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Legacy admission into colleges and universities

Pancho

By Pancho
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SimonBolivar

SimonBolivar 10961

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See that's the great thing about being a legacy. I got in, but it might've been my stunning application that got me in instead of my parents both attending the university too.

 

I guess on the pro side is that you get kids that are excited to go there and are more likely to finish and donate, but those seem relatively small in the grand scheme of things compared to the cons.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105451

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7 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Anyone want to admit they were a legacy admission? Pros? I only see cons but open to hearing otherwise.

 

 

The cons are obvious, and many.

But I'll give you some pros (really, just one interrelated mishmash): letting in legacies is good for fundraising, both in the short term and long term.  Legacies often come from families with the means to write big fat checks to the university, and universities need big fat checks.  So, even though Willard Q Frothingbottom IV is a middling student (and something of an entitled douche), letting him in ensures that those fat checks from Willard Q Frothingbottom III and Willard Q Frothingbottom jr.  And, let's be honest....the Frothingbottom family's extensive business interests in mines worked by slave labor and selling opiates to addicted hillbillies makes them very, very, very valuable donors.  And let's not forget that Willard Q Frothingbottom IV is set to inherit all of that wealth, if he doesn't blow it all on trips to see the Titanic or some shit.

Look, it's unsavory and icky....but the reasons in support of legacy admissions are real, and often have large $$$ signs attached to them.

Which is why universities should have more flexibility in the criteria they consider.  Because if Harvard is going to admit some less qualified white dudes because their family has a big pile of that sweet Frothingbottom moolah, then maybe Harvard oughta let in some otherwise less qualified minorities to tip the scales back a bit.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 46249

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No legacy admission here . . . my parents were both Washington University alums, and I didn't even apply.  Don't know if I would have gotten in, but if I had, it wouldn't have been because of their check-writing, that's for sure.

I don't know how all this gets solved.  First, there's public vs private.  Then, there are the non-academic scholarships (sports, performing arts which I guess are "academic", etc.).  

I think Robin Hood is complete horseshit as it currently stands.  I don't know how to "fix" that, although I do agree all residents of a state should have reasonable access to their state universities. 

I think individual admissions weighting should be less related to race and more related to income and assets, but I don't know how you do that.  It's still not perfect.

tl;dr it's a mess.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105451

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3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

No legacy admission here . . . my parents were both Washington University alums, and I didn't even apply.  Don't know if I would have gotten in, but if I had, it wouldn't have been because of their check-writing, that's for sure.

I don't know how all this gets solved.  First, there's public vs private.  Then, there are the non-academic scholarships (sports, performing arts which I guess are "academic", etc.).  

I think Robin Hood is complete horseshit as it currently stands.  I don't know how to "fix" that, although I do agree all residents of a state should have reasonable access to their state universities. 

I think individual admissions weighting should be less related to race and more related to income and assets, but I don't know how you do that.  It's still not perfect.

tl;dr it's a mess.

Yeah.

I do find it interesting that many of the folks who take a strong populist "the game is rigged!" stance are stridently opposed to affirmative action.....but don't raise any stink about all of the other admissions "tricks" universities use.  The "game is rigged" in large part because a good chunk of the players have an incredible advantage and tilted playing field.

Five generations of Frothingbottoms have gone to Harvard.  Willard Q Frothingbottom IV got into Harvard because he's rich.  But....he's also going to end up rich (or stay rich)....because he went to Harvard.  The rich send generations upon generations to Ivy League schools and their equivalents, while the poor (who 1) are heavily minority, 2) won't be writing any big donation checks, 3) usually go to much shittier high schools, 4) don't have access to SAT prep courses or essay writing coaches, etc.) will be lucky to get into and afford Dingleberry State.  Paul Poorboy IV is almost certainly never going to be in anywhere close to the same league as Willard Q Frothingbottom IV.  He's never going to have access to Willard's connections.  He won't be having lunch with Willard's chums at the Harvard Club in Manhattan, where Willard gets looped in on a new mine opportunity with "extra-willing" slave labor that's going to make him another $500 million in the next 5 years.

Opening our elite universities up to people and families who never had such access or opportunities, in large part because for generations, their families were shut out of society at large (slavery through Jim Crow, which ran through the 1960s, for example) is a way to counter the "the game is rigged!" problem.

But back to my initial point....if we are going to expect universities to afford to do what they do, they're going to have to whore themselves out for money to the people who rig the game.  There's no breaking out of the big old mess.

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I'm a legacy.  I had an aunt who used to bowl with one of the admins at Tyler junior college.  I applied after the deadline but she got it pushed through the system.  It's all about who you know. 

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SimonBolivar

SimonBolivar 10961

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5 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

I'm a legacy.  I had an aunt who used to bowl with one of the admins at Tyler junior college.  I applied after the deadline but she got it pushed through the system.  It's all about who you know. 

Man, you were so close to being forced into Kilgore.

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Helobious

Helobious 9467

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1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Parents were not alum of UT or any other higher ed schools. 

Public schools should not favor legacy, or other non-academic based factors. 

Private schools can do whatever the fuck they want. 

Athletics are a non-academic factor. You think UT, Bama, florida, etc should be more limited in who they can recruit?

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BamaATL

BamaATL 16593

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Legacy myself, although I'm sure it played no factor in my being admitted.  At least at the time while I was at Alabama this was fairly common (this was 97-01).  I would say something on the order of 50% of students had legacy ties to the University prior to attending.  Just like any other group, some probably shouldn't have been there but managed to get in via connections, but the vast majority were on their own merits.  Additionally, those that really shouldn't have been there typically didn't last long.  However, at the time I was enrolled, general admission was down (I think the undergrad population was something like 14k, whereas now it's somewhere around 30k), so I'd have to at least imagine that competition is currently much greater.  

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bschoolprof

bschoolprof 6273

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.

I do find it interesting that many of the folks who take a strong populist "the game is rigged!" stance are stridently opposed to affirmative action.....but don't raise any stink about all of the other admissions "tricks" universities use.  The "game is rigged" in large part because a good chunk of the players have an incredible advantage and tilted playing field.

Five generations of Frothingbottoms have gone to Harvard.  Willard Q Frothingbottom IV got into Harvard because he's rich.  But....he's also going to end up rich (or stay rich)....because he went to Harvard.  The rich send generations upon generations to Ivy League schools and their equivalents, while the poor (who 1) are heavily minority, 2) won't be writing any big donation checks, 3) usually go to much shittier high schools, 4) don't have access to SAT prep courses or essay writing coaches, etc.) will be lucky to get into and afford Dingleberry State.  Paul Poorboy IV is almost certainly never going to be in anywhere close to the same league as Willard Q Frothingbottom IV.  He's never going to have access to Willard's connections.  He won't be having lunch with Willard's chums at the Harvard Club in Manhattan, where Willard gets looped in on a new mine opportunity with "extra-willing" slave labor that's going to make him another $500 million in the next 5 years.

Opening our elite universities up to people and families who never had such access or opportunities, in large part because for generations, their families were shut out of society at large (slavery through Jim Crow, which ran through the 1960s, for example) is a way to counter the "the game is rigged!" problem.

But back to my initial point....if we are going to expect universities to afford to do what they do, they're going to have to whore themselves out for money to the people who rig the game.  There's no breaking out of the big old mess.

This. Legacy = donors, and universities have whole armies of people dedicated to fundraising. That’s how many top privates can offer free tuition to poor and middle class students. Top schools, public or private, can’t survive without donors. 
 

Similar factors are at play with the type of stuff that forced Bill Powers out. Of course he’s gonna put his thumb on the scale when powerful politician X tells him to take a hard look at little Johnny Neerdowell. The wink, wink, nudge nudge is pretty obvious at that point. 
 

yes, this sucks and feels dirty. 

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52-80

52-80 19271

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18 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Athletics are a non-academic factor. You think UT, Bama, florida, etc should be more limited in who they can recruit?

Yes. Lets be honest, the only overlap major college sports have with the university and university body is in the name. 

Many of the scholarship athletes major in throwaday degrees which they dont complete anyway. Like the great scholar Cardale Jones once said, they aint come here to play school. 

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BamaATL

BamaATL 16593

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15 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Yes. Lets be honest, the only overlap major college sports have with the university and university body is in the name. 

Many of the scholarship athletes major in throwaday degrees which they dont complete anyway. Like the great scholar Cardale Jones once said, they aint come here to play school. 

I can only speak from own experience, but during my time at Alabama (again 97-01) the academic portion for football and other revenue sports was not at all a focus for them.  I can only recall a couple of classes I ever had with any players, and they were all electives, no major course work.  There was one guy I had class with that I really am not sure could functionally read (he did play a while in the NFL, so hopefully he made good financial decisions, though I doubt it).  Since Saban has been there, I am aware that academics has been an important part of what they are doing.  Perhaps not always in anything earth shattering, but still a drastic improvement.  When I was enrolled, I know there were many players in their 4th year that were "undecided".  I don't see that anymore.  

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Helobious

Helobious 9467

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28 minutes ago, blacklab said:

No legacy here. I got into UT via hard work and study.

Hate to brag but I had >1100 SAT and was in the top 25% of my high school class which got me into UT.

That’s fucking insane. It was top 8% when I was a senior. Think it’s down to top 6% nowadays. I couldn’t get in despite being a star athlete with 4 jobs and being the funniest and most popular and attractive guy in school. 

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27614

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Non legacy. First on mom’s side of family to graduate HS

 

I read somewhere that the average GPA and test scores for Harvard legacies are higher than that for the rest of the applicant pool. I’m sure there’s some dumb twats getting in as well but it must be a small fraction and I honestly don’t give a shit. 

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2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

 

Public schools should not favor legacy, or other non-academic based factors. 

 

Thank you for the laugh of the day.  That ain't happening, nor has it in a long fucking time.

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'stache

'stache 21892

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I refused to apply to Del Mar College because I did not want to be given any preferential treatment as a legacy. I'd hate to have attended Del Mar College and have everyone think I was only there because of legacy status. That just wouldn't be fair to myself or others. 

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52-80

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6 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

I can only speak from own experience, but during my time at Alabama (again 97-01) the academic portion for football and other revenue sports was not at all a focus for them.  I can only recall a couple of classes I ever had with any players, and they were all electives, no major course work.  There was one guy I had class with that I really am not sure could functionally read (he did play a while in the NFL, so hopefully he made good financial decisions, though I doubt it).  Since Saban has been there, I am aware that academics has been an important part of what they are doing.  Perhaps not always in anything earth shattering, but still a drastic improvement.  When I was enrolled, I know there were many players in their 4th year that were "undecided".  I don't see that anymore.  

Most of the student body enrolled in school primarily to learn and, using the prestige of the institution, secure good employment.  Smart and successful classmates boost that credential. 

Having a good athletic program doesnt.

I mean its great Vince won a championship but UT would be UT with or without him. Especially now that NCAA allows NIL, we dont need to pretend that big sports programs arent professional anymore  

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52-80

52-80 19271

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10 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I read somewhere that the average GPA and test scores for Harvard legacies are higher than that for the rest of the applicant pool. 

Wouldnt be surprised. In aggregate, smart parents tend to have smart kids. Legacy doesnt have to consist of exclusively generations of nepotic inheritance. 

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MonkeyDoughnut

MonkeyDoughnut 10362

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15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Non legacy. First on mom’s side of family to graduate HS

 

I read somewhere that the average GPA and test scores for Harvard legacies are higher than that for the rest of the applicant pool. I’m sure there’s some dumb twats getting in as well but it must be a small fraction and I honestly don’t give a shit. 

College is class system... not surprised at all.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21472

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Non-legacy.  I was 69th out of a class of 695 at the end of my jr year, which combined with a pretty good SAT score got me auto-admitted.  I don’t remember the exact rules back then, but it was my understanding at the time that if one more kid dropped out or died that I wouldn’t have gotten the auto-admit.  

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blacklab

blacklab 11956

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39 minutes ago, Helobious said:

That’s fucking insane. It was top 8% when I was a senior. Think it’s down to top 6% nowadays. I couldn’t get in despite being a star athlete with 4 jobs and being the funniest and most popular and attractive guy in school. 

What's really crazy is in the mid 80's if you were bottom 25% of your high school class you only needed a 1200 SAT to get into UT.

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Homercles

Homercles 10206

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1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

I can only speak from own experience, but during my time at Alabama (again 97-01) the academic portion for football and other revenue sports was not at all a focus for them.  I can only recall a couple of classes I ever had with any players, and they were all electives, no major course work.  There was one guy I had class with that I really am not sure could functionally read (he did play a while in the NFL, so hopefully he made good financial decisions, though I doubt it).  Since Saban has been there, I am aware that academics has been an important part of what they are doing.  Perhaps not always in anything earth shattering, but still a drastic improvement.  When I was enrolled, I know there were many players in their 4th year that were "undecided".  I don't see that anymore.  

Hell in ‘06 I’m not even sure your coach knew how to SPEAK English…17 years later and I still remember this halftime interview:

 

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Celery Man

Celery Man 21004

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2 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Dad went to Texas but I honestly don’t think that it factored in.

I actually am curious if anyone has insight into admissions from a huge school like UT on if… would it even come up/be factored that my dad went to school there thirty years earlier if I just… applied and we weren’t any kind of donor or having conversations with admissions people/etc?

UT was not like it is but was getting difficult to get in if you weren’t top 10% in 04. I don’t…. think that AP classes got weighted differently for class ranking scale at that point (it was just 4.0 scale). I had mid 3 which was not enough for top 10%, but I had the highest SAT score in my class and good extracurriculars/etc, I still had to do the summer session to get in as a freshman.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31582

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40 minutes ago, blacklab said:

What's really crazy is in the mid 80's if you were bottom 25% of your high school class you only needed a 1200 SAT to get into UT.

It was top quarter or 1100.  If 1100, you could be last in your class.  21 ACT worked too.

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Earl Haffler

Earl Haffler 597

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2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It was top quarter or 1100.  If 1100, you could be last in your class.  21 ACT worked too.

For out of state, it was both.  The only reason I got in is that I met an admissions counselor who had debated against my prep school and know of it's reputation. I sent my transcript to him and voila, got in.

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PRONG HORN

PRONG HORN 3161

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2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah even with a liberal court I think this is going to be a tough one. 

 

Yeah.  And what the heck are Latinos mad about anyway?  What's their complaint?  Black people have the history of slavery and oppression.  Why were Latinos ever included in affirmative action?  Because their parents had to swim a slow river and walk in the desert for a little bit?  

 

 

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Celery Man

Celery Man 21004

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29 minutes ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

Yeah.  And what the heck are Latinos mad about anyway?  What's their complaint?  Black people have the history of slavery and oppression.  Why were Latinos ever included in affirmative action?  Because their parents had to swim a slow river and walk in the desert for a little bit?  

 

 

oh is that how the brown people got into texas

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 46249

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Admissions are weird.  My younger two both CAP'ed into UT.  The older is whip smart, great grades, great test scores, tons of extracurriculars, but spent so much time on music that she finished just outside of top 6%.  We did the whole SAT coaching, essay coaching thing, but CAP it was.  It worked out fine, it was online (covid) and she'll graduate pretty soon.

The younger, while not a doorknob, is certainly not as mature, and his grades and test scores were nowhere near as high.  I had zero inkling he'd even make CAP.  He focused on smaller schools, soccer scholarships, etc.  He applied to UT anyway, which I wasn't gonna discourage, but in the back of my mind thought "yeah, right".  No SAT coaching, no essay coaching.  He wrote his essay the night before it was due, I pointed out a couple of errors but pretty much left it alone . . . and voila!  CAP'ed.  I was flabbergasted.  I honestly think it was because his essay was written by an 18 YO kid, not an 18 YO kid run through a half dozen adult editing filters.  Got thru UT-Tyler with great grades.  Any port in a storm -- he's in.

You just never know.  Legacy, grades, scores, essays, mood of the admissions officer, whatever.  You just never know.

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Helobious

Helobious 9467

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1 hour ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

Yeah.  And what the heck are Latinos mad about anyway?  What's their complaint?  Black people have the history of slavery and oppression.  Why were Latinos ever included in affirmative action?  Because their parents had to swim a slow river and walk in the desert for a little bit?  

 

 

What the fuck are you talking about

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