June 6th....

[InkaUtexas 25950]

I plan to watch the Longest Day, talk to my dad about my grandfather who jumped in, and toast those braves souls from Canada, France, Poland, the UK and the US. 

And this made me laugh. 

 

[InkaUtexas 25950]

100 year old vet went back. Worth the listen if you enjoy history. 

 

[YGIFS 19450]

Happy Birthday, Lucia Mollin.  Erwin slips away to surprise you for your birthday, quite fortunate for the Allies.  And so begins the Day of Days.  The largest event in human history.

Utah.  Omaha.  Gold.  Juno.  Sword.  Overlord.  

It is 13:30p there now.  General Bradley receives confirmation they are beyond the landings of Omaha.  Caen is receiving aerial bombardment to all fixed Axis positions.  Sword will be overtaken soon.  The Day of Days.  

 

[YGIFS 19450]

It is 1600hrs in Normandy.  The 21st Panzer Division launches a massive counter-assault at Sword.  The British repel it over the course of the next 5 hours.  The beach is eventually held and the distance between Juno and Sword is established as a foothold.  The coordination of all 5 sectors has begun.  Armor will begin arriving on the sand and our world will never be the same again.  

[Born Burnt 6178]

[Macanudo 12979]

[Not that Bob 738]

9 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

100 year old vet went back. Worth the listen if you enjoy history. 

 

I believe you intended to say, watch this if you want to weep on a Tuesday morning. 

[BabaYaga 15299]

My FIL, his father was there.  We have his medals and records in a shadow box.  Among his many medals he has two purple hearts (enemy marksmanship badges) from the campaign - he has shot through the shoulder and in the leg.  Neither took him completely out of the fight.  

In terms of the obfuscation and deception of Neptune, I can't recommend enough "Bodyguard of Lies".  It's a long read, but worth every page.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

I can't believe more of them didn't drown getting out of the boats lugging those giant brass balls around. 

[YGIFS 19450]

Some documentary I saw years ago was just about the logistical launch from southern England and the disinformation campaign they embarked upon (fake tanks, sorties going wrong way, etc.).  Some British officer basically jokes "They call us the Allied Expeditionary Force?  It's fucking France.  That's not an expedition.  We'd all been there already before the war.  An Expedition is like Mount Everest, not the bloody Channel."  

I will never fully appreciate nor understand what those men did.  Not even the operation itself.  Think about just the days leading up to it.  How do you sleep the night before so you'll be rested and ready?  How do you sleep 6-8 hours knowing the next day you're going to attempt a beach landing on a 36' boat with only a 30cal and your small arms on a fixed position with year-long entrenched heavy machine gun nests during a fucking tide change, not knowing where the tanks and Luftwaffe are?  Oh wait, the alternative is to leave hours earlier in the middle of night out of a fucking airplane with technology that was at best, sketchy, into who the fuck knows where?  

the other account I always think of today is of a German turret officer.  This was probably 35 years ago.  He said his men were looking at him for orders but he temporarily froze, for an instant.  I wish I could find the clip.  He paused for what he said must have been an eternity for he and his men.  He gazed at the horizon and could not believe what he saw.  For there on the sea before him must have been every ship in existence.  He could not believe that there were that many vessels in all the world.  Moments later, the fight was on, he was captured, and later told the tale of what he could only describe as something they all knew was the most monumental event the world would ever know.  

Edited June 6, 2023 by YGIFS

[BabaYaga 15299]

Let's not forget our Marines - the invasion of Okinawa was a larger in almost every way to Normandy.  Or the initial island invasions such as Peleliu or Tarawa, where the coral atolls forced the Marine's to exit their craft hundreds of yards off the defended coastline, wading through pre-bracketed shores with ZERO cover.  It wasn't until later campaigns that the Japanese figured out that letting them land, establish a beachhead, and them hammer then as we saw on Iwo.

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

The Longest Day is one of my favorite books.  Oral histories can be tricky, as memories fade and change, and self-interest is always an issue.  Ryan did a fantastic job of sorting through all of that and letting the people who were there tell their little pieces of the big story.

One day I would love to tour the invasion area.  Pegasus Bridge, Pointe du Hoc, and Sainte Mère Églese are all places on my bucket list

[InkaUtexas 25950]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Let's not forget our Marines - the invasion of Okinawa was a larger in almost every way to Normandy.  Or the initial island invasions such as Peleliu or Tarawa, where the coral atolls forced the Marine's to exit their craft hundreds of yards off the defended coastline, wading through pre-bracketed shores with ZERO cover.  It wasn't until later campaigns that the Japanese figured out that letting them land, establish a beachhead, and them hammer then as we saw on Iwo.

Will never forget that. I work with a bunch of Marines and respect all the way.

But today is D-Day. 

And the US Army was in every battle in the Pacific. 

[YGIFS 19450]

Good point.  Two uncles who were USMC and a cousin still in Force Recon.  Some of those island hopping campaigns were nearly as massive as Normandy and it was basicall just us with some badass Aussie/Kiwi support.  As I learned more about Overlord and talked to veterans about it, the thing that stood out to them was unlike these bizarre islands in the South Pacific, they were retaking Europe.  A place that all the Brits they served alongside had always lived.  It's like leaving town and arming up to retake your house.  They had to spend all that time, and money, and blood to gear up to go back to a place that should have been fine all along.  

But yeah, the South Pacific.  I think I posted something similar on Memorial Day.  As my Navy father and grandfather used to say...you don't hear as much about what happened on the way to Okinawa as you do with D-Day because the men from the South Pacific were never able to talk about what happened.  It was something nobody had seen before and god willing, something nobody will ever see again.  

 

It is 5:15p in Normany.  Vierville has begun to be liberated and will under allied control by their sunset.  It is roughly around this time, Rommel pulls a Gob Bluth "I've made a huge mistake."  

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Let's not forget our Marines - the invasion of Okinawa was a larger in almost every way to Normandy.  Or the initial island invasions such as Peleliu or Tarawa, where the coral atolls forced the Marine's to exit their craft hundreds of yards off the defended coastline, wading through pre-bracketed shores with ZERO cover.  It wasn't until later campaigns that the Japanese figured out that letting them land, establish a beachhead, and them hammer then as we saw on Iwo.

Two divisions of Marines, including my step grandfather (one of the men for whom I am named), and one Army division landed at Saipan on 15 June 1944.  D-Day got most of the press, so Saipan was overshadowed and is largely forgotten, but it was a tough fight in its own right.  It lead to the taking of Tinian and other islands from which B-29s could fly to bomb the Japanese home islands.  It was an important step in the Pacific War.

[BabaYaga 15299]

I was in Denmark last summer.  We stayed on the beach.  I'd forgotten that the ENTIRE Danish coastline was a part of the Atlantic Wall.  The Army Coastal Battery Hirtshals West are the pictures.  Rommel was there and did regular, personal inspections of the entire region.  Today it's an "open" museum where you can walk all over the area minus a few areas sealed off to recreate the living conditions of the soldiers manning the defenses.

 

[GopherRock 1765]

 

Grandpa GR went ashore later in the day on D Day and sent arty at the krauts from Normandy to the Rhineland. Two Bronze Stars. Came home and never told a soul about anything. We had to read his DD214 to find that out. He's buried out at Fort Snelling National Cemetery.

[BabaYaga 15299]

View from the lighthouse showing how intertwined, deep, and coordinated with mutual support the defenses were.  

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

On 6/6/2023 at 9:18 AM, Scheiss Meister said:

Two divisions of Marines, including my step grandfather (one of the men for whom I am named), and one Army division landed at Saipan on 15 June 1944.  D-Day got most of the press, so Saipan was overshadowed and is largely forgotten, but it was a tough fight in its own right.  It lead to the taking of Tinian and other islands from which B-29s could fly to bomb the Japanese home islands.  It was an important step in the Pacific War.

Good read, unless you were in the Army. The Marines were there first (as usual) and felt the Army was hindering their advance across the island. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by ImissWallyPryor

[BabaYaga 15299]

Stephen Ambrose speaks so often about the ability of the US military to act independently and autonomously in the face of a dynamic battlefield.  This was the overlying message of Saving Private Ryan.  Small units able to operate and make independent decisions.  To drill in, he references the 101st in BOB.  Once on the beach and inland, this was the deciding factor in the success of the invasion.  German troops were unable to react quickly due to their rigid chains of command.

The scene in BOB where Winters and his troops took out the coastal batteries is still (I believe) studied at WestPoint as a textbook assault scripted on the fly in the face of an ever-changing battle space.  

[Brisketexan 105146]

Sigh.  I found something I wrote on D-Day back in 2019.  At the time, I really didn't think that it would be so painful to read today, in light of the landscape in Europe:

Quote

I can't help but think that one of the most important things that D-Day should serve as is a lesson. A reminder of the utter waste of war. A continent devastated for decades. Millions of lives of promise, snuffed out by bullets and bombs. Sons and fathers cut in half before they even got off the boat. And for what? To fight a war born of pointless nationalist stupidity. Born of a weak human desire to blame the other for your ills. Born of ambitions of men in power who weren't worthy to lead a one-man band. The men who waded ashore had a job to do -- clean up a hellish mess. But the lesson of that war -- of all wars -- is for us. Our job is to keep messes like that from happening. To hold our leaders accountable. To refuse to be led down a road that leads to needless conflict, inevitably resulting in suffering and death. When we hear leaders start beating those drums of war, our job is to tell them to turn that crap off. American and German veterans have embraced on the fields that they once covered with each other's blood. Because they are friends and allies. And the truth is, they always should have been. Men walk into kill zones because we ask them to, and because we allow stupid wars to happen. We owe it to them, and to their descendants, to make 1944's D-Day the last D-Day. That's what I take away from D-Day now. And I now worry that it's a lesson that we either never learned, or are forgetting.

Humanity is not very good at learning from its mistakes.

And brave bastards have to clean up the messes.  Like always.

[JOSEYWALES66 1802]

I recently read The Bedford Boys.  Follows one company through D-Day that was comprised of a lot of soldiers from one small town. 

Heartbreaking. 

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Stephen Ambrose speaks so often about the ability of the US military to act independently and autonomously in the face of a dynamic battlefield.  This was the overlying message of Saving Private Ryan.  Small units able to operate and make independent decisions.  To drill in, he references the 101st in BOB.  Once on the beach and inland, this was the deciding factor in the success of the invasion.  German troops were unable to react quickly due to their rigid chains of command.

The scene in BOB where Winters and his troops took out the coastal batteries is still (I believe) studied at WestPoint as a textbook assault scripted on the fly in the face of an ever-changing battle space.  

The Germans were prepared to fight companies, battalions, regiments, and divisions with objectives that could be deduced and anticipated.  They had no answer for small groups of paratroopers from different units who got together and said, "OK.  We don't know where we are, or where our objective is, so until someone gets a handle on the situation, let's just fuck up every German position that we can find."

[Gatorubet 30239]

If you have not yet taken your family to the New Orleans WWII (formerly D-Day) Museum you have failed at life. 

But you can fix that…

[BabaYaga 15299]

1 minute ago, Scheiss Meister said:

The Germans were prepared to fight companies, battalions, regiments, and divisions with objectives that could be deduced and anticipated.  They had no answer for small groups of paratroopers from different units who got together and said, "OK.  We don't know where we are, or where our objective is, so until someone gets a handle on the situation, let's just fuck up every German position that we can find."

They were prepared to fight predetermined outcomes from the top down.  They were masters of this.  Where they struggled were the autonomous, small unit tactics that the US excelled at.  

The irony of the paratrooper landings were their disorganized nature.  So many sticks were scattered to the wind that emergency calls from German units gave the impression that the size/scope was much larger than it actually was.  This made a German response much more difficult.  It really wasn't until the inland hedgerow battles that the Germans were able to mount a coordinated defense.  

[ocugolf 1214]

My grandfather was on Omaha Beach.  He was second in command of his boat coming ashore.  Minute they hop out, the highest command was shot and killed. How my grandfather survived is beyond me.  He never talked about the war until he was about 75.  Then, it was all he wanted to talk about, He passed away about 5 years ago and I would give anything to hear those stories again. After he passed, we were cleaning out a storage locker and there was a tote in the back that had every letter he had written my grandmother and his mother from his deployment.  The amount of courage that generation had is truly astounding.  He was in living hell, and his letters were so upbeat and positive because he didn't want them to worry more about him.  They are now among my most prized possessions.  RIP Dr. Joe, we loved you so much.

[BabaYaga 15299]

2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

If you have not yet taken your family to the New Orleans WWII (formerly D-Day) Museum you have failed at life. 

But you can fix that…

The old Higgins plant - cited by Ike as one of the fundamental advantages that allowed the US to win the war.  Can you imagine the Pacific campaigns without shallow water, flat-bottomed boats modified from the bayous of Louisiana that could make it directly up to the beach?  It changed the entire dynamic of the war.  

[Brisketexan 105146]

14 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Stephen Ambrose speaks so often about the ability of the US military to act independently and autonomously in the face of a dynamic battlefield.  This was the overlying message of Saving Private Ryan.  Small units able to operate and make independent decisions.  To drill in, he references the 101st in BOB.  Once on the beach and inland, this was the deciding factor in the success of the invasion. 

There's a lesson in there that I really, really wish that we'd re-absorb in modern American society.  A big part of the "American model" that has made this country successful is that blend and balance between the individual and individual initiative and the freedom to come up with solutions and plans, combined with functioning as a unit and depending on and trusting one another, and being there for each other.

Richard Winters didn't take out the 88s.  Neither did "the US Army."  Easy Company did.  The balance between individual freedom of action and collective action and support has been a key element of American achievement.  "Were you a hero in the war?"  "No....but I served in a Company of heroes."  

Edited June 6, 2023 by Brisketexan

[InkaUtexas 25950]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

They were prepared to fight predetermined outcomes from the top down.  They were masters of this.  Where they struggled were the autonomous, small unit tactics that the US excelled at.  

The irony of the paratrooper landings were their disorganized nature.  So many sticks were scattered to the wind that emergency calls from German units gave the impression that the size/scope was much larger than it actually was.  This made a German response much more difficult.  It really wasn't until the inland hedgerow battles that the Germans were able to mount a coordinated defense.  

Don't forget for Rupert. 

[YGIFS 19450]

Somebody should make a TV show about the significant role the Airborne played on D-Day.    But yes, the confusion and disruption of the drops were nearly the feature, not the bug.  

I am reminded today of why the support of Ukraine is essential and just.  If Operation Overlord taught us anything, it is that all wars are crimes.  But the ones in Europe have had an awfully big tendency to spread and create global misery.  

 

 

It is 1750 in Normandy.  The Canadian 3rd ID will leave the beach now.  They will move 6 miles all the way to Phase Line Elm in the next two hours.  They will suffer more even more losses but will lay waste to more German positions than any of the other 5 sectors.  This is the way.

[BabaYaga 15299]

10 minutes ago, ocugolf said:

The amount of courage that generation had is truly astounding. 

I can't wait to the equivalent of BOB/The Pacific talking about the daylight bombing raids over Germany.  The crew had to cycle through 25 raids before being reassigned.  At one point US losses of crews was 1:4.  Do the math.  Statistically every crew bore the burden of knowing they were most likely going to be shot down.  They flew anyway.  The smaller UK bombers took the easier night raids, the larger US forces and their ultra-secret Norden bomb sight needed line of sight, daytime visibility.  To be accurate, they had to cluster and maintain a steady pattern to hit targets, making them extremely vulnerable, especially before the P-51 could accompany them to-from the entire run.   

[Macanudo 12979]

1 hour ago, Scheiss Meister said:

The Longest Day is one of my favorite books.  Oral histories can be tricky, as memories fade and change, and self-interest is always an issue.  Ryan did a fantastic job of sorting through all of that and letting the people who were there tell their little pieces of the big story.

One day I would love to tour the invasion area.  Pegasus Bridge, Pointe du Hoc, and Sainte Mère Églese are all places on my bucket list

All things being equal, Cornelius Ryan wrote The Longest Day fairly soon after the war.   Lots and lots of people were still alive.  

 

On a trip to Normandy in 1949, Ryan became interested in telling a more complete story of Operation Overlord than had been produced to date. He began compiling information and conducting over 1000 interviews as he gathered stories from both the Allies and the Germans, as well as French civilians.^[1]

In 1956 he began to write down his World War II notes for The Longest Day: 6 June 1944 D-Day, which tells the story of the D-Day Invasion of Normandy. He completed it and published it in 1959.

[Trey3216 15346]

12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I can't wait to the equivalent of BOB/The Pacific talking about the daylight bombing raids over Germany.  The crew had to cycle through 25 raids before being reassigned.  At one point US losses of crews was 1:4.  Do the math.  Statistically every crew bore the burden of knowing they were most likely going to be shot down.  They flew anyway.  The smaller UK bombers took the easier night raids, the larger US forces and their ultra-secret Norden bomb sight needed line of sight, daytime visibility.  To be accurate, they had to cluster and maintain a steady pattern to hit targets, making them extremely vulnerable, especially before the P-51 could accompany them to-from the entire run.   

In the bottom right plane in the foreground, the man I'm named after is sitting in the tail manning the gun.   This image was taken 4/17/45 somewhere over Germany.  Pap flew missions over occupied Italy (bombed his father's hometown of Cicciano and Naples), France, Germany, Holland (lot of sorties flown during Market Garden).   His DD214 read like a manuscript, which was never talked about until shortly before he passed in '08.  We didn't even know the full extent until we opened it up.  Insane.  

[Macanudo 12979]

18 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I can't wait to the equivalent of BOB/The Pacific talking about the daylight bombing raids over Germany.  The crew had to cycle through 25 raids before being reassigned.  At one point US losses of crews was 1:4.  Do the math.  Statistically every crew bore the burden of knowing they were most likely going to be shot down.  They flew anyway.  The smaller UK bombers took the easier night raids, the larger US forces and their ultra-secret Norden bomb sight needed line of sight, daytime visibility.  To be accurate, they had to cluster and maintain a steady pattern to hit targets, making them extremely vulnerable, especially before the P-51 could accompany them to-from the entire run.   

This should be a good series but the more and more research we did post war, the more we learned that the bombing had very little impact on Germany's war making ability.   They ran out of gas more than anything.   

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

58 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Stephen Ambrose speaks so often about the ability of the US military to act independently and autonomously in the face of a dynamic battlefield.  This was the overlying message of Saving Private Ryan.  Small units able to operate and make independent decisions.  To drill in, he references the 101st in BOB.  Once on the beach and inland, this was the deciding factor in the success of the invasion.  German troops were unable to react quickly due to their rigid chains of command.

The scene in BOB where Winters and his troops took out the coastal batteries is still (I believe) studied at WestPoint as a textbook assault scripted on the fly in the face of an ever-changing battle space.  

This was then and still is today, one of the main points in Ranger school or really any other infantry or small unit tactics. EVERYONE learns to be in charge and complete the objective. During Ranger school, Cadre will come up to the lowest private in a squad during an evolution/patrol and tell them, "Your squad leader has just been killed/wounded, you are now in charge, complete the objective". 

53 minutes ago, JOSEYWALES66 said:

I recently read The Bedford Boys.  Follows one company through D-Day that was comprised of a lot of soldiers from one small town. 

Heartbreaking. 

Excellent book.

Recommended to ALL to know the sacrifice of not only that day, but ALL of WWII.

51 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

The Germans were prepared to fight companies, battalions, regiments, and divisions with objectives that could be deduced and anticipated.  They had no answer for small groups of paratroopers from different units who got together and said, "OK.  We don't know where we are, or where our objective is, so until someone gets a handle on the situation, let's just fuck up every German position that we can find."

Unofficially recognized in the Airborne community as LGOPS (little groups of paratroopers).

The misplacement  of the drops and the scattering of the Airborne (plus the dummies/Ruperts with explosives) made the Germans think they were either dealing with a much larger assault force or a feint depending on what they ran up against.

30 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I can't wait to the equivalent of BOB/The Pacific talking about the daylight bombing raids over Germany.  The crew had to cycle through 25 raids before being reassigned.  At one point US losses of crews was 1:4.  Do the math.  Statistically every crew bore the burden of knowing they were most likely going to be shot down.  They flew anyway.  The smaller UK bombers took the easier night raids, the larger US forces and their ultra-secret Norden bomb sight needed line of sight, daytime visibility.  To be accurate, they had to cluster and maintain a steady pattern to hit targets, making them extremely vulnerable, especially before the P-51 could accompany them to-from the entire run.   

The British actually switched to night raids because their appalling losses conducting daylight raids prior to us getting into the European theater. They tried to convince our leadership to do the same and attack at night, but you are correct, we insisted on the accuracy of the Norden bomb (which really was proven later to not be that accurate) and to do the same during daylight. Our crew losses during 1943 and early 1944 were so high that we almost relented and switched to nighttime bombing only. Only US airplane production, losses to Germany's fuel oil (losses in Russia) and the development of long range fighter escorts, P47s and P51s, with the 51 not being suitable until the British experimented with it and put their Rolls Royce engine, the same as the Spitfire's, led to great success. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by BillyGoatHill

[BabaYaga 15299]

5 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

This should be a good series but the more and more research we did post war, the more we learned that the bombing had very little impact on Germany's war making ability.   They ran out of gas more than anything.   

My memory might be spotty, but the attacks on civilians was initially by mistake.  German bombers during the Battle of Britain flew off course and attacked a civilian center, mistaking it for a military target.  The Royal Air Force retaliated on German cities that had no strategic importance, thus entering the campaigns of direct attacks on non-military targets.  The Dresden raids in particular were horrific.

[Macanudo 12979]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

My memory might be spotty, but the attacks on civilians was initially by mistake.  German bombers during the Battle of Britain flew off course and attacked a civilian center, mistaking it for a military target.  The Royal Air Force retaliated on German cities that had no strategic importance, thus entering the campaigns of direct attacks on non-military targets.  The Dresden raids in particular were horrific.

Correct.   When the Germans bombed some civilian part of London, Churchill wanted somethign retalitory.   

[cabowabo 4485]

Gonna take Normandy D Day Tour on June 22.  Can't wait.

 

[BabaYaga 15299]

Just now, Macanudo said:

Correct.   When the Germans bombed some civilian part of London, Churchill wanted somethign retalitory.   

When in London a few years back we toured the bunkers and command centers used to coordinate the defense of Britain.  Damn they were small.  Churchill's "quarters" were so fancy he had a small rug and his own piss pot.  Many families have master closets larger than the underground command rooms used to direct much of the war.  

[BabaYaga 15299]

24 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

In the bottom right plane in the foreground, the man I'm named after is sitting in the tail manning the gun.   This image was taken 4/17/45 somewhere over Germany.  Pap flew missions over occupied Italy (bombed his father's hometown of Cicciano and Naples), France, Germany, Holland (lot of sorties flown during Market Garden).   His DD214 read like a manuscript, which was never talked about until shortly before he passed in '08.  We didn't even know the full extent until we opened it up.  Insane.  

B-26?

[YGIFS 19450]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

When in London a few years back we toured the bunkers and command centers used to coordinate the defense of Britain.  Damn they were small.  Churchill's "quarters" were so fancy he had a small rug and his own piss pot.  Many families have master closets larger than the underground command rooms used to direct much of the war.  

I have seen some photos from both my grandfather and one his uncles (U.S. Navy and Kriegsmarine respectively) of these tight quarters from where Admirals waged the largest war in human history.  And I look at photos like these and think the same.  I am just in awe.  You either think back to large palaces where Kings and Emperors declared war or the White House Situation Room with all its technology.  But you realize WWII was fought from glorified closets.  And it somehow worked out for us.  

And then I think of Putin.  Running a war from a 75' conference table with all the space and wi-fi the world can offer.  And he's fucking it up.  Guy needs a bunker.  And a capsule.  

 

It is nearly 1900 hours at Normandy.  Speaking of tight ships, the USS Harding begins bombardment of Vierville.  It will soften up German positions for the imminent approach of beachhead infantry as well as Airborne.  The longest day begins to settle towards sunset, in what will become the most significant nighttime campaign ever waged.  10,000 Allied troops will die before the sun rises again tomorrow.  Still, they press on.  

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

My memory might be spotty, but the attacks on civilians was initially by mistake.  German bombers during the Battle of Britain flew off course and attacked a civilian center, mistaking it for a military target.  The Royal Air Force retaliated on German cities that had no strategic importance, thus entering the campaigns of direct attacks on non-military targets.  The Dresden raids in particular were horrific.

 

9 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Correct.   When the Germans bombed some civilian part of London, Churchill wanted somethign retalitory.   

Yep. A German bomber went off course during a night raid in August 1940 accidentally dropping its bombs on London. Though targets at that time between England and Germany had been only military (Germany did bomb civilians and cities in Poland) , Churchill thought it done on purpose and retaliated the following night with a raid on Berlin. Damage to both cities was slight but now the gloves were off and cities (especially in England) were the main focus of bombing raids.

Later on during the blitz, Germany and Goerring's Luftwaffe had the British RAF on the ropes as their airfields, radar installations , and most importantly the aircrews were being saturated with losses. But Hitler changed their tactics for 6 weeks to bomb the British population (cities) into submission. This 6 weeks gave the Royal Air Force time to regroup and win the Battle of Britain. Operation Sea Lion ( the invasion of Britain) was put on permanent hold due to a lack of control of the skies over England.

[ABSR 5315]

43 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I can't wait to the equivalent of BOB/The Pacific talking about the daylight bombing raids over Germany.  The crew had to cycle through 25 raids before being reassigned.  At one point US losses of crews was 1:4.  Do the math.  Statistically every crew bore the burden of knowing they were most likely going to be shot down.  They flew anyway.  The smaller UK bombers took the easier night raids, the larger US forces and their ultra-secret Norden bomb sight needed line of sight, daytime visibility.  To be accurate, they had to cluster and maintain a steady pattern to hit targets, making them extremely vulnerable, especially before the P-51 could accompany them to-from the entire run.   

Some rotations were even 30 flights, but then you in theory had a break, but were reassigned back again after 6-9 months.  My Wife's grandfather was a navigator on B-17's.  We did not know much about his time until decades after his death when we found a picture and his citation for the Distinguished Flying Cross which was awarded after his 43rd combat mission, where he "manned his guns" as the fighters concentrated an attack on his plane, then rendered aid to his "seriously wounded" radio operator, and then navigated back on the "badly crippled plane" without further injury to crew or aircraft.

[Trey3216 15346]

13 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

B-26?

Indeed 

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

22 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

Gonna take Normandy D Day Tour on June 22.  Can't wait.

 

I've seen the clips and pictures many times but not this particular video. Very cool. Thanks for sharing 🤘

[Armybrat 40850]

My MIL’s lifelong friend Robert Bryan Fox of Granger, Texas was in the US Army 29th Infantry Division at Omaha Beach on June 6th. 

He was shot up so bad, he was in hospital almost two years recovering/rehabilitating from his wounds. 

He returned home to his wife Geraldine and earned a Masters Degree from the University of Texas, beginning his dual career as a teacher and rancher/farmer near his hometown of Granger.
He & Geraldine hosted a BBQ engagement party for my future bride & myself at his 1,800 acre ranch in May, 1967.

Bryan was a true Texan and passed away in 1992 doing what he loved - participating in a Texas trail ride on horseback. RIP

[BabaYaga 15299]

22 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Later on during the blitz, Germany and Goerring's Luftwaffe had the British RAF on the ropes as their airfields, radar installations , and most importantly the aircrews were being saturated with losses. But Hitler changed their tactics for 6 weeks to bomb the British population (cities) into submission. This 6 weeks gave the Royal Air Force time to regroup and win the Battle of Britain. Operation Sea Lion ( the invasion of Britain) was put on permanent hold due to a lack of control of the skies over England.

Same mistake was made in the push for Moscow.  They were only miles from the capital, Russia was on the ropes, and entire sections of their manufacturing was being dismantled and moved to behind the Ural mountains - then forces were split, and divided into armies going North to Leningrad and south into the Caucus regions to capture key O&G targets and getting bogged in Stalingrad.

I have my doubts any sea invasion would have succeeded.  Limited landing areas, even with aid cover, and no landing craft that could take troops to the shoreline would have resulted in catastrophic losses....especially with US fleet in operational order.  

[msucolt45 4062]

Don't forget for Rupert. 

“Rupert” - From the WW2 Museum - NOLA.

A great way to spend a day in New Orleans!

Hook’em!!!

[Kennythetiger 9386]

12 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

My MIL’s lifelong friend Robert Bryan Fox of Granger, Texas was in the US Army 29th Infantry Division at Omaha Beach on June 6th. 

He was shot up so bad, he was in hospital almost two years recovering/rehabilitating from his wounds. 

He returned home to his wife Geraldine and earned a Masters Degree from the University of Texas, beginning his dual career as a teacher and rancher/farmer near his hometown of Granger.
He & Geraldine hosted a BBQ engagement party for my future bride & myself at his 1,800 acre ranch in May, 1967.

Bryan was a true Texan and passed away in 1992 doing what he loved - participating in a Texas trail ride on horseback. RIP

Remind me again why your dad was in the Aleutians, please. What was the strategy there?  

[YGIFS 19450]

Because that's where the Japanese were.  My wife's grandfather was there too.  One of the ugliest, least told stories of WW2.