What's happening in Iran?

[Chad Fuck 17360]

Good thing Mick and Bowie didn't film their video in Tehran.  

They’re just two dudes dancing. Mullahs are totally ok with that.

[statsman 5356]

Now that Iran is building a drone factory in Moscow, and presumably accessing all the nuke help they need, can we PLEASE drop the JCPOA as an idea that may have been a decent try once, but is now pretty much useless?

[statsman 5356]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/eus-top-diplomat-says-iranian-deal-is-only-way-to-stop-tehrans-nuclear-program-11675681424?mod=world_lead_pos3
 

Not going to paste whole article. Euros want JCPOA to continue. 
 

My take- JCPOA is supposed to do two things:

1. Limit the Iranian nuclear weapons program

2. provide framework for trade with Irans, sans sanctions. 
 

I think the euros are more interested in 2 than 1. 

[atomheartbevo 89130]

Didn’t think we’d see this  I guess they figured out it’s bad to create more martyrs.  Apparently they’ve done this before, but these protests are different.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/05/middleeast/iran-pardons-prisoners-intl/index.html

Quote

Iran will pardon or commute the sentences of a large number of prisoners as part of an annual amnesty, state media reported Sunday, although it is unclear how this will apply to people arrested in the recent wave of protests.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has approved a proposal to “pardon or commute” the sentences of thousands of prisoners, state media reports, but with notable exceptions that will likely exclude many imprisoned protesters.

Quote

According to semi-official Tasnim, the amnesty does not apply to those sentenced or facing charges of “espionage for outsiders, direct links with the foreign intelligence services, murder or intentional injuries, as well as vandalism or arson attack on governmental, military and public sites” – all charges regularly levied against protesters and foreign nationals imprisoned in Iran.

Referring to protesters, Chief Justice Gholam-Hossein Mohseni-Ejei said “a number of convicts jailed following the recent riots in Iran had been deceived into wrongdoing under the influence of the enemy’s propaganda campaign” and have “asked for forgiveness,” Tasnim reported.At least one Iranian human rights organization dismissed the move as “propaganda.”

Quote

“The #HypocriticalPardoning of protesters by Khamenei is an act of propaganda. They used their self-right to protest and their arrests and sentences are not justified. Not only should all protesters be released, but in the path of justice, the trials of the perpetrators and agents of repression is also a universal right,” Iran Human Rights said on Twitter.

A New York based NGO, the Center for Human Rights (CHRI) in Iran, described the move by Khamenei as a “PR stunt” with “no grounding in reality.” 

 

[Schulz2.0 28657]

55 minutes ago, statsman said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/eus-top-diplomat-says-iranian-deal-is-only-way-to-stop-tehrans-nuclear-program-11675681424?mod=world_lead_pos3
 

Not going to paste whole article. Euros want JCPOA to continue. 
 

My take- JCPOA is supposed to do two things:

1. Limit the Iranian nuclear weapons program

2. provide framework for trade with Irans, sans sanctions. 
 

I think the euros are more interested in 2 than 1. 

Fucking stupid

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[jofus 2265]

Straight out of the aggy playbook.

[Hermanator 6730]

22 minutes ago, jofus said:

Straight out of the aggy playbook.

And some other asshole who had an inauguration in the last decade

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[Chad Fuck 17360]

Heard these on the way home from work yesterday.  Second is more interesting because its "man on the street" interviews.  

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/16/1157639861/where-does-iran-go-now

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/16/1157639854/irans-government-has-tamped-down-most-protests-but-anger-and-desperation-persist

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

 

[MissingInAction 24468]

Anybody notice a dude running around in a green turban?

[atomheartbevo 89130]

Map of the area

 

[Chad Fuck 17360]

Israelis been let off the leash. Good.

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

 

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Well that's all fucked

[Neonmoon 38126]

What is wrong with this world 

[Chad Fuck 17360]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

What is wrong with this world 

It's a pretty long list, but we can start with power hungry religious zealot men.  

[Rimbo 25474]

21 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

What is wrong with this world 

 

20 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

It's a pretty long list, but we can start with power hungry religious zealot men.  

It's a war against women, and nothing less. Some men are just terrified that women might be allowed to be equal to men.

[SL Xpress 7492]

15 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

 

It's a war against women, and nothing less. Some men are just terrified that women might be allowed to be equal to men.

I mean, you're not wrong. But more accurately it's a war against the west and its values. Particularly as they apply to Islam. 

The whole of human existence, both historical and pre historical, could be classified as a war against women. It is a very recent - and almost wholly western - movement to give women way more power and freedom (which amount to the same thing, essentially) in society in general than has ever existed before. And even there plenty of pockets exist that think this has gone too far in some ways. 

But look throughout muslim countries run according to Sharia law and tell me where there is a single one looking to expand the rights of women on anything approaching a reasonable pace. 

One of the biggest blunders in US history was supporting Khomeni over the Shah. The Shah was not a good person. He inflicted human rights abuses on his people as a matter of course. But he had been secularizing Iran in palpable ways. Which was partly possible because Iran/Persia has a deep and rich culture that extends not only through their history as an Islamic country, but well before that as one of the most ancient cultures in the world. And the people identify with that history in ways the historically nomadic Arabs do not. 

The central problem for me is that the Quran embodies the chief religious leader, political leader, and military leader in one person. So for any kind of liberalization to occur on any level - including and most specifically increasing the rights of women - the person at the top of the muslim country has to prioritize secularization. And that's always going to be difficult - I would use the word impossible - without some egregious form of repression. Which the west doesn't want to support, understandably. But without toppling governments in one way or another and supporting strong men being put in place we'll never see any progress in the muslim world. The system will not allow for it. 

The current movement in Iran is doomed to fail. The leaders will go full Assad and kill anyone and everyone they have to. They will put whole cities to the torch to remain in power, because they feel like they are employing Allah's will by definition. The west will not intervene militarily because there's no stomach for it. Especially after Syria, and especially while Ukraine is going on. And even if the West did intervene they'd try to put a democracy in place, which would simply transform into a sharia law state after a short period of time anyway. 

So while you say this is a war against women, I'd say it's more accurately a war against the west, and it's more permissive values. And Iran is hardly alone there, frankly. They're just the most brazen is terms of opposition and the lengths they'll go to repress it. 

[JesusSweatDuck 17780]

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

Because making women second- or even third-class citizens is also a western value. You're seeing it happen right now in Texas and Florida...

Seriously dude? Take that shit to the CR

[InkaUtexas 24998]

It is about control. It is about running mandates created by few to control masses. 

[SL Xpress 7492]

11 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

It is about control. It is about running mandates created by few to control masses. 

What makes Iran unique in that regard? That's civilization in a nutshell. 

[Rimbo 25474]

33 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

If we were genetically predisposed to give women equal rights, it would have happened thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years ago.

umm... but it has. Just not in recent European civilization. It is, through the course of human history, a New Thing to not give women an equal share. There's entire cultures dating back to the dawn of man that are maternalistic, even. We even have documentation within scripture of when Abrahamic religion abandoned gender equality in favor of the paternalistic form it became (Deuteronomy, King Josiah).

In other words, you're once again using a lot of words to disguise your ignorance of these matters.

[SL Xpress 7492]

23 minutes ago, Bevo said:

US support of Iranian zealots has come twice in the last half century with the overthrow of the shah and the removal of sanctions against Iran following the second gulf war.

 

Well, the military coup that overthrew their democratically elected leader, Mosaddegh, in 1953 also had the support of the clergy, who feared a communist takeover. But that was 70 years ago, so not in the last half century. Important enough to note, though, IMO. 

[Rimbo 25474]

47 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Seriously dude? Take that shit to the CR.

What's CR about what I said, that wouldn't also describe this entire thread?

36 minutes ago, Bevo said:

US support of Iranian zealots has come twice in the last half century with the overthrow of the shah

i think you've mistaken which side of that incident the USA was on

[Bevo 13442]

Rimbo, I like you, but I think this southern cal snow has affected you in a bad way.

[SL Xpress 7492]

3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

umm... but it has. Just not in recent European civilization. It is, through the course of human history, a New Thing to not give women an equal share. There's entire cultures dating back to the dawn of man that are maternalistic, even. We even have documentation within scripture of when Abrahamic religion abandoned gender equality in favor of the paternalistic form it became (Deuteronomy, King Josiah).

In other words, you're once again using a lot of words to disguise your ignorance of these matters.

All of the matriarchal societies that have ever existed since the dawn of man, as you describe it, are the exceptions that prove the rule. All of them have only existed pretty much exclusively in isolation. Never have the most powerful civilizations on the planet, in contact with other civilizations, propelled women's rights in the way western countries have done over the last 50 years or so. The overwhelming evolutionary evidence of mankind is that it's predisposed towards patriarchal systems. That you're choosing to dismiss that idea because I type a lot of words is silly. 

The idea that Abrahamic religion achieved anything remotely resembling the gender equality western countries are aspiring to currently is a flat out falsification. You're reaching, and it shows the paucity of evidence in favor of your position. Equal rights for women is without a doubt one of the standard bearer foundations of western values over the last 50 years. It's the first time in human history the concept has achieved this much acceptance. It's a great thing. But it's fragile, and will require a constant emphasis. And societies that emphasize the value of a tradition that goes beyond the last 50 years will have a natural intransigence towards it. 

But you keep touting the PRC's great work at achieving equal gender status. That one was rich. 

[SL Xpress 7492]

16 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

What's CR about what I said, that wouldn't also describe this entire thread?

i think you've mistaken which side of that incident the USA was on

You don't believe Carter undermined the Shah on the basis of his violations of human rights from the moment he took office? Carter was absolutely a chief contributor to Khomeni usurping the Shah in Iran. The most that can be done is argue he did the right thing by creating the conditions for the deposing of a cruel and ruthless man. But to insinuate the US supported the Shah over Khomeni is flat out wrong. 

[InkaUtexas 24998]

30 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

What makes Iran unique in that regard? That's civilization in a nutshell. 

Because like the Taliban they do not move forward, they move backwards. Look at the rest of the Islamic world. They are the only two groups that have policy to constrain the roles of women. Shit, even the Saudi's are moving forward. Things change. It is important to know history, but not always judge current situations by it. 

[Rimbo 25474]

14 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Rimbo, I like you, but I think this southern cal snow has affected you in a bad way.

It's ok; I got SLX on ignore now, and I'm feeling better already.

[SL Xpress 7492]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Because like the Taliban they do not move forward, they move backwards. Look at the rest of the Islamic world. They are the only two groups that have policy to constrain the roles of women. Shit, even the Saudi's are moving forward. Things change. It is important to know history, but not always judge current situations by it. 

But that's a new point.

"It is about control. It is about running mandates created by few to control masses."

That's what civilizations do. We're hierarchal, so there's always going to be a pyramid scheme with fewer and fewer people at the top. Mandates are created to control the masses. That's what corporations do. That's what militaries do. There's nothing unique about Iran or the Taliban. That's what all civilizations do. It's how human beings organize themselves. How the control is achieved, and what the specific mandates might be change, but there's always some group projecting control by running mandates intended to control masses. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's how things work. 

If you want to take exception with the specific mandates, or how they're enforced, I can get completely on board with that. But your general statement doesn't make any sense as unique to either Iran or the Taliban. 

[InkaUtexas 24998]

24 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

But that's a new point.

"It is about control. It is about running mandates created by few to control masses."

That's what civilizations do. We're hierarchal, so there's always going to be a pyramid scheme with fewer and fewer people at the top. Mandates are created to control the masses. That's what corporations do. That's what militaries do. There's nothing unique about Iran or the Taliban. That's what all civilizations do. It's how human beings organize themselves. How the control is achieved, and what the specific mandates might be change, but there's always some group projecting control by running mandates intended to control masses. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's how things work. 

If you want to take exception with the specific mandates, or how they're enforced, I can get completely on board with that. But your general statement doesn't make any sense as unique to either Iran or the Taliban. 

So when they blow up a girls school, but not a boy school it is different? I understand civilizations. 

[SL Xpress 7492]

24 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So when they blow up a girls school, but not a boy school it is different? I understand civilizations. 

I have no idea what your point is here. 

Iran/Persia is a rich civilization with a population fully capable of contributing to the advance of our species that's been run by a repressive zealot religious leadership intent on imposing their will on their own population and exporting their version of what humanity should be on everyone around them. Blowing up/poisoning the girls' schools is them doubling down, but it's not like we haven't seen signs of this all along, and it's not like this is going to be the worst thing they do. Maybe the west starts arming dissidents and we create another Syria? Or Libya? Or ISIS? I think that's the most that can be hoped for. They're not going to let go of power. They're not going to see anything they do as evil. They would prefer to decimate their population if that's what it takes to keep power. Plenty of boys/men are going to die before this ends, too. The west isn't going to invade. Everyone else is either not strong enough or has their own issues to deal with. 

My only point was that human organizations run mandates to control masses. In general. What the Iranians do is barbaric, but the core dynamic you described is not unique.

Edited March 6, 2023 by SL Xpress

[SL Xpress 7492]

Not sure if posted or referenced in this thread, but here's a film with an outstanding perspective on the Iranian revolution and the resulting theocracy from an Iranian woman who experienced it. Made in 2007. 

 

[Rimbo 25474]

51 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Equating anything that's happening in FL and TX to the govt poisoning girls in school is a bridge too far. 

[Neonmoon 38126]

59 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Equating anything that's happening in FL and TX to the govt poisoning girls in school is a bridge too far.

[YGIFS 19445]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:25 AM, Chad Fuck said:

They’re just two dudes dancing. Mullahs are totally ok with that.

can't imbed properly, but dude looks like a Mullah and seems to be endorsing what you've described:

https://tenor.com/view/jason-mantzoukas-the-league-bump-dudes-kiss-gif-3934166

Also, Florida and Texas have enough school violence for a thousand lifetimes, but no mass poisonings.  But the year ain't over yet.  

[Bevo 13442]

11 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Also, Florida and Texas have enough school violence for a thousand lifetimes, but no mass poisonings.  But the year ain't over yet.  

Colorado, too. And https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/schools-struggle-with-lead-contaminated-water-while-awaiting-federal-reliefI

HILIPSBURG, Mont. — On a recent day in this 19th-century mining town turned tourist hot spot, students made their way into the Granite High School lobby and past a new filtered water bottle fill station.

Water samples taken from the drinking fountain the station replaced had a lead concentration of 10 parts per billion — twice Montana’s legal limit for schools of 5 parts per billion for the toxic metal.

Thomas Gates, the principal and superintendent of the small Philipsburg School District, worries the new faucets, sinks, and filters the district installed for roughly 30 water sources are temporary fixes. The high school, built in 1912, is likely laced with aged pipes and other infrastructure, like so much of this historic town.

 

[Schulz2.0 28657]

 

[SL Xpress 7492]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

Do you have any kind of best case scenario for what is going to happen? 

Every realistic possibility I come up with feels like a nightmarish disaster. 

[Bevo 13442]

3 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Every realistic possibility I come up with feels like a nightmarish disaster. 

In Iran, I think they call that Tuesday.

[Chad Fuck 17360]

Do you have any kind of best case scenario for what is going to happen? 
Every realistic possibility I come up with feels like a nightmarish disaster. 

They are poisoning their own women. It’s already a nightmarish disaster.

[SL Xpress 7492]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

In Iran, I think they call that Tuesday.

Maybe so, but things are definitely heading in a direction. For me it's like if Syria and ISIS had a baby. And they possessed uranium enriched to 84%. 

[SL Xpress 7492]

5 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

They are poisoning their own women. It’s already a nightmarish disaster.

Well, I considered it a nightmarish disaster when Khomeni took over. It's been 40+ years of railroad tracks to hell since then. This is just a new level. My point is I don't think we're remotely at the nadir, yet. Not even remotely.

[Bevo 13442]

1 minute ago, SL Xpress said:

Well, I considered it a nightmarish disaster when Khomeni took over. It's been 40+ years of railroad tracks to hell since then. This is just a new level. My point is I don't think we're remotely at the nadir, yet. Not even remotely.

Iran's government can always sink lower - It's almost like the mullahs are thinking, "now watch this".