Is Punk Dead?

[Biff Tannen 45712]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:03 PM, G650 said:

This is the problem, what you wrote is a gross oversimplification, which I'm not bagging on you for, I'm prone to it juat like any other human, it's what we do. But there was no unified influence on the Seattle bands, you can't just say they were influenced by <insert thing>. It didn't work that way. Take the big three, Soundgarden, Nirvana and Pearl Jam. These were three vastly different bands. And I mean way different. As hateful as it sounds, Creed and Pearl Jam had waaay more in common than PJ and Nirvana or Soundgarden. Pearl Jam was not a punk derived band whatsoever. Jeff Ament has as much hardcore cred as any dude alive, enough to carry the whole band, but that wasn't their jive. They were a 70s rock band through and through, go listen to Mother Love Bone, they were straight glam at that point. Mike McCready was a reformed metal head. The drummers don't even count because they changed them like underwear.  Contrast that with Nirvana, which was very much post hardcore. All the dudes in the band were punk rockers. Soundgarden was off in left field, they had the most unique thing going.

 

If you want to draw a line from Pearl Jam to Creed, go back to Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin. 

 

As an aside, I have a lot of good books I could recommend on the Seattle scene going way back. It's vastly more complicated than most of the popular recollection, you really have to reach back to the Sonics then get into the U Men, and then Green River and that era to see how it evolved. It was a lot less homogeneous than is perceived now.

This is also why Rick Beato is a raging moronic douche who has no fucking idea what he is talking about

Just gonna leave AIC out of that completely eh?

 

On 8/26/2023 at 4:30 PM, G650 said:

 Kurt was a mega fan of 70s pop..

 

As is Dave

[G650 14273]

24 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Just gonna leave AIC out of that completely eh?

Out of this thread? Absolutely.

 

My opinion is Alice in Chains gets unfairly maligned. The indie crowd always gets all butthurt over them. But the absolute fact is they were the first band to break Seattle (Queensryche and Heart didn't come out of that scene). When Facelift hit it was a pretty mega thing. I'm actually a big fan.

 

They weren't punk rock or alternative or whatever at all though, those guys were straight grits. Great band though.

[Biff Tannen 45712]

40 minutes ago, G650 said:

Out of this thread? Absolutely.

 

My opinion is Alice in Chains gets unfairly maligned. The indie crowd always gets all butthurt over them. But the absolute fact is they were the first band to break Seattle (Queensryche and Heart didn't come out of that scene). When Facelift hit it was a pretty mega thing. I'm actually a big fan.

 

They weren't punk rock or alternative or whatever at all though, those guys were straight grits. Great band though.

For sure, just wanted to give you shit for not mentioning them in the big Seattle bands.

They were the most metal of any of them.  Closer to Soundgarden in that regard.  And then every other album was acoustic.

They just rock.

[irishtexan 11522]

I've always hated this conversation. But I get it. The problem with the argument is that punk rock has too many self-appointed gatekeepers arguing who and what is and is not "punk." That's why Jawbreaker's Boxcar resonates with so many people:

"You're not punk and I'm telling everyone."
Save your breath, I never was one
You don't know what I'm all about
Like killing cops and reading Kerouac

My enemies are all too familiar
They're the ones who used to call me friend
I'm coloring outside your guidelines
I was passing out when you were passing out your rules
One, two, three, four
Who's punk? What's the score?

Regardless, for the premise of this discussion, I'd argue that you're being too specific in asking if punk's dead. To me, a more important discussion is "is rock music dead?" And the data says it's totally fucking dead.

I can't name a single new rock and roll band formed in the last 10 years to hit it big. The last rock band to hit number one on the billboard hot 100 was fucking Creed in 2001 - twenty two years ago. The last rock band to have the number 1 album in the country was AC/DC in 2020. A rock album by dudes in their 70s. 

So yeah. It's not that punk is dead. It's that the entire rock genre is dead.

[Celery Man 20996]

2 hours ago, irishtexan said:

I've always hated this conversation. But I get it. The problem with the argument is that punk rock has too many self-appointed gatekeepers arguing who and what is and is not "punk." That's why Jawbreaker's Boxcar resonates with so many people:

"You're not punk and I'm telling everyone."
Save your breath, I never was one
You don't know what I'm all about
Like killing cops and reading Kerouac

My enemies are all too familiar
They're the ones who used to call me friend
I'm coloring outside your guidelines
I was passing out when you were passing out your rules
One, two, three, four
Who's punk? What's the score?

Regardless, for the premise of this discussion, I'd argue that you're being too specific in asking if punk's dead. To me, a more important discussion is "is rock music dead?" And the data says it's totally fucking dead.

I can't name a single new rock and roll band formed in the last 10 years to hit it big. The last rock band to hit number one on the billboard hot 100 was fucking Creed in 2001 - twenty two years ago. The last rock band to have the number 1 album in the country was AC/DC in 2020. A rock album by dudes in their 70s. 

So yeah. It's not that punk is dead. It's that the entire rock genre is dead.

Not The Killers or Kings of Leon?

[irishtexan 11522]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

Not The Killers or Kings of Leon?

No. But I also recognize I'm holding rock music to a potentially too-high standard by evaluating rock success on number 1 singles or albums. But still, the bands you cite bring up a good point. Both of those bands are more than 22 years old at this point. I'm asking, is there a band that's playing rock music, that was formed in the last 10 years and that isn't comprised of dudes in their late 30s and 40s that has hit it big? I certainly can't think of one. I can think of pop singers, rap artists, country singers, etc. 

I feel like we're in a spot similar to what happened right before grunge/alternative broke. Except that I don't feel like there are independent rock artists that are creating their own music who are on the verge of breaking through. Honestly, Olivia Rodrigo was the closest thing that I can think of to a Nirvana-esque breakthrough. Because her lyrics are refreshingly earnest and reflective of what a "younger" generation is feeling. I just don't think there will ever be another rock and roll band to capture, synthesize, and reflect the emotional complexity of what it feels like to "grow up".

Rock music is dead.

Except for niche groups who still want to make awesome music. Like @jimmyjazz's daughter's band. Who are, definitively, absolutely, punk as fuck.

Well fucking done, dad. 

 

[G650 14273]

5 hours ago, irishtexan said:

No. But I also recognize I'm holding rock music to a potentially too-high standard by evaluating rock success on number 1 singles or albums. But still, the bands you cite bring up a good point. Both of those bands are more than 22 years old at this point. I'm asking, is there a band that's playing rock music, that was formed in the last 10 years and that isn't comprised of dudes in their late 30s and 40s that has hit it big? I certainly can't think of one. I can think of pop singers, rap artists, country singers, etc. 

I feel like we're in a spot similar to what happened right before grunge/alternative broke. Except that I don't feel like there are independent rock artists that are creating their own music who are on the verge of breaking through. Honestly, Olivia Rodrigo was the closest thing that I can think of to a Nirvana-esque breakthrough. Because her lyrics are refreshingly earnest and reflective of what a "younger" generation is feeling. I just don't think there will ever be another rock and roll band to capture, synthesize, and reflect the emotional complexity of what it feels like to "grow up".

Rock music is dead.

Except for niche groups who still want to make awesome music. Like @jimmyjazz's daughter's band. Who are, definitively, absolutely, punk as fuck.

Well fucking done, dad. 

 

Your criteria seems antithetical to the subject of the thread

[locodos 5390]

10 hours ago, irishtexan said:

The last rock band to hit number one on the billboard hot 100 was fucking Creed...

 

6 hours ago, irishtexan said:

No. But I also recognize I'm holding rock music to a potentially too-high standard

Ummmm you're what now?

 

[Al_4_ISU 12477]

I fucking love Nirvana, but it's really obvious with the passage of time that Kurt Cobain was absolutely one of those douchey self-important gatekeeper twats, and just a generally shitty person.  I listened to "Come As You Are" this spring on audiobook, and it really hammered that point home.  50 year old Kurt Cobain would have been absolutely nauseating.  It's fucking remarkable that Frances Bean is as well adjusted as she is.

11 year old Al thought he was the coolest guy that ever lived, too.

[jimmyjazz 46091]

I suppose I can't think of any newer mainstream chart-toppers in the rock realm, but the indie world has all kinds of young rock-adjacent artists, like Courtney Barnett and the afore-mentioned Royal Blood.  I doubt either has had a #1 hit, though.

[Al_4_ISU 12477]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I suppose I can't think of any newer mainstream chart-toppers in the rock realm, but the indie world has all kinds of young rock-adjacent artists, like Courtney Barnett and the afore-mentioned Royal Blood.  I doubt either has had a #1 hit, though.

Yeah, there's plenty of kickass snot-nosed rock music still being made.

But it's a niche product rather than a cultural force.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Al_4_ISU

[G650 14273]

Just now, Al_4_ISU said:

Yeah, there's plenty of kickass snot-nosed rock music still being made.

But it's a niche product rather than a cultural force.

 

Other than very brief flashes, when was it any different? Go look at the Billboard 100 for say 1982 or 1991. Depressing stuff, but it's illuminating. There's certainly not any Black Flag on there.

[Al_4_ISU 12477]

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Other than very brief flashes, when was it any different? Go look at the Billboard 100 for say 1982 or 1991. Depressing stuff, but it's illuminating. There's certainly not any Black Flag on there.

In punk's case, that's accurate.

But from the late 50's until the early 00's, rock music of some kind was a dominant cultural thing, and you had plenty of flashes of punk/punk inspired acts seeing mainstream success a long the way.  It seems to me that has passed, and rock will continue to exist in much the same way jazz does.  Probably more popular as long as anyone in this thread is alive, but quite clearly to the side of whatever "matters".  If anything "matters" in this era of proliferated artistic mediums.

Honestly, the idea of any kind of cultural homogeneity as it pertains to art is probably something from a bygone era. 

[G650 14273]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

In punk's case, that's accurate.

 

Well, I mean we are in the is punk dead thread so.

 

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Honestly, the idea of any kind of cultural homogeneity as it pertains to art is probably something from a bygone era. 

 

Yeah I agree completely. The mediums for disseminating art are so fractured there really can't be any monoculture at present. I would not say it's an impossibility to return at some point in the future, though probably not in any of our lifetimes.

[jimmyjazz 46091]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

though probably not in any of our lifetimes.

Thanks for the pick-me-up.

[ajax 2620]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

It seems to me that has passed, and rock will continue to exist in much the same way jazz does. 

It'll come back. The current rap music is getting very stale.

And rock bands still can fill large venues to massive arenas - newer bands, bands that never get mentioned here. What jazz act can do that?

Rock has plenty of young fans. They just listen to different bands. Jazz only has old fans, aside from a few kids who get into it for some reason.

 

[locodos 5390]

17 hours ago, G650 said:

They weren't punk rock or alternative or whatever at all though, those guys were straight grits. Great band though.

Oh man, it's been a minute since I've heard that expression used.

That's gotta be a regional colloquialism.

[G650 14273]

13 minutes ago, locodos said:

Oh man, it's been a minute since I've heard that expression used.

That's gotta be a regional colloquialism.

 

Yeah I've always had that impression. But I will never see a motherfucker with a denim jacket and Megadeth patch and not think to myself "grit".

[Born to Run 6569]

Apparently it belongs in a museum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_Rock_Museum

Pretty interesting. I'm a huge Nofx fan, and Fat Mike did well with his play, I'll check this out if I'm ever in Vegas again.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Not sure how I missed this thread last month. I can have some pretty strong opinions about music, and I am sure some might see that as gatekeeping, but I really just see them as my opinion. It’s cool if some disagree.

I got to punk/hardcore via classic rock/metal —> 90s alternative (all the Seattle stuff, helmet, quicksand, Orange 9mm, etc —> Rollins Band, and that’s when I dove into Black Flag and Minor Threat. So my perspective is from those bands and similar. For me personally, there is a big difference between Blink 182 and what some may call proto pop punk bands like The Misfits and The Ramones.

On the Lastfm site (which is actually pretty good for finding new bands “that sound like band xyz), this is the top 10 “punk” songs.



I can’t get behind that.

But punk is far from dead. Like someone said up thread, it’s alive and well in the underground and that’s where it belongs. DIY is still a thing, just looks different.

Also, as a reformed recording engineer, it’s tough for me to get behind punk that is super glossy and perfect. I know that is somewhat absurd, but that’s my shitty opinion.

[Born to Run 6569]

Also this is a hilarious read. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/25898266

[jimmyjazz 46091]

Yeah, that's a pretty awful top 10.  Most aren't even close, at all.  It doesn't mean they're necessarily bad, but they're not punk.

Coincidentally, I'm about 1/3 through the Sex Pistols "Classic Albums" doc.  It's pretty entertaining.

[Born to Run 6569]

Not sure how I missed this thread last month. I can have some pretty strong opinions about music, and I am sure some might see that as gatekeeping, but I really just see them as my opinion. It’s cool if some disagree.

I got to punk/hardcore via classic rock/metal —> 90s alternative (all the Seattle stuff, helmet, quicksand, Orange 9mm, etc —> Rollins Band, and that’s when I dove into Black Flag and Minor Threat. So my perspective is from those bands and similar. For me personally, there is a big difference between Blink 182 and what some may call proto pop punk bands like The Misfits and The Ramones.

On the Lastfm site (which is actually pretty good for finding new bands “that sound like band xyz), this is the top 10 “punk” songs.



I can’t get behind that.

But punk is far from dead. Like someone said up thread, it’s alive and well in the underground and that’s where it belongs. DIY is still a thing, just looks different.

Also, as a reformed recording engineer, it’s tough for me to get behind punk that is super glossy and perfect. I know that is somewhat absurd, but that’s my shitty opinion.

That whole list isn't punk, it's marginslly pop punk at best. I've often tried to figure out wtf Blink 182 even tried to be and if they were ever sincere or just trolling and it paid off beyond wildest dreams.

[Born to Run 6569]

My Chemicle is an amazing band but not punk by any metric. It's like the opposite of punk.

[Braff Zacklin 13650]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Not sure how I missed this thread last month. I can have some pretty strong opinions about music, and I am sure some might see that as gatekeeping, but I really just see them as my opinion. It’s cool if some disagree.

I got to punk/hardcore via classic rock/metal —> 90s alternative (all the Seattle stuff, helmet, quicksand, Orange 9mm, etc —> Rollins Band, and that’s when I dove into Black Flag and Minor Threat. So my perspective is from those bands and similar. For me personally, there is a big difference between Blink 182 and what some may call proto pop punk bands like The Misfits and The Ramones.

On the Lastfm site (which is actually pretty good for finding new bands “that sound like band xyz), this is the top 10 “punk” songs.



I can’t get behind that.

But punk is far from dead. Like someone said up thread, it’s alive and well in the underground and that’s where it belongs. DIY is still a thing, just looks different.

Also, as a reformed recording engineer, it’s tough for me to get behind punk that is super glossy and perfect. I know that is somewhat absurd, but that’s my shitty opinion.

I would classify Rage Against the Machine as punk long before any of those bands. Green Day is simple enough to be punk, but I don't think their message has ever been in line with the punk movement. Might as well throw in Rivers Cuomo and Weezer (and I love me some Weezer, but they ain't punk!).

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Well, Zach was in a hardcore band before Rage, so that kind of tracks haha.

 

[Born to Run 6569]

I would classify Rage Against the Machine as punk long before any of those bands. Green Day is simple enough to be punk, but I don't think their message has ever been in line with the punk movement. Might as well throw in Rivers Cuomo and Weezer (and I love me some Weezer, but they ain't punk!).

Green day is punk. They came up very DYI and the early stuff was punk enough. The got less punk as they made money, it happens.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Anyone remember The Lower Class Brats?  I recorded one of their albums in 2003 at my studio in Austin.  I had been open a less than a year after moving back from DC and their label approached me to record it.  I want to say I charged the label $1500 to record and mix it.  I don't know where they took it to get mastered.  I didn't do a great job, but some of that was the limitations of the gear I had.  Anyways, they were nice dudes but not really what I am into when it comes to punk, but still would rather listen to this than Blink 182.

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

42 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

That whole list isn't punk, it's marginslly pop punk at best. I've often tried to figure out wtf Blink 182 even tried to be and if they were ever sincere or just trolling and it paid off beyond wildest dreams.

I don't know if Blink 182 was contrived or not, but plenty of bands tried to cash in on what they were doing.  I worked at a recording studio in DC in 2001-2002.  It was owned by Ken Olden (Hi ken, in case you are out there googling your name).  He was in several popular DC hardcore bands and was friends and bandmates with guys in the NYC hardcore scene, especially the Straight Edge scene, like Porcel from Youth of Today, Judge, Bold, Etc.  Well, I guess pop punk pays out a lot more than straight edge hardcore, so he formed a pop punk band and I was in the studio for much of the recording of their one album.  It is fucking AWFUL and completely contrived.  I mean, I am sure they had fun playing the songs and what not, but it clearly was meant to try and cash in on that whole pop punk thing that got big in the mid to late 90s.  Compare this to Youth of Today or Judge lulz...

 

VS.

 

 

[AnotherUTFan 9771]

Green day is punk. They came up very DYI and the early stuff was punk enough. The got less punk as they made money, it happens.

It's almost unnatural how much people here in the Bay Area hate on Green Day for being the biggest thing to come out of the (locally) legendary Gilman Street scene by branding their pop music as punk.

Personally, I don't get it and I'll side eye those same people when they humble brag about seeing Billy Joe Armstrong at some local show, but the hate is real.

[G650 14273]

8 hours ago, Braff Zacklin said:

Green Day is simple enough to be punk, but I don't think their message has ever been in line with the punk movement.

Say what now

[jimmyjazz 46091]

Dookie is a damn good album.

[irishtexan 11522]

Gatekeeping is the central pillar of the punk rock ethos. For most people who say they like punk rock it's "I can't define what's punk and what isn't punk, but I know it when I hear it/see it." Sometimes it doesn't even make sense. Minor Threat was punk. Fugazi is not punk. Black Flag is punk, but Rollins Band is not punk. Green Day used to be punk, but stopped being punk after Dookie. The Replacements were a punk band on their first record, had a few punk tracks on Hootenanny, and then stopped being punk on Let it Be, even if the way they lived their lives were punk as fuck. On that note, Husker Du is punk. Replacements, not punk. Sometimes hardcore can be classified as punk rock but sometimes it isn't. Black Flag, Misfits, Rise Against and OFF!? Punk. Hot Water Music, Fugazi, Converge? Not punk. 

But anyway, yeah, punk rock is all about gatekeeping. 

[alincoln 2381]

There are plenty of rock bands in many genres comprised of people in their 20s and 30s who sell out theater/amphitheater tours across the country.  They aren't played on the iHeartMedia radio stations that dictate the Hot 100, but there is a vibrant rock music scene that is accessible with very little effort.

[G650 14273]

8 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Gatekeeping is the central pillar of the punk rock ethos. For most people who say they like punk rock it's "I can't define what's punk and what isn't punk, but I know it when I hear it/see it." Sometimes it doesn't even make sense. Minor Threat was punk. Fugazi is not punk. Black Flag is punk, but Rollins Band is not punk. Green Day used to be punk, but stopped being punk after Dookie. The Replacements were a punk band on their first record, had a few punk tracks on Hootenanny, and then stopped being punk on Let it Be, even if the way they lived their lives were punk as fuck. On that note, Husker Du is punk. Replacements, not punk. Sometimes hardcore can be classified as punk rock but sometimes it isn't. Black Flag, Misfits, Rise Against and OFF!? Punk. Hot Water Music, Fugazi, Converge? Not punk. 

But anyway, yeah, punk rock is all about gatekeeping. 

So true.

 

On this theme, circling back to Green Day, Tim Yohannan is one of the top 5 douchebags of all time.

[irishtexan 11522]

8 minutes ago, alincoln said:

There are plenty of rock bands in many genres comprised of people in their 20s and 30s who sell out theater/amphitheater tours across the country.  They aren't played on the iHeartMedia radio stations that dictate the Hot 100, but there is a vibrant rock music scene that is accessible with very little effort.

Name one rock band formed within the last 20 years old selling out amphitheaters.

[G650 14273]

Just now, irishtexan said:

Name one rock band formed within the last 20 years old selling out amphitheaters.

Jason Isbell does just off top of my head.

[alincoln 2381]

1 minute ago, irishtexan said:

Name one rock band formed within the last 20 years old selling out amphitheaters.

Goose and Caamp

[alincoln 2381]

Billy Strings.  Didn't Big Thief sell out Red Rocks this year?

[alincoln 2381]

The War on Drugs, Vampire Weekend

[alincoln 2381]

And then you have the likes of The Lumineers, Mt. Joy and Nathaniel Rateliff.  Not my favorite but they all do theater/amphitheater tours.

[Mdhorn 5984]

53 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Gatekeeping is the central pillar of the punk rock ethos. For most people who say they like punk rock it's "I can't define what's punk and what isn't punk, but I know it when I hear it/see it." Sometimes it doesn't even make sense. Minor Threat was punk. Fugazi is not punk. Black Flag is punk, but Rollins Band is not punk. Green Day used to be punk, but stopped being punk after Dookie. The Replacements were a punk band on their first record, had a few punk tracks on Hootenanny, and then stopped being punk on Let it Be, even if the way they lived their lives were punk as fuck. On that note, Husker Du is punk. Replacements, not punk. Sometimes hardcore can be classified as punk rock but sometimes it isn't. Black Flag, Misfits, Rise Against and OFF!? Punk. Hot Water Music, Fugazi, Converge? Not punk. 

But anyway, yeah, punk rock is all about gatekeeping. 

You have Misfits as Punk and Fugazi as not Punk?  I love both but you can put them into a lot of things.  For me, DIY is punk as fuck, and they both go there.  Also early NYC music that may get construed as New Wave or No Wave. Fine with it any which way. Their influence is far and wide and they all did it their way, with or without a crowd.  Misfits played MSG a few years ago--and it's difficult to think of anything more not punk.  It's all convoluted.  Hell, I'd argue Morphine was punk but I don't think they'd care, nothing loud or jangly.  I think PUP is fun, but I have a monetary threshold and venue about seeing them.  There's a lot of great bands out there--just saw the oranges band in Baltimore and it was freaking great.  They're old now, never made it and their ethos is punk as fuck, although their crowd is not.  But that crowd looks like missing teeth dock workers with a beer in each hand and a fun time is had by all.  And I'm down with it like the Motards back in the day.  Velvet Underground is still my fav band and if they dropped down today, they'd still be ahead of their time.  The rest is what it is.  Replacements, don't care, still one of a kind and Bastards of Young will always be punk.  Now I'm going to sit back and listen to Ritchie Daggers Crime for the millionth time and wonder why anybody would ever anoint themselves gatekeepers of this.  

If I was gatekeeping, I'd probably argue Punk died in late 70s early 80s.  Kind of like Abstract Expressionist--you can do it now because everybody understands the language, but it's not the original stuff.   Wouldn't even 4th or 5th generation.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Mdhorn

[irishtexan 11522]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

Jason Isbell does just off top of my head.

Jason Isbell is a progressive country musician that sometimes plays rock and roll songs. But he's not a rock and roll artist

58 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Billy Strings.  Didn't Big Thief sell out Red Rocks this year?

Americana. Not rock.

1 hour ago, alincoln said:

Goose and Caamp

Who? Neither of those bands are selling out amphitheaters. And their own wiki says Goose is a jam band and Caamp is a folk band. Not rock.

54 minutes ago, alincoln said:

The War on Drugs, Vampire Weekend

Good call. But barely making the cut, as War on Drugs started in 2005 and VW in 2006.

45 minutes ago, alincoln said:

And then you have the likes of The Lumineers, Mt. Joy and Nathaniel Rateliff.  Not my favorite but they all do theater/amphitheater tours.

None of those bands are rock bands. They're americana/folk. Maybe Nathaniel Rateliff? I don't know. He's not for me.

29 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

You have Misfits as Punk and Fugazi as not Punk?  I love both but you can put them into a lot of things.  For me, DIY is punk as fuck, and they both go there.  Also early NYC music that may get construed as New Wave or No Wave. Fine with it any which way. Their influence is far and wide and they all did it their way, with or without a crowd.  Misfits played MSG a few years ago--and it's difficult to think of anything more not punk.  It's all convoluted.  Hell, I'd argue Morphine was punk but I don't think they'd care, nothing loud or jangly.  I think PUP is fun, but I have a monetary threshold and venue about seeing them.  There's a lot of great bands out there--just saw the oranges band in Baltimore and it was freaking great.  They're old now, never made it and their ethos is punk as fuck, although their crowd is not.  But that crowd looks like missing teeth dock workers with a beer in each hand and a fun time is had by all.  And I'm down with it like the Motards back in the day.  Velvet Underground is still my fav band and if they dropped down today, they'd still be ahead of their time.  The rest is what it is.  Replacements, don't care, still one of a kind and Bastards of Young will always be punk.  Now I'm going to sit back and listen to Ritchie Daggers Crime for the millionth time and wonder why anybody would ever anoint themselves gatekeepers of this.  

If I was gatekeeping, I'd probably argue Punk died in late 70s early 80s.  Kind of like Abstract Expressionist--you can do it now because everybody understands the language, but it's not the original stuff.   Wouldn't even 4th or 5th generation.  

Yep. And I said it doesn't make sense. If you want to call Fugazi a punk band that's fine. It's all subjective. And I'm just taking the piss out of everyone and fucking around. That's why genres are stupid. It's all music. 

[Celery Man 20996]

Blink 182 is as good of a band as any to point out that there can be bands that are primarily influenced by punk music that lack a lot of the punk ethos or at least what many people may consider to be the most important aspects of it. That last.fm list is full of pop bands that are primarily on branches of the rock tree that come off of punk. But yeah, they aren't really punk bands and they aren't "punk rock" in the way that people romanticize punk rock bands to be (I mean, Johnny Ramone was a republican).

[G650 14273]

15 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Jason Isbell is a progressive country musician that sometimes plays rock and roll songs. But he's not a rock and roll artist

Americana. Not rock.

Who? Neither of those bands are selling out amphitheaters. And their own wiki says Goose is a jam band and Caamp is a folk band. Not rock.

Good call. But barely making the cut, as War on Drugs started in 2005 and VW in 2006.

None of those bands are rock bands. They're americana/folk. Maybe Nathaniel Rateliff? I don't know. He's not for me.

Yep. And I said it doesn't make sense. If you want to call Fugazi a punk band that's fine. It's all subjective. And I'm just taking the piss out of everyone and fucking around. That's why genres are stupid. It's all music. 

Lol. Aight man.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I really think there has to be a delineation between punk music and punk ethos to have this discussion. Are hip hop artists that started by selling tapes out of the trunk of their cars punk?

[AnotherUTFan 9771]

Name one rock band formed within the last 20 years old selling out amphitheaters.

Black Midi

[alincoln 2381]

26 minutes ago, G650 said:

Lol. Aight man.

Exactly. Lulz.  I guess I must have dreamed the sold out amphitheater shows I attended of those bands.  And talk about splitting hairs on what constitutes rock.  

[irishtexan 11522]

IDLES is filling some big venues. Just thought of them. Austin's own Black Pumas are too. I guess Imagine Dragons counts as a rock band even if they suck donkey dick. 

I'm not serious about any of this shit, btw. 

[G650 14273]

I find your characterization of what is rock interesting if nothing else.

 

Plus there are all sorts of other bands, from terrible like Five Finger Death Punch to not so bad like Greta Van Fleet.