Jim Jordan

[Sawbonz 27443]

4 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

By any metric or viewpoint, cases are surging.

Any metric?

https://www.utsouthwestern.edu/covid-19/assets/modeling.pdf

[UDontKnow 10439]

9 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Any metric?

https://www.utsouthwestern.edu/covid-19/assets/modeling.pdf

I said cases, not hospitalizations.

Quote

Now that the mask mandate and business restrictions have been lifted in Texas, the model projects that our case trajectory still depends heavily on both our behavior and our collective success in vaccinating North Texas. A small uptick in positive cases is projected in the near term, though longer-term scenarios are encouraging given the acceleration in vaccination volumes and reported decrease vaccine hesitancy. As emphasized by the Governor, continued personal adherence to masking, physical distancing, and other interventions recommended by health experts will be necessary to protect the health of Texans, particularly those who have not yet been vaccinated.

The long-term scenarios could change if we start to see a greater impact due to variants that are more contagious or have some ability to evade immunity from vaccines or prior exposure. Genetic sequencing of all positive test samples at UT Southwestern has confirmed a substantial increase in the prevalence of the more contagious B.1.1.7 variant in the region. It first appeared in early February and now makes up over 30% of positive samples. The likely more contagious B.1.526 variant and the B.1.351 variant, sometimes referred to as the South African variant, have also been reported in Texas, but these have not yet been detected in any samples at UT Southwestern.

Fucking LOL. Wow, didn't realize UT Southwestern was slobbing Abbott's knob. Good God!

The data and analysis is restricted to Dallas and Tarrant Counties. They are not reflective of poor vaccination rates and vaccine hesitancy in other parts of the state or the country.

The analysis says to expect an uptick in cases.

 

Moderate means 'could be better or could be worse', certainly not low. The bolded suggests younger individuals are likely healthy carriers of infection (page 15).

Quote

Infection rates are moderate across all age groups. It appears that rates have stabilized over the last few weeks across most age groups, though there has been an increase in positives tests in those under age 30, possibly linked to increased mobility.

So there's this...

Quote

Survey data shows a marked decrease in observed and self-reported adherence to masking recommendations in public places. Cell phone data and self-reported surveys indicate substantial increases in mobility, in some cases approaching pre-pandemic levels.

and also this...

Quote

It is important to remember that people arriving at the hospital today were likely infected ~2 weeks ago. Maintaining our current levels of compliance with prevention measures will help us control transmission in North Texas.

So the 'Commentary' (page 3) of this report flies in the face of your previous assertion not to wear a mask if you're fully vaccinated. The predicted uptick in cases makes complete sense if you consider that adherence to social distance and mask wearing is likely to continue to fall. So might need to see an updated report in 2-3 weeks to see if this report's prediction for Dallas and Tarrant Counties comes to fruition.

 

Also, testing has fallen dramatically in the state (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/12/coronavirus-texas-testing/) and nationally (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/03/04/covid-testing/) which means that there is definitely an undercounting of positive cases. The question is by how much? Of course, undercounted cases is an epidemiologic principle of any outbreak investigation.

In case folks here don't understand the need for testing that runs simultaneously to vaccination, read the quote from the virologist from University of Wisconsin (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/health/coronavirus-covid-testing.html)

Quote

“Do we want to know how well vaccines are working? We’re going to have to test,” said David O’Connor, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. “How are we going to know whether the variants are more contagious? We’re going to have to test. How are we going to know if the vaccines are effectively controlling the variants? We’re going to have to test.”

 

[Sawbonz 27443]

Jesus not this shit again. The point of everything we are doing is to decrease hospitalizations and deaths. They are down in DFW and from what I hear in Houston as well. For the first time in 6 months I can book elective cases at either of the 2 level 1 trauma centers where I have privileges. Parkland closed its covid unit. Asymptomatic and mild cases are meaningless unless you are pushing fear. 
 

eta this virus is endemic world wide. We are not going to eradicate it. Wear a mask forever if you want. Don’t expect sane people to do so 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Sawbonz

[Anastasis 23397]

39 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

The point of everything we are doing is to decrease hospitalizations and deaths.

And now we’re back to the need for communication of objective measures and end points. This was always the point as I understood it, but some people seem to think something else entirely is the end game. Seems like maybe someone could help clarify the goal setting. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23397]

5 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

Fauci isn't a bureaucrat. He's an infectious diseases researcher. He is not politicking. He's giving the current state of affairs which isn't so rosy when he was called to testify for the umpteenth time. IMO, Congress should leave the man alone because nothing is changed based on his previous statements.

[Anastasis 23397]

6 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

By any metric or viewpoint, cases are surging. Taking the attitude that public health measures will not slow down infectious transmission (especially asymptomatic transmission) is foolhardy. I will have you recall that testing is down as well too. Read and educate yourself.

Do you live in Michigan or Minnesota?  That sucks if so, for reasons unrelated to the COVID.  I live in Travis county Texas where I am going to laugh in your face if you are arguing that we are having a case surge. 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

And now we’re back to the need for communication of objective measures and end points. This was always the point as I understood it, but some people seem to think something else entirely is the end game. Seems like maybe someone could help clarify the goal setting. 

Gym Jordan and Anastasis want to know NOW when they can stop wearing a mask!

[BrickHorn 18197]

25 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Gym Jordan and Anastasis want to know NOW when they can stop wearing a mask!

That shit misses the point so fucking badly. Objective observers who come to this without any prior biases against Jordan or Fauci are likely to view their exchange as Jordan asking a legitimate question of a government-employed expert and the expert dodging the question. It feeds the conspiracy theory narrative of eternal mask mandates and unending restrictions. And responses like yours only make that problem worse.

Look, I’m as cautious as they come about Covid, I am annoyed by the impatient scientifically illiterate nincompoops defying mask mandates and generally being idiots, and I am certainly no fan of Jordan. But buried under all his stupid MUH RIGHTS!!! bluster was a legitimate question and Fauci fucking refused to answer it and his doing so feeds the trolls.

And @jimmyjazz still hasn’t pointed to a single time Fauci answered this question.

Edited April 18, 2021 by BrickHorn

[jimmyjazz 45565]

6 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

And @jimmyjazz still hasn’t pointed to a single time Fauci answered this question.

I'm not going to dig into a year's worth of media interviews to find the many times he has talked about "normalcy" being keyed to 70% - 85% immunity.  Beyond that, he can't answer Jordan's question, because (a) there are essentially zero freedoms being restricted by the Federal government, save test requirements for inbound air travellers and mask requirements on airplanes, and (b) he doesn't have the authority to say when those will be lifted.  Jordan's beef is with  state and municipal governments.  He knows this.  Why don't you know this?

[GW Hayduke 1952]

4 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

It feeds the conspiracy theory narrative of eternal mask mandates and unending restrictions

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated. Tell your family to wear a mask and get vaccinated. Stop excusing Gym Jordan and right wing conspiracy theorists. 

[BrickHorn 18197]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Wear a mask. Get vaccinated. Tell your family to wear a mask and get vaccinated. Stop excusing Gym Jordan and right wing conspiracy theorists. 

Such a tone deaf response. Defeating this pandemic requires effective PR. One of the obstacles to ending the pandemic is a segment of the population’s knee-jerk resistance to perceived paternalistic rules, and your solution is to respond with even more paternalism? Do you want to actually solve this thing or just condescendingly lecture people?

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm not going to dig into a year's worth of media interviews to find the many times he has talked about "normalcy" being keyed to 70% - 85% immunity.  Beyond that, he can't answer Jordan's question, because (a) there are essentially zero freedoms being restricted by the Federal government, save test requirements for inbound air travellers and mask requirements on airplanes, and (b) he doesn't have the authority to say when those will be lifted.  Jordan's beef is with  state and municipal governments.  He knows this.  Why don't you know this?

Here ya go:

Feb/21

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-fauci-says-when-we-can-stop-wearing-masks/ar-BB1dFKo4

"That means "you need to get about 70 to 85% of the population vaccinated," said Fauci during a virtual event at the University of Miami on Thursday. Fauci defined herd immunity as "when the level of virus is so low in the community, that it clearly is no longer a threat … and there are very few infections."

He repeated something similar in March, so I'll stop there with links. In the March interview he brought up variant surges, but if I understood his remarks correctly he was saying that is why getting the vaccines in arms was important: it stops the variants among the greater population. He didn't mention Israel, but that does seem to be what is occurring there--they have things looking pretty good at this moment.

[GW Hayduke 1952]

3 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Such a tone deaf response. Defeating this pandemic requires effective PR. One of the obstacles to ending the pandemic is a segment of the population’s knee-jerk resistance to perceived paternalistic rules, and your solution is to respond with even more paternalism? Do you want to actually solve this thing or just condescendingly lecture people?

And the whole reason a segment is resistance is because of Gym Jordan, his cronies, and folks like you that need to know NOW when you don’t have to wear a mask. 

This isn’t hard. Cowboy up. Wear a mask. Get vaccinated. Stop excusing Gym. Tell Gym to get fucked.

[Biff Tannen 45500]

20 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Such a tone deaf response. Defeating this pandemic requires effective PR. One of the obstacles to ending the pandemic is a segment of the population’s knee-jerk resistance to perceived paternalistic rules, and your solution is to respond with even more paternalism? Do you want to actually solve this thing or just condescendingly lecture people?

I just want to condescendingly lecture people.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I am a soldier fighting "a great battle, against an invisible enemy," I will not waver.

 

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Jesus not this shit again. The point of everything we are doing is to decrease hospitalizations and deaths.

who is "we" ?

[Sawbonz 27443]

2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

who is "we" ?

I don’t know if you noticed but there are millions of people getting vaccinated daily and none of them are getting a bill. Businesses are requiring masks and distancing even in places where the local governments don’t. And there is a federal requirement to wear masks in airports, bus and train stations, and on planes, trains, and buses. That “we”

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Asymptomatic and mild cases are not meaningless unless you are pushing fear.  Until we have certainty on the long-term effects on the immune system, on the central nervous system, on the lungs, the heart, the liver, and on and on and on, and don't tell me we do know any of this yet.

fify.

[Anastasis 23397]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

Gym Jordan and Anastasis want to know NOW when they can stop wearing a mask!

 

Not really.  I know when I can stop wearing a mask. It was about 4 weeks ago. Reducing this discussion to individual mask wearing is simplistic and wrong headed, but unsurprising.  It's about public health messaging.

 

If at this point the nation's epidemiologist cannot clearly articulate the objective and measurable endpoint, we are left to conclude that there is not one.  Either that, or there is one and for whatever reason he doesn't want to say what it is. I hope that it is the former and not the latter.  But at some point in the pandemic, it becomes unconscionable to leave the end game so poorly defined and communicated.  

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Anastasis

[Sawbonz 27443]

2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

fify.

You’ll be wearing a mask and distancing for the next 10 years? 
 

remind me of your medical background 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Sawbonz

[DDD Dad 14258]

 
Not really.  I know when I can stop wearing a mask. It was about 4 weeks ago. Reducing this discussion to mask wearing is simplistic and wrong headed, but unsurprising.  
 
If at this point the nation's epidemiologist cannot clearly articulate the objective and measurable endpoint, we are left to conclude that there is not one.  Either that, or there is one and for whatever reason he doesn't want to say what it is. I hope that it is the former and not the latter.  But at some point in the pandemic, it becomes unconscionable to leave the end game so poorly defined and communicated.  
 

Fauci talk not going away.

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You you’ll be wearing a mask and distancing for the next 10 years? 
 

remind me if your medical background 

this is the 2nd time you've attempted to squash my take with your medical phallus credentials, which is an indication of you having some vested interest in a return to "normalcy" beyond your medical station.

[jimmyjazz 45565]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know if you noticed but there are millions of people getting vaccinated daily and none of them are getting a bill. Businesses are requiring masks and distancing even in places where the local governments don’t. And there is a federal requirement to wear masks in airports, bus and train stations, and on planes, trains, and buses. That “we”

I'm not getting your point.  Is this somehow related to Jim Jordan's questioning of Dr. Fauci?

[Sawbonz 27443]

Just now, Hagbard Celine said:

this is the 2nd time you've attempted to squash my take with your medical phallus credentials, which is an indication of you having some vested interest in a return to "normalcy" beyond your medical station.

It’s a legitimate question. You may not understand the subject well enough to understand why you are wrong. If you have no medical background I can refer you to my posts above on the assumptions we can make based on what we know of coronaviruses and conferred immunity in general as well as what we have learned thus far about COVID-19. 
 

If you have a substantial background in medicine or a related field and are still so wrongheaded in your thinking I can stop wasting time replying to you

[Sawbonz 27443]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm not getting your point.  Is this somehow related to Jim Jordan's questioning of Dr. Fauci?

Read the post I was responding to. Unless you’re being the thread police. Which is fair

Edited April 18, 2021 by Sawbonz

[jimmyjazz 45565]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If at this point the nation's epidemiologist cannot clearly articulate the objective and measurable endpoint, we are left to conclude that there is not one.  Either that, or there is one and for whatever reason he doesn't want to say what it is. 

As I understand it, you want to see something like "78% of the population fully vaccinated will be adequate to eliminate the guidance for wearing masks and attempting to social distance".  I suspect one problem with sharpening the pencil to that degree is the unknown efficacy of the current vaccines against new variants.  The more positive news we gain on that front, the easier it will be to confidently say we should go back to business as usual.

[Anastasis 23397]

10 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

Flexible second dosing is absolutely idiotic - why wouldn't you attempt to reduce the time to fully vaccinated status to attempt to slow transmission and when there is concern for viral mutation that is likely reducing the efficacy of the current vaccine supply? It is no longer an issue of supply, it's an issue of distribution and combating vaccine hesitancy.

Seems to be working pretty damn well in the UK.

ETA: I do agree that we are transitioning out of a supply constraint situation to a demand constraint one.  Single dose strategy made sense during period of supply constraint (like early february when I was advocating it across a few threads), not so much as demand becomes the bottle neck moving forward. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Anastasis

[jimmyjazz 45565]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

Read the post I was responding to. Unless you’re being the thread police. Which is fair

No, you didn't quote anyone so I wasn't sure.  Carry on.

[Anastasis 23397]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

As I understand it, you want to see something like "78% of the population fully vaccinated will be adequate to eliminate the guidance for wearing masks and attempting to social distance".  I suspect one problem with sharpening the pencil to that degree is the unknown efficacy of the current vaccines against new variants.  The more positive news we gain on that front, the easier it will be to confidently say we should go back to business as usual.

I would be ok with some hedging around the variants...but I think that all of the good news in terms of vaccine efficacy against variants needs to be included as well.  Pump the positive news on the variant front, in particular as it related to vaccines, instead of doomer cowering. 

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

32 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

It’s a legitimate question. You may not understand the subject well enough to understand why you are wrong. If you have no medical background I can refer you to my posts above on the assumptions we can make based on what we know of coronaviruses and conferred immunity in general as well as what we have learned thus far about COVID-19. 
 

If you have a substantial background in medicine or a related field and are still so wrongheaded in your thinking I can stop wasting time replying to you

https://effectiviology.com/credentials-fallacy/

[Nivek 16864]

It’s a legitimate question. You may not understand the subject well enough to understand why you are wrong. If you have no medical background I can refer you to my posts above on the assumptions we can make based on what we know of coronaviruses and conferred immunity in general as well as what we have learned thus far about COVID-19. 
 
If you have a substantial background in medicine or a related field and are still so wrongheaded in your thinking I can stop wasting time replying to you

What is your medical background exactly?

[UDontKnow 10439]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

What is your medical background exactly?

He's an orthopedic surgeon. Look at his handle and the post where he references booking elective cases at the trauma centers he is credentialed at.

[GW Hayduke 1952]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

 

Not really.  I know when I can stop wearing a mask. It was about 4 weeks ago. Reducing this discussion to individual mask wearing is simplistic and wrong headed, but unsurprising.  It's about public health messaging.

 

If at this point the nation's epidemiologist cannot clearly articulate the objective and measurable endpoint, we are left to conclude that there is not one.  Either that, or there is one and for whatever reason he doesn't want to say what it is. I hope that it is the former and not the latter.  But at some point in the pandemic, it becomes unconscionable to leave the end game so poorly defined and communicated.  

 

Wear a mask dipshit.

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

14 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

He's an orthopedic surgeon. Look at his handle and the post where he references booking elective cases at the trauma centers he is credentialed at.

he's not going to address the callout on expertism just like he ignored every point i've made that he doesn't like because his business relies on a return to normalcy.

i don't have anasstasis figured out yet.

[UDontKnow 10439]

1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

he's not going to address the callout on expertism just like he ignored every point i've made that he doesn't like because his business relies on a return to normalcy.

i don't have anasstasis figured out yet.

You pretty much nailed sawbonz. From what little I have paid attention, anastasis likes to be a contrarian 90% of the way and then will come back with some minor point to agree on. I feel that Anastasis likes to talk out of both sides of his/her/theirs mouth.

[Anastasis 23397]

10 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Wear a mask dipshit.

I already do dipshit. 

[Anastasis 23397]

11 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

he's not going to address the callout on expertism just like he ignored every point i've made that he doesn't like because his business relies on a return to normalcy.

i don't have anasstasis figured out yet.

Cute.  Aren't you a 9/11 truther?

[Sawbonz 27443]

16 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

he's not going to address the callout on expertism just like he ignored every point i've made that he doesn't like because his business relies on a return to normalcy.

i don't have anasstasis figured out yet.

From a revenue standpoint my surgical volume has been above pre covid levels since September. Office visits are up. I have plenty of options to bring cases to facilities other than the trauma centers to do elective cases and while it’s often less convenient for me and the patients, doesn’t affect anything else. All my patients are required to wear masks as do I and my staff.

 

I find it interesting that in the same post where you accuse me of an inappropriate appeal to authority, you provide an ad hominem reason for my stance rather than refuting my points.
 

You can do whatever you want, but IMO much of your decision-making is seemingly emotionally-based and not based on likelihood or the data we know so far. Overall, I think you’re a really good poster, so at this point I’m going to disengage. If we do have a breakout mutant killer strain I’ll be happy to share a bunker with you and yours

[GW Hayduke 1952]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I already do dipshit. 

But you knew 4 weeks ago you can stop wearing a mask
 

[UDontKnow 10439]

2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

But you knew 4 weeks ago you can stop wearing a mask
 

And right there is the both sides of the mouth I was talking about regarding Anastasis. 

[Sawbonz 27443]

40 minutes ago, Nivek said:

What is your medical background exactly?

I stayed at a holiday inn express last night 

[Anastasis 23397]

3 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

But you knew 4 weeks ago you can stop wearing a mask
 

Unlike some of you guys I understand the public health implications of messaging and modeling of behaviors and the impact that it has on others. I don't wear a mask for myself, I wear it in the appropriate settings so that the people that are at risk feel comfortable and continue wearing one before their monkey brains kick in. This stuff isn't that complex guys. 

[Anastasis 23397]

6 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

And right there is the both sides of the mouth I was talking about regarding Anastasis. 

Speaking of monkey brains.  

[UDontKnow 10439]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Speaking of monkey brains.  

You started resorting to posting of memes when you were losing the argument. So your ad hominem attacks won't phase me.

Also, you backtrack so quickly when you get called out. "You don't need to wear masks, but I wear one to make people feel comfortable." It's a pathetic attempt to rewrite your narrative and I don't think anyone here is buying that.

Unlike you, I have the appropriate medical and public health background with the degrees and fellowship training to back it up. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by UDontKnow

[DDD Dad 14258]

Take this mask shit talking to one of the 20-odd COVID threads. Jesus.

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Cute.  Aren't you a 9/11 truther?

another ad-hominem attempt.  next.

[Anastasis 23397]

Just now, UDontKnow said:

You started resorting to posting of memes when you were losing the argument. So your ad hominem attacks won't phase me.

Also, you backtrack so quickly when you get called out. "You don't need to wear masks, but I wear one to make people feel comfortable." It's a pathetic attempt to rewrite your narrative and I don't think anyone here is buying that.

Unlike you, I have the appropriate medical and public health background with the degrees and fellowship training to back it up. 

I find it hard to fathom somebody with both medical and public health degrees defending the lack of objective and measurable goals as a core component of our public health messaging, but I guess they exist.       

 

[UDontKnow 10439]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I find it hard to fathom somebody with both medical and public health degrees defending the lack of objective and measurable goals as a core component of our public health messaging, but I guess they exist.       

 

Considering I have provided ample evidence from a variety of medical and public health professionals who have studied/worked on this particular issue and have exponentially more experience than everyone on this board put together, I'm going to respond to you henceforth Rocko-style because you continue to be a science-denying contrarian talking out of both sides of your mouth who isn't man/woman/[insert appropriate term] enough to admit when [insert pronoun of choice] is wrong. 

"Yawn."

[Anastasis 23397]

4 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Considering I have provided ample evidence from a variety of medical and public health professionals who have studied/worked on this particular issue and have exponentially more experience than everyone on this board put together, I'm going to respond to you henceforth Rocko-style because you continue to be a science-denying contrarian talking out of both sides of your mouth who isn't man/woman/[insert appropriate term] enough to admit when [insert pronoun of choice] is wrong. 

"Yawn."

What medical and public health officials are arguing that objective and measurable goal setting is not a crucial component of public health messaging as it relates to the pandemic end game.  I'll hang up and listen. 

[UDontKnow 10439]

Just now, Anastasis said:

What medical and public health officials are arguing that objective and measurable goal setting is not a crucial component of public health messaging as it relates to the pandemic end game.  I'll hang up and listen. 

Yawn.