Near collision of Delta airliners

[McCroskey 1491]

That's what I did when I got stuck in Atlanta. I flew to New Orleans on Delta and then American to Austin, the next morning. This was when Delta said they couldn't get us back (near) home for another two days. Of course, I never did get reimbursed for the American flight.
And it was pure BS. The connecting flight was cancelled mid-aid from Costa Rica - if it was cancelled earlier, I could have flown a different airlines. Delta said it was weather but the plane was in Arizona where it was 75 degrees and sunny. They didn't have a flight crew because of weather problems somewhere else in the US. That isn't a weather problem, that is a scheduling problem. The airlines get way too much latitude with the weather excuse. It also took us a week to get our luggage because we were stupid enough to trust the Delta Rep. at international baggage claim who said that she could get us on a flight to Dallas 2 days later but that was the best that Delta could do.

They didn’t make you get your bags before you went through customs in ATL?

[Brew 3049]

At some point (in this example with the distances anyways) you just book a car or a different airline. I’m not f-ing around with that much trouble, one way Hertz and I’ll deal with the airlines crap and reimbursement once I’m home. There is a 0.0 chance I’m relying on Delta any longer to get me home in the continental US at that point.

[Neonmoon 38130]

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

That's what I did when I got stuck in Atlanta. I flew to New Orleans on Delta and then American to Austin, the next morning. This was when Delta said they couldn't get us back (near) home for another two days. Of course, I never did get reimbursed for the American flight.

And it was pure BS. The connecting flight was cancelled mid-aid from Costa Rica - if it was cancelled earlier, I could have flown a different airlines. Delta said it was weather but the plane was in Arizona where it was 75 degrees and sunny. They didn't have a flight crew because of weather problems somewhere else in the US. That isn't a weather problem, that is a scheduling problem. The airlines get way too much latitude with the weather excuse. It also took us a week to get our luggage because we were stupid enough to trust the Delta Rep. at international baggage claim who said that she could get us on a flight to Dallas 2 days later but that was the best that Delta could do.

Agree. All airlines use weather and plane maintenance as panacea for scheduling fuckups. 

I feel like most flights have delays these days. Post Covid flying is a shitshow 

[McCroskey 1491]

You all using the Flighty app? Or FR24?

Both are a requirement for me at this point. Flighty tracks for possible connection issues, follows your plane for the ~24 hours before your flight and knows shit when it’s filed and sometimes even before the airline staff even know.

[RPM 26373]

1 hour ago, McCroskey said:

They can’t force you to check your bag unless the bag won’t fit under the seat in front of you AND you have a basic economy ticket or a late boarding assignment AND the overheads are all full.

I've 1) bought my last Basic Economy ticket and 2) taken my last bag that can't fit carry on. That's poors problems.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

1 hour ago, McCroskey said:

I know it’s unlikely to happen anytime soon but Congress really needs to pass better passenger compensation laws similar to what they have in Europe. Start hitting these airlines hard for at fault delays >2 hours, >3 hours, >5 hours, etc….


Also, don’t ever, ever, ever let an airline check your bag if it contains medicine or other essential travel items. They can’t force you to check your bag unless the bag won’t fit under the seat in front of you AND you have a basic economy ticket or a late boarding assignment AND the overheads are all full. I see staff trying to convince people to check their shit all the time but they can only truly force your hand under a very limited number of conditions.

I was not pleased that she let them check her carryon that contained essential items. I bit my tongue because she was already stressed to the max, but I’ll let her know what she has undoubtedly already figured out herself. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

8 hours ago, Mother mopar said:

Pro tip: if she can talk to a "redcoat" they are the supervisors of the front-line customer service agents and have some more flexibility when it comes to overriding booking issues. You can find them very easily, as they wear a red coat/jacket, and cruise the terminal from gate to gate. Hope this helps.

I think this is who overruled the regular agent to give her the last seat - first class, baby!

And, I’m sure it was a Basic Economy ticket since she was in a group of 8 poor medical students.

Edited June 18, 2023 by ImissWallyPryor

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I would have cut losses and found a better way home after first fuckup. 

We were literally working on getting an AA flight through DFW when she texted that Delta was getting them on a flight through MSP. As I mentioned, Delta kept telling them they had a solution, then no solution. Eventually, we said fuck this shit, we’re going to try something else. I think the original connection was through O’Hare, but I may be mistaken. AA is an option I would like to avoid, especially if it involves connections.

Edited June 18, 2023 by ImissWallyPryor

[Incredulity 11684]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:32 AM, YGIFS said:

And that Guatemalan pilot's name?  You guessed it.  Agador Spartacus.

 

Sweet and sour peasant stew?

[YGIFS 19453]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

Sweet and sour peasant stew?

Fuck the shrimp!  

[Homesickhorn 2213]

Why you call seafood chowder for???

First thing that popped into my head upon reading the OP was the John Mulaney stand up bit.

(Singing the jingle) “Because we are Delta Airlines, and life is a fucking nightmare”.

[YGIFS 19453]

I love the setup for that bit when he says something like, "Look, I can't call out the airline by name for legal reasons so let's just makeup a name for some garbage airline.  I dunno, we'll call it Delta Airlines or some shit."  And then the "when you were in the bathroom, we framed you for murder."  

[Horn of Gabriel 1846]

We asked for lower prices on tickets and got them via deregulation and debundling. Now we have “Greyhound in the air.” Careful what you wish for, you buy a basic ass ticket you’re going to get basic ass service. Guarantee if that kid was on a first class ticket they’d have figured it out.

While 70% of this is on is the consumer, the other 30% is on the airlines. They are publicly traded and questing for quarterly results, so of course they are going to cut any corners they can to get there, including safety. That’s why all the major US carriers run their planes down to Guatemala for their regular maintenance. It’s kinda a miracle we haven’t had more major crashes in the US, but it’s a testament to our pilots’ skill and the product created by Boeing and Airbus. Unfortunately that’s rapidly declining as well.

It will take a few hundred people dying in a crash, including kids, before Americans 1) get the politicians to legislate higher safety standards and 2) are willing to pay for it.

[Armybrat 40941]

20 hours ago, RPM said:

If you recall, he fired all the strikers because they were in clear violation of their contracts and the law.

Quote

illegal?

 

 

 

 

On August 3, 1981, the majority of PATCO members went on strike, breaking a 1955 law that banned government employees from striking that had never previously been enforced (Schalch). This law, which was upheld by the Supreme Court in 1971, allowed for punishments including fines and up to one year of jail time (Glass).Sep

Of course the ruckus discombobulated the industry.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Armybrat

[RPM 26373]

9 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

If you recall, he fired all the strikers because they were in clear violation of their contracts and the law.

I recall they were striking for safer working conditions and better pay but the former head of a union crushed a union.

Edited June 18, 2023 by RPM

[Armybrat 40941]

20 minutes ago, RPM said:

I recall they were striking for safer working conditions and better pay but the former head of a union crushed a union.

Correct. But the union still broke the law.

My cousin who was an ATC in Kansas City got the boot too with the rest of them.
He went back to school and earned a secondary teaching certificate so he could start a second career in the KC high schools. 
He lasted one fall semester before resigning - said he couldn’t believe the shit he was suposed to put up with. 

[Captainant 27866]

22 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Correct. But the union still broke the law.

And MLK broke the law when he coordinated sit-ins, and every other civil rights and workers rights movement has been "against the law". The law being unjust is usually the raison d'etre for the protests or strike. 

When the ATC union was crushed in the 80s they weren't twisting arms to skim profits for the mob - they were campaigning for better pay and less exhausting hours while holding the lives of tens of thousands of people in their hands each shift. 

[Bevo 13606]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

And MLK broke the law when he coordinated sit-ins, and every other civil rights and workers rights movement has been "against the law". The law being unjust is usually the raison d'etre for the protests or strike. 

When the ATC union was crushed in the 80s they weren't twisting arms to skim profits for the mob - they were campaigning for better pay and less exhausting hours while holding the lives of tens of thousands of people in their hands each shift. 

And Ted Kaczynski broke the law when he wanted change and mailed a few packages stating his case.

[Captainant 27866]

20 minutes ago, Bevo said:

And Ted Kaczynski broke the law when he wanted change and mailed a few packages stating his case.

Bit of an apples to assholes comparison lol

[EuroHorn 3272]

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45751]

2 hours ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

They are publicly traded and questing for quarterly results, so of course they are going to cut any corners they can to get there, including safety

There’s the fucking rub. 

[Biff Tannen 45751]

38 minutes ago, Bevo said:

And Ted Kaczynski broke the law when he wanted change and mailed a few packages stating his case.

Totally the same thing. 

[McCroskey 1491]

We were literally working on getting an AA flight through DFW when she texted that Delta was getting them on a flight through MSP. As I mentioned, Delta kept telling them they had a solution, then no solution. Eventually, we said fuck this shit, we’re going to try something else. I think the original connection was through O’Hare, but I may be mistaken. AA is an option I would like to avoid, especially if it involves connections.

Post that flight number from Friday night when you can. I’m eager to see just how close things got. FR24 records everything so it’s easy to go back and look.

[McCroskey 1491]

We asked for lower prices on tickets and got them via deregulation and debundling. Now we have “Greyhound in the air.” Careful what you wish for, you buy a basic ass ticket you’re going to get basic ass service. Guarantee if that kid was on a first class ticket they’d have figured it out.

While 70% of this is on is the consumer, the other 30% is on the airlines. They are publicly traded and questing for quarterly results, so of course they are going to cut any corners they can to get there, including safety. That’s why all the major US carriers run their planes down to Guatemala for their regular maintenance. It’s kinda a miracle we haven’t had more major crashes in the US, but it’s a testament to our pilots’ skill and the product created by Boeing and Airbus. Unfortunately that’s rapidly declining as well.

It will take a few hundred people dying in a crash, including kids, before Americans 1) get the politicians to legislate higher safety standards and 2) are willing to pay for it.

Gonna go ahead and disagree with you there that the carriers are “cutting corners” on safety.

As you allude to we’re at almost 23 years since the last mainline carrier had a “crash”…AA 587 if I recall correctly in October 2001. Some regional carriers had crashes between then and 2009 but there’s been nothing since then. Southwest of course had the incident in 2018/2019 were an uncontained engine failure caused that poor woman from New Mexico to die, but the plane obviously landed safely.

IMO I wouldn’t say anything is in a state of “rapid decline” but certainly there are areas that need more attention, especially with air traffic volumes now exceeding pre-pandemic levels. Hopefully congress and/or the FAA get some improvements in place soon so we don’t have to experience a crash first.

[McCroskey 1491]

I was not pleased that she let them check her carryon that contained essential items. I bit my tongue because she was already stressed to the max, but I’ll let her know what she has undoubtedly already figured out herself. 

I unfortunately see that a lot…the stressful situations get people flustered in the moment and they make decisions in a rush and are at the mercy of gate agents who might not care.

As you say, she likely realizes it now, and that’s a good thing for next time.

[Deej 76985]

4 hours ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

It will take a few hundred people dying in a crash, including kids, before Americans 1) get the politicians to legislate higher safety standards and 2) are willing to pay for it.

Now replace "in a crash" with "from assault rifles". 

Still think anything will happen? 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

1 hour ago, EuroHorn said:

 

 

That'll buff right out.

What does the pilot do? Hop out and leave a note on the windshield?

[Bevo 13606]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Totally the same thing. 

Yeah just like MLK and the ATC strikes.

[Captainant 27866]

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Yeah just like MLK and the ATC strikes.

Oh my bad, just like how the Unabomber and workers on strike are the same thing, yeah?

[Bevo 13606]

44 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Oh my bad, just like how the Unabomber and workers on strike are the same thing, yeah?

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

My daughter called me today for Fathers Day. Nothing much to add except she said the Delta employees in Minneapolis lived up to the Midwest Nice reputation, unlike the Southern Hospitality she didn’t see from the Delta folks in Atlanta. 

[52-80 19274]

i can't believe capitalism would do this to the ATC staffing run by the.... federal aviation administration

[Celery Man 21021]

I don’t think anybody blamed capitalism for the apparent ATC fuckup.

[YGIFS 19453]

Yeah, that is a weird take on all this.  Capitalism and the Federal Government.  You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger skeptic of the Federal Government than me but I mean, the planes fly across multiple states...that's kinda their jam.  If ever there was something you need federalized, that would be it.  Does anyone feel safe taking off from Logan to O'Hare under the auspices of the Massachusetts Aviation Association?  

I think it was on the old board, somebody posted an article.  I wanna say like Esquire or Wired or the Atlantic, some place you don't exactly go for Aviation News.  But the gist was that the reason we purposely (across multiple administrations of both parties) keep our ATC system so antiquated and analog is it makes it nearly impossible to hack.  That comes with flaws because it doesn't catch all ground traffic issues.  But at least this way, some bad actor can't hack in and drag down multiple flights despite what Die Hard II tried to say.  It still kinda stands to reason.  

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be holding at the outer marker.  

[Your Mom 4858]

Rep for knowing what an outer marker is. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:02 AM, Telegraph_it said:

This is why you need to book travel with CSR or Amex Plat.

What is CSR? Sarcastic responses are welcome. 

[Surly Bevo 25232]

9 hours ago, Your Mom said:

Rep for knowing what an outer marker is. 

Anybody who has watched Die Hard 2 knows what the outer marker is.  

 

AND are we ever gonna get this flight number or is this all just bulsh to cover a fucked up flight solution.  

[McCroskey 1491]

What is CSR? Sarcastic responses are welcome. 

Chase sapphire reserve. Your daughter would have gotten paid some $$$ given the circumstances.

[McCroskey 1491]

Anybody who has watched Die Hard 2 knows what the outer marker is.  
 
AND are we ever gonna get this flight number or is this all just bulsh to cover a fucked up flight solution.  

I quit asking. I’m genuinely curious how badly ATC fucked up.

[YGIFS 19453]

3 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Anybody who has watched Die Hard 2 knows what the outer marker is.  

 

AND are we ever gonna get this flight number or is this all just bulsh to cover a fucked up flight solution.  

All due respect Dulles Tower's Miller (played by the magnificent Vondie Curtis-Hall), I also knew what an outer marker was from my pilot uncle.  Unfortunately, he got his wires crossed one time and broke a massive Kalitta 747.  Thankfully, nobody was hurt.  But he stopped giving aviation advice to me after this incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalitta_Air_Flight_207

[McCroskey 1491]

All due respect Dulles Tower's Miller (played by the magnificent Vondie Curtis-Hall), I also knew what an outer marker was from my pilot uncle.  Unfortunately, he got his wires crossed one time and broke a massive Kalitta 747.  Thankfully, nobody was hurt.  But he stopped giving aviation advice to me after this incident:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalitta_Air_Flight_207

I bet that buffed out.

[YGIFS 19453]

He is a decorated army helicopter pilot from Vietnam.  And that accident could have certainly been worse considering what they were carrying.  But he would chat sometimes about apron/tarmac/runway safety issues and he flew all over the world, literally.  He mentioned all kinda lingo like "outer marker."  And he did not appreciate when I referred to this Brussels incident with the front half of the aircraft in a ravine as "The Belgian Dip"  

[mininghorn88 2307]

Back in April I was flying into ATL from SHV on a regional jet on a nice, clear day. We were making a nice and easy approach until when we were maybe 20 to 30 feet off of the ground when the pilot gave it full throttle and we quickly gained altitude. The pilot came on the speaker and said, “Ladies and gentleman, we are going to circle and make another pass”. That was the only explanation. Not sure if they started their approach too early/late or steep or if a plane suddenly crossed the runway?

I flown over 2 million miles and that was my second aborted landing against one aborted takeoff that I have been a passenger on. The other aborted landing was due to poor visibility and the aborted takeoff was due to a hydraulic issue with the landing gear.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

1 hour ago, McCroskey said:

Chase sapphire reserve. Your daughter would have gotten paid some $$$ given the circumstances.

And here I thought it was Customer Service Representative. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by ImissWallyPryor

[McCroskey 1491]

Well, OP has a right to be pissed as fuck about what happened last week.

His daughter’s flight (Airbus A320) lined up and commenced takeoff from runway 26L in Atlanta and moments before it achieved V1, another Delta Airbus A350 (tail N504DN) being towed/ferried, temporarily crossed onto the same runway.

From where I’m sitting it appears to be an ATC issue but there def needs to be an investigation into this. I would guess the tow driver is most likely at fault as I just can’t see two pilots taking off without clearance.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

8 minutes ago, McCroskey said:

it achieved V1

For the uninitiated (including me), the jet had reached 98 knots, or ~110 mph. 

[Surly Bevo 25232]

9 minutes ago, McCroskey said:

Well, OP has a right to be pissed as fuck about what happened last week.

His daughter’s flight (Airbus A320) lined up and commenced takeoff from runway 26L in Atlanta and moments before it achieved V1, another Delta Airbus A350 (tail N504DN) being towed/ferried, temporarily crossed onto the same runway.

From where I’m sitting it appears to be an ATC issue but there def needs to be an investigation into this. I would guess the tow driver is most likely at fault as I just can’t see two pilots taking off without clearance.

So you picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue?

[Celery Man 21021]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:30 AM, Neonmoon said:

I would have cut losses and found a better way home after first fuckup. 

easier when you're not a student/teenager/whatever but yeah as soon as a flight (esp late flight) gets cancelled I'm racing everyone else on that same trip to book a seat in the next best available flight(s) regardless of carrier

 

I was trying to remember the big air disaster that this made me think of, and remembered it was a KLM pilot who was their chief instructor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

Fog and shitty communication, 747 attempts takeoff on a runway that wasn't clear (by another 747, fuuuuck), bad times had by all, still the deadliest aviation accident. Personally I'd rather get sucked out of the fuselage than burn alive inside it

 

Quote

Immediately after lining up, the KLM captain advanced the throttles and the aircraft started to move forward.[31] Meurs advised him that ATC clearance had not yet been given and van Zanten responded: "No, I know that. Go ahead, ask." Meurs then radioed the tower that they were "ready for takeoff" and "waiting for our ATC clearance". The KLM crew then received instructions that specified the route that the aircraft was to follow after takeoff. The instructions used the word "takeoff," but did not include an explicit statement that they were cleared for takeoff.

Meurs read the flight clearance back to the controller, completing the readback with the statement: "We are now at takeoff."[4] Van Zanten interrupted the co-pilot's readback with the comment, "We're going."[4]

The controller, who could not see the runway due to the fog, initially responded with "OK" (terminology that is nonstandard), which reinforced the KLM captain's misinterpretation that they had takeoff clearance. The controller's response of "OK" to the co-pilot's nonstandard statement that they were "now at takeoff" was likely due to his misinterpretation that they were in takeoff position and ready to begin the roll when takeoff clearance was received, but not in the process of taking off. The controller then immediately added "stand by for takeoff, I will call you",[4] indicating that he had not intended the instruction to be interpreted as a takeoff clearance.[32]

A simultaneous radio call from the Pan Am crew caused mutual interference on the radio frequency, which was audible in the KLM cockpit as a three-second-long shrill sound (or heterodyne). This caused the KLM crew to miss the crucial latter portion of the tower's response. The Pan Am crew's transmission was "We're still taxiing down the runway, the Clipper 1736!" This message was also blocked by the interference and inaudible to the KLM crew. Either message, if heard in the KLM cockpit, would have alerted the crew to the situation and given them time to abort the takeoff attempt.[33]

[YGIFS 19453]

csb/ I remember reading about that disaster literally on our way to the Canary Islands for our honeymoon.  And I fucking hate flying.  But I was comforted by the fact that there was no way in the world the second largest air disaster would happen on these obscure African islands.  Years later, my wife and I were watching the "Breaking Bad" episode where Walter White attempts to calm the students by telling them that story after Jesse's dead girlfriend's dad slammed two more together.  And it freaked the living shit out of me and I canceled a plane trip the next morning.  The universe is weird and I can't believe we can fly through parts of it.  

[McCroskey 1491]

16 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

For the uninitiated (including me), the jet had reached 98 knots, or ~110 mph. 

Yep, maybe even closer to 105 knots upon closer inspection of the data.  V1 for that type I believe is around 120knots minimum...but can be as high as 140knots depending on conditions.