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2023 Ryder Cup - Marco Simone Golf & CC, Roma, Italy

Wally Fairway

By Wally Fairway
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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5,539

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So this thing kicks off in exactly 2 months (okay that is the Monday of hype week, matches are played 9/29, 9/30 and singles on 10/1)

Zach Johnson captains team USA - with 6 players earning their spot and 6 are Captains picks
Luke Donald captains team Euro (subbing for LIV Stenson) - same gig top 6 earn a spot, Captain gets 6 picks

Right now the 6 US players with the most points are Scottie, Wyndham Clark, Brian Harmon, Brooksie, Xander, and Patrick Slowly
Euro top 6 right now are  - Rory, Rahm, MacIntyre, Viktor, Hatton and Fleetwood

Next 10 for team USA are Homa, Cam Young, Spiethcoaster, Keegan, Morikawa, Rickie, Sam Burns, JT, Denny McCarthy and Kitayama
Next 10 for Euros are Yannik Paul,  Adrian Meronk, VIctor Perez, Rasmus Hojgaard, Adrian Otaegui, Shane Lowry, Jordan Smith, Jorge Campillo, Joost Luiten, Thorbear Oleson (or bett put a bunch of guys I've hardly ever heard of. Though I think Matt Fitzpatrick and Sepp Straka are strong contenders to get selected & there has to be some pressure to put Molinari on the team although he has missed the cut in his last 6 events, and his last top 10 finish was in January 2022.

Top 6 players is kind of a push in my minds, but team USA has more depth in the bottom half, and we get stronger by not having Pattty Reed on the team.

I like to see who can get hot in the next 5 weeks, final captain picks (USA) are after the Tour Championship (Aug 27), and Donald makes his picks after the Omega Open (Sept 4)

 

So later I will make what I would bet on being team USA - but today I will say I would like to see Captains picks of Homa, Jordan, Young, Burns, Rickie and someone who gets hot - FInau/Hoge/JT if he can find his game). I know how qualifying points works, but I'm kind of surprised that WIll Z is at no. 17, hell he hasn't played since January.
I am sure TV coverage will suck due to time difference, and I certainly hope it doesn't come down to the last few singles matches

 

USA! USA! USA!

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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On 7/25/2023 at 4:28 PM, Wally Fairway said:

Zach Johnson capt team USA - 6 players earning their spot,  6 Captain picks.  Current 6 US players with most pts are Scottie, Wyndham Clark, Brian Harmon, Brooksie, Xander, and Patrick Slowly

Euro top 6 right now are  - Rory, Rahm, MacIntyre, Viktor, Hatton and Fleetwood

Next 10 for team USA are Homa, Cam Young, Spiethcoaster, Keegan, Morikawa, Rickie, Sam Burns, JT, Denny McCarthy and Kitayama
Next 10 for Euros are Yannik Paul,  Adrian Meronk, VIctor Perez, Rasmus Hojgaard, Adrian Otaegui, Shane Lowry, Jordan Smith, Jorge Campillo, Joost Luiten, Thorbear Oleson (or bett put a bunch of guys I've hardly ever heard of. Though I think Matt Fitzpatrick and Sepp Straka are strong contenders to get selected & there has to be some pressure to put Molinari on the team although he has missed the cut in his last 6 events, and his last top 10 finish was in January 2022.

Top 6 players is kind of a push in my minds, but team USA has more depth in the bottom half, and we get stronger by not having Pattty Reed on the team.

I like to see who can get hot in the next 5 weeks, final captain picks (USA) are after the Tour Championship (Aug 27), and Donald makes his picks after the Omega Open (Sept 4)

So later I will make what I would bet on being team USA - but today I will say I would like to see Captains picks of Homa, Jordan, Young, Burns, Rickie and someone who gets hot - FInau/Hoge/JT if he can find his game). I know how qualifying points works, but I'm kind of surprised that WIll Z is at no. 17, hell he hasn't played since January.
I am sure TV coverage will suck due to time difference, and I certainly hope it doesn't come down to the last few singles matches

 

USA! USA! USA!

Nice touch on Patrick Slowly (Cantlay) 😂

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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I disagree that Justin Thomas is already in...

Ryder Cup team watch: Who's a lock for Italy, and who's staying home?

American summary

Definitely in: Scheffler, Clark, Harman, Koepka, Cantlay, Schauffele, Homa, Spieth, Young. Last three in: Fowler, Morikawa, Thomas. First four out: Bradley, Burns, Finau, McCarthy. Off the list: Dustin Johnson

European summary

Definitely in: McIlory, Rahm, Hatton, Fleetwood, Hovland, Lowry, Fitzpatrick, MacIntyre. Last four in: Straka, Meronk, Noren, Rose. First four out: Perez, Power, Paul, Hojgaard. Off the list: Migliuzzi, Hojgaard, Otaegui, Wallace.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ryder-cup-team-watch-whos-a-lock-for-italy-and-whos-staying-home/ar-AA1eGG4e

 

Ryder Cup Standings

Screenshot_20230804-085117_kindlephoto-4242970.thumb.png.17933c4a1ebc093de2d5166c00a15f00.png

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ztejas

ztejas 43,411

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They owe us an ass-whipping and I'm afraid we may get one. Feels like a transition year for us with some usual suspects out of form. 

Their top 6 is better but it's close. Harman and Clark will be first timers - MacIntyre is the only debutant for the Euros, Hovland has been once (but he's the 5th ranked player in the world) and the other four all have at least 2 apps. 

And they have two to our one of by far the three best players in the world. 

We'll see what happens. We haven't won in Europe since '93. 

I think Rickie is for sure our x-factor.

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texasdago

texasdago 7,564

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On 7/25/2023 at 7:49 PM, 4th&Five said:

Everything I’ve heard about the course has been negative. 

Don't know anything about this course but I do know that the vast vast majority of Italians don't give two shits about golf so this does not surprise me.  At least the catering should be amazing.

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5,539

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Team USA
 
RK NAME POINTS
1 25,857.74
2 13,406.92
3 10,614.75
4 10,310.54
5 9,421.15
6 8,848.76
7 8,830.27
8 8,066.33
9 7,795.31
10 7,503.48
11 7,486.47
12 7,002.70
13 6,936.49
14 6,539.20
15 6,280.67
16 6,112.61
17 5,824.27
18 5,529.13
19 4,976.09
20 4,931.88
21 4,667.75
22 4,576.99
23 4,553.09
24 4,550.27
25 4,365.35

Not yet - top 6 are automatic, the other 6 are Captains picks

Current standings
 

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ztejas

ztejas 43,411

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Schauffele and Spieth are absolute locks.

I would assume Keegan and Morikawa make it as well.

So there's just 2 open spots imo. I would guess you'd be choosing between Young, Burns, Rickie, JT and Glover. 

Edited by ztejas
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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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3 hours ago, ztejas said:

I would assume Keegan and Morikawa make it...  just 2 open spots imo, choosing between Young, Burns, Rickie, JT, Glover. 

So based on the course in Italy, which above players fit the best??  Never bad to have better accuracy off the tee, short game, and always need great putting.

On a side note, I'm not sold that Keegan should make this Ryder team

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ztejas

ztejas 43,411

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Keegan is an older guy with 2 Ryder apps and a Presidents cup app. He's ranked 16th in the world right now. He has two wins in the past year. He isn't very consistent week to week but neither are any of the guys ranked 8th and below. Spieth has 4 missed cuts in his last 8 events. Cam Young has a bunch of runner ups but has never won on Tour. He missed b2b cuts at the PGA and Memorial. Sam Burns has one top 10 in his last 12 events. 

When you're looking at a bunch of meh resumes I think stuff like past experience and maturity and leadership in the locker room counts extra. 

That said - no one's spot is safe outside of the automatic qualifiers, Schauffele and Spieth. It could be any combo of four guys after that.

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ztejas

ztejas 43,411

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Yeah I don't trust his game all that much - but Ryder is about having more good shots/holes than bad shots/holes. You aren't needing to string 4 rounds together.

It's why someone like Spieth is a no brainer. It doesn't matter if he fucks one out of bounds when it's AS thru 16 - he'll just go into the last 2 holes 1 down. 

I trust Keegan's game more than JT's right now at the very least. And like I said, he's an older guy with a great personality that would take the opportunity extremely seriously. 

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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Old article, but interesting info on course

Screenshot_20230814-154912_kindlephoto-17666906.thumb.png.1503590010a29fd1d8b52b24ba2aea97.png

 

Quote

September 05, 2021.   

The reviews are in. Some of them anyway. And the verdict, as ever where golf courses are concerned, is mixed. Depending on who you talk to, the Marco Simone Golf Club just outside Rome—venue for this week’s Italian Open on the European Tour and what will be the 44th Ryder Cup in 2023—is either a disaster waiting to happen or just another in a long line of so-so Old World venues for the biennial contest between Europe and the United States.

The original design by Jim Fazio and David Mezzacane is long gone and mourned by seemingly no one, which is not really surprising. Here’s the tip-off. Although the “old” course was deemed good enough to host the 1994 Italian Open won by Eduardo Romero, the event never returned. Clearly, there were issues.

So it was that, in order to be the last course standing in a bidding process that also included Germany, Austria and Spain, Italy’s first Ryder Cup venue was told to reconstruct all 18 holes ahead of the competition. Surely the most peculiar ask for a course hoping to hold an event of this stature.

“The initial goal was always to stage the 2021 Italian Open at Marco Simone,” says Guys Kinnings, European Tour Ryder Cup Director. “So the extra year we have been granted for the Ryder Cup is a bonus really. The 2023 Italian Open will obviously be earlier in the year than in 2021 and 2022. But we did that same thing with the French Open in 2018. I can’t say any of that with certainty, but we’d like to give the player, sponsors and the Italian Federation as much exposure to the venue as we can before the Ryder Cup.”

OK, so what have we got now? What have Tom Fazio II (son of Jim) and Jeremy Slessor of European Golf Design come up with for this week and beyond, specifically for when the Americans come visit in 2023?

“No holes stood out for me,” says Englishman Oliver Wilson, who played in the 2008 Ryder Cup at Valhalla. “Which is the problem really. The greens are immaculate, the surfaces brilliant. And yes, the undulations are nice and the green complexes are really good. But there are nine greens you can’t see when you are hitting your approach shot. There is so much elevation change. So the holes are not amazing. Not once did I think, ‘This is a great hole.’”

Other verdicts have been even less kind, to the point where more than one professional requested anonymity. Especially when the subject of the putting surface on the 219-yard par-3 seventh comes up.

“That green is horrendous,” says one player. “It looks like a cartoon where the character pulls up quickly and the ground curls up like a carpet. I watched one player chip his ball one yard onto the green and it finished over the back. Of a green that is 47 yards long.”

“The front half of the green is fine, but the back half is ridiculous, unless you are hitting a wedge,” says another competitor. “[Saturday] it played 220 yards, which made it impossible to hit that part of the green.”

And one more:

“The seventh green is appalling. It looks like the shaper was on a mission to screw the architect. They can’t be friends. So many waves and slopes and humps, it’s just too much. I’m not sure what they were trying to do. And these are the people who are building our arenas. It’s shocking.”

Screenshot_20230814-154619_kindlephoto-17493317.png.0db98d0614440eb8d342280f2f544d39.png

For all the concerns about the seventh, perhaps most troublesome is just the overall hilly site. As Wilson noted, as many as nine greens are sited well above the fairways, leaving the players struggling to see more than half of the distant flagsticks.

“I didn’t have the highest expectations and they have pretty much been confirmed,” sighs one player. “It is quite hilly, almost as much as Crans last week [the Swiss course that hosted the European Masters]. There are a few holes that are 10 to 15 yards up or down. On half of the course, we are down below hitting up to greens where we can see only the top of the pin. That’s not something I take great pleasure in.”

On the other hand, that harsh view is not universal. Former European Tour player Jay Townsend is sitting in the commentary box for Sky Sports this week.

“The greens really reward good shots,” insists the American. “Yes, there are some uphill holes. And yes, they always leave a little to be desired. But if a course is hilly, you have uphill holes. The rough is fine and consistent. The lies looked pretty much the same to me. There are a couple of immature spots on the fairways. But as young as the course is, it is in great condition. And the greens are as good as any putting surfaces I have ever seen. If you hit a good putt, it is going in. There are no imperfections out there.”

Indeed, the green surfaces have met with almost unanimous approval. But the combination of severe slopes and set-up? Not so much.

“You would not want the course to get too firm,” insists another player. “Plus, I’m not sure why we would build a course that would favor the Americans more than the Europeans. But I feel that is the case. Historically, the Americans have been longer than us. And here there are a few places where you can really cut the corners if you bomb it. Also, putting on undulating, quick greens is what the Americans are more used to. On both counts, we will likely be at a disadvantage. Yes, we can help things with the setup. But I’m not as impressed as I would like to be. Yes, it has time to mature before 2023. But it needs a manicure and a pedicure to get up to standard.”

Still, as everyone in golf knows, there is more to a Ryder Cup than just the quality of the 18 holes on display. With so little golf to actually watch—especially on the first two days when only four matches are on the course at any one time—the spectating experience is an important aspect to consider. Count Eddie Pepperell as a fan of that aspect of Marco Simone.

“This is a good match-play course and built perfectly for crowds,” contends the Englishman. “There are plenty of hills to stand on, so I think it will be a good venue. It has clearly been built with the Ryder Cup in mind. They’ve thought about the fans. There are plenty of high spots around the greens, creating amphitheaters. That’s all good. I’ve never been of the opinion that a Ryder Cup course has to be spectacular. It just has to be a great spectacle. This course has enough of that.”

Speaking of which, the closing holes at any Ryder Cup venue ideally have to be capable of producing thrills and spills, birdies and bogeys. And here again, the architects seem to have got things right. From the 14th tee onwards, the players will be faced with a pair of stiff par 4s, a potentially drivable par 4, a really tough par 3 and, to finish, a water-laden par 5 (pictured at top) where any number from 3 to 7 is in play.

“The 14th and 15th are two very good par 4s,” Pepperell continues. “You need to hit two very good shots on both to have a birdie chance. They can easily make the 16th drivable, and 17 is a brilliant par 3, maybe the best hole on the course. The green is long and thin with trouble on both sides. The 18th is a par 5 with all the ingredients to produce an exciting climax. Things will happen on those holes.”

While that remains to be seen, what is not in question, is that the course clearly requires time to “bed-in.” Open only since March, there are obvious and understandable signs of immaturity. Some of the “coarse” grass to be found on the fairways provoked negative comments from a number of players as did the patchiness of the rough. There were also a few (legitimate) moans and groans from those not blessed with huge power off the tee.

“Today I was in the middle of a fairway, on a downslope, hitting a 5-iron to a green way above me,” says Matt Fitzpatrick, a 2016 Ryder Cupper who will likely be playing again for Europe later this month at Whistling Straits. "It made no sense. I’ve hit a good drive, I’m in what should be the ideal spot, and I couldn’t keep my ball on the green.”

Still, with two more competitive opportunities to come before the Ryder Cup makes its way to Italy for the first time, European Tour players should by 2023 be reasonably familiar with the foibles of this new venue. More so than the Americans anyway. The mind goes back to Paris National two years ago. There, European skipper Thomas Bjorn set up the course up to suit his team, 12 men who had played the course multiple times.

In contrast, only Justin Thomas, who not coincidentally was the most successful U.S. player in the last Ryder Cup with a 4-0-1 record, took the trouble to familiarize himself with the premises by playing in the French Open three months earlier.

“Based on what happened in 2018, the Americans need to come over and play,” Townsend says. “Only JT did that then. And he played the best of the Americans by far in the Ryder Cup. The course over-required some local knowledge, and time will tell us that this one does, too.”

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5,539

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Does anyone know how the points work - my question is can Brooks drop to 7th if Spieth and/or X win the next couple of weeks. I don't mind Brooks being on the team, but wonder if he would be picked as a Captains pick as a LIV guy. Seems like fans love him or hate him; I liked him a few years back if for nothing else besides his beef with BDC. 

I think that right now my guess at Captains picks is X, Jordan, Morikawa, Rickie, Burns and some one who is hot (Lucas right now). I just don't think JT's playing well enough right now, sure he fits but it isn't a personality contests; and not getting picked could light a fire in him for the future.

And again I want to point out how the points are not a great way to choose a team when Will Z (who hasn't played since January) is #18 in points.

 

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ztejas

ztejas 43,411

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31 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Does anyone know how the points work - my question is can Brooks drop to 7th if Spieth and/or X win the next couple of weeks. I don't mind Brooks being on the team, but wonder if he would be picked as a Captains pick as a LIV guy. Seems like fans love him or hate him; I liked him a few years back if for nothing else besides his beef with BDC. 
 

I don't know what they'd need to do to pass him but it shouldn't matter. If we don't take Koepka we aren't trying to win. He and Rory are buddies. If the US guys can't get over him being on the team then, again, we don't deserve to win.

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TonyTexas

TonyTexas 10,505

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18 minutes ago, dieucla98 said:

I thought they had to play a certain number of Euro events to qualify and they are banned from playing those so they can't pick any LIV guys.

Do I have that wrong?

You’re right. The LIV players were suspended from the DP World Tour thus ineligible   That could change but the commissioner has stated they probably won’t be reinstated this year. 

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MrX

MrX 726

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Koepka is a stone killer. He’s gotta be on the team. Why would he give a fuck about regular LIV events. 

The JT thing is fascinating to me. I think you have to take him because of track record (and pairing with Spieth) but he’s made it a really tough decision. 

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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Screenshot_20230816-231026_kindlephoto-6637026.thumb.png.e9be5ffa724eba21fd1058af8508afa3.png

 

Luke Donald has named Italian Francesco Molinari as his fifth and final Vice Captain for the 2023 Ryder Cup which will be played at Marco Simone Golf & Country Club in Rome, from September 26 – October 1, 2023.

Molinari joins his brother Edoardo, Thomas Bjørn, Nicolas Colsaerts and José María Olazábal in Donald’s European backroom team for the biennial contest against the United States, which will be played in Italy for the first time.

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5,539

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On 8/15/2023 at 3:23 PM, dieucla98 said:

I thought they had to play a certain number of Euro events to qualify and they are banned from playing those so they can't pick any LIV guys.

Do I have that wrong?

Not sure after the kiss and make up announcement with PIF. It could just be that for being an auto qualifier & Donald can pick LIV, or maybe not. I don't give a shit about their team

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field

field 225

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Good summary of how players can automatically qualify for the Ryder Cup this week.

Scenarios for players to automatically qualify for the U.S. Ryder Cup Team at BMW Championship

Spoiler

Here’s a look at the unique scenarios for U.S. Team automatic qualification at this week’s BMW Championship, contested at Olympia Fields Country Club (North Course) outside Chicago.

Guaranteed to make the team:

Scottie Scheffler

Wyndham Clark

Patrick Cantlay

Minimum finish required to have a chance to auto-qualify:
(10 players outside the top six have a chance)

Xander Schauffele Two-way T43
Jordan Spieth Three-way T4
Cameron Young Two-way T3
Collin Morikawa Three-way T2
Keegan Bradley Three-way T2
Sam Burns Solo-2nd
Rickie Fowler Solo-2nd
Denny McCarthy Win
Lucas Glover Win
Kurt Kitayama Win

Brooks Koepka is bumped out if two of these things happen:

Max Homa Two-way T9
Xander Schauffele Solo-9th
Jordan Spieth Solo-3rd
Cameron Young Two-way T2
Collin Morikawa Solo-2nd
Keegan Bradley Solo-2nd
Sam Burns Win
Rickie Fowler Win
Denny McCarthy Win
Lucas Glover Win
Kurt Kitayama Win

Brian Harman is bumped out if:

Max Homa and Xander Schauffele finish in a two-way tie for second AND Jordan Spieth, Cameron Young, Collin Morikawa, Keegan Bradley, Sam Burns or Rickie Fowler wins.

Result required to guarantee a spot in the top six:

Brian Harman Solo-20th
Max Homa Runner-up finish (any ties)
Xander Schauffele Solo-2nd
Jordan Spieth Solo-2nd
Cameron Young Win
Collin Morikawa Win
Keegan Bradley Win

 

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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So if no JT in Ryder Cup, who is most likely to pair up with Spiethcoaster and Scottie ??? 

  • Scottie was paired with BCD before
  • Rickie has played with different partners
  • Koepka does not have Berger
  • Morikawa doesn't have DJ

 

I don't get the impression that Scottie is good buddies with Spiethcoaster...

 

Screenshot_20230820-114913_kindlephoto-7938808.thumb.png.4584b8ee12e82e482db33100d9d11b85.png

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dieucla98

dieucla98 2,942

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8 hours ago, LTtxfan said:

I don't get the impression that Scottie is good buddies with Spiethcoaster...

I don't agree - never seen anything to suggest that and more so, they play a lot together up at Dallas National. Check out the NLU interview they did of both of them. I didn't notice any animosity.

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dieucla98

dieucla98 2,942

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17 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Good God man. We are trying to compete. Koepka is going. 

You think we can't "compete" without the cancer of Koepka?

Koepka's defection and general dickheadedness aside, the US team is stacked top to bottom with or without him. Keep the potential cultural issue on the sidelines. 

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ztejas

ztejas 43,411

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6 minutes ago, dieucla98 said:

You think we can't "compete" without the cancer of Koepka?

Koepka's defection and general dickheadedness aside, the US team is stacked top to bottom with or without him. Keep the potential cultural issue on the sidelines. 

We aren't stacked. We are looking like we're going to get our asses kicked. 

Koepka isn't a cancer. Rory - the paragon of the PGA Tour - is buddies with him. If he can get over him - the guy that just one upped him for majors - I think our Ryder team can. 

If we don't take Koepka we aren't serious. 

Edited by ztejas
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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 49,142

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1 hour ago, dieucla98 said:

I don't agree - never seen anything to suggest that and more so, they play a lot together up at Dallas National. Check out the NLU interview they did of both of them. I didn't notice any animosity.

Hey, I might be wrong. 

I've just observed them together at Dell matchplay, and also a couple times on videos... Scottie's body language toward Spieth is at times negative.  

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