HOW AMERICA GOT MEAN

[hayden_horn 11360]

people have always been mean. been meaner than now. and we are gonna get meaner before we get more civil. 

main reason is that good old fashioned god fearing white folks are running out of acceptable boogeymen upon whom to project all their anger about their own insecurities. this is having the double result of 1) that formerly directed anger spilling over and hitting friendlies amd 2) that anger has metastasized as it has lost its original scapegoat direction and cathartic release

[AnTiM 1659]

The person who wrote this line from Men In Black must have seen this current mess coming.

 

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. "

[Dnaguy 11777]

To add to @hayden_horn's point or at least how I interpreted it:

 

It feels mean now b/c we're at a generational ,cultural, and technological inflection point.

 

The largest generation (Boomers) that are mostly white and have a super majority of the wealth in this county are dying out.

The republican party that is attached to this generation at the hip -Reaganism, trickle-down, lower taxes, greed-is-goodism, big goburment is bad, etc

It hasn't changed policies / ideas because it has had such a demographic advantage and faced with the existential threat that is the death of Boomers, has chosen to play the card of fear, authoritarianism, scapegoating, anti-democratic election rigging, etc to hold onto power. They have rigged government and now are using the levers of the rigged government along with their wealth to maintain power when they should have started to show a decline in their influence from a strictly generational standpoint. However, due to point 1.) this is delayed.

Newer generations are browner, have less, weren't given the same breaks, and don't see government responding to their needs / don't see the same opportunities as their parents. They're pretty pissed about it.

The personal computer is 40 years old, the internet as we know it is ~ 25-30 years old, and 'social media' is now ~ 20, and the iphone is ~15. The patina has worn off in regards the early optimism that  these brought and it carried in the 90's and 00's. The iphone still has some runway, but I imagine in 5-10 years we're going to find out that we all have ball cancer or that our brains are fundamentally broken due to smartphones. IDK. You already see the 'screentime' adage. 

The warts of the technology are showing as does almost all things in this time period. Think cars or nuclear energy, etc.

Now enter AI, which is destabilizing but should unlock efficiencies in the economy and lead to growth. However, just like any period of growth, it will create losers in addition to the winners. Hence, destabilizing. But you throw this into the cauldron of teh aforementioned technology and it can also get combustible as we still haven't truly reconned with the internet / social media / iphone (meaning it's always present). Having not learned any lessons it seems, are we just going to compound the earlier issue with AI. Hence, destabilizing. 

 

And the world seems to not be getting better.... and we're still just hashing out the same old shit that some adults have been dealing with their entire lives:

Geopolitically, we're dealing with massive migration events due to civil wars of the 2010's that were a result of failed / destabilizing policies of the 2000's. 

Lack of investment in Latin American governments due to taking the eye off the ball and focusing on the middle east / terrorism in the 21st century has created migration events in the western hemisphere. 

Failed drug policy for the last 50 years has also created an almost intractable Narco infrastructure / pseudo-state in Mexico.

I could go on. 

But what's the last true 'win' geopolitically. I can argue Ukraine, but that's still going on and it's hard to call a land war in Europe a win. Feels super weird.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

I am just glad that with our country getting filled up with people that are meaner to each other and angry all the time it’s a good thing we allow the purchase of unlimited fire arms.  Those two data points together should lead to some fun times in the future.  

[HenryJames 65890]

By David Brooks

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

This topic reminds me of Gov. Pritzker's commencement speech at Northwestern this year.  I definitely think the decreasing prestige of intelligence and the increasing presence of "meanness" are related.

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Chuckie Finster

[horn4life 3755]

The Simple Truth is the Republican party is a minority party, and the only way to have a chance at winning, is anger.  And anger must be continually stoked. Brooks fails to look at how much his party is responsible for continually stoking this "meanness." The willingness and desire to believe outright lies, to validate an incorrect opinion also helps make folks mad, and thus mean.  David Brooks is a tool, but he does make some points. But he is not introspective about how years of basic political dishonestly, and reinforcement again and again of this dishonestly, influences folks "meanness."

I have always lived by the same rule.  A rule that the owner of Texicalli Grille on Oltorf, Danny Young exuded, and put on the wall of the restaurant so many years ago. "Just be Nice."  It's not hard to be nice, it's actually easy.  In fact one thing that I have told waiters, bartenders, nurses, salespeople and on and on.  When you have folks that are being assholes to you, 90+ percent of the time, it has nothing to do with you.  It has something to do with the asshole's, work, wife, dog, son, daughter or whatever. You just happen to be in a downhill position, and these angry people want to hurt somebody. And you are in a position where you don't have to power to fight back.

ThIs mirrors the GOP's political methodology of always attacking people that do not have the ability to fight back.  Blacks, interracial couples, gays, trans and and now the parents of trans kids.  Why does the GOP attack and attack and attack these weaker folks?  Because they NEED to stoke anger, to have a chance at the ballot box.  You NEED somebody to blame for YOUR ANGER,  You simply do not see the same sort of decades long demonization of weaker classes in the Democratic Party.  Because it's not a key component of their political strategy. In contrast you see the stoking of anger nearly continually on the right.  You do hear anger from the left, but it's never continuously aimed at the weak.

Meanness is ALWAYS directed at the weak.  Or those that cannot fight back, like a waiter, nurse or other service oriented job.  In my counsel to folks on dealing with the assholes, I tell them as hard as it is, you need to think past the moment.  That person may be in front of you being an asshole for a certain period of time. But when they leave they are still an asshole, and they live the life of an asshole every day.  And being an asshole is a shitty way to go through life. So simply smile and be glad you are not them when they walk away.

The sad thing is that being nice to others is one of the most uplifting and joy bringing things you can do FOR YOURSELF!  If it doesn't make you feel good to open a door for somebody, to let somebody into traffic, to simply be kind to somebody for no other reason than the kindness itself, then you may fall into the "mean" category.  And to be honest, those poor mean folks are missing out on the little things in life that make life worth living.  A small act of kindness is a wonderful thing, and other human beings notice and appreciate it.  I feel sorry for mean people.  And letting them know that... would only make them madder and meaner.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

It's funny, I didn't put much stock in the title of the article.  It came from my Feedly feed and I think actually had a different title.

But the whole mean thing I think trivializes many of the points made.

And, within the article itself, the use of the term morality, which I think has a somewhat different meaning in philosophical circles than the common connotation of "the difference between right and wrong."  I'm not sure, philosophy is something I have had very little exposure to, unfortunately.

As I have mentioned here and on the mental health thread, "morality" is sometimes attached to the program of AA, which itself hardly ever uses the term, and really rarely dwells on what one might consider topics of right and wrong, as such.

AA itself is a community institution and that is part of its effectiveness.  And one of its chief goals is to turn the alcoholic from an inward-dwelling, self-referential person into someone more empathetic, that realizes their actual place in the world.

Since recovering from alcoholism, I have gained an appreciation for the motto of Jesuit educators, creating "Men for others."  And of course that's a tad misogynistic right there.  So I'll rephrase it to "people for others."

But to me, that's kind of what this is all about.  We lack institutions that instill the value of being a "person for others."  

In the mental health thread, a poster said it was all about well-intentioned but "shitty parenting."  And, I suppose to a certain extent that is true.  But in the past, parents had an assist from external institutions or organizations in making their kids "people for others."

Now, there are various forces aligned to turn children into "people for themselves" and to continue that well into adulthood and to the grave.  And some of the former community institutions, rightly under assault for their flaws, have become institutions of tribalism.  And that's a risk of any of these types of institutions or organizations.

[Captainant 27467]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Since recovering from alcoholism, I have gained an appreciation for the motto of Jesuit educators, creating "Men for others."  And of course that's a tad misogynistic right there.  So I'll rephrase it to "people for others."

But to me, that's kind of what this is all about.  We lack institutions that instill the value of being a "person for others."  

In the mental health thread, a poster said it was all about well-intentioned but "shitty parenting."  And, I suppose to a certain extent that is true.  But in the past, parents had an assist from external institutions or organizations in making their kids "people for others."

Now, there are various forces aligned to turn children into "people for themselves" and to continue that well into adulthood and to the grave.  And some of the former community institutions, rightly under assault for their flaws, have become institutions of tribalism.  And that's a risk of any of these types of institutions or organizations.

I think it's more instructive to look at the dynamics pushing the "meanness". It's greed, selfishness, and lack of empathy. It's treating people like numbers on a page, rather than souls with a life and family. 

It's the trickle down of our uniquely American brand of capitalism where people don't matter worth a shit, and it's all about how much luchre you can rip from other people's hands at any cost.

If they get hurt, they should have protected themselves better or bought insurance! It's not society's job to look out for each other!! That would be SOCIALISM!!(!!!!!!!)

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

I think it's more instructive to look at the dynamics pushing the "meanness". It's greed, selfishness, and lack of empathy. It's treating people like numbers on a page, rather than souls with a life and family. 

It's the trickle down of our uniquely American brand of capitalism where people don't matter worth a shit, and it's all about how much luchre you can rip from other people's hands at any cost.

If they get hurt, they should have protected themselves better or bought insurance! It's not society's job to look out for each other!! That would be SOCIALISM!!(!!!!!!!)

Yeah one of the central things that drives a whole lot of discontent is this mythical rugged individualism that we've been promoting relentlessly all this time.

Take that to its extreme and this is what you get.

Which is why something, I dunno what, needs to instill some more community value in us.  But I guess that would be communism, so I guess we're fucked.

[Captainant 27467]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

But I guess that would be communism, so I guess we're fucked.

Community.....

Commune....

 

COMMUNISM!!!

We've cracked the code! We must destroy community in order for capitalism to take it's true final form, unencumbered by the chains of non shareholders 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Captainant

[Foosters 17734]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:37 AM, HenryJames said:

By David Brooks

https://store.thebaffler.com/products/david-brooks-toilet-paper

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13547]

51 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah one of the central things that drives a whole lot of discontent is this mythical rugged individualism that we've been promoting relentlessly all this time.

Take that to its extreme and this is what you get.

Which is why something, I dunno what, needs to instill some more community value in us.  But I guess that would be communism, so I guess we're fucked.

It's binary thinking and how conservatives since the Reagan Revolution and repeal of the Fairness Doctrine have convinced their base that they need to choose a side between deified capitalism/competition (which dictates someone must lose) and anything that could be construed as demonized socialist/cooperative, when reality and history show the common good is best served by a balance of both. 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's funny, I didn't put much stock in the title of the article.  It came from my Feedly feed and I think actually had a different title.

But the whole mean thing I think trivializes many of the points made.

And, within the article itself, the use of the term morality, which I think has a somewhat different meaning in philosophical circles than the common connotation of "the difference between right and wrong."  I'm not sure, philosophy is something I have had very little exposure to, unfortunately.

As I have mentioned here and on the mental health thread, "morality" is sometimes attached to the program of AA, which itself hardly ever uses the term, and really rarely dwells on what one might consider topics of right and wrong, as such.

AA itself is a community institution and that is part of its effectiveness.  And one of its chief goals is to turn the alcoholic from an inward-dwelling, self-referential person into someone more empathetic, that realizes their actual place in the world.

Since recovering from alcoholism, I have gained an appreciation for the motto of Jesuit educators, creating "Men for others."  And of course that's a tad misogynistic right there.  So I'll rephrase it to "people for others."

But to me, that's kind of what this is all about.  We lack institutions that instill the value of being a "person for others."  

In the mental health thread, a poster said it was all about well-intentioned but "shitty parenting."  And, I suppose to a certain extent that is true.  But in the past, parents had an assist from external institutions or organizations in making their kids "people for others."

Now, there are various forces aligned to turn children into "people for themselves" and to continue that well into adulthood and to the grave.  And some of the former community institutions, rightly under assault for their flaws, have become institutions of tribalism.  And that's a risk of any of these types of institutions or organizations.

 

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

I think it's more instructive to look at the dynamics pushing the "meanness". It's greed, selfishness, and lack of empathy. It's treating people like numbers on a page, rather than souls with a life and family. 

It's the trickle down of our uniquely American brand of capitalism where people don't matter worth a shit, and it's all about how much luchre you can rip from other people's hands at any cost.

If they get hurt, they should have protected themselves better or bought insurance! It's not society's job to look out for each other!! That would be SOCIALISM!!(!!!!!!!)

 

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah one of the central things that drives a whole lot of discontent is this mythical rugged individualism that we've been promoting relentlessly all this time.

Take that to its extreme and this is what you get.

Which is why something, I dunno what, needs to instill some more community value in us.  But I guess that would be communism, so I guess we're fucked.

One of my favorite quotes from FDR is in Ken Burns' National Parks documentary when he is talking about the CCC:  We are definitely in an era of building today, the best kind of building, the building of great public projects for the benefit of the public and with the definite objective of building human happiness at the same time.

I can't fathom a president, even a Democratic one, saying something like that today.

There was a different attitude back then.  The Depression made people realize how fragile it all is.  

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:04 AM, horn4life said:

The Simple Truth is the Republican party is a minority party, and the only way to have a chance at winning, is anger.  And anger must be continually stoked. Brooks fails to look at how much his party is responsible for continually stoking this "meanness." The willingness and desire to believe outright lies, to validate an incorrect opinion also helps make folks mad, and thus mean.  David Brooks is a tool, but he does make some points. But he is not introspective about how years of basic political dishonestly, and reinforcement again and again of this dishonestly, influences folks "meanness."

I have always lived by the same rule.  A rule that the owner of Texicalli Grille on Oltorf, Danny Young exuded, and put on the wall of the restaurant so many years ago. "Just be Nice."  It's not hard to be nice, it's actually easy.  In fact one thing that I have told waiters, bartenders, nurses, salespeople and on and on.  When you have folks that are being assholes to you, 90+ percent of the time, it has nothing to do with you.  It has something to do with the asshole's, work, wife, dog, son, daughter or whatever. You just happen to be in a downhill position, and these angry people want to hurt somebody. And you are in a position where you don't have to power to fight back.

ThIs mirrors the GOP's political methodology of always attacking people that do not have the ability to fight back.  Blacks, interracial couples, gays, trans and and now the parents of trans kids.  Why does the GOP attack and attack and attack these weaker folks?  Because they NEED to stoke anger, to have a chance at the ballot box.  You NEED somebody to blame for YOUR ANGER,  You simply do not see the same sort of decades long demonization of weaker classes in the Democratic Party.  Because it's not a key component of their political strategy. In contrast you see the stoking of anger nearly continually on the right.  You do hear anger from the left, but it's never continuously aimed at the weak.

Meanness is ALWAYS directed at the weak.  Or those that cannot fight back, like a waiter, nurse or other service oriented job.  In my counsel to folks on dealing with the assholes, I tell them as hard as it is, you need to think past the moment.  That person may be in front of you being an asshole for a certain period of time. But when they leave they are still an asshole, and they live the life of an asshole every day.  And being an asshole is a shitty way to go through life. So simply smile and be glad you are not them when they walk away.

The sad thing is that being nice to others is one of the most uplifting and joy bringing things you can do FOR YOURSELF!  If it doesn't make you feel good to open a door for somebody, to let somebody into traffic, to simply be kind to somebody for no other reason than the kindness itself, then you may fall into the "mean" category.  And to be honest, those poor mean folks are missing out on the little things in life that make life worth living.  A small act of kindness is a wonderful thing, and other human beings notice and appreciate it.  I feel sorry for mean people.  And letting them know that... would only make them madder and meaner.

Great post.

“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”

Kurt Vonnegut

[Hank Kingsley 20709]

Great thread.

I just moved the other day. AT&T guy came to hook up the internet. He saw some bourbon bottles i was taking out of boxes. Said he was from Guatemala and even though he doesn't really drink, that they are proud of the rum they make there. We small talked for about 5-10 minutes while he efficiently installed everything. Since it's hotter than the fucking sun, I offered him a can of Waterloo before he headed out. 

As he was leaving, he said he wished more customers were like me and seemed so appreciative to the point of being emotional. To me, it was just a completely normal human interaction. What have we done? 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Great thread.

I just moved the other day. AT&T guy came to hook up the internet. He saw some bourbon bottles i was taking out of boxes. Said he was from Guatemala and even though he doesn't really drink, that they are proud of the rum they make there. We small talked for about 5-10 minutes while he efficiently installed everything. Since it's hotter than the fucking sun, I offered him a can of Waterloo before he headed out. 

As he was leaving, he said he wished more customers were like me and seemed so appreciative to the point of being emotional. To me, it was just a completely normal human interaction. What have we done? 

I had a plumber come out to service my tankless water heater yesterday morning.  He was late and I was a little miffed at first, but then he said he had been in an attic for 10 hours the day before and had gotten heat exhaustion.  Said he was throwing up all morning.  I told him to get home after he did my tank (he had already started at that point) and brought him an electrolyte packet.  We talked for a half hour about where he was from (Washington state) and hiking and the Pacific Crest Trail.

I hope it brightened his day a bit.  We all need to remember that the smallest gestures can make a difference to people and they pay it forward, consciously or not.

[Brisketexan 104628]

3 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Great thread.

I just moved the other day. AT&T guy came to hook up the internet. He saw some bourbon bottles i was taking out of boxes. Said he was from Guatemala and even though he doesn't really drink, that they are proud of the rum they make there. We small talked for about 5-10 minutes while he efficiently installed everything. Since it's hotter than the fucking sun, I offered him a can of Waterloo before he headed out. 

As he was leaving, he said he wished more customers were like me and seemed so appreciative to the point of being emotional. To me, it was just a completely normal human interaction. What have we done? 

What have we done?  We have create a secular societal religion that is based on the utterly false, counter-productive foundational beliefs that 1) the individual is god, and 2) kindness and empathy for others are a betrayal of that god.

Seriously.  It's far beyond "kindness and empathy and looking out for the commonwealth" being not valued.  They are actively derided as NEGATIVE qualities, as weaknesses, as betrayals of our national character and they're downright anti-American.

It's such a massive perversion of our character (well, okay, of the GOOD part of our character, that has helped us achieve the "greatness" they claim to long for), and it's the exact OPPOSITE of the things that so easily signpost our greatness. 

It's a characteristic that defined us at our birth as a nation:

Quote

Political theorist and sociologist Alexis de Tocqueville traveled throughout the United States seeking to discover what made democracy work here when it had failed in other places (most notably his native France). One of Tocqueville’s key observations in his famous Democracy in America was that Americans exhibited remarkably robust institutions and instincts for civil society—strong neighborhoods, communities, churches, clubs, etc.—and that this strength provided vital support for the health of the democratic polity.

It defined us at maybe our "greatest moments by our 'greatest generation'" -- fighting and winning WWII.  From the homefront to the battlefield, people sacrificed for the common good.

It defined us at the achievement we love to call back to rhetorically: there are two kinds of countries: countries that have landed on the moon, and every country but the USA.  Our moon shot was a testament to group effort, to the team being much greater than the individual.  Armstrong wouldn't have put a foot on the moon without a company of steely-eyed missile men (and women) behind him.

Now....such common effort and common good.....are EVIL.  Those qualities are vilified and demonized.  What do we worship?  "I alone can fix this."  "Nobody knows more about X than me!"  Loyalty to the single individual godhead (the orange one) is not only valued MORE than loyalty to the constitution and Republic, and the collective nation that lives under them, it must be valued INSTEAD of those things.

Be selfish.  Be cruel.  Show contempt for others.  That's how you show you're a real alpha, which is the only thing that matters.  America is a collection of 350 million people who have been told and shown repeatedly that the only way to show their success is by shitting on others.

Decency isn't just dead.  It was taken out back, double-tapped on purpose, and left to rot.

[Brisketexan 104628]

8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I had a plumber come out to service my tankless water heater yesterday morning.  He was late and I was a little miffed at first, but then he said he had been in an attic for 10 hours the day before and had gotten heat exhaustion.  Said he was throwing up all morning.  I told him to get home after he did my tank (he had already started at that point) and brought him an electrolyte packet.  We talked for a half hour about where he was from (Washington state) and hiking and the Pacific Crest Trail.

I hope it brightened his day a bit.  We all need to remember that the smallest gestures can make a difference to people and they pay it forward, consciously or not.

Also, read up on the topic of "weak ties."  They are fundamental and important to both a functioning society and our happiness and well-being as human beings.  And we HATE them now.  Everyone not of your immediate tribe is looked up on as an enemy or adversary until proven otherwise.  While we say "well, yeah, we're a tribal speciies, that's natural," it's really not.

We are also a collaborative, communal species.  Putting that sort of basic humane treatment out there is contagious, and benefits us all.  We desperately need more of it.  

['stache 21777]

The right uses people who are just living their lives as political footballs, vilifying them as evil or harmful to them, when all they're doing is living. It worked. That's how America Got Mean. Fuck anyone who tries to "both sides" that bullshit. Gay people have never tried to pass laws forcing people to be gay. Religious people pass laws constantly to make people practice their religion. It's not the fucking same. 

[David Dennison 18661]

18 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The right uses people who are just living their lives as political footballs, vilifying them as evil or harmful to them, when all they're doing is living. It worked. That's how America Got Mean. Fuck anyone who tries to "both sides" that bullshit. Gay people have never tried to pass laws forcing people to be gay. Religious people pass laws constantly to make people practice their religion. It's not the fucking same. 

All because the rich want lower taxes.

[Sawbonz 27436]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:41 AM, Chuckie Finster said:

This topic reminds me of Gov. Pritzker's commencement speech at Northwestern this year.  I definitely think the decreasing prestige of intelligence and the increasing presence of "meanness" are related.

 

Damn that dude is fat

[Don Johnson 4745]

21 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Damn that dude is fat

But he knows Dick Bigger, Jr.  And just imagine the street cred Dick Bigger, Sr. has.

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Don Johnson

[Aqua Buddha 14522]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:20 PM, Brisketexan said:

I don't want to read the piece.  I know the truth behind it, reading it again will just make me depressed.

And quoting the post above....it's across the board, it permeates our entire culture.  Healthcare workers -- getting shit on.  We have a good friend who is senior in a brewpub chain, she occasionally has to work the floor....and hates it.  She related that "it used to be that maybe 5% of your customers were outright mean/rude....now it's over half.  It's abusive and exhausting."  And as for the legal profession, a shitload of lawyers I know are talking about the undeniable truth: people have gotten meaner, more unhinged, and more unreasonable.  Had that conversation with a very seasoned mediator recently, observing that more and more cases aren't settling, because people just can't get to a reasonable compromise, and he agreed.

We are broken, top to bottom.  And we're doubling down on worshipping our worst tendencies as if they were our BEST qualities.

America is the land of the selfish "fuck you," with zero regard for anyone else.

If you read into the Target earning this week, they call out the increased security they had to bring on because people were threatening their employees over the Pride merch.  Seriously, threatening someone that works at a store because a shirt has a rainbow or some such....?

[Biff Tannen 45499]

1 hour ago, Don Johnson said:

But he knows Dick Bigger, Jr.  And just imagine the street cred Dick Bigger, Sr. has.

 

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

36 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The right uses people who are just living their lives as political footballs, vilifying them as evil or harmful to them, when all they're doing is living. It worked. That's how America Got Mean. Fuck anyone who tries to "both sides" that bullshit. Gay people have never tried to pass laws forcing people to be gay. Religious people pass laws constantly to make people practice their religion. It's not the fucking same. 

"We vs. me" is such a simple framing of the two political parties, it's malpractice that the Democratic party has not used it.

[linux 1659]

I definitely encountered meaness on both sides particularly around 2012-2016, but the left calmed the fuck down and the far right doubled down. the Jan 6 people wanted to hang Pence, the #2 man in their party, they probably would have if they had a chance.

[Brisketexan 104628]

11 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

"We vs. me" is such a simple framing of the two political parties, it's malpractice that the Democratic party has not used it.

It's the literal first word in our founding document.  The GQP wants to re-write it as "Me the people."  Fuck them.  I'll stand up for the constitution as written.

[linux 1659]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

It's the literal first word in our founding document.  The GQP wants to re-write it as "Me the people."  Fuck them.  I'll stand up for the constitution as written.

I know a MAGA clown that "supports" the consitution daily, but he has never read it like 0, I twist the knife so many times you would think he would take the 30 mins just to get it over with, but no.
 

[nbmishoid 941]

57 minutes ago, linux said:

I definitely encountered meaness on both sides particularly around 2012-2016, but the left calmed the fuck down and the far right doubled down. the Jan 6 people wanted to hang Pence, the #2 man in their party, they probably would have if they had a chance.

100% probable.  I cannot imagine an equivalent event of the left.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20345]

A short video on why Waffle Houses got so late-night violent.

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/previews/Lz1ru061

 

[Gatorubet 30117]

On 8/17/2023 at 6:27 AM, TwiceHorn said:

It's funny, I didn't put much stock in the title of the article.  It came from my Feedly feed and I think actually had a different title.

But the whole mean thing I think trivializes many of the points made.

And, within the article itself, the use of the term morality, which I think has a somewhat different meaning in philosophical circles than the common connotation of "the difference between right and wrong."  I'm not sure, philosophy is something I have had very little exposure to, unfortunately.

Immanuel Kant's Lectures on Ethics and On a Supposed Right to Lie from Altruistic Motives: “[W]ithout truth[,] social intercourse and conversation become valueless. . . . [A] lie always harms another; if not some particular man, still it harms mankind generally.”

There are a lot of nice sayings in this world. “A penny saved is a penny earned” is a great one. So is “You can’t take it with you.”  Both are right and both are wrong, depending in the situation. It is for good people to figure out how to apply these things, philosophy aside. 

[UpperWestside 6136]

The process to how we arrived at this point is an interesting one to study. If anyone believes that this is something that just transpired history shows that we arrived here through a variety of factors going back decades. There is no single thing that has us where we are.

I will say that technological advances have contributed greatly, but every single passing generation will tell you how much more friendly we used to be as a society. Good old days syndrome is the best way to say it. 

[tbone_ 14025]

I really wish this wasn't posted to Cloak Room but it is what it is. The pandemic changed everything for me. I work in health care and patients are more mean today than they've ever been. I made the grave mistake of buying into the whole "health care hero" bullshit during the pandemic. When the vaccine came out there were many of us that thought we'd get viewed as heroes and maybe the poor treatment we received pre-March 2020 would reverse. It didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened. The vaccine turned political and people thought we were killing them. Now I find myself in a position where I want to move on from my current gig. It's a weird feeling man. I've never had "you're making a mistake" and "you need to do this because you've waited and waited and things aren't getting better" collide in my life the way they are now. 

I make it a point to tell the health care workers I deal with that I appreciate what they do. Because I do. Fucked up world they work in and I’m glad they do what they do. And I try to let them know.

[Satchel 6908]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:50 AM, Brisketexan said:

What have we done?  We have create a secular societal religion that is based on the utterly false, counter-productive foundational beliefs that 1) the individual is god, and 2) kindness and empathy for others are a betrayal of that god.

Seriously.  It's far beyond "kindness and empathy and looking out for the commonwealth" being not valued.  They are actively derided as NEGATIVE qualities, as weaknesses, as betrayals of our national character and they're downright anti-American.

It's such a massive perversion of our character (well, okay, of the GOOD part of our character, that has helped us achieve the "greatness" they claim to long for), and it's the exact OPPOSITE of the things that so easily signpost our greatness. 

It's a characteristic that defined us at our birth as a nation:

It defined us at maybe our "greatest moments by our 'greatest generation'" -- fighting and winning WWII.  From the homefront to the battlefield, people sacrificed for the common good.

It defined us at the achievement we love to call back to rhetorically: there are two kinds of countries: countries that have landed on the moon, and every country but the USA.  Our moon shot was a testament to group effort, to the team being much greater than the individual.  Armstrong wouldn't have put a foot on the moon without a company of steely-eyed missile men (and women) behind him.

Now....such common effort and common good.....are EVIL.  Those qualities are vilified and demonized.  What do we worship?  "I alone can fix this."  "Nobody knows more about X than me!"  Loyalty to the single individual godhead (the orange one) is not only valued MORE than loyalty to the constitution and Republic, and the collective nation that lives under them, it must be valued INSTEAD of those things.

Be selfish.  Be cruel.  Show contempt for others.  That's how you show you're a real alpha, which is the only thing that matters.  America is a collection of 350 million people who have been told and shown repeatedly that the only way to show their success is by shitting on others.

Decency isn't just dead.  It was taken out back, double-tapped on purpose, and left to rot.

This prayer of confession use to be in the UMC hymnal. I always felt convicted when reciting it. We no longer use the hymnal or recite the prayer:

Sometimes, Lord, we have been overzealous in our pursuit of purity and truth. We have placed law over love. We've considered harshness to be a virtue and patience to be a fault.We have been quick to condemn and slow to forgive. We have been eager to find fault and have been slow to express sympathy. When the mighty have fallen, we are delighted instead of grieved.

Remove from us, Lord, any taint of self-righteousness and give is the loving concern which seeks the healing of your church and the unity of your people.

[atomheartbevo 89449]

Here you go @Brisketexan and everybody else in this thread.

 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

Here you go @Brisketexan and everybody else in this thread.

 

tl;dw

cliffs notes?

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

tl;dw

cliffs notes?

Buy green tips. 

[Brisketexan 104628]

Here you go [mention=593]Brisketexan[/mention] and everybody else in this thread.
 

Yeah…the common thread of civil war of “almost nobody saw it coming” is maddening to me. We’ve been hurtling towards it at increasing speed for 10-15 years now. And it’s been as plain as fucking day. The only explanation I can come up with for why so many people don’t see it is that they don’t WANT to see it. Hell, I don’t want to see it either. But there it is.
Her optimism is not merited. This ends in blood. We have to wait for the morons to really start their killing, and then we need to take them out. We’re already IN our civil war. When the body count gets high enough, maybe we’ll fight back the way we should.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:04 AM, Biff Tannen said:

 

 

One of my favorite quotes from FDR is in Ken Burns' National Parks documentary when he is talking about the CCC:  We are definitely in an era of building today, the best kind of building, the building of great public projects for the benefit of the public and with the definite objective of building human happiness at the same time.

I can't fathom a president, even a Democratic one, saying something like that today.

There was a different attitude back then.  The Depression made people realize how fragile it all is.  

 

i'm not sure the attitude was all that different, because there was a groundswell of shit not unlike what we have now, but perhaps actually a bit more principled and less dangerous and idiotic.

But love or hate FDR, the man was a leader.

[Hawndoh 2382]

To add to the anecdotal evidence.

I'm in year 17 of teaching middle school. It is almost impossible to explain all the various ways things have changed since the start of my career.

When I began, nobody had smart phones, there was no social media, etc. There were mean kids back then of course, but nowhere near like today. I'd echo the sentiment shared earlier by the healthcare worker and the story about the bar owner earlier in the thread. The <5% mean has skyrocketed.

Parents are openly hostile towards the teachers and staff. Parents and some students are more openly racist than ever. Kids don't want to learn something in school if they can't directly see how it will make them money. When my career started, teachers would get stupid amounts of chocolate and crap at Christmas or whatever, now out of 150 students I might see 5 or 6 cards.

It isn't just one source of this stuff either. It's a combination of radicalization through social media, kids with unrestricted and unmonitored internet access, kids seeing their parents get radicalized politically. Another big part is that many families feel they should be better off than they actually are. It's a good school district in what was historically a fairly wealthy suburb, but demographics and a shrinking middle class have a lot of people questioning if all the sacrifices they made to be here were worth it. 

I don't know answers to any of it. I know schools are attempting to teach kids how to be nice to each other, but it is such an uphill battle. They all talk in real life like they're on reddit, and they would much rather own someone and shit post than actually make a friend.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Hawndoh

[BamaATL 16592]

On 8/17/2023 at 7:36 AM, Hank Kingsley said:

Great thread.

I just moved the other day. AT&T guy came to hook up the internet. He saw some bourbon bottles i was taking out of boxes. Said he was from Guatemala and even though he doesn't really drink, that they are proud of the rum they make there. We small talked for about 5-10 minutes while he efficiently installed everything. Since it's hotter than the fucking sun, I offered him a can of Waterloo before he headed out. 

As he was leaving, he said he wished more customers were like me and seemed so appreciative to the point of being emotional. To me, it was just a completely normal human interaction. What have we done? 

I'm just gonna point out that anyone working for AT&T on the customer side is a masochist.  

Well, that, and you are all assholes.  There, I feel vindicated and have the self gratification of belittling all of you.  I feel better about myself, despite my own shortcomings.  

[washparkhorn 9935]

David Brooks prefers a nation where the mee-maws don’t have to explain their actions in high school. 

[Mole 4320]

On 8/19/2023 at 12:28 AM, Satchel said:

We no longer use the hymnal

It seems trivial on the surface in light of the direct and tangible horribleness that’s celebrated in the culture, but we largely no longer sing or make music together. So many churches have drifted away from congregational singing to Christian U2 and laser lights and the ever growing non-church population isn’t getting up on Sunday mornings for a sing-along either.

The lack of communal music-making is both a direct reflection of the decay and a cause.

Texans get a couple of Saturdays a year for the Eyes and I guess baseball fans get a minute or two of Take Me Out to the Ballgame, but that’s really not enough. The unrepentant band and choir nerds are still playing and singing in community groups, but there aren’t enough of them to change the culture. Concert-goers get to sing along with Taylor Swift or whatever, but even that is done under the banner of an “audience” consuming an event.

I’ve long thought that a nationwide weekly sing-along movement would be transformative to our culture. It doesn’t matter if the songs are good or meaningful — mmm Bop would make a fine start as any — as long as we do it together. Just give me 30-60 minutes a week of the Mr. Rogers songbook and watch that meanness drift away.

Working together to make a thing that is gone as soon as it’s made, that you can’t sell or monetize because it’s simply something we did together is antithetical to our culture.

[Brisketexan 104628]

It seems trivial on the surface in light of the direct and tangible horribleness that’s celebrated in the culture, but we largely no longer sing or make music together. So many churches have drifted away from congregational singing to Christian U2 and laser lights and the ever growing non-church population isn’t getting up on Sunday mornings for a sing-along either.
The lack of communal music-making is both a direct reflection of the decay and a cause.
Texans get a couple of Saturdays a year for the Eyes and I guess baseball fans get a minute or two of Take Me Out to the Ballgame, but that’s really not enough. The unrepentant band and choir nerds are still playing and singing in community groups, but there aren’t enough of them to change the culture. Concert-goers get to sing along with Taylor Swift or whatever, but even that is done under the banner of an “audience” consuming an event.
I’ve long thought that a nationwide weekly sing-along movement would be transformative to our culture. It doesn’t matter if the songs are good or meaningful — mmm Bop would make a fine start as any — as long as we do it together. Just give me 30-60 minutes a week of the Mr. Rogers songbook and watch that meanness drift away.
Working together to make a thing that is gone as soon as it’s made, that you can’t sell or monetize because it’s simply something we did together is antithetical to our culture.

“We.”
“Together.”
Two concepts that aren’t just lost, but are openly despised and characterized as “the enemy,” the worst things imaginable.
“Me.”
“Alone.”
Those are our gods now. Sing whatever you want. But it should contain lyrics that equate to “fuck you,” or else be an apostate.

[Satchel 6908]

12 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

David Brooks prefers a nation where the mee-maws don’t have to explain their actions in high school. 

David Brooks is nowhere the problem that the ghost of Orval Faubas is:

https://thegrio.com/2023/08/21/arkansas-governor-defends-limits-on-ap-black-history-course/

Edited August 22, 2023 by Satchel

[TwiceHorn 31283]

On 8/18/2023 at 11:28 PM, Satchel said:

This prayer of confession use to be in the UMC hymnal. I always felt convicted when reciting it. We no longer use the hymnal or recite the prayer:

Sometimes, Lord, we have been overzealous in our pursuit of purity and truth. We have placed law over love. We've considered harshness to be a virtue and patience to be a fault.We have been quick to condemn and slow to forgive. We have been eager to find fault and have been slow to express sympathy. When the mighty have fallen, we are delighted instead of grieved.

Remove from us, Lord, any taint of self-righteousness and give is the loving concern which seeks the healing of your church and the unity of your people.

Is this a "contemporary service"?  My church has three types of services, a small, early one in the chapel that is most traditional, a large twice on Sundays service in the main sanctuary that is I understand pretty traditional, stiil, and then rock church.

We go to the small early one and it's about the same as it ever was, hymn and creed wise.  We didn't use the prayer of confession all that much.  I haven't been to the other two in a very long time.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

So, I am unfamilar with Brooks beyond relatively recent writing in The Atlantic.

According to some of you, he was at one time the Grand Dragon?

[Satchel 6908]

33 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Is this a "contemporary service"?  My church has three types of services, a small, early one in the chapel that is most traditional, a large twice on Sundays service in the main sanctuary that is I understand pretty traditional, stiil, and then rock church.

We go to the small early one and it's about the same as it ever was, hymn and creed wise.  We didn't use the prayer of confession all that much.  I haven't been to the other two in a very long time.

Since our sanctuary is undergoing significant renovations, we have not returned to the multiple services format. The programming for the one service we have is heavily programmed to appeal to young people. It’s disorienting to the majority of boomers in attendance, but it’s where we are. 

[cactusflinthead 27594]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

So, I am unfamilar with Brooks beyond relatively recent writing in The Atlantic.

According to some of you, he was at one time the Grand Dragon?

In the search query by way of a statement.

"David Brooks sucks"

This one was well down the list.

And Brooks is the king of no-context. In Brooks’ fantasy world, there is no economic power. There is no history. All that matters are performative culture displays. Because Brooks’ life is free from oppression, he believes oppression does not exist. In those rare moments when it does exist, it is practiced by liberal agitators and crafty postmodern academics.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/david-brooks/david-brooks-is-americas-most-clueless-pundit

 

But, there's this from Magary.

way back in 2017

You know what? Fuck your worrisome. You’ll pardon me if I find the fact that Donald Trump is in charge far more worrisome than whether or not his detractors rightfully assume he’s into some bad shit. Brooks has the whole Tasteful Objection verbiage down. Things are worrisome, or troubling, or raise serious questions, or give him pause. Meanwhile, the world is FUCKED! Freaking out is a completely normal and logical response to Donald Trump being President and Trump’s behavior in office. What is NOT logical is being the contrarian millionaire who steps back and folds his arms and points at the fire alarm and declares, “Now THAT might be the real problem here."

 

https://www.gq.com/story/david-brooks-trump-whitewater

That's two. There's so much more.