Maui is on fire

[FartingMonk 3606]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Shit like this happened in the wake of Katrina as well.  My truck and trailer was the first sign of relief supplies, workers, relief ANYTHING, to reach Slidell, 3 days after the floodwaters subsided.

As a country, we are not well-equipped to respond to large-scale disasters, and I really don't know why.  Hawaii has a huge military presence.  Why they aren't tasked with some logistics has always baffled me.  They are THE gov't organization that knows how to hop to it and be on the ground somewhere in 24 hours.  "FEMA" my ass.  FEMA does fine on a smaller scale, and a slower scale.  But for acute emergency response on a massive scale, this is one of the reasons you have a military.

It's because then you would have to close down Maui airport.  The Navy would almost be completely useless at this point.  There aren't too many surface ships based out of Hawaii and the ones that are would have a hard time getting supplies to land.  It would take the air force and a day of C-130 off loads to get the equipment there.  Then running single lane on that convoy would mean shutting down the roads for a day.  I think the only use the military would be is by using helicopters to the hard to reach areas.

 

It would be an apocalypse now humanitarian mission

Edited August 14, 2023 by FartingMonk

[tokamak 6392]

My guess is it has a lot to do with bureaucracy and individual people lacking agency to act. They know what needs to be done, but they need sign off from 13 people and to coordinate 6 different agencies before something can happen.

[Brisketexan 105066]

11 minutes ago, tokamak said:

My guess is it has a lot to do with bureaucracy and individual people lacking agency to act. They know what needs to be done, but they need sign off from 13 people and to coordinate 6 different agencies before something can happen.

Bingo.

Having dealt with local gov't personnel trying to get help in an ongoing disaster, I can tell you this is a VERY common dynamic and problem.

[FartingMonk 3606]

Oh and if you think local government on the mainland sucks.  Hawaii takes it to a whole new level of ineptitude 

[Beau Vine 54207]

8 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

Oh and if you think local government on the mainland sucks.  Hawaii takes it to a whole new level of ineptitude 

Usually because political appointments there are reserved SOLELY for family and friends.  

[otisdog 365]

I read that there were 13 firetrucks for Lanai, Molokai & Maui islands....the tiny island that I live on has that many.

[honolulu horn 6158]

19 hours ago, ClubWhatever said:

So what's the preferred charity?

It's posted on the first page of the thread. Hawaii Community Foundation will give 100% of all funds to victims. They will take no overhead. They are a pillar organization in Hawaii. My wife works closely with them and knows how they work with local communities (and she works with a bunch of other orgs that she is not recommending). Every amount helps and will go directly to victims: 

https://www.hawaiicommunityfoundation.org/maui-strong

 

[Goredho 17396]

Was looking for a timeline of known events, and I found this.
 

Spoiler

Lisa Vorpahl, a bank teller, woke to the sound of someone shuffling on her lanai. It was 3 a.m. on Tuesday when she looked out her bedroom window — along a dry, grassy slope overlooking her slice of tropical paradise — and realized it was just the wind.
...

For two days, National Weather Service employees in Honolulu had been sending out ominous alerts about powerful easterly gusts, whipped up by Hurricane Dora passing 500 miles to the south. They hit Maui at a time when much of the tropical island had been parched by severe drought, including the drier leeward side that includes Lahaina.

The next time Vorpahl woke up, she smelled smoke. The power was out.

A fire had started in the dry grass near her home on Lahainaluna Road, on a slope just east of the highway that bypasses downtown. Power poles fell in the neighborhood, and wires had snapped — leading several neighbors to later question whether electrical equipment had started the blaze.

Maui County authorities got the first reports of the fire by 6:37 a.m., and not long afterward, police were circulating in her neighborhood, calling out on megaphones for people to evacuate. Using a nearby hydrant, firefighters doused the flames.

...

They spent a few hours at their daughter’s apartment but returned home after Maui County — at 9:55 a.m. — sent out an alert that the brush fire was “100% contained.”

It looked that way to Eddy.

“Nothing was happening. A couple fire engines were there. They were all packing stuff up,” he said. “It looked 100 percent fine.”
...

Evening: Fleeing the firestorm
There was no emergency siren. No organized evacuation. Few instructions about how to proceed. Just a headlong grasp toward survival.

Annelise Cochran, a 30-year-old who worked for an ocean conservation nonprofit, couldn’t get out by car, and the building next to her was on fire. So she ran to the water. She saw her neighbor, Freeman, 86, struggling to walk. Another neighbor, Edna, was with him. Together, the three climbed over the rocky barrier to get away from the flames.

They spent hours in the water and on the rocks, Cochran said, trying to stay away from flying embers and choking smoke. Cars abandoned on Front Street began to explode. Waves of heat and toxic fumes washed over the sea.

At times, they had to move toward the fire when they began to feel dangerously cold. Cochran watched in horror as people held onto debris and floated away from shore.

“People still chose just to drift out,” she said.

...

So they knew for some days that conditions were going to be ripe for something catastrophic, then they had the better part of a day before people were saying fuck it, I'm taking my chances with the sharks and currents.  How does this tragedy happen without at least an attempt at a Dunkirk-like evacuation?

Edited August 14, 2023 by Goredho

[Wally Pryor 5261]

Thanks for posting. 

That's a tough read that captures the terror and onslaught of the hell that was endured. 

[Hank_Hill 18793]

2 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

It's because then you would have to close down Maui airport.  The Navy would almost be completely useless at this point.  There aren't too many surface ships based out of Hawaii and the ones that are would have a hard time getting supplies to land.  It would take the air force and a day of C-130 off loads to get the equipment there.  Then running single lane on that convoy would mean shutting down the roads for a day.  I think the only use the military would be is by using helicopters to the hard to reach areas.

 

It would be an apocalypse now humanitarian mission

No idea what size planes it could land but there is an airport on the west side

[FartingMonk 3606]

11 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

No idea what size planes it could land but there is an airport on the west side

Kapalua is the name I believe.  I flew in there from Oahu.  I think it was made mainly for puddle jumpers.  I mean the chair force have some pretty badass pilots.  They probably could land.  Taking off may be a different story.

[Hank_Hill 18793]

2 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

Thanks for posting. 

That's a tough read that captures the terror and onslaught of the hell that was endured. 

Yea, had a patient yesterday with second and third degree burns to the soles of bilateral feet. He was one of the folks in the water, 5 hours standing on the coral with those wounds watching that unfold. I can’t imagine.

[Wally Pryor 5261]

1 minute ago, Hank_Hill said:

Yea, had a patient yesterday with second and third degree burns to the soles of bilateral feet. He was one of the folks in the water, 5 hours standing on the coral with those wounds watching that unfold. I can’t imagine.

Holy shit. 

[honolulu horn 6158]

3 hours ago, Hank_Hill said:

Yea, had a patient yesterday with second and third degree burns to the soles of bilateral feet. He was one of the folks in the water, 5 hours standing on the coral with those wounds watching that unfold. I can’t imagine.

All the while breathing smoke and fending off ash and embers, and 80 mph winds, and hypothermia. And night ocean terror. 

People who are like "why not just jump into the ocean? Problem solved!" have absolutely no clue how horrifying that ordeal would be, or how lucky the survivors are. Many accounts of people (injured, out of shape, elderly, young) just floating out to the night sea never to be seen again. 

[Hank_Hill 18793]

Yea, haven’t heard anything and probably won’t but been wondering if the sharks were active over there that night. Absolute nightmare either way. 

[Wally Pryor 5261]

58 minutes ago, honolulu horn said:

All the while breathing smoke and fending off ash and embers, and 80 mph winds, and hypothermia. And night ocean terror. 

People who are like "why not just jump into the ocean? Problem solved!" have absolutely no clue how horrifying that ordeal would be, or how lucky the survivors are. Many accounts of people (injured, out of shape, elderly, young) just floating out to the night sea never to be seen again. 

Good point(s). Water was seen as a refuge but just delayed the inevitable for more than a few. 

 

[austingirl 2191]

9 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Usually because political appointments there are reserved SOLELY for family and friends.  

 

[Hank_Hill 18793]

People started receiving calls from real estate sharks already today trying to buy their property. Fucking disgusting.

[grazinhorn 472]

9 hours ago, Hank_Hill said:

People started receiving calls from real estate sharks already today trying to buy their property. Fucking disgusting.

Seriously worried about how fucked over people are going to be because of this.  I have been fortunate (even if I was a dumbass up to that point) to realize I was underinsured a couple of times and rectify it before it became a problem.  One of those sorta paid off, I was just in time. Anyway, my point is that it's easy to fuck that up without being a total slacker.  I am SURE there are a lot of people that are either underinsured or finding out that their local insurance company can't cover it all.  (Not a professional, so I don't have much idea what happens after that, but I get the fear/anxiety and how that affects decisions.)

I hate the thought that especially these people, under duress, may end up deciding to sign over to the sharks.  I know people are needing the essentials right now, but I would also contribute to a fund that would help fight this bullshit in the mid-term to long-term.  

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by grazinhorn

[FartingMonk 3606]

The bigger issue is going to be the people who didn't actually own the place they were living in.  Let's say it was a neighborhood of single family dwellings.  20 houses.  All rentals.  The owners get their insurance money and then developers come in and say hey before you rebuild.  Let me take this land off your hands for X amount of dollars.   He turns the 20 parcels into a hotel resort golf course or some luxury mix use residential/vacation rental.  The ones that are left high and dry are the people who were renting.

[Hank_Hill 18793]

Love this, need some pro bono boots on the ground for sure though which I’m sure is coming. 
 

I will say; for all the darkness this brought, I have never witnessed or been a part of a group of people so dedicated to helping eachother out. I’ve been out there twice as medical personnel and the grass roots effort is just so fucking amazing. I’ve shed tears multiple times out of sadness but also in awe of these peoples commitment to their ohana. These people have lost everything and do not hesitate to give every ounce of effort to someone next to them who somehow has less. It’s truly beautiful. 

[smokebomb 357]

7 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

The bigger issue is going to be the people who didn't actually own the place they were living in.  Let's say it was a neighborhood of single family dwellings.  20 houses.  All rentals.  The owners get their insurance money and then developers come in and say hey before you rebuild.  Let me take this land off your hands for X amount of dollars.   He turns the 20 parcels into a hotel resort golf course or some luxury mix use residential/vacation rental.  The ones that are left high and dry are the people who were renting.

The state needs to come in & restrict any development that significantly changes the original structures. Rebuild a single story home with a single story home.
 

But they won’t and Lahaina will become another Wailea. 

[Goredho 17396]

I reflected on that Washington post article this morning about people's horrific experiences trapped on a burning island in the middle of the ocean.

Then I realized we are all trapped on a burning planet in the middle of space.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Goredho

[Bevo 13567]

Well, Texas currently is burning - all we are missing are flames. My SIL says her new shingle roof is melting in Houston. I know my door weather strip at work melted in Austin.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Bevo

[Paco 1934]

Oh, sure. That's the same thing as an entire population center literally turned to ashes. 

[Beau Vine 54207]

3 hours ago, smokebomb said:

The state needs to come in & restrict any development that significantly changes the original structures. Rebuild a single story home with a single story home.
 

But they won’t and Lahaina will become another Wailea. 

Yeah, Lahaina was my favorite town in Hawaii because it was one of the few towns that actually looked like a real town.  

[Zeus 6014]

13 hours ago, Hank_Hill said:

People started receiving calls from real estate sharks already today trying to buy their property. Fucking disgusting.

This was the plan all along. 

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Fury-Implications-Climate-Change-ebook/dp/B0CFCTLXJJ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=W9SVM4PG33BD&keywords=maui+fire&qid=1692118642&sprefix=maui+%2Caps%2C290&sr=8-2

The book is already out

 

Fire and Fury: The Story of the 2023 Maui Fire and its Implications for Climate Change Kindle Edition

by Dr Miles Stones (Author) 

 

 

[Zeus 6014]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

On the idea that FEMA or the govt hasn't gotten there fast enough: FEMA is set up that people need to take care of themselves for up to 72 hours after a natural disaster. For events like hurricanes they might be able to expedite some help because there is more warning than a wildfire.

I'm sure that Hawaii presents challenges that the lower 48 does not quite have with disasters. We should treat every one and every disaster with the same response but there may be some practicalities.

For the idea of "developers" calling to buy land, there is an industry that teaches investors to call on properties constantly to low ball offers. That is what the real estate seminars teach them. I get calls every week for my house and. I imagine that prime Hawaii real estate owners get the same calls. And actually there is some validity to selling at this point. I wouldn't sell this afternoon but the owners may be facing years ahead of them to rebuild if they're relying on insurance funds.  Walking away with a nice payout and restarting somewhere else can be appealing. 

[Baboontyme 2809]

Fuck the conspiracy theory bullshitters. Fuck every last one of them. That stirs up the rage in me. 

[Hank_Hill 18793]

21 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

.

For the idea of "developers" calling to buy land, there is an industry that teaches investors to call on properties constantly to low ball offers. That is what the real estate seminars teach them. I get calls every week for my house and. I imagine that prime Hawaii real estate owners get the same calls. And actually there is some validity to selling at this point. I wouldn't sell this afternoon but the owners may be facing years ahead of them to rebuild if they're relying on insurance funds.  Walking away with a nice payout and restarting somewhere else can be appealing. 

No shit it’s probably in peoples best interest to sell, that said maybe wait until the fires are actually out and people aren’t still actively looking for family members bodies before trying to make them an offer.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

5 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

No shit it’s probably in peoples best interest to sell, that said maybe wait until the fires are actually out and people aren’t still actively looking for family members bodies before trying to make them an offer.

Rumors like this can spread with little to no truth behind it. No one knows if there are investors actually making offers but it’s a great story to share with others that it’s true especially with groups who were already distrustful if not hostile to outsiders.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Brisketexan 105066]

6 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

No shit it’s probably in peoples best interest to sell, that said maybe wait until the fires are actually out and people aren’t still actively looking for family members bodies before trying to make them an offer.

And let my competitor beat me to the punch on a literal "fire sale" property?  You sound like a loser, not a closer and a winner.  I AM A CLOSER AND A WINNER!

 

[No CR -- I just find all of those "how to succeed in real estate seminars" ridiculous]

Edited August 15, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Hank_Hill 18793]

2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Rumors like this can spread with little to no truth behind it. No one knows if there are investors actually making offers but it’s a great story to share with others that it’s true.

My colleague was literally handling a patient who got a call mid care. I walked up 5 minutes later and she was still going on about it, I don’t know all the Hawaiian curse words but pretty sure I heard them all coming out of her mouth. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Beau Vine 54207]

[Gourmand 7774]

 

[honolulu horn 6158]

12 hours ago, Hank_Hill said:

I will say; for all the darkness this brought, I have never witnessed or been a part of a group of people so dedicated to helping eachother out. I’ve been out there twice as medical personnel and the grass roots effort is just so fucking amazing. I’ve shed tears multiple times out of sadness but also in awe of these peoples commitment to their ohana. These people have lost everything and do not hesitate to give every ounce of effort to someone next to them who somehow has less. It’s truly beautiful. 

At the risk of sounding like aggy, Hawaii really is a unique place that can't really be understood unless you live there. I've lived in multiple cities, states, and countries and the Hawaiian resilience and communal approach is unlike anything I've experienced anywhere else in the world. 

Also, anyone spouting off their conspiracy theories can fuck right off. There's no fucking conspiracy. Any amount of time a conspiracy theorist spends spewing their bullshit on TikTok is time that they could actually be putting to use helping the situation -- organizing donations, volunteering time, etc. 

[RPM 26317]

It's always easy to point fingers after a disaster. Lawyers and landgrabbers will have a feeding frenzy. But one thing I saw posted from a local was there were only 13 fire engines on the island. That seems very low for even a medium size structure fire and reserve force. An island is like a ship at sea and the absolute worst thing on a ship at sea is fire. The only resource to stop it is you and the design of the ship. Failure to prepare on either part is on you. This was failure on both parts with a huge dose of Mother Nature wild card mixed in. They need to greatly increase the number and capabilities of engines. Future power lines should be buried and definitely come up with a fire escape plan to prevent the deathjams that occurred.

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:35 PM, FartingMonk said:

Kapalua is the name I believe.  I flew in there from Oahu.  I think it was made mainly for puddle jumpers.  I mean the chair force have some pretty badass pilots.  They probably could land.  Taking off may be a different story.

In general terms, peacetime requirements for 130's is set at a 6000' runway. Combat at 3000' though they can land and takeoff in less than that. My unit set up runways for them in the 80's at or under 3500' for SpecOps and many of those were dirt strips. My old unit and the 130 jocks especially, (greatly under appreciated and overlooked) are still doing those short field landings today. 

For those on here wanting the military (National Guard first due to being a state run asset) or FEMA to step in quickly /ASAP , that has to be requested by the state authority (Governor) before the Feds can come in and just start taking over. As noted above, Blackhawks would be best utilized for any movement for supplies and evac so as to not clog roads and making a bad situation worse. The first air units ( 5 Blackhawks for SAR and 1 support Chinook) into Katrina were from TXNG Texas Task Force 1  (Camp Murray and SA) flown by guardsmen with the rescue swimmers coming from ATCEMS SpecOps/STARFlight. The Coast Guard had moved their air units inland and east to avoid any damage so the Texas crews flew in from the west the following morning at daybreak and were first over the city evacuating people. The FEMA teams delay with Katrina happened due to a (no CR) Dem governor not wanting federal help from a Republican administration. Even with those delays, multiple DMAT (Disaster Assistance Medical Teams) were deployed to the airport and others to the Superdome, working under pretty abysmal conditions (no power /plumbed water) but treating and evacuating up to or more than 1500 patients daily. Those problems were improved upon with AARs and better pre-deployment of assets in the following years with subsequent storms.

In 2006 and it turned out to downgrade to a tropical storm once landfall, but numerous federal FEMA teams with state staffing (26 or more if my memory is right) were pre-deployed throughout Atlanta ( easier access to mobilize to outlying areas wherever landfall was made or heaviest destruction) for Hurricane/TS Ernesto. This was the first major storm after Katrina with major damage expected. Those teams included both SAR and DMAT and mobilized for at least a week prior (hurricanes much easier to predict /pre-stage than wildfires). Ernie turned out to give really nothing more than a pretty good light show and thunderstorm in downtown ATL. Most teams were demobilized soon after that first week.

 

[Hank_Hill 18793]

Annnnddddddd now the suicides are really picking up 

[FartingMonk 3606]

Maui's Chief of Diaster Response has no experience in Diaster Response.  Cronyism at its best

[FartingMonk 3606]

This shit gets better and better.  While the wildfires were going on.  Every official was in Oahu at the Disney resort attending the FEMA diaster preparedness conference.   

[hookemATL 11702]

5 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

Every official was in Oahu at the Disney resort attending the FEMA diaster preparedness conference. 

“Please everyone pay attention to this important video. This could save yours or your residents’ lives someday!”

the video:

[Js1 85276]

4 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

Maui's Chief of Diaster Response has no experience in Diaster Response.  Cronyism at its best

Maybe they should hire Fitlump

[deadshank 24652]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:41 AM, Bevo said:

Well, Texas currently is burning - all we are missing are flames. My SIL says her new shingle roof is melting in Houston. I know my door weather strip at work melted in Austin.

Tell your sister to rest easy.  Her new shingle roof is not melting.  
 

Also, rules.  

[Hate 20106]

Annnnddddddd now the suicides are really picking up 

Damn…I can’t imagine what those people must be going through. Thanks to you for your helping those people!

[Shaggy3.0 1695]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Maybe they should hire Fitlump

That would be hornism, rather than cronyism

 

[wildcat09 29346]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:43 PM, Zeus said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is QAnon level nonsense.

[Hank_Hill 18793]

Solid breakdown here

[Nathan Jessep 147]

Wow what a moment. Don’t want to CR this thread but this is why I’m proud this guy is my President. Empathetic, connects with people that are struggling. He just that “it” about him. He went to Maui today to lend his support.