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Posted
  On 8/10/2023 at 4:45 PM, BrickHorn said:

Also, a common refrain from NCAA soccer coaches is: “My job is to win.” That puts us at a disadvantage compared to European clubs, whose academies have a mandate to develop players.

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we have a well-documented widely available system here in the US that parents hate because it is boring and provides negative immediate gratification

It's called Coerver System named after former Dutch great Wiel Coerver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiel_Coerver

 

https://dt5602vnjxv0c.cloudfront.net/portals/6102/images/pyramid.png

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Posted
  On 8/10/2023 at 1:19 PM, Kermit said:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/38165137/uswnt-big-mouths-slammed-netherlands-star-beerensteyn
 

  Quote
  Quote

From the first moment I heard they were out, I was just like, 'Yes! Bye!" the Juventus attacker told reporters on Thursday. "From the start of the tournament, they had really big mouths and were already talking about the final.

"I was thinking you first have to show it on the pitch before you talk [big]. I'm not being rude in that way, I still have a lot of respect for them, but now they're out of the tournament, and for me, it's a relief, and for them, it's something they will have to take with them in the future.

"Don't start to talk about something that is far away. I hope they will learn from that."

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I’m a connoisseur of pettiness, but what the fuck has this motherfucker won?

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Posted
  On 8/9/2023 at 11:52 PM, Hagbard Celine said:

the following is from the deseret news so the fascist false-equivalencies have to be taken with a grain of salt

but i'm posting this for those upthread who tried to maintain that "Rapinoe is a midfielder"

she came on for a striker that went 0 for 12

she took the roster spot of a 28-year-old striker

we didn't take a backup #9

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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Smith not only was a backup #9, she should have been our starting #9 on league form.

When Rapinoe came on, Smith slid over to the #9 and Morgan came off  

Rodman should have been our first backup #9.

Rapinoe shouldn’t have been on the team, that was on Vlatko. Rapinoe shouldn’t have been the winger sub, that was on Vlatko. The tactics should have been to go at the Dutch left back all game long, but they only occasionally went at that girl on accident (almost) and that was on Vlatko.

The USWNT gave up TWO shots on goal all tournament. One vs the Dutch (goal) and one vs the Swedes (save). Analytics showed that we should have gone down our right side all day long, but Vlatko dictated otherwise.

 

 

  On 8/10/2023 at 12:12 AM, Braff Zacklin said:

I believe Rapinoe distinguished herself as a winger, which would make her a forward, correct? So not a midfielder, but not a striker, either.

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Rapinoe was a left winger. Sometimes that is considered a forward, sometimes a midfielder . Considering she no longer has legs to play defense, at this point she would be a forward.

 

  On 8/10/2023 at 8:33 PM, Hagbard Celine said:

in proper parlance, she WAS a "left half"

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Back in the day.

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Posted

You guys are debating semantics. You just watch the games you know what role she was asked to play.

 

Today's NY Times The Daily nails exactly why the world is catching up to US in soccer. The salient points hit around 21:00 where they outline how women's soccer has changed in Europe. Spoiler alert - it's the clubs.

BTW - for you losers who think Rapinoe is a loser the first half is all for you because it's basically a breakdown of exactly why Rapinoe was the social force and winner she was.

 

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Posted

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

solar-u16-champs.jpeg    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

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Posted (edited)
  On 8/11/2023 at 2:44 PM, alincoln said:

... There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). ...

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Well yeah, look at the studio

Women's World Cup Gets Big TV Push as U.S. Team Seeks Three-Peat Win -  Variety

 

The two on the right are LITERALLY the old guard. Also, they are the worst humans of them.

Edited by Captain Ron
That wasn't irony
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Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 2:44 PM, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

solar-u16-champs.jpeg    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

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Facts. All of it. Even the team we brought wasn't lacking in ability. 

Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 2:44 PM, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

solar-u16-champs.jpeg    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

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You make a ton of good points, but here's the USWNT's finish in every World Cup so far:

1, 3, 1, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 9

Spot the outlier. I don't think it's overblown at all to say that's a MASSIVE underperformance relative to the standard and the program needs a lot of soul searching.

Clearly the rest of the world is getting much better, but that's just an excuse. Any dominant organization in any field has competitors coming for it. Either you act accordingly at all times, or you get complacent and eventually caught and overtaken. Where has the sense of urgency been hiding?

Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 2:44 PM, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.

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The Sweden game isn’t the data point most of us are reacting to. That was a low-probability outcome in a sport that often rewards the lesser team in any given game.

In this tournament, our performances against the Netherlands and Portugal were far more concerning. And it’s been clear for some time that European teams were catching up by developing more skill and playing more sophisticated soccer. The Euros last summer were eye-opening. 

Other than that, I pretty much agree with the points you raise. We need to shift our development approach. Relying on profit-driven suburban youth clubs and colleges - both of which have short-term incentives focused on winning rather than player development - is going to drive us further in the hole. ODP is supposed to solve this problem, but it’s viewed by many as a waste of time and a glorified weed-out funnel that exists solely to identify talent by process of elimination (similar to Austin FC’s youth academy). 

 

Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 3:15 PM, BrickHorn said:

Other than that, I pretty much agree with the points you raise. We need to shift our development approach. Relying on profit-driven suburban youth clubs and colleges - both of which have short-term incentives focused on winning rather than player development - is going to drive us further in the hole. ODP is supposed to solve this problem, but it’s viewed by many as a waste of time and a glorified weed-out funnel that exists solely to identify talent by process of elimination (similar to Austin FC’s youth academy). 

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Do you have direct experience with an ECNL training environment or are you just regurgitating the outdated media talking points regarding elite club soccer? ODP has not been viewed by anyone as a solution to anything for 20 years.

Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 3:47 PM, alincoln said:

Do you have direct experience with an ECNL training environment or are you just regurgitating the outdated media talking points regarding elite club soccer? ODP has not been viewed by anyone as a solution to anything for 20 years.

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I’m not interested in starting a pissing match about the different leagues and clubs, so I’ll keep this purposefully generic. My kids are not in ECNL, but they play with and against kids that are. Some clubs are better at development than others, but there is no question that there are a significant number of clubs in the top leagues (ECNL and GA on the girls side) focused on winning now and making money. And it shows.

Posted (edited)

I will add: there are also youth clubs in the US that focus on developing players and do it well. Some are in ECNL, others are not. 

Edited by BrickHorn
Posted (edited)

Oh I must be mistaken, they played for the US, didnt have personal ambitions, didnt leverage politics for personal gain, were completely cohesive, and have a lesser share of revenue than men while bringing in way more money than them via viewership. WHOOPSIE. Silly me. How misogynistic of me.

Edited by MisterP
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Posted (edited)
  On 8/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, MisterP said:

How to sum up the girls on USWNT. Whores who use their situation for money. Much like marriage. Much like divorce. Same shit, men somehow pay the price.

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Thats bullshit.
 

If anything, they were incredibly smart and opportunistic. The American way. We are all whores. 
 

They simply capitalized by reading the room and knowing they would have the full support of the press in extorting USA soccer regardless of the facts.  They lost on all counts in court (except hotel accommodations), and then doubled down with a willing press core and got them to cave anyway. They made as much as the winner of the WWC before they played a game. Even if you don’t approve you have to admit it was a great play. 
 

That’s hard core America 23’, smart, manipulative and capitalistic. 

Edited by ChickenSandwich
Posted (edited)
  On 8/11/2023 at 11:57 PM, ChickenSandwich said:

Thats bullshit.
 

If anything, they were incredibly smart and opportunistic. The American way. We are all whores. 
 

They simply capitalized by reading the room and knowing they would have the full support of the press in extorting USA soccer regardless of the facts.  They lost on all counts in court (except hotel accommodations), and then doubled down with a willing press core and got them to cave anyway. They made as much as the winner of the WWC before they played a game. Even if you don’t approve you have to admit it was a great play. 
 

That’s hard core America 23’, smart, manipulative and capitalistic. 

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Fair play Chicken Sandwich. Doesnt mean they arent overpaid under performing cunts. Which I guess is the amercian way innit mate. 

Edited by MisterP
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Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, MisterP said:

How to sum up the girls on USWNT. Whores who use their situation for money. Much like marriage. Much like divorce. Same shit, men somehow pay the price.

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I’m sorry you married a whore/

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Posted (edited)
  On 8/11/2023 at 2:44 PM, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

solar-u16-champs.jpeg    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

Expand  

Damn, Solar carries 19 girls (and two keepers) on their top team? That's crazy for playing time purposes, but maybe they've got something right because the training is where all the development is at anyway. 100% of those girls will at least play college even if they get Pulisic minutes for Solar U12. My son plays on the top ECNL team for his age for LSC (they went away from N/S teams to Red/Black) but I'm slightly concerned he won't be able to keep up the rigor before he gets to make a choice on his future with the sport. The women's developmental teams are still in good hands, IMO, even after the GA went away. American academies are really good for the women's game, better than the mens IMO.

Edited by Bottlecap
Posted

Multiple things can be true at the same time.

- I support Team USA in international competition in whatever sport.

- I am sorry for the ladies they are out. There's a lot of new talent that I'm rooting for.

- I am satisfied that Rapinoe flamed out in such a poetic fashion. She is one of the most unlikable sports figures in a while for undeserved hubris. I'm not gloating about it, but karma was served there.

- This squad was not as good as they (or the media) made them out to be. They were lazy (never seemed to step to the ball and were constantly beaten to 50/50 balls), they did not move as a team, and there were countless times where they just dribbled straight into traffic, thinking they could just wish their way through - but always just lost the ball. Watching any of the remaining nations still on the pitch show the difference.

- The manager sucked, but there was still enough talent on the pitch for the US to have overcome.


Am I glad they're out of this tournament? No.

Was that a deserved exit? Maybe... maybe not.

Was it representative of their play and effort? Yeah, I think so.

The gleeful gloating at their exit is unbecoming, especially by those with a single focus... but not allowing criticism of the impacts of the unlikable factors in this edition of the USWNT on the rest of the team isn't a good look either.

Multiple things, etc.



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Posted
  On 8/12/2023 at 11:18 AM, RamjetFDO said:

Multiple things can be true at the same time.

- I support Team USA in international competition in whatever sport.

- I am sorry for the ladies they are out. There's a lot of new talent that I'm rooting for.

- I am satisfied that Rapinoe flamed out in such a poetic fashion. She is one of the most unlikable sports figures in a while for undeserved hubris. I'm not gloating about it, but karma was served there.

- This squad was not as good as they (or the media) made them out to be. They were lazy (never seemed to step to the ball and were constantly beaten to 50/50 balls), they did not move as a team, and there were countless times where they just dribbled straight into traffic, thinking they could just wish their way through - but always just lost the ball. Watching any of the remaining nations still on the pitch show the difference.

- The manager sucked, but there was still enough talent on the pitch for the US to have overcome.


Am I glad they're out of this tournament? No.

Was that a deserved exit? Maybe... maybe not.

Was it representative of their play and effort? Yeah, I think so.

The gleeful gloating at their exit is unbecoming, especially by those with a single focus... but not allowing criticism of the impacts of the unlikable factors in this edition of the USWNT on the rest of the team isn't a good look either.

Multiple things, etc.


 

Expand  

This is how to be both critical of their play as well as not like players. Not liking individual players is fine and acceptable, so long as it doesn’t come with the misogynistic dog whistle undertones.

I disagree with the assertions on Rapinoe, but there are at least discussions to have here on her likability. When you come with crap about not meeting your definition of what that person should be, then your argument is in bad faith. And that is what I have a problem with.

Like you say there are a lot of thing here.

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Posted
  On 8/12/2023 at 5:57 AM, Bottlecap said:

Damn, Solar carries 19 girls (and two keepers) on their top team? That's crazy for playing time purposes, but maybe they've got something right because the training is where all the development is at anyway. 100% of those girls will at least play college even if they get Pulisic minutes for Solar U12. My son plays on the top ECNL team for his age for LSC (they went away from N/S teams to Red/Black) but I'm slightly concerned he won't be able to keep up the rigor before he gets to make a choice on his future with the sport. The women's developmental teams are still in good hands, IMO, even after the GA went away. American academies are really good for the women's game, better than the mens IMO.

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ECNL rosters are 18 so I would guess that one (if not more) of the girls in the pic are injured (par for the course unfortunately in girls soccer where the frequency of significant injuries is insane).  With two goalies, that is only 6 field subs which isn't that much when you are playing in the heat with games every day in these national tournaments.  The CBs almost always play the entire game so you have 6 subs for the other 8 field positions. Also in ECNL, you can't come back in until the next half when you are subbed so it's not like HS and college soccer with the dumb constant subbing. 

Posted
  On 8/12/2023 at 11:18 AM, RamjetFDO said:

I am satisfied that Rapinoe flamed out in such a poetic fashion. She is one of the most unlikable sports figures in a while for undeserved hubris. I'm not gloating about it, but karma was served there

Expand  

If there is one thing people like even more than a winner it’s taking others down a peg or two, especially crapping on athletes that have been brash during their success.  Megan’s soccer performance history is undeniable.  Being involved in this WC and her performance will cost her big money over the next few years.  
 

I don’t think the issue was lack of individual player skill.  Sadly it appears that success of the NWSL(separation from US Soccer) reduces opportunities for the USWNT to develop chemistry.  They aren’t good enough to just show up and/or play unfamiliar positions in the WC.

Posted
  On 8/12/2023 at 10:03 PM, Incredulity said:

If there is one thing people like even more than a winner it’s taking others down a peg or two, especially crapping on athletes that have been brash during their success.  Megan’s soccer performance history is undeniable.  Being involved in this WC and her performance will cost her big money over the next few years.  
 

I don’t think the issue was lack of individual player skill.  Sadly it appears that success of the NWSL(separation from US Soccer) reduces opportunities for the USWNT to develop chemistry.  They aren’t good enough to just show up and/or play unfamiliar positions in the WC.

Expand  

I'm going to answer your response (since you quoted me) piece by piece ... please don't take offense, but there are some misinterpretations about what/how I said what I said that I want to address.

  Quote

If there is one thing people like even more than a winner it’s taking others down a peg or two, especially crapping on athletes that have been brash during their success.

Expand  

Not even remotely what I was doing.  I specifically and carefully used the word "hubris" for a reason.

Michael Jordan was brash.  Mike Tyson was brash.  They deserved praise for their success and didn't elevate themselves beyond the sport to the distraction of their performance while they were still playing.

Megan Rapinoe was a good woman's soccer player early in her career, as was the entire USWNT, until the rest of the world started to significantly catch up in this WC cycle (as has been discussed in this thread).  Once that happened, along with her age and declining ability to compete against both younger and ever-increasingly more talented players both on the USWNT and on other teams, Rapinoe's continuing to believe her media (and self-produced) puffery and expect everyone to believe she was still performing at the level of her early 20s was off-putting.  It's doubtful anyone (especially with 20/20 hindsight) believes she was a good choice for this cycle's USWNT.  I didn't even bring up her external antics, which she has every right to do -- but I have every right to not agree with her.  It has nothing to do with (as mentioned earlier) "misogyny", but rather my personal opinion that representing your country is an honor and if you don't want to do it - don't do it.  But, don't *trash* it on a public stage and then still expect not only to represent your country, but to somehow be glorified for it by the very supporters you belittle.  Nothing to do with her gender - I'd feel 100% the same way if Christian Pulisic did what she did.

  Quote

 Megan’s soccer performance history is undeniable.

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Undeniably both good and bad (as mentioned above).  Her performance on the pitch when she was younger (against differently-skilled talent) was very good for the USWNT.  Her performance on the pitch against younger and more-talented players was ... "less than" very good.

  Quote

I don’t think the issue was lack of individual player skill.

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100% disagree with you, in that I include "mental" (soccer IQ) along with "physical" when talking about player skill.  The continued insistence of dribbling directly into defenders and losing the ball was an example of poor mental skill, with the hubris that their physical skill would prevail.  Again, 20/20 hindsight is pretty undeniable about that one.  Plus, there was a *noticeable* difference in physical skills between this year's USWNT and other teams when looking at passes, crosses, free kicks, etc.  Ours just seemed to be underpowered, misplaced, and just "less" all around.

  Quote

They aren’t good enough to just show up and/or play unfamiliar positions in the WC.

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Seems to contradict your previous statement, but I agree with this one.

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Posted
  On 8/12/2023 at 11:52 PM, RamjetFDO said:

Not even remotely what I was doing

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All my comments are offered just as a personal opinion/conversation , no offense taken and none intended from me.

I wasn’t trying to accuse you of that.  Just a general comment on people.  

  On 8/12/2023 at 11:52 PM, RamjetFDO said:

100% disagree with you, in that I include "mental" (soccer IQ) along with "physical" when talking about player skill.  The continued insistence of dribbling directly into defenders and losing the ball was an example of poor mental skill, with the hubris that their physical skill would prevail.

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My view on this is they weren’t prepared to play as a team.  Totally agree the execution on the field sucked.  But it’s not because they are over matched physically or a complete lack of fundamental soccer skills.  Players playing positions they don’t regularly play with teammates they haven’t developed a rhythm with.  
The rest of the world is definitely catching up in women’s soccer.  I think the US can continue to be successful in WC. Just not as dominant.

 

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Posted



  On 8/13/2023 at 12:43 AM, Incredulity said:

The rest of the world is definitely catching up in women’s soccer.  I think the US can continue to be successful in WC. Just not as dominant.
 


Bueno. I think we're on the same page... and I want to see the next generation represent and get that fifth star!
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Posted (edited)
  On 8/11/2023 at 10:37 PM, Anastasis said:

Youth soccer in this country is largely focused around extracting as much money as possible from their marks. And there are lots of marks out there. 

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That is certainly an issue. In the US, youth soccer is a business that makes money one way: registration fees. So clubs are financially incentivized to attract any player whose parents will pay thousands of dollars a year.

My understanding is that European clubs view the youth academies as a developmental pipeline. They generate money through transfer fees. They don’t sell training services to parents; they sell player contracts to professional club teams. So the Euro clubs are financially incentivized to attract the most talented players. 

Whether clubs like Solar do a good job developing players or not, they are fighting an uphill battle on the fundamental economics that European clubs and players just don’t have to deal with.

And btw, Solar is a huge outlier and not a great indicator of development nationwide. It’s probably the most successful club in the US on the girls’ side. So whether or not Solar is doing things the right way, that doesn’t diminish the criticism of US youth club soccer generally, which is still saddled with the pay-to-play model and its consequences (pressure to win rather than develop, unnecessary travel, narrow pool of players, etc.)

Edited by BrickHorn
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Posted
  On 8/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, MisterP said:

How to sum up the girls on USWNT. Whores who use their situation for money. Much like marriage. Much like divorce. Same shit, men somehow pay the price.

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Somebody hasn't gotten laid in quite some time. 

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Posted (edited)
  On 8/14/2023 at 11:53 PM, Deej said:

Did you tell her she's just a whore after your money, or was she just a whore you paid money?

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She's 21 from the nicest area of Austin going to SMU. What do you think she is after in life?

And yes, she loves a hand around her throat degrading her. But thanks for playing the game!

Edited by MisterP
Posted (edited)
  On 8/11/2023 at 2:44 PM, alincoln said:

Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality.

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I’ve been thinking more about your posts on ECNL and development, and it’s become clear that Solar is the exception that proves the rule.

Check out this Soccer Wire ranking of the Top 50 club players from October 2020. (It actually includes 53 players, due to ties.) Solar has the most entries on the list at 15.

Think about that. Out of approximately 250 clubs in ECNL and GA, one club in one city produced almost 30% of the top players. 

That’s amazing and kudos to Solar. But it’s also an indictment of the system. In a healthy development pyramid where talent is being trained in clubs across the country, you wouldn’t see such dramatic talent concentrations. The best of the best clubs might develop 2 or 3 of the Top 50 players. But the other 249 clubs would do their jobs almost as well, and top players would emerge nationwide.

That’s not what happens. Solar is the big dog, but the rest of the Top 50 is dominated by only a handful of clubs (12 in total):

1. Solar (15)

2. Sporting Blue Valley (10)

3. Tophat (6)

4. Utah Royals (5)

5. TSJ FC VA (4)

6. STA (3)

7T. Challenge SC; Colorado Rush; Oklahoma Energy; Richmond United (2)

11T. City SC; Houston Dash (1)

The top two clubs alone developed 25 of the Top 53. The top five clubs alone developed 40 of 53. That is: a mere 2% of clubs in the two elite leagues developed nearly 80% of the top players. 

That is alarming. A tiny handful of ECNL and GA clubs are doing an excellent job developing players, but the other 90%+ are falling well short. 

That is consistent with what I’ve seen from ECNL and GA in our region. 

Edited by BrickHorn
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Posted

Lulz. That list is from the COVID year when CA (which produces the most elite players in the country by a mile), the NW, the Midwest and the Northeast didn't play.   

 

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Posted

In looking more into that list, it only tracks players from teams who used instat which was limited to GA teams that were playing and a couple ECNL teams.  It's basically worthless as a tool to evaluate the depth of elite club soccer.

Here is the current U-17 national team where no club had more than 2 representatives and there are players from 16 states:

  • Mateya Dessieux (Tophat; Knoxville, Tenn.)
  • Sonoma Kasica (Florida Premier FC; St. Petersburg, Fla.)
  • Aven Alvarez (North Carolina Courage Academy; New Hill, N.C.)
  • Elizabeth Boamah (Albion SC; San Diego, Calif.)
  • Jordyn Bugg (San Diego Surf SC; El Cajon, Calif.)
  • Nicki Fraser (Real Colorado; Highlands Ranch, Colo.)
  • Reese Klein (Florida United SC; Cooper City, Fla.)
  • Hope Munson (Utah Avalanche; Salt Lake City, Utah)
  • Tanna Schornstein (San Diego Surf SC; San Diego, Calif.)
  • Carla Small (IMG Academy; Waipahu, Hawaii)
  • Nawreen Ahmad (Virginia Union FC; Falls Church, VA)
  • Kendall Bodak (New England FC; Monson, Mass.)
  • Shaela Bradley (Portland Thorns Academy; La Center, Wash.)
  • Isabela Engle (Minnesota Thunder Academy; Edina, Minn.)
  • Claire Hutton (World Class FC; Bethlehem, N.Y.)
  • Neely Kerr (Tophat SC; Buford, Ga.)
  • Linda Ullmark (Western New York Flash; Buffalo, N.Y.)
  • Emeri Adames (Solar SC; Red Oak, Tex.)
  • Sophia Bradley (PDA; Wayne, N.J.)
  • Ava McDonald (FC Dallas; Allen, Tex.)
  • Miri O'Donnell (FC Bay Area Surf; San Ramon, Calif.)
  • Jaden Thomas (FC Dallas; Dallas, Texas)
  • Amalia Villarreal (Michigan Jaguars FC; Lansing, Mich.)

And here is the current u-15 national team where no club had more than 2 representatives and there are players from 15 states:

  • Evan O'Steen (Solar SC; Grapevine, Texas)
  • Liesel Tetmeyer (Sting Austin; Round Rock, Texas)
  • Pearl Cecil (San Diego Surf SC; Encinitas, Calif.)
  • Natalie Chudowsky (New York SC; Westport, Conn.)
  • Izzy Dalke (St. Louis Scott Gallagher; Belleville, Ill.)
  • Makenna Holub (Eastside FC; Redmond, Wash.)
  • Michaela Panella (Western New York Flash; East Amherst, N. Y.)
  • Mia Villalpando (San Diego Surf SC; Bonita, Calif.)
  • Vienna Whipple (Crossfire Premier SC; Bellevue, Wash.)
  • Scottie Antonucci (Legends FC; Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.)
  • Reese Canada (Michigan Hawks; Fenton, Mich.)
  • Sierra Dupre (Pittsburgh Riverhounds SC; Pittsburgh, Pa.)
  • Riley Kennedy (North Carolina Courage; Holly Springs, N.C.)
  • Jaiden Rodriguez (San Diego Surf SC; San Diego, Calif.)
  • Chloe Sadler (La Roca FC; Hyde Park, Utah)
  • Ashlyn Anderson (Indy Premier SC; Carmel, Ind.)
  • Micayla Johnson (Michigan Hawks; Troy, Mich.)
  • Ella Kral (Lamorinda SC; Berkeley, Calif.)
  • Paige Pasinski (SC del Sol; Phoenix, Ariz.)
  • Ava Stack (Concorde Fire; Atlanta, Ga.)
Posted
  On 8/15/2023 at 3:56 PM, alincoln said:

Lulz. That list is from the COVID year when CA (which produces the most elite players in the country by a mile), the NW, the Midwest and the Northeast didn't play.   

 

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Fair enough. Then why aren’t any SA or Austin teams listed? 

And here’s the ECNL-only list from end-of-year 2021. Turns out adding the rest of the country doesn’t make much of a difference. 

1. SUSA Academy (10)

2. Solar (7)

3. Richmond United (6)

4T. Challenge; Penn Fusion; Portland Thorns; Virginia Development Academy (4)

So 39 of the top players come from 7 of 150 ECNL clubs. Only 13 of 150 clubs (fewer than 10%) have at least one player make the Top 50.

I get it. You’re happy with the development you see at the ECNL level. But if you’re basing that on Solar, you’re operating in a bubble that is far from representative of development system-wide. 

Posted
  On 8/15/2023 at 4:14 PM, alincoln said:

In looking more into that list, it only tracks players from teams who used instat which was limited to GA teams that were playing and a couple ECNL teams. 

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Good point. I don’t have access to Top Drawer Soccer, but they publish rankings that would be interesting to see. 

I would expect the concentration to flatten out, but I also expect several clubs will dominate the list and the vast majority won’t appear on the rankings. And I expect that the list of top clubs will be relatively consistent from year to year. 

Posted

The top clubs just have better quality in depth.  Almost all of their starters will receive D-1 offers while only only a handful of players from the next tier of clubs will.  There are at least 100 high quality clubs in the country although 20 or so are at another level.  

The 2023 ECNL national champions came from 5 different states.  

U-13 Slammers (CA)

U-14 PDA (NJ)

U-15 Michigan Hawks

U-16 Solar (TX)

U-17 SLSG (MO)

Posted

True, but if you look at the results you’ll see the same few teams dominated the semis and finals across age groups.

And anyway, focusing on tournament results is beside the point. The question is whether our youth club system is optimizing player development. 

Posted

The development academies attached to MLS & Women’s Soccer League (?) teams will produce the top teams eventually, because they will not cost what the other clubs cost and will focus on developing the players over just winning at all costs..

The clubs will produce college players and a smattering of national team players and the development academies of the pro teams will dominate the national teams starting in the very near future. 

Posted
  On 8/16/2023 at 1:00 AM, Napoleon said:

The development academies attached to MLS & Women’s Soccer League (?) teams will produce the top teams eventually, because they will not cost what the other clubs cost and will focus on developing the players over just winning at all costs..

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Already the case for MLS (the entire U-15 roster from the recent U-15 CONCACAF championships was comprised of MLS academy players).  The NWSL doesn't have enough teams or resources to support an MLS-style academy system.  They play in ECNL or GA and are focused on just competing at that level.  MLS academy rosters consist of players from across the region (on the younger teams) and country (at u-17 and u-19 levels) who live with guest families in the city where the club is located.  NWSL academies are nothing like that.  

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Posted
  On 8/16/2023 at 12:50 PM, alincoln said:

Already the case for MLS (the entire U-15 roster from the recent U-15 CONCACAF championships was comprised of MLS academy players).  The NWSL doesn't have enough teams or resources to support an MLS-style academy system.  They play in ECNL or GA and are focused on just competing at that level.  MLS academy rosters consist of players from across the region (on the younger teams) and country (at u-17 and u-19 levels) who live with guest families in the city where the club is located.  NWSL academies are nothing like that.  

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IMG_6261.thumb.png.e10f5f7145a20e1f611b0b1e6fa15fb7.png

https://www.fcdallas.com/youth/girlshistory

What can you not understand?

Now it is the MLS teams, but the women’s teams will follow suit in the near future. 
 

Pay-to-play clubs will lose their top girls to academies. It’s obvious and is the national and world model for men and now women. 

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Posted

FC Dallas ECNL is pay to pay.  Yes, the best of the best can apply for fee waivers but that is the case for all elite ECNL clubs as mentioned way up thread. There isn't enough money in professional women's soccer in the US to finance girls academies at the level of MLS academies.  MLS academy players cost the clubs around $50K a year per player.  Half of the NWSL teams can barely make payroll and they don't have an NBA to bail them out. 

Elite girls soccer club leadership would love to find this magical pot of gold that you appear to believe exists to eliminate pay to play.  Unfortunately, the possibility of one day breaking the world record transfer fee of $500K for a woman soccer player hasn't proven sufficient to drive investment.     

 

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