Kerrville’s Founder’s Tree cut down. It was too damn big.

[aggie08 21504]

9 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

completely nonpolitical topics

Really, dude? Granted, his post was way too CR, but how much do you want to bet that I could guess everyone involved in this decision's voting preference and their thoughts on the causes of global warming--if they even acknowledge its existence? One party's mantra has become "fuck the future, get yours." This decision wasn't made independently of politics.

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

19 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

ok, jokes aside, this is fucking tragic. how on earth could this have happened? the fucking founder's tree in kerrville? how is that not somehow a protected tree?

That would require some sort of regulation by somebody with the legal power to enforce it, though, right?

[Celery Man 20962]

19 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

to be fair, that guy on the right has actually worked very hard to reach level 48 wizard necromancer, so, you know, uh, just, um, steer clear of him at dinner parties?

ok you're supposed to just not eat at cracker barrel?

[hayden_horn 11362]

24 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Really, dude? Granted, his post was way too CR, but how much do you want to bet that I could guess everyone involved in this decision's voting preference and their thoughts on the causes of global warming--if they even acknowledge its existence? One party's mantra has become "fuck the future, get yours." This decision wasn't made independently of politics.

just read my editorial link above. It's not political to say these people have very political seeming motivations. 

honestly i don't know how to separate that from the discussion

[Guest]

Fuck that tree. If there's anything the Hill Country needs less of, it's greenery and shade. If it didn't want to be cut down, what the hell is it doing near the river in a prime spot for a hotel? That tree was fucking asking for it.

[BabaYaga 15300]

This thread was nothing if not predictable

[Da Fino 2783]

20 hours ago, Chooky said:

Here are the wizards comprising this brilliant decision. 

I assume that the roseanne in the pantsuit is Sandy Cailloux?

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

 

My boss was called for a civil jury trial some years back. Somebody buys some rural land in the Davis Mountains and builds a big ass house. On neighbor's undeveloped property sat a huge Texas Madrone, which was blocking the view from the house's porch, so the guy just trespasses and cuts the tree down. Neighbor sues.

During voir dire, the defense lawyer asks my boss what he thinks, and my boss says "[defendant] should be hung up by his nuts until the vultures are done with him." He didn't make the jury.

 

Pics of Texas Madrones, if you don't know what they look like:

 

 

 

They are very slow growing, the one the size of the one that was cut down was probably over 200 yrs old.

 

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Really, dude? Granted, his post was way too CR, but how much do you want to bet that I could guess everyone involved in this decision's voting preference and their thoughts on the causes of global warming--if they even acknowledge its existence? One party's mantra has become "fuck the future, get yours." This decision wasn't made independently of politics.

Ok. But there’s how many millions of deep red rural votes that wouldn’t have dared fuck with that oak in a million years.  

This was a (poor) financial decision, that appears to be driven by a financial incentive (property sell). Fuck all to do with how someone voted over the last decade.   
 

ps: lots of people from lots of backgrounds do inexplicably dumb shit for $$$. But by all means continue to believe only one side does.  

['stache 21817]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Really, dude? Granted, his post was way too CR, but how much do you want to bet that I could guess everyone involved in this decision's voting preference and their thoughts on the causes of global warming--if they even acknowledge its existence? One party's mantra has become "fuck the future, get yours." This decision wasn't made independently of politics.

I see the parallel. Not every right winger is an asshole who would cut down a historic tree for purely selfish reasons, but most people who would do something like that are right wingers. I agree 100%. It's also in line with fucking over the environment for profit. One side of the political spectrum has it as a party platform. 

[texasdago 7573]

Not cutting down that amazing tree seems to be a very strong bipartisan issue.  It seems like this particular person was just a bonafide jackass, regardless of political leanings.

[BabaYaga 15300]

Most sales people would sponsor a baby-seal-bashing party if it meant closing the deal. 

[RDCanecutter 26446]

31 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Most sales people would sponsor a baby-seal-bashing party if it meant closing the deal. 

See this watch?

[BabaYaga 15300]

10 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

See this watch?

[Kennythetiger 9389]

23 hours ago, Braff Zacklin said:

 

 

I hope you knocked first to get the bees out. 

[tigol 2398]

Ok. But there’s how many millions of deep red rural votes that wouldn’t have dared fuck with that oak in a million years.  
This was a (poor) financial decision, that appears to be driven by a financial incentive (property sell). Fuck all to do with how someone voted over the last decade.   
 
ps: lots of people from lots of backgrounds do inexplicably dumb shit for $$$. But by all means continue to believe only one side does.  

Lay down with dogs, you get fleas.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

Some on here might call me “right winger”, but I love trees, wildlife, and clean Hill Country Rivers and Streams and hate development without considering these key things.   There is zero reason this tree couldn’t have been utilized in this development.   True this was out of reach of city ordinance, but developers who have to deal with tree ordinances of one sort or another seem to adjust.  A smart developer  firm would’ve seen that tree and made it a focal point for the whole development.    Period.    
 

Down here Rockport has done a good job with preserving the natural trees and it forced developers to get creative.    
 

[tigol 2398]

Some on here might call me “right winger”, but I love trees, wildlife, and clean Hill Country Rivers and Streams and hate development without considering these key things.   There is zero reason this tree couldn’t have been utilized in this development.   True this was out of reach of city ordinance, but developers who have to deal with tree ordinances of one sort or another seem to adjust.  A smart developer  firm would’ve seen that tree and made it a focal point for the whole development.    Period.    
 
Down here Rockport has done a good job with preserving the natural trees and it forced developers to get creative.    
 

Fucking liberal CR bitch.

[Armybrat 40850]

5 hours ago, troph said:

Honestly 3 years in prison for cutting that down seems appropriate. What in the actual fuck? We don’t get to consume the Earth without the Earth saying FAFO to us. Same goes for clear cutting land. I’m so fucking tired of our callousness. We are not above nature, we are a part of it. Time we started fucking acting like it again. 

Remember the Austin Treaty Oak tragedy in 1989?

IIRC, the asshole who used Velpar to poison it got 9 years in the slammer. (But only served 3)

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/austin-treaty-oak-poisoning-crime-files/269-871f0c0a-3f0b-4105-92ad-a53429d2a065#:~:text=A chemical analysis showed that,it cool in the summer.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Armybrat

[You don't know me 1161]

4 hours ago, Da Fino said:

I assume that the roseanne in the pantsuit is Sandy Cailloux?

Keep up.  He's a level 48 necromancer.  Christ almighty, it's like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids or something.

[Willfully Horn 8018]

4 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

My boss was called for a civil jury trial some years back. Somebody buys some rural land in the Davis Mountains and builds a big ass house. On neighbor's undeveloped property sat a huge Texas Madrone, which was blocking the view from the house's porch, so the guy just trespasses and cuts the tree down. Neighbor sues.

During voir dire, the defense lawyer asks my boss what he thinks, and my boss says "[defendant] should be hung up by his nuts until the vultures are done with him." He didn't make the jury.

 

Pics of Texas Madrones, if you don't know what they look like:

 

 

 

They are very slow growing, the one the size of the one that was cut down was probably over 200 yrs old.

 

 

Found in West Texas, and West Austin.

[Dewey 3286]

15 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Remember the Austin Treaty Oak tragedy in 1989?

IIRC, the asshole who used Velpar to poison it got 9 years in the slammer. (But only served 3)

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/austin-treaty-oak-poisoning-crime-files/269-871f0c0a-3f0b-4105-92ad-a53429d2a065#:~:text=A chemical analysis showed that,it cool in the summer.

He's lucky he did 3 years, most of Austin wanted to kill him. 

[Celery Man 20962]

sales guys would promise "burn down a majestic live oak" as part of the deal and declare "not my problem" when they find out it takes 100 years to grow

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Down here Rockport has done a good job with preserving the natural trees and it forced developers to get creative.    
 

Love the windblown oaks on the coast.   

[DDD Dad 14339]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:19 PM, atomheartbevo said:

Of course that little shit would think it's "too big"

 

On 8/10/2023 at 12:57 PM, Wiler77 said:

Who said inconvenience?  It's was "too big".  WTF does that even mean?

 

 

On 8/10/2023 at 2:42 PM, Biff Tannen said:

No too high.  Too hard.

[elfenix 34266]

1,2,x,x,x

[aggie08 21504]

4 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

ps: lots of people from lots of backgrounds do inexplicably dumb shit for $$$. But by all means continue to believe only one side does.  

Not at all what I said, but you do you.

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

6 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

My boss was called for a civil jury trial some years back. Somebody buys some rural land in the Davis Mountains and builds a big ass house. On neighbor's undeveloped property sat a huge Texas Madrone, which was blocking the view from the house's porch, so the guy just trespasses and cuts the tree down. Neighbor sues.

During voir dire, the defense lawyer asks my boss what he thinks, and my boss says "[defendant] should be hung up by his nuts until the vultures are done with him." He didn't make the jury.

 

Pics of Texas Madrones, if you don't know what they look like:

 

 

 

They are very slow growing, the one the size of the one that was cut down was probably over 200 yrs old.

 

 

I like your boss, just based on this.  Madrones are awesome.

[troph 24810]

I believe a 200 year old tree has earned more of a right to be here than any of us piece of shit cocksucker humans. There I said it. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by troph

[Bookman 4639]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:04 PM, 'stache said:

Humans are the worst thing to ever happen to this planet. 

I don't think we are worse than mosquitos.

[troph 24810]

3 minutes ago, Bookman said:

I don't think we are worse than mosquitos.

[Deej 76806]

45 minutes ago, troph said:

I believe a 200 year old tree has earned more of a right to be here than any of us piece of shit cocksucker humans. There I said it. 

[MrBig 5412]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:54 PM, Chooky said:

Here are the wizards comprising this brilliant decision. 

I’m predicting this from now on after all the backlash

[Guest]

5 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Most sales people would sponsor a baby-seal-bashing party if it meant closing the deal. 

Most buyers would supply the seals if it meant getting a better deal.

(isn't swinging that broad-ass brush fun?)

Edited August 11, 2023 by slorch

[Kennythetiger 9389]

3 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Some on here might call me “right winger”, but I love trees, wildlife, and clean Hill Country Rivers and Streams and hate development without considering these key things.   There is zero reason this tree couldn’t have been utilized in this development.   True this was out of reach of city ordinance, but developers who have to deal with tree ordinances of one sort or another seem to adjust.  A smart developer  firm would’ve seen that tree and made it a focal point for the whole development.    Period.    
 

Down here Rockport has done a good job with preserving the natural trees and it forced developers to get creative.    
 

I’m a registered republican but I have been to so many regenerative farming and ranching classes that I feel more like a goddamn hippie than the windblown redneck that I am. 
Leave it and pass it on down. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

9 hours ago, troph said:

Honestly 3 years in prison for cutting that down seems appropriate. What in the actual fuck? We don’t get to consume the Earth without the Earth saying FAFO to us. Same goes for clear cutting land. I’m so fucking tired of our callousness. We are not above nature, we are a part of it. Time we started fucking acting like it again. 

Clearcutting actually similulates natural environmental disturbances to an extent that would exist if not for the meddling of humans. It's also necessary if you want to have houses.

[HouTex 1878]

Old trees are serious business.  

[troph 24810]

5 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Clearcutting actually similulates natural environmental disturbances to an extent that would exist if not for the meddling of humans. It's also necessary if you want to have houses.

Not really, avalanches, fires, floods all still occur. And clear cutting is not done in any way that’s helpful for the land in these cases. And you don’t have to clear cut for houses, but often you do for most profit. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by troph

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

Fires specifically don't occur at near the rate that they historically did. And if we didn't practice forestry like we do with southern pine (clearcutting), there is no way that we would be able to meet the need that we have for housing.

That said, it is often done poorly, and often because landowners hire loggers to do it instead of hiring a forester. A properly done clear-cut will leave streamline management zones with a minimal amount of basal area uncut, and will also leave strips along roads and such uncut so that the general public doesn't have to see how ugly it is. Because it is ugly. But clear cuts provide habitat for all kinds of wildlife that wouldn't otherwise have it. Saying clear-cuts are bad is like saying agriculture is bad, because that is what it is. Unless you just hate people in general, I think agriculture is pretty necessary. 

[Ten Bears 2481]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:46 PM, 'stache said:

"Abbott — who himself ran into tree trouble several years ago . . ."

 

Yeah, I thought that was gonna go a different direction, lol.

 

That was some upper level trolling by the Kerville paper.

[Willfully Horn 8018]

Moving the tree did not receive enough discussion.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

Moving a tree that big and old is kind of like looking at a really old person hooked up to life support and on dialysis and chemo all at the same time and saying, "we should move them to a different hospital." Sure it might work, and that other hospital is probably better, but is it really a smart thing to do?

[closetohumping 17442]

12 hours ago, HouTex said:

Old trees are serious business.  

That’s right.  It was standing in the way of progress. Buh bye tree

[troph 24810]

9 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Fires specifically don't occur at near the rate that they historically did. And if we didn't practice forestry like we do with southern pine (clearcutting), there is no way that we would be able to meet the need that we have for housing.

That said, it is often done poorly, and often because landowners hire loggers to do it instead of hiring a forester. A properly done clear-cut will leave streamline management zones with a minimal amount of basal area uncut, and will also leave strips along roads and such uncut so that the general public doesn't have to see how ugly it is. Because it is ugly. But clear cuts provide habitat for all kinds of wildlife that wouldn't otherwise have it. Saying clear-cuts are bad is like saying agriculture is bad, because that is what it is. Unless you just hate people in general, I think agriculture is pretty necessary. 

You cannot compare clear cutting for development with good forestry practice.  That might be the most laughable post in the history of surly. 

[HouTex 1878]

4 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Moving a tree that big and old is kind of like looking at a really old person hooked up to life support and on dialysis and chemo all at the same time and saying, "we should move them to a different hospital." Sure it might work, and that other hospital is probably better, but is it really a smart thing to do?

Yep.  I’ve always thought a tree that large and old could not be moved without killing it.  Worth a try though—if I owned it. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

24 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Yep.  I’ve always thought a tree that large and old could not be moved without killing it.  Worth a try though—if I owned it. 

It’s expensive but there are heavy haul companies that do it. Used to be a pic of Barnhart moving a huge oak, think it was a govt paid deal. The jacking equipment and Goldhoffers are expensive, but utilities, bucket trucks, escorts etc are what would really hurt. There’s a pic of them moving one considerably larger than this somewhere. Can’t speak to the success of replant but bet it isn’t good.

Edited August 12, 2023 by fattyflattie

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

1 hour ago, troph said:

You cannot compare clear cutting for development with good forestry practice.  That might be the most laughable post in the history of surly. 

I didn't realize you meant clearcutting for development. We should definitely be doing more multifamily and other denser development to avoid cutting down out forests.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

It’s expensive but there are heavy haul companies that do it. Used to be a pic of Barnhart moving a huge oak, think it was a govt paid deal. The jacking equipment and Goldhoffers are expensive, but utilities, bucket trucks, escorts etc are what would really hurt. There’s a pic of them moving one considerably larger than this somewhere. Can’t speak to the success of replant but bet it isn’t good.

I'm just a small town country lawyer, but I say the rule/law/protocol should be if you encounter a tree like this that's in your way, it was there first. You move, don't make the tree move.

I bet they put in a Buc-ees in this spot or some shit.

[fattyflattie 4639]

32 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I'm just a small town country lawyer, but I say the rule/law/protocol should be if you encounter a tree like this that's in your way, it was there first. You move, don't make the tree move.

I bet they put in a Buc-ees in this spot or some shit.

Irony being that Aplin could afford to  move it, while most couldn’t. 

[Willfully Horn 8018]

Thanks for the moving discussion. Prompted me to look into the matter. Here’s an article about moving the “Taco Bell” heritage tree, which I gather was at the old TB at the Y in Oak Hill. Almost a decade ago, the cost was $200,000, and the moving company claims its success rate was pretty damn good, 95%.
 

Quote

Back in the 1970s and ’80s, it probably looked like something out of Dazed and Confused. Teenagers pulling up in T-Birds, wind in their hair, to hang out in the parking lot of a Taco Bell. The sun would set in the Hill Country to the west, sending a glow through the branches of an old Live Oak tree. Today the Taco Bell and the teenagers are long gone, but the tree remains, affectionately known as the “Taco Bell Tree.”

It’s also now at an intersection best known for being a traffic nightmare – the Y at Oak Hill –  where two highways intersect and a third road feeds into the jumble. In order to improve that intersection, the state embarked on a temporary plan to expand it that would help for the next five years, while something longer term is put into place. The plan included cutting down the Taco Bell Tree, which has been here long before drive-thrus (or even combustion engines). All right, all right, all right.

Texas trees have to be hardy. There are Live Oaks along the Gulf Coast that survived Hurricane Katrina while buildings around them toppled; those trees probably survived other storms long before that. But as the Lone Star State grows, it needs more roads. More homes. More developments. The big trees are now coming into conflict with a state that can’t help keep getting bigger. And the trees can either be cut down, built around, or, as in the case of the Taco Bell Tree, they can be moved. At a hefty price.

To understand why it’s such an expensive and difficult process to move a heritage tree, it helps to talk to Michael Fossum, who heads the Austin Heritage Tree Foundation. That group has led the effort to save the Taco Bell Tree and other heritage trees in Central Texas. (While Austin has a heritage tree ordinance to protect trees like this one, it doesn’t supersede the authority of TxDOT to cut them down.)

You can see that it has a very thick, robust canopy,” Fossum says, pointing to the large Live Oak. The diameter at its base is around 35 inches. “So we see a nice green, large canopy – it’s about fifty feet in diameter, about thirty feet tall. Just a great specimen of a Central Texas Live Oak.”

PHOTO BY TERRENCE HENRY/STATEIMPACT TEXAS

Michael Fossum of the Austin Heritage Tree Foundation points out a Cedar Elm that has been hollowed out by lightning. It's still alive. "This is a good example of what survivors trees are," Fossum says.

Fossum’s group convinced TxDOT to give them time to raise money to move the tree. They came up with $20,000, while the City of Austin put together the rest, around $90,000. All to move one tree across the street – about one stoplight and fifty yards away – where it will join others in a grove along Williamson Creek. Why such a steep price tag?

For that fifty feet of the Taco Bell Tree’s canopy, there’s an even bigger root system below we can’t see. In a way, trees are like icebergs. There’s a lot more going on underneath the ground than you realize. The ratio can be as high as 12:1 for the roots to the canopy. In this case, that means that for 50 feet of canopy, you’re accounting for 600 feet of roots. And that root system is the most delicate part of the process.

“For a tree to survive and thrive, you’ve got to have enough roots to support the tree. And that’s the key aspect of doing this,” says Mark Merit, with Environmental Design, a company that specializes in moving trees. They’ve been at it for nearly forty years, moving trees for the 9/11 memorial, on the Pebble Beach golf course, even a tree at Lance Armstrong’s old house. (The price tag for that cosmetic project? Reportedly $200,000.) And yes, Environmental Design got the contract to move the Taco Bell Tree.

Merit points out that the idea of moving a tree so it can continue to grow is nothing new. We know it at least goes back to Egyptian times, when the Pharaoh Hatshepsut had a few dozen Myrrh trees (used for perfume) moved from the land of Punt to her temple in Egypt. The trees were carefully transplanted by digging around their root system and moving them with their native soil. Once transplanted, they thrived, and the act of tree transplanting was born.

Tree transplanting has continued through the ages, Merit says. There are trees that were moved in the 1800s in Great Britain that were already a thousand years old. Many of them are still alive today.

It’s much cheaper and easier to cut down a heritage tree in the face of development. A TxDOT construction worker at the intersection project who would only give his first name, Jimmy, told me that if the trees are removed, “we don’t have to be so careful of our digging, breaking limbs. But if we can save them, we save a lot of trees. We’d like to save more if we could.”

And if you’re going to build around them, it has to be done carefully. “The way we’re developing our area now, there’s less and less room for these big trees,” Fossum says. “They need a certain amount of soil volume.” Several Live Oaks in the small town of Snook, Texas that are hundreds of years old were spared from the axe of TxDOT after a public outcry. The agency simply moved the road a bit, and will have the heritage trees become part of the median.

But sometimes the only option left is to move a tree. And if you are going to move a heritage tree, you need to start with those extensive roots. The tree is trenched around, the root system mapped out, and the ends of some of the roots pruned to signal to them that they’re going to need to start growing out again. The roots are gathered and wrapped up, creating the “root ball.”

“Then there should be a time period where you add soil amendments and water the roots in order to stimulate root growth, so you have a healthy root ball,” Fossum says.

Step two is cutting the soil underneath the tree and getting a flat platform underneath there. That will protect the root system when it gets moved.

“Somebody described it once like you’re trying to pick up a wedding cake with your hands,” Merit says. “You’re gonna make a mess out of it. So with a structural platform it’s like putting a plate underneath it. And now you just lift on the plate and it works fine.”

This is where things can get really expensive. That’s because in addition to the weight of the tree and its roots, you’ve got the weight of all that dirt encasing the roots coming along for the ride. That soil mass can weigh as much as ten times as much as the actual tree. In all, for a large tree like this, the weight could be almost 400,000 pounds.

Here’s a way of picturing it: that’s as much weight as two dozen adult African elephants. Being moved with one crane. For the Taco Bell Tree, that alone will take five days. They’ll have to close the road at night.

Then at the new site across the road, a large hole will be dug and the tree carefully placed inside. The root ball will be uncovered, and the tree will be watched – and most importantly, watered – over the next five years.

“Moisture. That’s absolutely the number one thing,” says Merit with Environmental Design. “Not enough is bad. Too much is probably even worse.” When done correctly, Merit says, transplanting trees has a pretty high success rate, around 95 percent.

 

https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2014/03/25/why-its-so-damn-hard-to-move-a-heritage-tree/