as warning or redoing the assignment or taking zero on that particular one.  All depends on how bad it was and if this was his first instance of it.

From the Student Contact guide:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sec. 11–701. Authorized Disciplinary Sanctions

1. The Dean of Students, under Subchapter 11–500, or the Hearing Officer or the majority of a Student Conduct Panel, after a hearing under Subchapter 11–600, may impose one or more of the following sanctions for violation of this Chapter:
   1. written warning;
   2. disciplinary probation;
   3. academic integrity probation;
   4. withholding of grades, official transcript, and/or degree;
   5. bar against readmission, bar against enrollment, withdrawal from the University or from a period of enrollment, and/or drop from one or more classes;
   6. restitution or reimbursement for damage to or misappropriation of University or University of Texas System property;
   7. suspension of rights and privileges, including, but not limited to, participation in athletic or extracurricular activities and residing in or entering University housing;
   8. an academic sanction including, but not limited to, a failing grade for a test, an assignment, or a class, cancellation of all or part of previously earned course credit;
   9. denial of degree;
   10. deferred suspension;
   11. suspension from the University for a specified period of time;
   12. expulsion (permanent separation from the University);
   13. other sanction or sanctions as deemed appropriate under the circumstances.
2. The Dean of Students, the Hearing Officer, or a Student Conduct Panel may consider mitigating and/or aggravating factors, including but not limited to a student’s prior conduct, when determining proportionate sanctions in response to the finding of a violation.
3. If a violation of the University’s Institutional Rules, other than Sec. 11-402(a)(11) or Sec. 13-204 of the Institutional Rules, is committed because of the race, color, religion, national origin, age, disability, citizenship, veteran status, of a student or students directly harmed by the violation, such a discriminatory purpose will be treated as an aggravating factor for the purpose of determining the appropriate sanction or sanctions under subsection 11-701(a). For a complete set of cross-references to all regulation of harassment on the campus, see subsection 13-204 (covering verbal harassment) of the Institutional Rules and 3-3031(V)(D) (covering harassment based on gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression) of the Handbook of Operating Procedures.

Sec. 11–702. Authorized Academic Sanctions

1. When a student signs a Faculty Disposition, in accordance with Sec. 11–505, for conduct constituting academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11–401, the Faculty Member or the academic dean responsible for the course may impose one or more of the following grade-related sanctions:
   1. no credit or reduced credit for the graded assessment in question;
   2. retaking of examination or resubmission of assignment;
   3. failing or reduced final grade for the course.
2. When a student signs an Administrative Disposition with the Dean of Students, in accordance with Sec. 11–504, or is determined, after a hearing in accordance with subchapter 11–600, to be responsible for academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11–401, the Dean of Students, the Hearing Officer, or a majority of the Student Conduct Panel may impose any of the grade-related sanctions listed in Sec. 11–702(a) and impose any of the general sanctions listed in Sec. 11–701 or Sec. 11-703.
3. If a student resolves an allegation of academic misconduct through a Faculty Disposition, in accordance with Sec. 11–505, for conduct constituting academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11–401, the student may be assigned any of the sanctions listed in Sec. 11-701 or Sec. 11-703 by the Dean of Students, in addition to the grade-related sanctions assigned by the Faculty Member.
4. If a student is found responsible for academic misconduct, as defined in Sec. 11-401, and in accordance with Sec. 11-504, Sec. 11-505, or after a hearing in accordance with Subchapter 11-600, and is also enrolled in an academic program requiring (1) a supplemental application in conjunction with application to UT Austin, (2) a minimum grade point average to matriculate through the program as defined in the Undergraduate Catalog, and (3) a signed commitment to adhere to a program-specific honor code and/or code of conduct, removal from the program will be considered by the Dean of Students as a potential sanction.

 

 

I recommend the approach from @MonkeyDoughnut with a bit of a twist.

Schedule an appointment with the professor to understand where he stands.  If he is strident that BIL is a serial cheater and should be expelled and prosecuted, he should walk out, say “Thank you,” and contact an attorney that specializes in these things (they exist).  If the prof seems reasonable, he can talk it through with him.  See what his options are, etc.

The university holds all of the power here, so you have to proceed with appropriate caution.  The punishments (if found guilty - sounds like that would happen) range from hand slap to point deductions to assignment failure to class failure to expulsion to revocation of degree.  

If the professor seems reasonable, a simple question would be “If I knew this was wrong, would I have done something that was so obviously in violation of the rules?”  The counter might be, “you signed off on the code of conduct, right?”  And a response would be, “Yes.  Just like we all read every line of the terms of service of every piece of software we’ve every purchased.”

[Dr Fear 1268]

That's a hell of a deal.  I'm very surprised you can take the same course twice, once p/f and once for a grade.

I know they have been trying decrease years spent getting a degree, banning this would seem like a no brainer.

[Sawbonz 27565]

 

7 hours ago, choripan said:

FWIW, he is an older student who left school and started a successful business and who went back to UT to finish his degree out of pride

Is this your bil?

 

ETA self plagiarism is bullshit. I turned in identical papers in different courses on more than one occasion. Two professors even asked to keep a copy of the same paper for their teaching files. If the material being taught is identical and the topic for the paper is identical wtf would you need to change anything?

 

If it happened how he says that prof is an asshole. Sounds like he needs to figure out whose ass to kiss and get to it

Edited June 1, 2023 by Sawbonz

[tx 3 putt 76972]

5 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Almost everything gets run through electronic system today and likely this was an automatic trigger.

 

100% this. what he should have done, taken his old paper - translate it to french, then arabic, then chinese, then german, then english, then touch up

 

the software is automatic on submitted work, i believe. blackboard or something like that 

Edited June 1, 2023 by tx 3 putt

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

Most of the course syllabus that I’ve seen for my son’s classes specifically state in the instructions for the papers that they must be original and can’t have been used for any other class.

[tx 3 putt 76972]

2 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Most of the course syllabus that I’ve seen for my son’s classes specifically state in the instructions for the papers that they must be original and can’t have been used for any other class.

 

I'm pretty sure, they scan your work against work submitted throughout the system. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10240]

Yeah, my guess is professor has nothing specifically to do with this, everything happened automatically via turn in system.

[TwiceHorn 31483]

Although I can see self-plagiarism as being an issue, I don't think it does or should carry the same kind of penalties as more blatant plagiarism.

Seems to me about the maximum penalty should be no credit for the assignment and maybe double-secret probation for any other academic dishonesty issues.

[Revolution512 1487]

10 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Most of the course syllabus that I’ve seen for my son’s classes specifically state in the instructions for the papers that they must be original and can’t have been used for any other class.

You look at your kids class Syllabus? Wtf

[Bevo 13577]

11 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

You look at your kids class Syllabus? Wtf

I only look at his girlfriends.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

13 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

Most of the course syllabus that I’ve seen for my son’s classes specifically state in the instructions for the papers that they must be original and can’t have been used for any other class.

Self-plagiarism is a valuable practice in life. It kind of sucks that it’s discouraged in school. 

[Bevo 13577]

1 hour ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Self-plagiarism is a valuable practice in life. It kind of sucks that it’s discouraged in school. 

I think I need to start telling job applicants that it looks like they sent their resume to other companies as well as ours and that self-plagiarism is frowned upon in these parts.

[Quagmire 2147]

Fuck the professors wife

[Dr Fear 1268]

I think I need to start telling job applicants that it looks like they sent their resume to other companies as well as ours and that self-plagiarism is frowned upon in these parts.

I see here that you applied here a few years ago and used the same resume save the updated work history. Shame!

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

20 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I think I need to start telling job applicants that it looks like they sent their resume to other companies as well as ours and that self-plagiarism is frowned upon in these parts.

And I definitely should have re-coded all my libraries, objects, functions, etc. from scratch for each job. 

[Incredulity 11675]

 

The brunette behind Thornton has always caught my eye.

[Jerry Callo 8703]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

 

The brunette behind Thornton has always caught my eye.

He does seem like a nice, clean cut guy.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

So if your employment ad said resumes submitted must have a picture in front of a tree and they sent you a resume without a picture you would still hire them?

[Paper_jam 831]

18 hours ago, boilerhorn said:

If the professor seems reasonable, a simple question would be “If I knew this was wrong, would I have done something that was so obviously in violation of the rules?”  

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Paper_jam

[Prepuce of Doom 21074]

2 minutes ago, Paper_jam said:

https://i.imgur.com/6yQL9dg.jpg[/img]

 

Username checks out. 

[StassneyHorn 6577]

Ask the professor if they plagiarized another professor's question?

[Foosters 17857]

I'd play dumb. 

"What do you mean it's the same class?

You're telling me that your system allows for students to register for classes they've already received credit for? Why is that even an option? Who designed this system? Let's haul that guy in here. I just assumed this was the Level II version of the first class. Yeah, I did think it was weird that all the assignments were the exact same, but we all know the professor here, and I don't think one of us would put something like that past him."

[choripan 790]

Ha. Thanks everyone (and to those that DMed).

He will plead ignorance -- that he didn't know he could plagiarize himself  -- but that he should have been aware of the policy, in any case. He will maximize contrition and point out that he has no record of academic dishonesty and it's something he never would have done had he known it was wrong, and from now on he'll work to be aware of all applicable rules and regs.

Guessing he gets something like a zero for the assignment, some sort of wrist slap, maybe has to write an apology letter or a paper on academic integrity or so on. Fingers crossed it's that easy.

[Incredulity 11675]

His only hope is to beat the shit out of someone on day one.  No direct eye contact in the yard too, but keep his head up.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Incredulity

[Armybrat 40850]

9 hours ago, Quagmire said:

Fuck the professors wife

Go higher…..

 

[Sam Lin 3559]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:37 AM, Sawbonz said:

ETA self plagiarism is bullshit.  If the material being taught is identical and the topic for the paper is identical wtf would you need to change anything?

So much this. It's your work. This policy is fucking garbage.

[Bevo 13577]

7 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

Ask the professor if they plagiarized another professor's question?

Well, that is different but the professor did self-plagiarize from one semester to the next.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Bevo

[orange dream 1254]

@choripan please elaborate, if you can, on why he took the same class two semesters in a row.  That seems odd, especially for someone who is just going back to finish a degree (assume he is trying be as efficient as possible). 

Seems like a system that sets students up for failure.  Maybe they don't anticipate that people will take the same class twice if passed the first time.

Hope it works out for him with minimal penalty.

[Elvis 3371]

If the professer wants a different answer then he should ask a different question.  Total BS.  

I always felt rail-roaded by liberal arts professors.  A bunch of subjective BS.  Engineering made sense because there is an actual answer.  Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

What kind of class is it?

[SquishMitten 10408]

On 6/1/2023 at 7:48 AM, TwiceHorn said:

Although I can see self-plagiarism as being an issue, I don't think it does or should carry the same kind of penalties as more blatant plagiarism.

Seems to me about the maximum penalty should be no credit for the assignment and maybe double-secret probation for any other academic dishonesty issues.

I really don’t understand how this is an issue. If you are asked to write a paper on the same issue in more than one class, why should your POV/answer have to change? What if you feel like you absolutely cannot improve on it? You have to make it worse?

Now, with it being the same class…I didn’t even know you could get credit for the same class twice. That seems to be an administrative oversight for allowing it and not expecting the same outcome from every student. Also, what if you failed the class the first time, but you’d gotten a perfect grade on that one specific paper? Can you not use it again when attempting to pass the class on your second attempt? 
 

Feels to me like there’s either more to the story, or somebody is confused on what occurred. Doubt there’s anything more than possibly not receiving double credits for the class.

[ztejas 43454]

1 hour ago, Elvis said:

Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

They didn't make English majors take ANY math or science classes? 

[Elvis 3371]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

They didn't make English majors take ANY math or science classes? 

Not the ones I was taking.  They didn't have to compete with me, but I had to compete with them on their turf.

[ztejas 43454]

35 minutes ago, Elvis said:

Not the ones I was taking.  They didn't have to compete with me, but I had to compete with them on their turf.

Is it because you didn't have to take intro math classes but they still had to take intro English? Or were you taking hard English classes for some reason?

I'm just curious. You went to college probably 15 or so years before I did and I know they move graduation requirements and curriculums around all the time. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

7 hours ago, Elvis said:

Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

I don’t think I had to take any “English” classes beyond sophomore literature. As for Composition, or whatever, I was familiar enough with the language to get an A regardless of whatever English majors may have been in there. 

On the flip side, some of my most enjoyable times in class were when sociology or psychology majors were whining that I wrecked their curve while filling out my humanities electives requirements. 

It would be kind of funny to see “English for science majors” the way they have math divided into sciency math and liberal arts math, though. 

[tx 3 putt 76972]

Goto the pitchforks and torches !

[conVINCEd 21469]

11 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I don’t think I had to take any “English” classes beyond sophomore literature. As for Composition, or whatever, I was familiar enough with the language to get an A regardless of whatever English majors may have been in there. 

On the flip side, some of my most enjoyable times in class were when sociology or psychology majors were whining that I wrecked their curve while filling out my humanities electives requirements. 

It would be kind of funny to see “English for science majors” the way they have math divided into sciency math and liberal arts math, though. 

Tool 403K &L.  Wanted nothing to do with 408C & D.

[Elvis 3371]

Technical writing. 
 

one of the guys invented blue tooth. 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, ztejas said:

They didn't make English majors take ANY math or science classes? 

Edit: NM. Doc hit the same response earlier.

Edited June 4, 2023 by slorch

[TwiceHorn 31483]

18 hours ago, Elvis said:

If the professer wants a different answer then he should ask a different question.  Total BS.  

I always felt rail-roaded by liberal arts professors.  A bunch of subjective BS.  Engineering made sense because there is an actual answer.  Just a rant, but I never thought it was fair I had to take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me.

What kind of class is it?

I did not have that feeling, made all As in my liberal arts classes (except History of Rock N Roll, goddammit).  Then I got to law school  . . . .  My biggest problem with liberal arts type things wasn't any subjectivity, but rote memorization.  I simply refused to flat memorize stuff for a couple of semesters, and that's a necessity in law school.  We didn't have to memorize any formulae in engineering school, you just had to know how to use it (got cheat sheets and I found that if you did know how to use it, you memorized it anyway).

Edited June 4, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31483]

14 hours ago, ztejas said:

Is it because you didn't have to take intro math classes but they still had to take intro English? Or were you taking hard English classes for some reason?

I'm just curious. You went to college probably 15 or so years before I did and I know they move graduation requirements and curriculums around all the time. 

When I was in school, getting to be a pretty good while ago, liberal arts majors only needed to take Trig and Elementary Analysis to graduate.  And that was if they didn't either a) take it in hs (geometry was the highest required in Texas at the time) or b) place out of it via score on the math SAT Achievement Test.

They did have to take six hours of natural science.  But for that, they had this "qualitative physics and chemistry" that had no math at all, geology (good class, I took that one), astrononomy, and meteorology (Herr Kolschmeider made that an hilarious mistake for many).

I thought that was a sad state of affairs.

Engineers didn't have to take any language, though.  I had three years of credit for Spanish in hs, so I felt educated.

[Celery Man 20959]

Mid ‘00s a liberal arts degree required…. 12-15 hours of natural science with 6 of them in the same one? Something like that, I know that biology was where I fulfilled the “multiple classes in the same discipline” requirement but I also took some computer science and calculus.

 

I don’t get the “rote memorization” part of liberal arts either. Art history, sure (hard fucking class to get a good grade in). Maybe for some lower level stuff there were tests with questions about dates and shit that mattered? But most classes that I can think of the bulk of the grade was writing based (either in a blue book or a paper you turned in for a grade) and the evaluation was based on comprehension, critical analysis, ability to write persuasively, etc. In that context, part of completing the course is doing the assignment and if you recycled something you wrote for something else, you didn’t do it even if it meets the requirements.

 

*edit* maybe it was only 9 hours of science, I think calculus ended up being an elective for me and I may have only taken the one cs course

Edited June 4, 2023 by Celery Man

[Sawbonz 27565]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:29 PM, Elvis said:

take English classes with English majors, but they sure as hell didn't take any math or science classes with me

What upper division English courses were required for your degree?