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2018 Pro Cycling: Team Sky Goes Postal, the Chris Froome Saga (Plus TdF)

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Txzen

Txzen 514

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Of course you are right - donkey into race horse. Dirty dirty.

To continue to threadshit the 'I hate Chris Froome' post with race talk, I've finally been able to watch the Finestre climb (thank you Cycletorrents). Domoulin really looked great, and it's a shame he won't walk away with the overall. Not sure what happened to Yates - he really didn't last more than a few K before being shelled, and to lose 8 min on one climb suggests more than just being a little off the pace. Wonder if he is battling some illness. He's young, and I'm sure we'll see more of him.

I unapologetically state my man crush on LL Sanchez - dude looks beautiful on the bike with perfect form.

There's a sick part of me that want to do the Finestre some day, though I'm sure I won't be turning 300W on wet sticky dirt like these guys. I have one small taste of a road like that on the Col Spandelles (before the Aubisque). On paper it didn't look bad but it ended up being a glorified tractor path with sections of gravel at 9-10+ percent. I clawed my way up. Hardest day on the bike I've ever had.

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G650

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1 hour ago, Txzen said:

Of course you are right - donkey into race horse. Dirty dirty.

To continue to threadshit the 'I hate Chris Froome' post with race talk, I've finally been able to watch the Finestre climb (thank you Cycletorrents). Domoulin really looked great, and it's a shame he won't walk away with the overall. Not sure what happened to Yates - he really didn't last more than a few K before being shelled, and to lose 8 min on one climb suggests more than just being a little off the pace. Wonder if he is battling some illness. He's young, and I'm sure we'll see more of him.

I unapologetically state my man crush on LL Sanchez - dude looks beautiful on the bike with perfect form.

There's a sick part of me that want to do the Finestre some day, though I'm sure I won't be turning 300W on wet sticky dirt like these guys. I have one small taste of a road like that on the Col Spandelles (before the Aubisque). On paper it didn't look bad but it ended up being a glorified tractor path with sections of gravel at 9-10+ percent. I clawed my way up. Hardest day on the bike I've ever had.

I actually just caught it as well. The guy with the big inhaler cracked me up.

 

I'm actually a big LL Sanchez guy too. He is such a beast. We should hook up for a Finestre climb. I'm the right kind of stupid to tackle that.

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52-80

52-80 19377

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You just have to laugh because if the naive Britons didn't learn a damn lesson from the tales of sir Lancelot of the past decade, they're gonna run into it head on , probably 6mo-a few years from now, when the armor of Sky falls apart

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Bevo

Bevo 13870

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8 hours ago, G650 said:

And the UCI clears him lol.

 

If I were Petacchi or Ullisi I'd sue the fuck out of the UCI.

How is Sky cheating? Wiggins I saw had a medical exemption for steroids from the UCI and I assume that his teammates did as well. But, if Sky was able to get the exemption, I assume all the other teams were able to get one as well.  Is there a reason why the UCI would favor Sky? Also, albuterol seems like a pretty minor performance enhancer. Wouldn't the Sky team be using somethings a little more effective and wouldn't those same tricks be passed on to other teams as they acquire former teammates of Froome?

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idigTexas

idigTexas 2330

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I'm not the Sky hater that many are, and asked a similar question on the old board.  The gist of it is that Sky painted themselves as a holier than thou squeaky clean team that would win the right way.  Many of their methods are controversial, and while technically legal, definitely don't belong atop the moral high ground from which they preach.  This has made them not particularly well liked in some circles, with many wanting to see them fail and/or caught cheating.


As long as all teams and riders have the same rules and advantages, I don't really care.  These are all still amazing athletes accomplishing epic feats on a bicycle.  Sure, I would prefer that cycling were a completely clean sport, but I'm still a fan, and always will be. 

 

 

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G650

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3 hours ago, Bevo said:

How is Sky cheating? Wiggins I saw had a medical exemption for steroids from the UCI and I assume that his teammates did as well. But, if Sky was able to get the exemption, I assume all the other teams were able to get one as well.  Is there a reason why the UCI would favor Sky? Also, albuterol seems like a pretty minor performance enhancer. Wouldn't the Sky team be using somethings a little more effective and wouldn't those same tricks be passed on to other teams as they acquire former teammates of Froome?

How is Sky cheating generally or in this specific instance? Generally, they are doing what everyone else is doing, blood bags, microdose, etc ... In this instance they are just money whipping the authorities. There's no way the UCI or WADA can litigate this case, and in the UCI's instance, there's no appetite for actually cleaning anything up. You can see right in the report that even the best case adjustment leaves Froome over the limit significantly. It's all a sham.

 

I'm not an everyone must be clean proponent either. I dont want unlimited doping for several reasons, not the least of which the riders will literally kill themselves like the old days. Plus plus it robs the talented riders disproportionately, because your VO2max and hematocrit can go only so high, so in effect the doping brings the shitty riders up to the level of the good riders (see:Froome, Chris). But regulated substances could benefit the riders from both a competitive and health standpoint. The issue is the corrupt governance which allows a team like Sky to play by different rules. All most of us want to see is a level playing field. Diego Ulissi and Alessandro Petacchi got banned for literally exactly the same thing that Froone has skated on, and it's all because of money.

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Txzen

Txzen 514

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Eh, I don't know it's all that dire (the death of WADA). A shit-show indeed, though. Month of this crap, and all it took was the ASO threatening to ban his start for this remarkable ruling to occur.

That said, so many of these tests are remarkably qualitative and noisy - it's the nature of the beast. I'm absolutely sure in my heart that Froome/Sky have pushed to the edge and abused his therapeutic exemption. But the study which gave birth to the threshold of the test appears to be somewhat flawed. 

Scientist behind salbutamol threshold admits 'terrible blunder'

The founding scientific work for salbutemol abuse and threshold came from work with swimmers. The urine is even more concentrated in a cyclist at the end of a three hour stage, which makes that threshold determination more tricky. It's not a blood test, and it's not a test detecting the presence of a man-made cytokine (like recombinant EPO) or something which should not be there (a simple yes/no), it's a threshold detection. There's a factor for 'urine dehydration' built into the test, and even with that, he was 19% over the limit. But that's frankly not very inspiring, when you consider the variation of the biology, and however they decided to factor in the dehydration. 

Of course, that would have been a nice way for Sky to attack the finding, but yet we've subjected to months of reports suggesting that their defense would be that a kidney problem caused adverse drug metabolism, which is a fun argument. Not only is it likely utter horseshit, but it would be darn near impossible to re-create, even if they did do in-patient pharmacokinetic test they were supposed to do. I'm sure they'd argue that no resting test would re-create the stress of a stage. The fact that they decided to go the whole Tyler Hamilton Vanishing Twin route is pretty telling, in my opinion.

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 13128

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The fact that the ASO was willing to kick out Froome should be all anyone needs to know about if he is a cheater or not (if you hadn't figured out already he was a cheater). Fuck him and fuck Sky, go anyone else in the field.

Edited by Captain Ron
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52-80

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7 hours ago, Txzen said:

Eh, I don't know it's all that dire (the death of WADA). A shit-show indeed, though. Month of this crap, and all it took was the ASO threatening to ban his start for this remarkable ruling to occur.

That said, so many of these tests are remarkably qualitative and noisy - it's the nature of the beast. I'm absolutely sure in my heart that Froome/Sky have pushed to the edge and abused his therapeutic exemption. But the study which gave birth to the threshold of the test appears to be somewhat flawed. 

Scientist behind salbutamol threshold admits 'terrible blunder'

The founding scientific work for salbutemol abuse and threshold came from work with swimmers. The urine is even more concentrated in a cyclist at the end of a three hour stage, which makes that threshold determination more tricky. It's not a blood test, and it's not a test detecting the presence of a man-made cytokine (like recombinant EPO) or something which should not be there (a simple yes/no), it's a threshold detection. There's a factor for 'urine dehydration' built into the test, and even with that, he was 19% over the limit. But that's frankly not very inspiring, when you consider the variation of the biology, and however they decided to factor in the dehydration. 

Of course, that would have been a nice way for Sky to attack the finding, but yet we've subjected to months of reports suggesting that their defense would be that a kidney problem caused adverse drug metabolism, which is a fun argument. Not only is it likely utter horseshit, but it would be darn near impossible to re-create, even if they did do in-patient pharmacokinetic test they were supposed to do. I'm sure they'd argue that no resting test would re-create the stress of a stage. The fact that they decided to go the whole Tyler Hamilton Vanishing Twin route is pretty telling, in my opinion.

the official way to dispute an AAF finding.... prove it with a pharmacokinetic study.  and you know, they had the fucking off-season to do it.  

except they didnt.  because they'd rather do it with a gang of lawyers instead.

and why didnt WADA demand the CPMS?  because sky convinced them its not possible to re-create 3 weeks of hard racing to simulate those exact conditions.

well no fucking shit.  what about everyone else's results?  because he isnt the only poofer in the race.  what about previous years race?  or did he just magically have the perfect storm of asthma attacks on the most crucial stages in the most crucial races and still perform enough to win.

 

Quote

 

Instead, WADA accepted claims and evidence submitted that Froome had been ill, taken higher doses of his asthma medication and that some dietary supplements and some of the medicines he took to treat his infection could have interacted with salbutamol to spark a higher level in his urine.


 

crazy coincidink!!! 

 

fuck UCI, fuck WADA, and fuck this race

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Txzen

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It's not surprising that this happened, more so that it didn't happen for others busted previously for the same infraction.

The main issue is that there's too much scientific grey area in the salbutemol test, which was so easily exploited by Sky. The biology is too complicated for such a stringent failure line. It's easy to get over the limit without really abusing the drug. Worth a read.

salbutamol.jpg

The second issue is that even from their press release, WADA quotes the rule to say that they need the CPKS to prove that this wasn't an attempt to gain advantage, but then accept that there are all these mitigating circumstances which render the CPKS unnecessary. This should open the flood gate to any challenge in the future for salbutemol, as they basically quoted the rule and then decided it was invalid. What's the purpose for a rule if it is then thrown out in the face of scrutiny.

"Based on a number of factors that are specific to the case of Mr. Froome -- including, in particular, a significant increase in dose, over a short period prior to the doping control, in connection with a documented illness; as well as, demonstrated within-subject variability in the excretion of Salbutamol -- WADA concluded that the sample result was not inconsistent with the ingestion of inhaled Salbutamol within the permitted maximum dose.

Third, TUE exemptions are off the charts. Without it, we wouldn't be here. 

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G650

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16 hours ago, Txzen said:

Eh, I don't know it's all that dire (the death of WADA). A shit-show indeed, though. Month of this crap, and all it took was the ASO threatening to ban his start for this remarkable ruling to occur.

That said, so many of these tests are remarkably qualitative and noisy - it's the nature of the beast. I'm absolutely sure in my heart that Froome/Sky have pushed to the edge and abused his therapeutic exemption. But the study which gave birth to the threshold of the test appears to be somewhat flawed. 

Scientist behind salbutamol threshold admits 'terrible blunder'

The founding scientific work for salbutemol abuse and threshold came from work with swimmers. The urine is even more concentrated in a cyclist at the end of a three hour stage, which makes that threshold determination more tricky. It's not a blood test, and it's not a test detecting the presence of a man-made cytokine (like recombinant EPO) or something which should not be there (a simple yes/no), it's a threshold detection. There's a factor for 'urine dehydration' built into the test, and even with that, he was 19% over the limit. But that's frankly not very inspiring, when you consider the variation of the biology, and however they decided to factor in the dehydration. 

Of course, that would have been a nice way for Sky to attack the finding, but yet we've subjected to months of reports suggesting that their defense would be that a kidney problem caused adverse drug metabolism, which is a fun argument. Not only is it likely utter horseshit, but it would be darn near impossible to re-create, even if they did do in-patient pharmacokinetic test they were supposed to do. I'm sure they'd argue that no resting test would re-create the stress of a stage. The fact that they decided to go the whole Tyler Hamilton Vanishing Twin route is pretty telling, in my opinion.

 

Oh I agree this isn't the death of WADA. They will just go back to prosecuting those without the means to defend themselves, like Cardoso.

 

The overriding issue, as it always has been, is every time the UCI or WADA could help cycling's credibiity, they go 180 degrees away and make it ten times worse. At some point it's just worthless to have any anti doping.

I mean, the guy (Fitch) who did the test, says Froome can't be prosecuted, also says Petacchi shouldn't have been. Didn't stop WADA and the UCI for banning him and crowing about their own righteousness in fighting doping. What a joke.

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G650

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21 minutes ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

Well I'm up at 5AM to watch the TDF.  Coincidentally because I may have ruptured a disk yesterday riding my own bike.  Too much pain to sleep.

Don't forget to enter NBC's Fantasy TDF.  It's quick and easy.

Ouch. Heal up man

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G650

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With Thomas chafing to win, if he drops another 5 minutes on Froome in stage 9 we could see some real infighting on Sky.

 

Was bummed to see Bernal crash though, that kid is gonna be a star one day.

 

So Uran, Bardet, Martin, TVG, Nibali, Valverde, Fulgsang, Thomas, Roglic and Landa all made it through. 50 seconds up on Froome, Porte andYates already. Dumoulin made it too, with the TTT he could actually threaten this year, though after the Giro I'm skeptical. 

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Bevo

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7 hours ago, G650 said:

With Thomas chafing to win, if he drops another 5 minutes on Froome in stage 9 we could see some real infighting on Sky.

 

Was bummed to see Bernal crash though, that kid is gonna be a star one day.

 

So Uran, Bardet, Martin, TVG, Nibali, Valverde, Fulgsang, Thomas, Roglic and Landa all made it through. 50 seconds up on Froome, Porte andYates already. Dumoulin made it too, with the TTT he could actually threaten this year, though after the Giro I'm skeptical. 

Quintana lost a lot of time.

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idigTexas

idigTexas 2330

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11 hours ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

Well I'm up at 5AM to watch the TDF.  Coincidentally because I may have ruptured a disk yesterday riding my own bike.  Too much pain to sleep.

Don't forget to enter NBC's Fantasy TDF.  It's quick and easy.

I don't have ruptures, but have two herniated disks, and have been off the bike for over a month now.  Going apeshit from cabin fever.

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Knoxtnhorn

Knoxtnhorn 6290

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The end was awesome.  Can't believe they didn't have a camera on Froome.  Looked like he went over a sign.  

Sprinters are nuts.  I have no problem descending at 50+ miles an hour, or crowds, cobblestones, etc... But, I'd draw the line at going 40+ with bikers all around me.  I did a crit once.  Once.  That was enough for me.  I didn't have a huge issue with wrecking; I was just afraid I'd screw up my line and cause others to wreck.

The back issue really sucks because I, obviously, can't get in to see my doc for a few days.  Went to an emergency clinic and they're apparently averse to prescribing anything that would actually help with the pain.  I was given a muscle relaxer, anti-inflammatory, and Tramadol.  Don't work for shit.  Which is why I am again up typing after midnight.

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Txzen

Txzen 514

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Nairo can’t catch a break, and that three leaders thing is really working out well for Movistar. Sheesh. And Porte - guy must have done something wrong in a previous life as bad luck follows him  

Heck of a day for a ‘boring’ stage. 

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Bevo

Bevo 13870

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17 hours ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

The end was awesome.  Can't believe they didn't have a camera on Froome.  Looked like he went over a sign.  

Sprinters are nuts.  I have no problem descending at 50+ miles an hour, or crowds, cobblestones, etc... But, I'd draw the line at going 40+ with bikers all around me.  I did a crit once.  Once.  That was enough for me.  I didn't have a huge issue with wrecking; I was just afraid I'd screw up my line and cause others to wreck.

The back issue really sucks because I, obviously, can't get in to see my doc for a few days.  Went to an emergency clinic and they're apparently averse to prescribing anything that would actually help with the pain.  I was given a muscle relaxer, anti-inflammatory, and Tramadol.  Don't work for shit.  Which is why I am again up typing after midnight.

Yeah, I think it was Georgia that just passed a law requiring all medical providers to search the database to make sure the patient isn't a drug seeker. In the future, for honest MDs, prescribing opioids won't be worth the trouble.

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Bevo

Bevo 13870

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2 hours ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

No prob with the database; however, I don't understand how it would adversely affect me as I haven't been prescribed an opioid in over 3 years.

I'm in Texas so I don't know the rules in Tennessee (I have a friend in Murfreesboro though so maybe I'll ask him since we talk all the time anyway). But, in general, physicians are sick of having to jump through hoops and then questioned (and possibly attacked) when opioids are inadvertently given to drug seekers. It is much easier to just prescribe 800mg ibuprofen and maybe tramadol and just be done with it. There has been a ton of publicity lately about the opioid epidemic and what you experienced is the backlash from the publicity.

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Knoxtnhorn

Knoxtnhorn 6290

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As of last summer I'm back in TX but I'm pretty sure TN has the same laws ad GA.  What kind of socks is that I want to call my new (TX) doc tomorrow and ask for some relief, but I'm worried that by he's goinf to get the wrong idea.  My TN doc would always just give me a steroid pack and 20 hydros which got me through the week.

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G650

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I actually love watching the TTT. I know am in the minority though. 

 

They have been in the Tour sporadically. I remember Lance yelling at Contador in 09 when they were both on Astana during the TTT.

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G650

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5 minutes ago, tx ind said:

Yeah, kinda surprised they beat Sky

Oh, I'm not. They are far and away the best TT team in existence. Sunweb is probably second, they disappointed a bit today, but they were without Kelderman.

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Knoxtnhorn

Knoxtnhorn 6290

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Perhaps I'm the only one that doesn't like TTT.

I don't care for the ITT either.  I'll watch every second of the mountain stages, watch the flat stages casually (unless there are cobblestones), and generally ignore TTT.  Though, every once in awhile they're pretty good.  A few years ago, an American won the Tour of California on the last time trial stage - Leiphaimer.  Plus, who can forget Lemond?  Though I wonder if that one was on TV.

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Txzen

Txzen 514

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Someday, Movistar will have to realize the importance of TT, let alone the ITT. Tough to see Nairo continue to go backwards. 

Froome gained a little on some of his rivals, but it's interesting to see him still down at this point. The cobbles stage could be intense, but I would bet some of the interim stages with those Cat 3/4 rollers might also be interesting as people try to make up some lost time. 

I wonder what form NIbali has. I'm sure he's not happy about losing his advantage due to the TTT.

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