Jim Jordan

[Sawbonz 27445]

5 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

So fucking explain that. “I believe we can relax mask recommendations when the vaccination rate is X% and daily infection number is Z, but only if the vaccines are Y% effective against the variants circulating at that time.” The fact that the answer isn’t a single number or is contingent on multiple conditions is not a reason to be hopelessly vague. 

Fauci needs to retire

[Bullneck 19007]

3 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I hate Gym Jordan.  I think he's a stupid cunt who needs to DIAF.  He and his ilk are a danger to our society and democracy. 

That being said, Fauci said we're administering ~3m vaccines/day.  Would it have been so hard to say that, "if we continue at this rate, we'll have X number of folks vaccinated by Y and then we can start normalcy within Y timeframe"... or something to that effect?

The powers that be are going to have to start showing an exit from this thing or people are just going to start saying "fuck it". 

JMO

This. Sometimes there just isn't enough "roadmap" or "outline of success" said.

[jimmyjazz 45566]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I was just being pedantic. Shocking I know. R0 is the intrinsic transmission rate in a susceptible population. Rt is the current rate. The Rt is what we are really interested in. And if your threshold is Rt <1 there are many places that is already being observed. Texas is right at 1.0 at the moment. 

And Texas is essentially open.

Again, Jordan is arguing against a situation that doesn't exist.  I don't know why this is such a fucking problem for people to understand.

[Anastasis 23398]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Again, Jordan is arguing against a situation that doesn't exist.

If you constrain his argument to "muh freedoms!", yeah.  If you can consider the aspect of his argument that our public health leaders are not articulating objective goals that define the end of the tunnel, or even hedged goals that define the endpoint, he has a point. 

 

[Updawg 2261]

fucking this.  i'm done with the idiocrats.   freezing to death in my icebound home for 59 hours and melting snow to take a shit has left me with zero fucks left to give.
gym, mtg, gaetz, wheels, patrick, paxton, cruz, FUCK THEM ALL TO HELL
where's the guillotine?
get a rope.

Just wait until it’s 105 with no power

[jimmyjazz 45566]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If you constrain his argument to "muh freedoms!", yeah.  If you can consider the aspect of his argument that our public health leaders are not articulating objective goals that define the end of the tunnel, or even hedged goals that define the endpoint, he has a point. 

Can you articulate what Federal government policies need to be rolled back as Covid recedes?

[Anastasis 23398]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Can you articulate what Federal government policies need to be rolled back as Covid recedes?

What does that have to do with what I posted?

People are looking for guidance based on objective measures. For a board full of lawyers and engineers and other people who have to operate in our day to day life with goals that can be operationalized with objective endpoints, I am not sure why there is so much struggle. Fauci operates and communicates in a way that is frustrating and unproductive. 

[Hagbard Celine 10765]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Can you articulate what Federal government policies need to be rolled back as Covid recedes?

i've got one.  masks on planes, on trains, in airports.  must have vaccine passport to enter.

but i have a policy that needs to be legislated.

FOOTBALL.  all levels.  7th grade to the league.

must have vaccine passport to enter or participate over the age of 12.  so let it be written.

[jimmyjazz 45566]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What does that have to do with what I posted?

People are looking for guidance based on objective measures. For a board full of lawyers and engineers and other people who have to operate in our day to day life with goals that can be operationalized with objective endpoints, I am not sure why there is so much struggle. Fauci operates and communicates in a way that is frustrating and unproductive. 

The point is that there is virtually no policy for him to roll back.  Jesus.  (Not to mention it's not his fucking job, he's not speaking for the CDC.)

I mean, I've said it a half dozen times -- he's not an adept communicator.  It doesn't render his opinions less than valuable, and he doesn't need to suffer the slings and arrows of a rape-enabling fuckstick.

Edited April 16, 2021 by jimmyjazz

[jimmyjazz 45566]

3 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

i've got one.  masks on planes, on trains, in airports.  must have vaccine passport to enter.

And none of that has fuckall to do with the First Amendment.  I know you know this, but people are really struggling with his overarching point -- this is a public health concern, not a Constitutional concern.  Not being a politician, he is just fundamentally opposed to weighing in on the latter, and rightfully so.

[DigglerontheHoof 21073]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

The point is that there is no policy for him to roll back.  Jesus.  (Not to mention it's not his fucking job, he's not speaking for the CDC.)

I mean, I've said it a half dozen times -- he's not an adept communicator.  It doesn't render his opinions less than valuable, and he doesn't need to suffer the slings and arrows of a rape-enabling fuckstick.

Then, imho, the Biden Administration needs to put a respected virologist, with communication skills, at a press conference to explain it.

What is the plan for a full reopening with an average of 3m vaccinations/day?  Doesn't sound like an impossible ask, to me. 

[jimmyjazz 45566]

5 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Then, imho, the Biden Administration needs to put a respected virologist, with communication skills, at a press conference to explain it.

I don't necessarily disagree.  I do think the disingenuous nature of the Republicans questioning Fauci has not helped, though.

Edited April 16, 2021 by jimmyjazz

[Hagbard Celine 10765]

if 20% of 330m of us don't get jabbed a "full reopening" is basically impossible

bars, theaters and sporting events without masks is only possible with 100% vaccination

herd immunity is not enough if a variant gets loose and rips through millions of already-vaccinated as a result of the 20% transmitting asymptomatically for 7-10 days before we figure out what's going on

[Anastasis 23398]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The point is that there is virtually no policy for him to roll back.  Jesus.  (Not to mention it's not his fucking job, he's not speaking for the CDC.)

It's not really about federal policy at this point.  It's about public health officials communicating clearly and providing a clear framework for what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like.  Fauci is the most highly elevated public health official in this country.  He fails at communicating a clear framework, because the reality is that it does not exist and has never really existed. A hall pass early on is arguably warranted...at this point not so much.  He operates in a mode at this point that looks like propaganda. You should expect such from a politician, not from a scientist. But at this point in his career, he is more the former than the latter. 

[Sawbonz 27445]

3 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

if 20% of 330m of us don't get jabbed a "full reopening" is basically impossible

bars, theaters and sporting events without masks is only possible with 100% vaccination

herd immunity is not enough if a variant gets loose and rips through millions of already-vaccinated as a result of the 20% transmitting asymptomatically for 7-10 days before we figure out what's going on

Where did you go to medical school?

[Anastasis 23398]

4 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

if 20% of 330m of us don't get jabbed a "full reopening" is basically impossible

bars, theaters and sporting events without masks is only possible with 100% vaccination

herd immunity is not enough if a variant gets loose and rips through millions of already-vaccinated as a result of the 20% transmitting asymptomatically for 7-10 days before we figure out what's going on

jesus christ.

[jimmyjazz 45566]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

It's not really about federal policy at this point.  It's about public health officials communicating clearly and providing a clear framework for what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like.  Fauci is the most highly elevated public health official in this country.  He fails at communicating a clear framework, because the reality is that it does not exist and has never really existed. 

He's a federal official!  He is not responsible for state mandates, most of which are ironically so loose at this point that they might as well not exist.  Why should Fauci answer a question that is not grounded in reality?

He's basically said "I believe people should wear masks until we're at 80% immunity" or some variation on that theme.  I guess he should have said it again?  He's not in a position to demand anything, and I don't see why you think he should stick his neck out even as far as he has, given the fact that he gets crucified by fucksticks every time he does.

You're looking for a scalpel when you should be glad we have a hammer.

[Hagbard Celine 10765]

okay experts telling me why i''m wrong, will hang up and listen

[Biff Tannen 45502]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

If you constrain his argument to "muh freedoms!", yeah.  If you can consider the aspect of his argument that our public health leaders are not articulating objective goals that define the end of the tunnel, or even hedged goals that define the endpoint, he has a point. 

 

Did you watch the same horrifying bullshit I did?  His argument is PURELY "muh freedoms!".  Not once did he ever come close to anything that could be considered a rational thought, let alone, "our public health leaders are not articulating objective goals that define the end of the tunnel".  He is not a serious human.

[Anastasis 23398]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

He's a federal official!  He is not responsible for state mandates, most of which are ironically so loose at this point that they might as well not exist.  Why should Fauci answer a question that is not grounded in reality?

He's basically said "I believe people should wear masks until we're at 80% immunity" or some variation on that theme.  I guess he should have said it again?  He's not in a position to demand anything, and I don't see why you think he should stick his neck out even as far as he has, given the fact that he gets crucified by fucksticks every time he does.

You're looking for a scalpel when you should be glad we have a hammer.

There are people with votive candles with his face on them. I am not sure why you are minimizing his influence. We need messaging that sheds light on the end of the tunnel.  This isn't hard.  Fauci has been all over the place with his messaging. JJ pressed him on objective measures, with predictable bullshit flourishes about "meh freedoms and liberty". The inability to articulate what the end game looks like at this point when we have capability to push out 3-4MM shots a day is problematic. 

[Anastasis 23398]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Did you watch the same horrifying bullshit I did?  His argument is PURELY "muh freedoms!".  Not once did he ever come close to anything that could be considered a rational thought, let alone, "our public health leaders are not articulating objective goals that define the end of the tunnel".  He is not a serious human.

I watched it.  I am able to separate the "meh freedoms" red meat from the points made about objective goals. 

[jimmyjazz 45566]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

JJ pressed him on objective measures, 

* damn close to a neg for pointing out that Gym and I can use the same shorthand

[Anastasis 23398]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

* damn close to a neg for pointing out that Gym and I can use the same shorthand

This really isn't about Gym.  It's frankly amazing that Fauci has been politically bubble wrapped such as to be impervious to criticism. 

[Sawbonz 27445]

12 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

okay experts telling me why i''m wrong, will hang up and listen

Well if you had taken epidemiology, infectious diseases, pathophysiology, and immunology I wouldn’t have to. 
 

I worry more about brisket’s apocalypse than your scenario. And I don’t worry about his at all

[Sawbonz 27445]

16 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

believe people should wear masks until we're at 80% immunity

Fuck that

[BrickHorn 18197]

23 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

He's basically said "I believe people should wear masks until we're at 80% immunity" or some variation on that theme.

When? Because in those videos, all Fauci said is that we should wear masks until we’re at a “safe level” and that we are currently not at a safe level. But he declined to explain his view of what is a safe level. Which was a reasonable question to ask an the federal government’s leading epidemiologist during his testimony to Congress. 

[UDontKnow 10439]

29 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Where did you go to medical school?

Sounds a lot like what Gym Jordan might ask. In fact he told Rep. Clyburn he didn't want to hear Clyburn's point because he wasn't a doctor.

Fauci doesn't need to retire. He needs to be left alone by shitty people aka Republicans.

[Sawbonz 27445]

4 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Sounds a lot like what Gym Jordan might ask. In fact he told Rep. Clyburn he didn't want to hear Clyburn's point because he wasn't a doctor.

Fauci doesn't need to retire. He needs to be left alone by shitty people aka Republicans.

No. He needs to retire

[UDontKnow 10439]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

No. He needs to retire

Are you familiar with his body of work and the other projects he's been working on before the COVID pandemic? He's doing just fine. And because you don't like the way he deals with shitty Republicans is no reason for him to retire. Few ppl in America are as qualified, dedicated, and willing to do the work that he does.

[jimmyjazz 45566]

19 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

When? Because in those videos, all Fauci said is that we should wear masks until we’re at a “safe level” and that we are currently not at a safe level. But he declined to explain his view of what is a safe level. Which was a reasonable question to ask an the federal government’s leading epidemiologist during his testimony to Congress. 

Seriously?  He has absolutely said he can still see the need for masks into 2022.  

It's as if none of you have seen the man speak for the last several months and are going off 2-minute clips of him getting attacked by a Republican congressman.

 

Oh, and once again, @Anastasis, this IS the Jim Jordan thread.  You don't get to define it otherwise.

Edited April 16, 2021 by jimmyjazz

[Hagbard Celine 10765]

33 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Fuck that

what if someone told you football without masks if we were at 90% vaccination and proof required to enter?

[Anastasis 23398]

Pretty funny watching the oil separate from the water. 

[Sawbonz 27445]

32 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Are you familiar with his body of work and the other projects he's been working on before the COVID pandemic? He's doing just fine. And because you don't like the way he deals with shitty Republicans is no reason for him to retire. Few ppl in America are as qualified, dedicated, and willing to do the work that he does.

I’m very familiar with his body of work. I was at Parkland in the early 90’s when we were 2nd only to UCSF in number of AIDS patients treated. There are currently hundreds of people as qualified as him to do what he’s doing. And they aren’t 80 years old. 
 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Sawbonz

[henrygandorf 29179]

6 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Even monumental drooling fucksticks can raise legitimate points.

[Sawbonz 27445]

6 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

what if someone told you football without masks if we were at 90% vaccination and proof required to enter?

I’d be fine with no masks as soon as everyone who wants a shot has had a chance to get one. Which should be in 3 months at most. Dallas County now has walk-in shots at fair park if you’re 55 and up and next day signups for all comers. My 17 yo got her first Pfizer at a pharmacy today after signing up 2 weeks ago and they told her not to bother getting an appointment for the second just call the day before. 

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2659]

Real question -- why has the timeline changed so much? Seemed like the consensus around these parts was Memorial Day should be a pretty strong guess of better days. 

Is it just the variants (which we predicted anyway)?  And notwithstanding J&J, why 3 more months until everyone can get the shot who wants it?

Cynical me thinks that if the benchmark is 3 mil shots to be given per day, the demand is going to run out way before the supply, and we won't get to where we want to be primarily  based on refusal. 

[Incredulity 11561]

Fauci’s horse race PowerPoint graphic with a virus on one horse and syringe on the other cracked me up.  Really sold the, we are in a race,point.

[Hagbard Celine 10765]

@Sawbonz

i'm not fine with no masks as soon as everyone who wants a shot has had a chance to get one.

vaccinated people prevent a deterrent to mutation.  period end of story.

unvaccinated people provide a gaping glory hole for mutation exploitation.

and we _do_not_know_ if a mutation will arrive which blows through the mRNA technology (pfizer + moderna).

you're % "everyone who wants one" could be as low as 60% jabbed / 40% freedumbs.

that 40% is a clear and present danger to our national security.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Hagbard Celine
@sawbonz

[atomheartbevo 89460]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Once the studies and what have you happened, the CDC changed their guidance, as did Faucci. 

But those chucklefucks still post his words saying he’s stupid and said mask don’t work. So Faucci doesn’t want to say any hard number as the dynamic situation might change again and more mouth breathers will have more ammunition to spread their covid feces on Parler. 

Everything is completely binary with the dipshits like Gym.  If some new evidence comes out, and you slightly change your stance, Gym loses his shit and says you were completely wrong and don't know what you are doing. Actually, not Gym, he's actually educated and is capable of changing his mind if new evidence comes to light (unless it involves Matt Gaetz or wrestling programs).

But he thinks his base are complete idiots and he panders to them.

[Sawbonz 27445]

27 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Real question -- why has the timeline changed so much? Seemed like the consensus around these parts was Memorial Day should be a pretty strong guess of better days. 

Is it just the variants (which we predicted anyway)?  And notwithstanding J&J, why 3 more months until everyone can get the shot who wants it?

Cynical me thinks that if the benchmark is 3 mil shots to be given per day, the demand is going to run out way before the supply, and we won't get to where we want to be primarily  based on refusal. 

I really think he’s afraid to be wrong and is erring on the side of (too much) caution. 
 

coronaviruses are not subject to much if any genetic drift and essentially no genetic shift. The first is the reason they have to tweak the flu shot yearly and the second is the reason every so often we see one that no one really has any innate immunity to and shit gets bad. There is no scientific reason to think COVID-19 would be any different than the other coronaviruses we have experience with. The current vaccines should confer lasting immunity (at least in terms of clinical illness) to new variants. Also, we are seeing good near term protection from reinfection in people who have had the virus but not been vaccinated, likely due to T cell mediated immunity. Some studies indicate at least some of the (rare) reinfections are not from second exposure at all but rather reactivation of dormant virus in the host 

 

Fauci never talks about any of this. The most likely scenario is cases plummet by mid to late summer and you deal with hotspots using classic epidemiologic protocols of isolation and contact tracing.
 

Of course no one has a crystal ball but that is what should happen. Fauci surely knows this but is scared of being wrong. 
 

ETA I’m with you in that demand for vax is going to plummet. I say 3 months just to give the fence sitters a chance. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Sawbonz

[Sawbonz 27445]

17 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

@Sawbonz

i'm not fine with no masks as soon as everyone who wants a shot has had a chance to get one.

vaccinated people prevent a deterrent to mutation.  period end of story.

unvaccinated people provide a gaping glory hole for mutation exploitation.

and we _do_not_know_ if a mutation will arrive which blows through the mRNA technology (pfizer + moderna).

you're % "everyone who wants one" could be as low as 60% jabbed / 40% freedumbs.

that 40% is a clear and present danger to our national security.

See my response to CNAJ. I think your fears are unfounded. I think I would have to go into more detail than I am willing to do on the basic science to make you understand my reasoning for not sharing your concern. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I get your point, but when I see stuff like the tweet below, it is hard not to think that the clowns are going to make the circus tent collapse and us halfway sane folks will be trampled by the elephants (literal and metaphorical)

It may not be a coincidence that Michigan's surge is happening when you look at Canada. Cases in other areas adjacent to Canada have been seeing spikes as well.

 

[Hookah Horns 3082]

33 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Real question -- why has the timeline changed so much? Seemed like the consensus around these parts was Memorial Day should be a pretty strong guess of better days. 

Is it just the variants (which we predicted anyway)?  And notwithstanding J&J, why 3 more months until everyone can get the shot who wants it?

Cynical me thinks that if the benchmark is 3 mil shots to be given per day, the demand is going to run out way before the supply, and we won't get to where we want to be primarily  based on refusal. 

It's been pretty obvious to me for a while that the morons refusing the shot are going to fuck the rest of us over. 

[Biff Tannen 45502]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Everything is completely binary with the dipshits like Gym.  If some new evidence comes out, and you slightly change your stance, Gym loses his shit and says you were completely wrong and don't know what you are doing. Actually, not Gym, he's actually educated and is capable of changing his mind if new evidence comes to light (unless it involves Matt Gaetz or wrestling programs).

But he thinks his base are complete idiots and he panders to them.

This is the crux of the "issue".  This is why Jim Jordan and every other motherfucker like him (which is apparently about 74 million Americans) are NOT SERIOUS HUMANS.  Someone give me one god damn motherfucking reason we should continue to pretend like they are? 

In my opinion, we should move the fuck on without them in every part of existence.  The only reason it's annoying to do so right now is because the pandemic will continue longer if we just let them run around like the morons they are, not getting vaccines and spreading the virus and letting it mutate further.

 

LET.  THEM.  FUCKING.  ROT.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

3 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's been pretty obvious to me for a while that the morons refusing the shot are going to fuck the rest of us over. 

Yep.

[Hookah Horns 3082]

20 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

The current vaccines should confer lasting immunity (at least in terms of clinical illness) to new variants. 

 

I don't think this is clear at all yet. Have you seen the latest from Israel about Pfizer and the South African variant? 

[Anastasis 23398]

9 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

It may not be a coincidence that Michigan's surge is happening when you look at Canada. Cases in other areas adjacent to Canada have been seeing spikes as well.

Build a wall. 

[Biff Tannen 45502]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

I really think he’s afraid to be wrong and is erring on the side of (too much) caution. 
 

coronaviruses are not subject to much if any genetic drift and essentially no genetic shift. The first is the reason they have to tweak the flu shot yearly and the second is the reason every so often we see one that no one really has any innate immunity to and shit gets bad. There is no scientific reason to think COVID-19 would be any different than the other coronaviruses we have experience with. The current vaccines should confer lasting immunity (at least in terms of clinical illness) to new variants. Also, we are seeing good near term protection from reinfection in people who have had the virus but not been vaccinated, likely due to T cell mediated immunity. Some studies indicate at least some of the (rare) reinfections are not from second exposure at all but rather reactivation of dormant virus in the host 

 

Fauci never talks about any of this. The most likely scenario is cases plummet by mid to late summer and you deal with hotspots using classic epidemiologic protocols of isolation and contact tracing.
 

Of course no one has a crystal ball but that is what should happen. Fauci surely knows this but is scared of being wrong. 
 

ETA I’m with you in that demand for vax is going to plummet. I say 3 months just to give the fence sitters a chance. 

This is actually very well reasoned and I know you are an MD and that makes sense.  Most people would read what you wrote and have no fucking clue what any of it means.  Fauci doesn't talk about it because you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main person knows what the fuck a T cell is?

My father and father in-law are doctors and my wife is a PA.  I've been around medicine my entire life.  I get it.  Most people don't.  And you want Fauci to try and explain it to them?  Jesus.

[Anastasis 23398]

1 minute ago, Hookah Horns said:

I don't think this is clear at all yet. Have you seen the latest from Israel about Pfizer and the South African variant? 

Case control study design gives zero insight into vaccine effectiveness.  Only enrichment of cases with variant strains. 

[Anastasis 23398]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

And you want Fauci to try and explain it to them?  Jesus.

That's his fucking job. To put things in terms that non trained individuals understand.