USWNT 2023: Journey to a 5th Star

[Hagbard Celine 10864]

5 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Also, a common refrain from NCAA soccer coaches is: “My job is to win.” That puts us at a disadvantage compared to European clubs, whose academies have a mandate to develop players.

we have a well-documented widely available system here in the US that parents hate because it is boring and provides negative immediate gratification

It's called Coerver System named after former Dutch great Wiel Coerver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiel_Coerver

 

[Captain Ron 12876]

14 hours ago, Kermit said:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/38165137/uswnt-big-mouths-slammed-netherlands-star-beerensteyn
 

Quote

From the first moment I heard they were out, I was just like, 'Yes! Bye!" the Juventus attacker told reporters on Thursday. "From the start of the tournament, they had really big mouths and were already talking about the final.

"I was thinking you first have to show it on the pitch before you talk [big]. I'm not being rude in that way, I still have a lot of respect for them, but now they're out of the tournament, and for me, it's a relief, and for them, it's something they will have to take with them in the future.

"Don't start to talk about something that is far away. I hope they will learn from that."

I’m a connoisseur of pettiness, but what the fuck has this motherfucker won?

 

 

[Napoleon 8679]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:52 PM, Hagbard Celine said:

the following is from the deseret news so the fascist false-equivalencies have to be taken with a grain of salt

but i'm posting this for those upthread who tried to maintain that "Rapinoe is a midfielder"

she came on for a striker that went 0 for 12

she took the roster spot of a 28-year-old striker

we didn't take a backup #9

  Reveal hidden contents

U.S. Soccer snubbed Ashley Hatch. In hindsight it didn’t deserve the former BYU star The United States Women’s National Team lost to Sweden in most embarrassing World Cup performance in history.

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[Image: Dick Harmon]

Dick Harmon

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SHARE U.S. Soccer snubbed Ashley Hatch. In hindsight it didn’t deserve the former BYU star

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[Image: United States’ Ashley Hatch reacts after a play against Nigeria during the second half of an international friendly soccer match, Tuesday, Sept. 6, 2022, in Washington. (AP Photo/Julio Cortez)]

 

United States’ Ashley Hatch reacts after a play against Nigeria during the second half of an international friendly soccer match, Tuesday, Sept. 6, 2022, in Washington. (AP Photo/Julio Cortez)

AP

The United States Women’s National Team could have used Ashley Hatch.

In the end, however, the former BYU star should be glad to have been far away from this team’s humiliation.

The four-time World Cup champions made an embarrassing early exit in this year’s tournament in a loss to Sweden on penalty kicks Sunday.

The USA had no offense. No heart. Just politics.

Just like the rest of the time they’d spent on the world stage in this affair.

This team really could have used Hatch, who has proven to be a key cog in creating an efficient attack as a center forward.

When the roster came out earlier this year, the snub of Hatch made headlines across the country because of her National Women’s Soccer League performances, her consistency and her experience.

Wrote CBS Sports about Hatch’s absence back on June 22: “Her omission from the roster may be a head-scratcher for some as they debate who the backup No. 9 will be on the team. She’s been a top scorer in the league, and a frequent part of USWNT camps over the last two years, but is not headed to the tournament.”

Hatch had the resume and time with the team. Also, she probably would have avoided getting mired down on all the garbage dog-and-pony media show this USA team apparently cared more about than the game.

Went nearly four hours of game time without a goal, while leaving at home one of the country’s best goal scorers.

Took a 38-year old forward who didn’t play well, and an 18-year old forward who hardly played, while leaving at home a 28-year old forward in her prime and in form.… https://t.co/aueoojFm2I

— Greg Wrubell (@gregwrubell) August 6, 2023

In 2021 Hatch had a career-best NWSL season with the Washington Spirit, helping her team to the league title and winning the Golden Boot in the same year. This year prior to the World Cup, she played five games with the USWNT, scoring one goal.

In retrospect, the honor and opportunities Hatch would have gained by being part of this team may have been overshadowed by the stain this USA team brought upon itself with its sideshows and disappointment in representing the country.

This was the worst performance by a USA women’s team in World Cup history. 

Why would Hatch want to be a part of that?

Well, she is a competitor, and that fueled her.

But now?

Ashley, be glad you were not part of this stink.

This 2023 team was more concerned with taking selfies, making political statements and fueling the far-left woke virtue-signaling agenda than putting the ball in the net, diving for loose balls or acting like world champions out on the field.

And that’s from at least one former teammate who saw it all coming. 

For what?

Well, for an 18-year old with little experience (Alyssa Thompson) who had rarely played and a 38-year-old (Megan Rapinoe) who didn’t play well, according to Greg Wrubell, voice of BYU soccer. 

Hatch, Wrubell accurately pointed out, at 28 years of age, in the prime of her career was left home — unselected.

Stupidity.

This will be the legacy of the 2023 U.S. women, a conglomeration of uninspired, self-interest peddling athletes who were obviously more concerned with their political activism than performing.

By the time the USWNT lost to Sweden, it had been four hours of goal-less USA offense — something everyone got used to witnessing from this team.

Related

• U.S. loses to Sweden in earliest Women’s World Cup exit ever. What went wrong?

Fightless, uninspired, gutless players going through the motions of disrespectful kneeling when their country’s national anthem was played.

Why can’t we just watch sports these days?  Why do we have to have political agendas shoved down our throats?

Former team member Carlie Lloyd could see it all coming a long time ago.

Lloyd, who has been providing commentary of the World Cup on Fox Sports, ripped into the USWNT after lackluster performances against Portugal and the Netherlands.

She had promised to be candid and honest in her analysis. Boy, was she.

According to Yahoo Sports,“ She (Lloyd) ripped into players and “question[ed] their heart” at halftime of a 1-1 draw with the Netherlands last Thursday. After Tuesday’s draw with Portugal, she called them “lackluster” and “uninspiring.”

“Then she saw the postgame videos, of players dancing and taking selfies with fans, and “I have never witnessed something like that,” she said on air. “There’s a difference between being respectful of the fans and saying hello to your family, but to be dancing, to be smiling” — she was disturbed.”

Then came the loss to Sweden — a copycat act of sputtering soccer from the most storied team in the world. 

Said Lloyd, “Like, I lived it; I saw it,” she told Yahoo Sports.

“I’m basically just saying what I see because I was a part of it. And the last couple years, when I was retiring, you could just feel that love and that hunger and that humbleness just kinda dissipating a bit.”

“It was not a good environment,” she added. “You didn’t see people fighting on the field, fighting for every loose ball, sprinting. And that is a reason why we didn’t win the Olympics.”

Yes, the USWNT could have used Hatch, sans the social activism this team made a priority as it circled the drain.

If not for Hatch’s offensive skills, it really could have used her common sense and perspective.

This team didn’t deserve Hatch. 

 

Smith not only was a backup #9, she should have been our starting #9 on league form.

When Rapinoe came on, Smith slid over to the #9 and Morgan came off  

Rodman should have been our first backup #9.

Rapinoe shouldn’t have been on the team, that was on Vlatko. Rapinoe shouldn’t have been the winger sub, that was on Vlatko. The tactics should have been to go at the Dutch left back all game long, but they only occasionally went at that girl on accident (almost) and that was on Vlatko.

The USWNT gave up TWO shots on goal all tournament. One vs the Dutch (goal) and one vs the Swedes (save). Analytics showed that we should have gone down our right side all day long, but Vlatko dictated otherwise.

 

 

On 8/9/2023 at 7:12 PM, Braff Zacklin said:

I believe Rapinoe distinguished herself as a winger, which would make her a forward, correct? So not a midfielder, but not a striker, either.

Rapinoe was a left winger. Sometimes that is considered a forward, sometimes a midfielder . Considering she no longer has legs to play defense, at this point she would be a forward.

 

7 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

in proper parlance, she WAS a "left half"

Back in the day.

[Captain Ron 12876]

You guys are debating semantics. You just watch the games you know what role she was asked to play.

 

Today's NY Times The Daily nails exactly why the world is catching up to US in soccer. The salient points hit around 21:00 where they outline how women's soccer has changed in Europe. Spoiler alert - it's the clubs.

BTW - for you losers who think Rapinoe is a loser the first half is all for you because it's basically a breakdown of exactly why Rapinoe was the social force and winner she was.

 

[Captain Ron 12876]

 

Queen

[Captain Ron 12876]

 

[alincoln 2371]

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

[Captain Ron 12876]

23 minutes ago, alincoln said:

... There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). ...

Well yeah, look at the studio

 

The two on the right are LITERALLY the old guard. Also, they are the worst humans of them.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Captain Ron
That wasn't irony

[alincoln 2371]

US Soccer is a gravy train.    

[ztejas 43448]

28 minutes ago, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

Facts. All of it. Even the team we brought wasn't lacking in ability. 

[tokamak 6430]

22 minutes ago, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

You make a ton of good points, but here's the USWNT's finish in every World Cup so far:

1, 3, 1, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 9

Spot the outlier. I don't think it's overblown at all to say that's a MASSIVE underperformance relative to the standard and the program needs a lot of soul searching.

Clearly the rest of the world is getting much better, but that's just an excuse. Any dominant organization in any field has competitors coming for it. Either you act accordingly at all times, or you get complacent and eventually caught and overtaken. Where has the sense of urgency been hiding?

[BrickHorn 18234]

21 minutes ago, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.

The Sweden game isn’t the data point most of us are reacting to. That was a low-probability outcome in a sport that often rewards the lesser team in any given game.

In this tournament, our performances against the Netherlands and Portugal were far more concerning. And it’s been clear for some time that European teams were catching up by developing more skill and playing more sophisticated soccer. The Euros last summer were eye-opening. 

Other than that, I pretty much agree with the points you raise. We need to shift our development approach. Relying on profit-driven suburban youth clubs and colleges - both of which have short-term incentives focused on winning rather than player development - is going to drive us further in the hole. ODP is supposed to solve this problem, but it’s viewed by many as a waste of time and a glorified weed-out funnel that exists solely to identify talent by process of elimination (similar to Austin FC’s youth academy). 

 

[alincoln 2371]

26 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Other than that, I pretty much agree with the points you raise. We need to shift our development approach. Relying on profit-driven suburban youth clubs and colleges - both of which have short-term incentives focused on winning rather than player development - is going to drive us further in the hole. ODP is supposed to solve this problem, but it’s viewed by many as a waste of time and a glorified weed-out funnel that exists solely to identify talent by process of elimination (similar to Austin FC’s youth academy). 

Do you have direct experience with an ECNL training environment or are you just regurgitating the outdated media talking points regarding elite club soccer? ODP has not been viewed by anyone as a solution to anything for 20 years.

[BrickHorn 18234]

33 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Do you have direct experience with an ECNL training environment or are you just regurgitating the outdated media talking points regarding elite club soccer? ODP has not been viewed by anyone as a solution to anything for 20 years.

I’m not interested in starting a pissing match about the different leagues and clubs, so I’ll keep this purposefully generic. My kids are not in ECNL, but they play with and against kids that are. Some clubs are better at development than others, but there is no question that there are a significant number of clubs in the top leagues (ECNL and GA on the girls side) focused on winning now and making money. And it shows.

[BrickHorn 18234]

I will add: there are also youth clubs in the US that focus on developing players and do it well. Some are in ECNL, others are not. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by BrickHorn

[Anastasis 23469]

Youth soccer in this country is largely focused around extracting as much money as possible from their marks. And there are lots of marks out there. 

[Braff Zacklin 13573]

Now that's misogynistic.

[MisterP 127]

Oh I must be mistaken, they played for the US, didnt have personal ambitions, didnt leverage politics for personal gain, were completely cohesive, and have a lesser share of revenue than men while bringing in way more money than them via viewership. WHOOPSIE. Silly me. How misogynistic of me.

Edited August 11, 2023 by MisterP

[ChickenSandwich 9836]

48 minutes ago, MisterP said:

How to sum up the girls on USWNT. Whores who use their situation for money. Much like marriage. Much like divorce. Same shit, men somehow pay the price.

Thats bullshit.
 

If anything, they were incredibly smart and opportunistic. The American way. We are all whores. 
 

They simply capitalized by reading the room and knowing they would have the full support of the press in extorting USA soccer regardless of the facts.  They lost on all counts in court (except hotel accommodations), and then doubled down with a willing press core and got them to cave anyway. They made as much as the winner of the WWC before they played a game. Even if you don’t approve you have to admit it was a great play. 
 

That’s hard core America 23’, smart, manipulative and capitalistic. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by ChickenSandwich

[MisterP 127]

4 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Thats bullshit.
 

If anything, they were incredibly smart and opportunistic. The American way. We are all whores. 
 

They simply capitalized by reading the room and knowing they would have the full support of the press in extorting USA soccer regardless of the facts.  They lost on all counts in court (except hotel accommodations), and then doubled down with a willing press core and got them to cave anyway. They made as much as the winner of the WWC before they played a game. Even if you don’t approve you have to admit it was a great play. 
 

That’s hard core America 23’, smart, manipulative and capitalistic. 

Fair play Chicken Sandwich. Doesnt mean they arent overpaid under performing cunts. Which I guess is the amercian way innit mate. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by MisterP

[dieucla98 2942]

Crowd source this fucker.

[Kermit 3156]

2 hours ago, MisterP said:

How to sum up the girls on USWNT. Whores who use their situation for money. Much like marriage. Much like divorce. Same shit, men somehow pay the price.

I’m sorry you married a whore/

[Captain Ron 12876]

It's like Bedouin is back.

[Napoleon 8679]

4 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

That’s hard core America 23’, smart, manipulative and capitalistic. 

What in the fuck is 23’ ?

Is that 23 feet?

Is that the 23rd minute of a game?

What is the apostrophe AFTER the number 23 supposed to signify?

 

[Bottlecap 1523]

15 hours ago, alincoln said:

The reaction to this exit is hilariously overblown.  We got knocked out by a team we dominated that is now in the semis because almost our entire team was injured or returning from injury and an extremely weak coach.  Without injuries and with a real coach, our forwards would have consisted of Swanson (starting LW), Macario (starting 9/RW), Smith (starting 9/RW), Hatch, Rodman, Press and MAYBE Morgan.  Our MF would have consisted of Ertz, Lavelle, Sam Mewis and Horan and we would have played Sauerbrunn, Girma, Dunn and Fox in the back (our defense was actually statistically dominant).  There are plenty of other players in the pool that are young and highly skilled that dumbass Vlatko didn't bring in because he is too weak to move past the old guard who actually control the team (a HUGE issue the media is too weak to address). 

The old guard were crucial parts of arguably the greatest women's team of all time but their primary concern is staying on the USWNT gravy train as opposed to the best interests of the team.  Rapinoe shouldn't have been anywhere near this team much less actually playing and everyone knew it . . .  Vlatko, her, the entire USWNT organization . . . but only she could remove herself from the team and she wasn't going to miss out on that sweet WC-related cash.  Her greed should tarnish her legacy a bit.

The US development system will put us at a competitive disadvantage going forward but that was not the issue in this world cup.  England's bright young attacking talent (Alessia Russo) was developed at UNC in the US system.  That said, the European club system is going to get better and better while we are going to continue to rely on a MLS-lite academy system and the ECNL/Division 1 college development system.  Our elite players need to move to Europe and I expect that they will as the money gets better and better.  I'm not that concerned though because, unlike men, many of the best female athletes in the US play soccer and the coaching and development at the top 100 ECNL clubs in the country is good to elite.  Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality. The media loves to claim that elite club soccer is an entirely white upper class environment which is inaccurate.  Here is a picture of the Solar (DFW's best ECNL program) U-16 2023 ECNL national champions:

    

This team is no exception.  There is a ridiculous amount of talent in the US women's game and the future is extremely bright if USSF gets its head out of its ass which is admittedly unlikely because it is primarily a political organization driven more by the greed of certain of its stakeholders that the best interests of US Soccer.

Damn, Solar carries 19 girls (and two keepers) on their top team? That's crazy for playing time purposes, but maybe they've got something right because the training is where all the development is at anyway. 100% of those girls will at least play college even if they get Pulisic minutes for Solar U12. My son plays on the top ECNL team for his age for LSC (they went away from N/S teams to Red/Black) but I'm slightly concerned he won't be able to keep up the rigor before he gets to make a choice on his future with the sport. The women's developmental teams are still in good hands, IMO, even after the GA went away. American academies are really good for the women's game, better than the mens IMO.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Bottlecap

[RamjetFDO 10575]

Multiple things can be true at the same time.

- I support Team USA in international competition in whatever sport.

- I am sorry for the ladies they are out. There's a lot of new talent that I'm rooting for.

- I am satisfied that Rapinoe flamed out in such a poetic fashion. She is one of the most unlikable sports figures in a while for undeserved hubris. I'm not gloating about it, but karma was served there.

- This squad was not as good as they (or the media) made them out to be. They were lazy (never seemed to step to the ball and were constantly beaten to 50/50 balls), they did not move as a team, and there were countless times where they just dribbled straight into traffic, thinking they could just wish their way through - but always just lost the ball. Watching any of the remaining nations still on the pitch show the difference.

- The manager sucked, but there was still enough talent on the pitch for the US to have overcome.


Am I glad they're out of this tournament? No.

Was that a deserved exit? Maybe... maybe not.

Was it representative of their play and effort? Yeah, I think so.

The gleeful gloating at their exit is unbecoming, especially by those with a single focus... but not allowing criticism of the impacts of the unlikable factors in this edition of the USWNT on the rest of the team isn't a good look either.

Multiple things, etc.

[ChickenSandwich 9836]

9 hours ago, Napoleon said:

What in the fuck is 23’ ?

Is that 23 feet?

Is that the 23rd minute of a game?

What is the apostrophe AFTER the number 23 supposed to signify?

 

2023. Should have just said Merican AF

[Captain Ron 12876]

4 hours ago, RamjetFDO said:

Multiple things can be true at the same time.

- I support Team USA in international competition in whatever sport.

- I am sorry for the ladies they are out. There's a lot of new talent that I'm rooting for.

- I am satisfied that Rapinoe flamed out in such a poetic fashion. She is one of the most unlikable sports figures in a while for undeserved hubris. I'm not gloating about it, but karma was served there.

- This squad was not as good as they (or the media) made them out to be. They were lazy (never seemed to step to the ball and were constantly beaten to 50/50 balls), they did not move as a team, and there were countless times where they just dribbled straight into traffic, thinking they could just wish their way through - but always just lost the ball. Watching any of the remaining nations still on the pitch show the difference.

- The manager sucked, but there was still enough talent on the pitch for the US to have overcome.


Am I glad they're out of this tournament? No.

Was that a deserved exit? Maybe... maybe not.

Was it representative of their play and effort? Yeah, I think so.

The gleeful gloating at their exit is unbecoming, especially by those with a single focus... but not allowing criticism of the impacts of the unlikable factors in this edition of the USWNT on the rest of the team isn't a good look either.

Multiple things, etc.


 

This is how to be both critical of their play as well as not like players. Not liking individual players is fine and acceptable, so long as it doesn’t come with the misogynistic dog whistle undertones.

I disagree with the assertions on Rapinoe, but there are at least discussions to have here on her likability. When you come with crap about not meeting your definition of what that person should be, then your argument is in bad faith. And that is what I have a problem with.

Like you say there are a lot of thing here.

[Napoleon 8679]

3 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

2023. Should have just said Merican AF

You should have just written:

‘23

 

NOTE: the apostrophe is in place of that which has been omitted. Example:

I will = I’ll.

(The apostrophe takes the place of the “wi”.)

[alincoln 2371]

15 hours ago, Bottlecap said:

Damn, Solar carries 19 girls (and two keepers) on their top team? That's crazy for playing time purposes, but maybe they've got something right because the training is where all the development is at anyway. 100% of those girls will at least play college even if they get Pulisic minutes for Solar U12. My son plays on the top ECNL team for his age for LSC (they went away from N/S teams to Red/Black) but I'm slightly concerned he won't be able to keep up the rigor before he gets to make a choice on his future with the sport. The women's developmental teams are still in good hands, IMO, even after the GA went away. American academies are really good for the women's game, better than the mens IMO.

ECNL rosters are 18 so I would guess that one (if not more) of the girls in the pic are injured (par for the course unfortunately in girls soccer where the frequency of significant injuries is insane).  With two goalies, that is only 6 field subs which isn't that much when you are playing in the heat with games every day in these national tournaments.  The CBs almost always play the entire game so you have 6 subs for the other 8 field positions. Also in ECNL, you can't come back in until the next half when you are subbed so it's not like HS and college soccer with the dumb constant subbing. 

[Incredulity 11671]

10 hours ago, RamjetFDO said:

I am satisfied that Rapinoe flamed out in such a poetic fashion. She is one of the most unlikable sports figures in a while for undeserved hubris. I'm not gloating about it, but karma was served there

If there is one thing people like even more than a winner it’s taking others down a peg or two, especially crapping on athletes that have been brash during their success.  Megan’s soccer performance history is undeniable.  Being involved in this WC and her performance will cost her big money over the next few years.  
 

I don’t think the issue was lack of individual player skill.  Sadly it appears that success of the NWSL(separation from US Soccer) reduces opportunities for the USWNT to develop chemistry.  They aren’t good enough to just show up and/or play unfamiliar positions in the WC.

[RamjetFDO 10575]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

If there is one thing people like even more than a winner it’s taking others down a peg or two, especially crapping on athletes that have been brash during their success.  Megan’s soccer performance history is undeniable.  Being involved in this WC and her performance will cost her big money over the next few years.  
 

I don’t think the issue was lack of individual player skill.  Sadly it appears that success of the NWSL(separation from US Soccer) reduces opportunities for the USWNT to develop chemistry.  They aren’t good enough to just show up and/or play unfamiliar positions in the WC.

I'm going to answer your response (since you quoted me) piece by piece ... please don't take offense, but there are some misinterpretations about what/how I said what I said that I want to address.

If there is one thing people like even more than a winner it’s taking others down a peg or two, especially crapping on athletes that have been brash during their success.

Not even remotely what I was doing.  I specifically and carefully used the word "hubris" for a reason.

Michael Jordan was brash.  Mike Tyson was brash.  They deserved praise for their success and didn't elevate themselves beyond the sport to the distraction of their performance while they were still playing.

Megan Rapinoe was a good woman's soccer player early in her career, as was the entire USWNT, until the rest of the world started to significantly catch up in this WC cycle (as has been discussed in this thread).  Once that happened, along with her age and declining ability to compete against both younger and ever-increasingly more talented players both on the USWNT and on other teams, Rapinoe's continuing to believe her media (and self-produced) puffery and expect everyone to believe she was still performing at the level of her early 20s was off-putting.  It's doubtful anyone (especially with 20/20 hindsight) believes she was a good choice for this cycle's USWNT.  I didn't even bring up her external antics, which she has every right to do -- but I have every right to not agree with her.  It has nothing to do with (as mentioned earlier) "misogyny", but rather my personal opinion that representing your country is an honor and if you don't want to do it - don't do it.  But, don't *trash* it on a public stage and then still expect not only to represent your country, but to somehow be glorified for it by the very supporters you belittle.  Nothing to do with her gender - I'd feel 100% the same way if Christian Pulisic did what she did.

 Megan’s soccer performance history is undeniable.

Undeniably both good and bad (as mentioned above).  Her performance on the pitch when she was younger (against differently-skilled talent) was very good for the USWNT.  Her performance on the pitch against younger and more-talented players was ... "less than" very good.

I don’t think the issue was lack of individual player skill.

100% disagree with you, in that I include "mental" (soccer IQ) along with "physical" when talking about player skill.  The continued insistence of dribbling directly into defenders and losing the ball was an example of poor mental skill, with the hubris that their physical skill would prevail.  Again, 20/20 hindsight is pretty undeniable about that one.  Plus, there was a *noticeable* difference in physical skills between this year's USWNT and other teams when looking at passes, crosses, free kicks, etc.  Ours just seemed to be underpowered, misplaced, and just "less" all around.

They aren’t good enough to just show up and/or play unfamiliar positions in the WC.

Seems to contradict your previous statement, but I agree with this one.

[Incredulity 11671]

20 minutes ago, RamjetFDO said:

Not even remotely what I was doing

All my comments are offered just as a personal opinion/conversation , no offense taken and none intended from me.

I wasn’t trying to accuse you of that.  Just a general comment on people.  

25 minutes ago, RamjetFDO said:

100% disagree with you, in that I include "mental" (soccer IQ) along with "physical" when talking about player skill.  The continued insistence of dribbling directly into defenders and losing the ball was an example of poor mental skill, with the hubris that their physical skill would prevail.

My view on this is they weren’t prepared to play as a team.  Totally agree the execution on the field sucked.  But it’s not because they are over matched physically or a complete lack of fundamental soccer skills.  Players playing positions they don’t regularly play with teammates they haven’t developed a rhythm with.  
The rest of the world is definitely catching up in women’s soccer.  I think the US can continue to be successful in WC. Just not as dominant.

 

[RamjetFDO 10575]

The rest of the world is definitely catching up in women’s soccer.  I think the US can continue to be successful in WC. Just not as dominant.
 

Bueno. I think we're on the same page... and I want to see the next generation represent and get that fifth star!

[BrickHorn 18234]

On 8/11/2023 at 5:37 PM, Anastasis said:

Youth soccer in this country is largely focused around extracting as much money as possible from their marks. And there are lots of marks out there. 

That is certainly an issue. In the US, youth soccer is a business that makes money one way: registration fees. So clubs are financially incentivized to attract any player whose parents will pay thousands of dollars a year.

My understanding is that European clubs view the youth academies as a developmental pipeline. They generate money through transfer fees. They don’t sell training services to parents; they sell player contracts to professional club teams. So the Euro clubs are financially incentivized to attract the most talented players. 

Whether clubs like Solar do a good job developing players or not, they are fighting an uphill battle on the fundamental economics that European clubs and players just don’t have to deal with.

And btw, Solar is a huge outlier and not a great indicator of development nationwide. It’s probably the most successful club in the US on the girls’ side. So whether or not Solar is doing things the right way, that doesn’t diminish the criticism of US youth club soccer generally, which is still saddled with the pay-to-play model and its consequences (pressure to win rather than develop, unnecessary travel, narrow pool of players, etc.)

Edited August 14, 2023 by BrickHorn

[Deej 76791]

On 8/11/2023 at 6:09 PM, MisterP said:

How to sum up the girls on USWNT. Whores who use their situation for money. Much like marriage. Much like divorce. Same shit, men somehow pay the price.

Somebody hasn't gotten laid in quite some time. 

[Deej 76791]

Did you tell her she's just a whore after your money, or was she just a whore you paid money?

[MisterP 127]

47 minutes ago, Deej said:

Did you tell her she's just a whore after your money, or was she just a whore you paid money?

She's 21 from the nicest area of Austin going to SMU. What do you think she is after in life?

And yes, she loves a hand around her throat degrading her. But thanks for playing the game!

Edited August 15, 2023 by MisterP

[BrickHorn 18234]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:44 AM, alincoln said:

Go watch Solar's U-12 team if you think we have weak coaching/tactics at the elite club level.  It's also ridiculously competitive with the best players/teams in the country regularly playing against the best.  The weakest players on the top teams are also getting weeded out annually at young ages.  If your daughter is an ELITE player in almost any city in the country, an ECNL club will almost definitely find you and try to make it work for you to play on their ECNL team.  That's reality.

I’ve been thinking more about your posts on ECNL and development, and it’s become clear that Solar is the exception that proves the rule.

Check out this Soccer Wire ranking of the Top 50 club players from October 2020. (It actually includes 53 players, due to ties.) Solar has the most entries on the list at 15.

Think about that. Out of approximately 250 clubs in ECNL and GA, one club in one city produced almost 30% of the top players. 

That’s amazing and kudos to Solar. But it’s also an indictment of the system. In a healthy development pyramid where talent is being trained in clubs across the country, you wouldn’t see such dramatic talent concentrations. The best of the best clubs might develop 2 or 3 of the Top 50 players. But the other 249 clubs would do their jobs almost as well, and top players would emerge nationwide.

That’s not what happens. Solar is the big dog, but the rest of the Top 50 is dominated by only a handful of clubs (12 in total):

1. Solar (15)

2. Sporting Blue Valley (10)

3. Tophat (6)

4. Utah Royals (5)

5. TSJ FC VA (4)

6. STA (3)

7T. Challenge SC; Colorado Rush; Oklahoma Energy; Richmond United (2)

11T. City SC; Houston Dash (1)

The top two clubs alone developed 25 of the Top 53. The top five clubs alone developed 40 of 53. That is: a mere 2% of clubs in the two elite leagues developed nearly 80% of the top players. 

That is alarming. A tiny handful of ECNL and GA clubs are doing an excellent job developing players, but the other 90%+ are falling well short. 

That is consistent with what I’ve seen from ECNL and GA in our region. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by BrickHorn

[alincoln 2371]

Lulz. That list is from the COVID year when CA (which produces the most elite players in the country by a mile), the NW, the Midwest and the Northeast didn't play.   

 

[alincoln 2371]

In looking more into that list, it only tracks players from teams who used instat which was limited to GA teams that were playing and a couple ECNL teams.  It's basically worthless as a tool to evaluate the depth of elite club soccer.

Here is the current U-17 national team where no club had more than 2 representatives and there are players from 16 states:

• Mateya Dessieux (Tophat; Knoxville, Tenn.)
• Sonoma Kasica (Florida Premier FC; St. Petersburg, Fla.)
• Aven Alvarez (North Carolina Courage Academy; New Hill, N.C.)
• Elizabeth Boamah (Albion SC; San Diego, Calif.)
• Jordyn Bugg (San Diego Surf SC; El Cajon, Calif.)
• Nicki Fraser (Real Colorado; Highlands Ranch, Colo.)
• Reese Klein (Florida United SC; Cooper City, Fla.)
• Hope Munson (Utah Avalanche; Salt Lake City, Utah)
• Tanna Schornstein (San Diego Surf SC; San Diego, Calif.)
• Carla Small (IMG Academy; Waipahu, Hawaii)
• Nawreen Ahmad (Virginia Union FC; Falls Church, VA)
• Kendall Bodak (New England FC; Monson, Mass.)
• Shaela Bradley (Portland Thorns Academy; La Center, Wash.)
• Isabela Engle (Minnesota Thunder Academy; Edina, Minn.)
• Claire Hutton (World Class FC; Bethlehem, N.Y.)
• Neely Kerr (Tophat SC; Buford, Ga.)
• Linda Ullmark (Western New York Flash; Buffalo, N.Y.)
• Emeri Adames (Solar SC; Red Oak, Tex.)
• Sophia Bradley (PDA; Wayne, N.J.)
• Ava McDonald (FC Dallas; Allen, Tex.)
• Miri O'Donnell (FC Bay Area Surf; San Ramon, Calif.)
• Jaden Thomas (FC Dallas; Dallas, Texas)
• Amalia Villarreal (Michigan Jaguars FC; Lansing, Mich.)

And here is the current u-15 national team where no club had more than 2 representatives and there are players from 15 states:

• Evan O'Steen (Solar SC; Grapevine, Texas)
• Liesel Tetmeyer (Sting Austin; Round Rock, Texas)
• Pearl Cecil (San Diego Surf SC; Encinitas, Calif.)
• Natalie Chudowsky (New York SC; Westport, Conn.)
• Izzy Dalke (St. Louis Scott Gallagher; Belleville, Ill.)
• Makenna Holub (Eastside FC; Redmond, Wash.)
• Michaela Panella (Western New York Flash; East Amherst, N. Y.)
• Mia Villalpando (San Diego Surf SC; Bonita, Calif.)
• Vienna Whipple (Crossfire Premier SC; Bellevue, Wash.)
• Scottie Antonucci (Legends FC; Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.)
• Reese Canada (Michigan Hawks; Fenton, Mich.)
• Sierra Dupre (Pittsburgh Riverhounds SC; Pittsburgh, Pa.)
• Riley Kennedy (North Carolina Courage; Holly Springs, N.C.)
• Jaiden Rodriguez (San Diego Surf SC; San Diego, Calif.)
• Chloe Sadler (La Roca FC; Hyde Park, Utah)
• Ashlyn Anderson (Indy Premier SC; Carmel, Ind.)
• Micayla Johnson (Michigan Hawks; Troy, Mich.)
• Ella Kral (Lamorinda SC; Berkeley, Calif.)
• Paige Pasinski (SC del Sol; Phoenix, Ariz.)
• Ava Stack (Concorde Fire; Atlanta, Ga.)

[BrickHorn 18234]

3 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Lulz. That list is from the COVID year when CA (which produces the most elite players in the country by a mile), the NW, the Midwest and the Northeast didn't play.   

 

Fair enough. Then why aren’t any SA or Austin teams listed? 

And here’s the ECNL-only list from end-of-year 2021. Turns out adding the rest of the country doesn’t make much of a difference. 

1. SUSA Academy (10)

2. Solar (7)

3. Richmond United (6)

4T. Challenge; Penn Fusion; Portland Thorns; Virginia Development Academy (4)

So 39 of the top players come from 7 of 150 ECNL clubs. Only 13 of 150 clubs (fewer than 10%) have at least one player make the Top 50.

I get it. You’re happy with the development you see at the ECNL level. But if you’re basing that on Solar, you’re operating in a bubble that is far from representative of development system-wide. 

[BrickHorn 18234]

7 minutes ago, alincoln said:

In looking more into that list, it only tracks players from teams who used instat which was limited to GA teams that were playing and a couple ECNL teams. 

Good point. I don’t have access to Top Drawer Soccer, but they publish rankings that would be interesting to see. 

I would expect the concentration to flatten out, but I also expect several clubs will dominate the list and the vast majority won’t appear on the rankings. And I expect that the list of top clubs will be relatively consistent from year to year. 

[alincoln 2371]

The top clubs just have better quality in depth.  Almost all of their starters will receive D-1 offers while only only a handful of players from the next tier of clubs will.  There are at least 100 high quality clubs in the country although 20 or so are at another level.  

The 2023 ECNL national champions came from 5 different states.  

U-13 Slammers (CA)

U-14 PDA (NJ)

U-15 Michigan Hawks

U-16 Solar (TX)

U-17 SLSG (MO)

[BrickHorn 18234]

True, but if you look at the results you’ll see the same few teams dominated the semis and finals across age groups.

And anyway, focusing on tournament results is beside the point. The question is whether our youth club system is optimizing player development. 

[Napoleon 8679]

The development academies attached to MLS & Women’s Soccer League (?) teams will produce the top teams eventually, because they will not cost what the other clubs cost and will focus on developing the players over just winning at all costs..

The clubs will produce college players and a smattering of national team players and the development academies of the pro teams will dominate the national teams starting in the very near future. 

[dieucla98 2942]

The depth of knowledge this site of morons and dipshits possesses truly amazes me. 

[alincoln 2371]

11 hours ago, Napoleon said:

The development academies attached to MLS & Women’s Soccer League (?) teams will produce the top teams eventually, because they will not cost what the other clubs cost and will focus on developing the players over just winning at all costs..

Already the case for MLS (the entire U-15 roster from the recent U-15 CONCACAF championships was comprised of MLS academy players).  The NWSL doesn't have enough teams or resources to support an MLS-style academy system.  They play in ECNL or GA and are focused on just competing at that level.  MLS academy rosters consist of players from across the region (on the younger teams) and country (at u-17 and u-19 levels) who live with guest families in the city where the club is located.  NWSL academies are nothing like that.  

[Napoleon 8679]

12 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Already the case for MLS (the entire U-15 roster from the recent U-15 CONCACAF championships was comprised of MLS academy players).  The NWSL doesn't have enough teams or resources to support an MLS-style academy system.  They play in ECNL or GA and are focused on just competing at that level.  MLS academy rosters consist of players from across the region (on the younger teams) and country (at u-17 and u-19 levels) who live with guest families in the city where the club is located.  NWSL academies are nothing like that.  

https://www.fcdallas.com/youth/girlshistory

What can you not understand?

Now it is the MLS teams, but the women’s teams will follow suit in the near future. 
 

Pay-to-play clubs will lose their top girls to academies. It’s obvious and is the national and world model for men and now women. 

[alincoln 2371]

FC Dallas ECNL is pay to pay.  Yes, the best of the best can apply for fee waivers but that is the case for all elite ECNL clubs as mentioned way up thread. There isn't enough money in professional women's soccer in the US to finance girls academies at the level of MLS academies.  MLS academy players cost the clubs around $50K a year per player.  Half of the NWSL teams can barely make payroll and they don't have an NBA to bail them out. 

Elite girls soccer club leadership would love to find this magical pot of gold that you appear to believe exists to eliminate pay to play.  Unfortunately, the possibility of one day breaking the world record transfer fee of $500K for a woman soccer player hasn't proven sufficient to drive investment.