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Fastbreak

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

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49 minutes ago, d2o said:

Wait, wait, wait........Jokic over Shaq?   Dirk is better than KD?

Jokic absolutely over Shaq. That SF group was really tough to split, in part b/c they don't seem to be similar players outside of the spot they occupy on the roster chart. But sure, flip KD and Dirk, doesn't change the overall ranking.

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HornOnTheBayou
HornOnTheBayou

Agreed. Those would be 5 must-watch games every season.

ztejas
ztejas

I mean they really are pushing the limits of how terrible NBA coverage can be. Before you know it it's going to be 7 women all arguing with Stephen A Smith at the same time. 

Dutchrudder
Dutchrudder

He looks like a character from Men on Film  

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Chewbacca

Chewbacca 7727

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Jokic is absolutely not better than Shaq, that's just recency bias. People forget how dominant Shaq was and I hated him. Stockton is also getting no love as the all time assists leader and I fucking hated him
Jokic and Magic are 2 of the best facilitators ever. And MJ is the GOAT.

Stockton never won shit, but he was a good passer to the child rapist.
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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

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https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/nikola_jokic_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm

That comparison is very basic but it's interesting to look at reg season vs playoffs for the two of them. Jokic goes nuts in the playoffs. And you can mitigate the late career effect on Shaq by looking at the best season and best playoffs numbers.

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Nikola-Jokic/Comparison/49571/Shaquille-ONeal/755

PER comparison shows Jokic's last 3 seasons top Shaq's best season.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=onealsh01&p1yrfrom=1993&p1yrto=2000&player_id2=jokicni01&p2yrfrom=2016&p2yrto=2023

See image highlight the advanced metrics demonstrating higher WS/48min on lower USG% for Jokic over the same ages. The WS/48 differential goes up for the playoffs as Jokic's USG goes up.

 

There's also the fact that in the modern game Jokic is an actual threat from 3 and can actually hit a free throw.

 

Screenshot_2023-07-19_19-34-12.png

 

EDIT:

Re: Dirk vs KD, I was probably wrong for that but the advanced stats suggest it's probably a closer call than most would expect. I limited to the years before KDs injury and the same time span for Dirk. https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=nowitdi01&p1yrfrom=1999&p1yrto=2010&player_id2=duranke01&p2yrfrom=2008&p2yrto=2019

Dirk Nowitzki (1999-2010) vs. Kevin Durant (2008-2019): Advanced

Rk Player Age From To G GS MP PER TS% ORB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Kevin Durant 19-30 2007-08 2018-19 849 849 31305 25.2 .613 2.3 10.7 19.6 1.5 2.3 12.4 30.1 101.0 40.8 141.7 .217 6.0 0.7 6.7 69.0
2 Dirk Nowitzki 20-31 1998-99 2009-10 920 895 33731 23.8 .580 3.9 13.1 13.0 1.3 2.0 8.9 27.0 107.0 43.2 150.2 .214 4.9 0.5 5.4 62.7
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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 48928

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Michael Knight said:

Jokic is absolutely not better than Shaq, that's just recency bias. People forget how dominant Shaq was and I hated him. Stockton is also getting no love as the all time assists leader and I fucking hated him

Yeah, Shaq was not a guy you wanted to piss off... when he wanted to he could really take over a game

 

Edited by LTtxfan
messed up
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Kermit

Kermit 3128

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Defensively, team three is in a world of trouble. A frontline of Jokic and Dirk is a sieve and I’m old enough to have witnessed Magic’s attempts at stopping the other team from scoring. They’re extremely potent offensively, but so us every other team up there. Giannis and Mike can’t do everything. 
 

Team four is interesting in that their front court is extremely strong. I fucking hate Malone, but he and Curry running pick and roll seems unfair. Plus Larry? And Dream? And Wade? Fuck. 
 

Team 2’s backcourt is shit. Absolute dogshit. There’s not a knockdown shooter on the goddamn team. 
 

Team 1 is probably my favorite? Shooting, defense, and a reliable fail safe? The only question is how quickly the relationship between Chris, Kobe, and Garnett deteriorates. Plus Kobe is definitely chucking them out of a game. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15931

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1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Other than Dirk, MJs team lacks elite shooters

nikola jokic is a borderline 50/40/90 guy. he just went for .548/.461/.799 in the 2023 playoffs on his way to a title. 

also that team has MJ, who was a pretty elite shooter himself, and the greatest scoring threat ever.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21468

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5 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I'm pretty sure I won (under the handle LazyEngineer).  I had Moses Malone and Dennis Rodman. All your rebounds are belong to me.  Can't recall who else was on the team.

Mitch’s team won.  He was on vacation or something so I made his last few picks for him.

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HookEm

HookEm 2441

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We should do it again. The game has changed a lot over the last 5 years.

Regarding the four teams above, team 1 could be pretty solid.  Great perimeter shooting from KD, Kobe and CP3.  Unstoppable interior offense from Kareem.  Great perimeter defense from CP3 and Kobe. Great interior defense from Garnett and Kareem. 

Prime Kobe would not be a cakewalk for Jordan on either end of the court.  And prime KD is a significantly better, more versatile player than Giannis.  Dirk and KG are basically a wash.  Prime Kareem is better than Jokic on both ends of the court. The only real advantage for Team 3 is Magic over CP3.

Team 2 is a terribly constructed team.  No shooting.  They would get destroyed.  LeBron and Stockton eventually learned to shoot the 3, but they weren't good at all in their prime - and I assume that is when you would get them.

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HookEm

HookEm 2441

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Team 3 defense is pretty bad.  Magic (28), Dirk (38) and Jokic (35) have never sniffed an All-Defense team (best All-Defense award shares in parentheses).  Jordan is obviously a great defender and Giannis has a DOPY award, but overall this is pretty weak defensive squad.  Compare this to Team 1 which has the following all-defense shares in their prime:  CP3 (3), Kobe (1), Durant (14), Garnett (DPoY), Kareem (2) 

And thinking back, there were some great matchups between Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson.  Zeke definitely held his own against Magic, and CP3 is probably a better all-around player than Zeke - especially on defense.  CP3 isn't going to get bullied around by Magic on defense.  He would lose the matchup, but it wouldn't be as lop sided as I thought initially.

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15931

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13 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Lebron is a better shooter than mj.  If you go by statistics anyway

lebron is not a better shooter than MJ. bron can't even shoot FTs, particularly in the playoffs/crunch time.

name the top 25 perimeter players of all time. you have one shot to save your mother's life. where does lebron rank on your list of preferred shooters? off the top of my head i'm thinking somewhere around 17-18 is going to be his ceiling. MJ is probably my no.2 behind only Larry.

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15931

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9 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

He probably would have won but he was on Derka's team. I think it biased the voting. 

i had stockton, mj, and barkley in my starting five with steph coming off the bench and i lost my semifinal matchup like 38-4. i was on vacation at the time and couldn't make my case for my team. didn't matter, as votes were flying in before either team had made its case, which was against the rules. it was pretty weak, as i really enjoy those types of exercises.

 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15931

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3 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

i had stockton, mj, and barkley in my starting five with steph coming off the bench and i lost my semifinal matchup like 38-4. i was on vacation at the time and couldn't make my case for my team. didn't matter, as votes were flying in before either team had made its case, which was against the rules. it was pretty weak, as i really enjoy those types of exercises.

 

also, people were egregiously shitting all over stockton, essentially dismissing him as an all time great, claiming he was nothing more than a product of playing with/for malone and sloan. this is just an absurd take if you've ever heard what other nba players have to say about stockton.

 

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21468

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4 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

also, people were egregiously shitting all over stockton, essentially dismissing him as an all time great, claiming he was nothing more than a product of playing with/for malone and sloan. this is just an absurd take if you've ever heard what other nba players have to say about stockton.

 

People just hate Stockton because he’s the dirtiest mf’er to ever play in the NBA.  In a popularity contest, which is what that was, you probably shouldn’t take someone who everyone hates.  Rockets, Mavs, Spurs fans can’t agree on much, but you will find a strong consensus on hoping Stockton gets hit by a truck tomorrow.

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Kermit

Kermit 3128

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3 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

People just hate Stockton because he’s the dirtiest mf’er to ever play in the NBA.  In a popularity contest, which is what that was, you probably shouldn’t take someone who everyone hates.  Rockets, Mavs, Spurs fans can’t agree on much, but you will find a strong consensus on hoping Stockton gets hit by a truck tomorrow.

Maybe that truck stops and then backs over him, the driver gets out and pisses all over that motherfucker, then drives over him again. Maybe…

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18517

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11 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

i had stockton, mj, and barkley in my starting five with steph coming off the bench and i lost my semifinal matchup like 38-4. i was on vacation at the time and couldn't make my case for my team. didn't matter, as votes were flying in before either team had made its case, which was against the rules. it was pretty weak, as i really enjoy those types of exercises.

 

I can't remember my whole team, but I know I ended up with the entire 1980s Celtics frontline of Bird, McHale and Parish. Some asshole took 1976 Bill Walton right before my pick even though they already had a center just to fuck me over. I think Jason Kidd was my point guard. Can't remember who my shooting guard was. Part of the argument was that by fluke we both had Barkley and McHale the same year, and it just so happened that year McHale was first team all nba and Barkley was second team. So I conceded Barkley being the overall better player, but McHale being better for the contest. It was tough to argue against.

And as noted, double fuck John Stockton. It was one thing to have outsized but certainly justified hate for him back then because of the way he played, but that was before we even knew he was a batshit crazy vax denier/liar. Too bad he wasn't still playing during the pandemic. He could have been white Kyrie. That would have been fun.

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18517

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21 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

So does jaylen browns 304,000,000/5 yr contract instantly skyrocket to the leagues worst contract?

It's gotta be up there. I like him as a player but holy shit that's a lot of money for a wing who can't dribble coming off a disaster of an ecf. He was borderline unplayable in stretches of that series. Just because you qualify for the super max, doesn't mean that a team has to give it to you, does it? That second apron is going to be barrelling down on them. Who else was going to give him anywhere close to that number in free agency?

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d2o

d2o 1602

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49 minutes ago, SilasCoade said:

I can't believe these kinds of deals are still getting done. That's Bradley Beal level bad for sure.

Owners wanted to cap contracts.   This is the result of the max level contract scale.

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Blotto

Blotto 23418

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1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

It's gotta be up there. I like him as a player but holy shit that's a lot of money for a wing who can't dribble coming off a disaster of an ecf. He was borderline unplayable in stretches of that series. Just because you qualify for the super max, doesn't mean that a team has to give it to you, does it? That second apron is going to be barrelling down on them. Who else was going to give him anywhere close to that number in free agency?

Its hard for me to say what Brown is worth, because shitty contracts are everywhere in that league, but in what universe does Jaylen Brown deserve the biggest contract in the league. These fucking owners/GMs just cant help themselves. 

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Juicy

Juicy 722

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1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

It's gotta be up there. I like him as a player but holy shit that's a lot of money for a wing who can't dribble coming off a disaster of an ecf. He was borderline unplayable in stretches of that series. Just because you qualify for the super max, doesn't mean that a team has to give it to you, does it? That second apron is going to be barrelling down on them. Who else was going to give him anywhere close to that number in free agency?

Yeah this contract just blows my mind. I like Brown but he will NEVER be the best player on a championship team, so thats a lot of money to give to a "role player"

Browns contract is DOUBLE what Booker got and 90 million more than what Luka got. That shit is INSANE.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21468

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6 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

What a horrible and shitty contract.

 

Also, countdown to the impending trade demand.

He’ll be nearly impossible to trade even if someone actually wanted him and that contract.  Salary matching would be extraordinarily difficult on a deal that both teams would agree to.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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3 hours ago, Blotto said:

Its hard for me to say what Brown is worth, because shitty contracts are everywhere in that league, but in what universe does Jaylen Brown deserve the biggest contract in the league. These fucking owners/GMs just cant help themselves. 

Meh, its a max deal.   I mean I guess they could have tried to give him 4 yrs but that was the advantage that owners wanted in giving the fifth yr.   If they offer 4 then he can say fuck yall and get the same on the open market.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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3 hours ago, Juicy said:

Yeah this contract just blows my mind. I like Brown but he will NEVER be the best player on a championship team, so thats a lot of money to give to a "role player"

Browns contract is DOUBLE what Booker got and 90 million more than what Luka got. That shit is INSANE.

He was the next max deal up.    The next max deal guy will get more.   Just like in football when the next QB is highest paid player.

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