America's Loneliness Epidemic

[SydneyCarton 48253]

2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

While accurate, most of these aspects you mention also will be found in any cult, although the level of constant mandated and enforced community is often even more immersive than what you describe.   The issue in America is no longer that the organized church is not “perfect”.   The issue in America is that fundamentalist churches are now so completely toxic that participation in those churches have driven away any right thinking young people from their doors.  If a loss of community ensues because of people leaving those churches, even given the loss of community aspect, leaving is usually vastly beneficial to the individuals.  

 People are not turning away from Christianity because they don’t like Christianity and the principles behind it. They are turning away from Christianity in America because it has the devolved into something that does not remotely resemble the type of Golden Rule Christianity espoused in the New Testament.    We will have to agree to disagree on things.  Really, both of us are likely painting with too broad a brush. 

And if somewhere in there you were implying or advocating that a return of all those self-banishing people to the church would help eliminate the loneliness epidemic that is the topic of this thread, I would counter that being miserable in those churches - and encountering constant criticism and hate for beliefs that do not mess with those churches’ beliefs - is not a viable solution to the loneliness problem. 

Great post, and I'm specifically referring to the last paragraph. The only time I've ever felt more lonely than being by myself, was typically when I was in a relationship with someone that I knew wasn't going to be a good long term fit. Which was most of my relationships in my 20s and 30s. Being around people, or near people isn't a cure for loneliness for everyone. Sometimes it just exacerbates the feelings of loneliness you have and comprounds it even further. I can't imagine anyone open to religion or christianity and encountering even a few of the wrong type wouldn't get them to write off church completely. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[Brisketexan 105489]

45 minutes ago, royiv said:

He's someone who has posted disgusting, hateful things about marginalized members of our society on this board. I'm sure his church community is full of people who share his disgusting viewpoints. Take whatever he says with a gigantic grain of salt.

38 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Did you ever think that the church you’re defending is just an “idealized version of yourself”?  Of course people who hate gays and browns and poors are gonna defend the hateful churches and tell people who stand up to them that they’re “disagreeing with god”.  

Anne Lamott summed it up quite well:

“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”

I've seen this shit from the inside.  So has my wife.  So have my kids.  We are far, far, far from alone.  It's done its damage.  When the people who wave The Cross the highest and loudest, as both a sword and a shield, are also those LITERALLY CHEERING when someone mentions shooting brown people crossing the river, then the fucking cross is hot garbage.  Anyone with even a child's grasp on the message of the Gospels knows those two things are 100% incompatible (as just one example.  The spit-flinging demonization of gay people is another, and it's particularly offensive to people like my kids, who love and are protective of their gay peers.  When "the church" comes for their friends, my kids and those like them have their friends' backs.)

Is a group more focused on emphasizing kindness?  Or is it fucking mean?  It's not a lot more complicated than that.  Many of our institutions -- which, to get back to the topic here, have long been a focal point of community and social engagement -- are openly fucking mean.  And proud of it.  And they become self-selecting for that; as people who don't like being around mean bullshit leave, all that's left are the people who LIKE engaging in mean bullshit, making the institution even LESS attractive, socially.

If we want to be less lonely, then we need to be less fucking exclusive.  Why don't Americans have as many friends as they used to?  Because a shitload of Americans are fucking dicks, and most people don't want to hang around with fucking dicks.

[Gatorubet 30335]

1 hour ago, AnimationTaco said:

But to Frank Derbin's point, there are church's out there for all walks of life and faith (or whatever people characterize it as). There are women preachers and gay preachers and people wearing pride flags and all kinds of things that you'd never see just 10 years ago in most big cities. Not making a comment on those institutions other than to observe they exist and probably connect lonely people.

Hester Prynne says, “Hey!”

And those “institutions” are called churches.  Which is why you are being correctly flipped off.

[B00M 6520]

cool story bro but every weekday I drive my young children to school and drive past the middle school bus stop in our neighborhood. Every single fucking kid is sitting or leaning with horrific posture, staring into a phone, physically as far from all of their peers as possible. The isolation is so obvious and jarring I can’t help but worry about it… I don’t know how parents live with themselves, giving their children phones, when it results in this. A middle school bus (and the bus stop) is supposed to be awkward. You make friends and enemies and learn how to navigate basically un-policed social scenarios (the bus driver sure isn’t saving you from the bully). Or I guess you melt your young brain staring at porn and figure out how to stand up for yourself and defuse conflicts later in life? 

[SydneyCarton 48253]

25 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Hester Prynne says, “Hey!”

And those “institutions” are called churches.  Which is why you are being correctly flipped off.

Another great post. 

At the end of the day, while there are many sects of Chrisianity, and an abundance of ways to worship, at the end of the day a vast majority of Christian sects USED to be able to agree on the basics of what was the most important in being a good Christian. Just like any other religion. But that is no longer the case. And after the 90's and 9/11, we watched out entire country adopt an undercurrent and distrust, skepticism, or downright hositiltiy towards Muslim people in this country. And despite on the surface, our political leaders at least feigned lip service to equality, being a nation of immigrants, and not blaming an entire group of people for the acts of their most violent extremists. To little to no avail, imo.

And now, when large sections of our political leaders, and our Christian leaders, campiagn as loudly and vocally as possible against various minority groups, be it muslims, immigrants, gays/trans, and low and behold "liberal" types, and "churchres" and their followers are rejecting the WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST AS TOO LIBERAL...some people are shocked when young and middle age people are rejecting Christianity in droves becuase they don't like the messages and actions of the fundamentalists. 

We've literally seen society do this on a large scale before to another religion becuase it was alien and painted as violent and hateful to our way of life. And people are perplexed when young people are rejecting something in droves because they find the loudest and most visible expression of Christianity to be hateful and violent against what they see as fundamental aspects of their lives (and the lives of their friends?). I'm not shocked. In this isntance, I'm impressed. Less so with how it worked out after 9/11.

They say that sports is the front porch to the college university system. And it's shown time and time again, national titles and football sucess lead to incraesed enrollment, donations, etc. While there are tens of thousands, hundreds of thosuands different Christian chruches to choose from, and almost certainly a community to your liking out there...when the front porch of Christianity is the loudest, most hateful and vile rhetoric, guess what, people aren't buying. I don't need a second opinion on aTm when I see their alumni asking football players if they're aggies or blaggies, or failing to hire a qualified candidate because she's black and worked for the NYT and paying her a million dollars as a result of their inherent racism to think "You know, let me dig further and find the aggie community for me." I write them the fuck off. 

There's never a second chance to make a first impression, and the cure for loneliness isn't spending your time trying to find the one community amongst thousands of Christian options that might fit your needs.  If anything, that's just going to make you feel like more of an outsider, and more lonely, like being rejected by a thousand women. If you make finding the community hard, it'll be hard to build a good community. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[MissingInAction 25248]

I'm hugging everyone at the next surly tailgate. 

[Brisketexan 105489]

8 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I'm hugging humping everyone at the next surly tailgate. 

FIF unnerving accuracy.

[MissingInAction 25248]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

FIF unnerving accuracy.

That's up to you... 

Edited September 19, 2023 by MissingInAction

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Chrispy must be the loneliest person on the internet because he absolutely can not walk away from this site/community. Yet he is here with his homie deacon dickbag to give us all advice.



Regarding smart phones and the like, axiom mentioned this was in motion prior to their invention. However, there does seem to be a correlation with the proliferation of the internet in the mid 90s. It’s a double edged sword to say the least.

[Pescado_Rojo 19452]

42 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I'm hugging everyone at the next surly tailgate. 

[sidis 9832]

4 hours ago, axiom of foundation said:

Lots of good points on the impact of social media and iPhones on isolation, but the problem started before either of these were common.  There was a fairly well known study done in the 90s that was published in an article called “bowling alone” that documented the decline in organized social groups of all types, including bowling leagues, bridge/pinnacle clubs, church activities, etc.  I think it’s definitely the case that phones and social media has made the problem worse, but it started before social media and smart phones were widespread.   
 

Human relationships are messy.  People let you down and often believe crazy things. If you want a big social network you need to have a high tolerance for the dumb things we all do.  

a very good post.  that last lines are fairly profound and very accurate.  i have had a harder time managing some instincts that steering me in the other direction over the last few years. 

[MissingInAction 25248]

47 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

So, I'll be seeing you at the tailgate.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Regarding smart phones and the like, axiom mentioned this was in motion prior to their invention. However, there does seem to be a correlation with the proliferation of the internet in the mid 90s. It’s a double edged sword to say the least.

Here is a link to the article I referenced, published in 1995. 

Bowling Alone: America's Declining Social Capital

It states that the decline in the US began around the middle of the 20th century:

A series of identical questions posed by the Roper Organization to national samples ten times each year over the last two decades reveals that since 1973 the number of Americans who report that "in the past year" they have "attended a public meeting on town or school affairs" has fallen by more than a third (from 22 percent in 1973 to 13 percent in 1993). Similar (or even greater) relative declines are evident in responses to questions about attending a political rally or speech, serving on a committee of some local organization, and working for a political party.

Our survey of organizational membership among Americans can usefully begin with a glance at the aggregate results of the General Social Survey, a scientifically conducted, national-sample survey that has been repeated 14 times over the last two decades. Church-related groups constitute the most common type of organization joined by Americans; they are especially popular with women. Other types of organizations frequently joined by women include school-service groups (mostly parent-teacher associations), sports groups, professional societies, and literary societies. Among men, sports clubs, labor unions, professional societies, fraternal groups, veterans' groups, and service clubs are all relatively popular. 

The parent-teacher association (PTA) has been an especially important form of civic engagement in twentieth-century America because parental involvement in
the educational process represents a particularly productive form of social capital. It is, therefore, dismaying to discover that participation in parent-teacher organizations has dropped drastically over the last generation, from more than 12 million in 1964 to barely 5 million in 1982 before recovering to approximately 7 million now.

Next, we turn to evidence on membership in (and volunteering for) civic and fraternal organizations. These data show some striking patterns. First, membership in traditional women's groups has declined more or less steadily since the mid-1960s. For example, membership in the national Federation of Women's Clubs is down by more than half (59 percent) since 1964, while membership in the League of Women Voters (LWV) is off 42 percent since 1969. Similar reductions are apparent in the numbers of volunteers for mainline civic organizations, such as the Boy Scouts (off by 26 percent since 1970) and the Red Cross (off by 61 percent since 1970). 

The most whimsical yet discomfiting bit of evidence of social disengagement in contemporary America that I have discovered is this: more Americans are bowling today than ever before, but bowling in organized leagues has plummeted in the last decade or so. Between 1980 and 1993 the total number of bowlers in America increased by 10 percent, while league bowling decreased by 40 percent. 

Something or some range of factors are driving isolation in modern society, and it seems to have began before the internet was publicly available.  I do agree that phones/social media is pouring gasoline on the fire.   

 

2 hours ago, sidis said:

a very good post.  that last lines are fairly profound and very accurate.  i have had a harder time managing some instincts that steering me in the other direction over the last few years. 

Grazie amico.  I've got the same problem.  Preaching to myself.  

[BearSchlong 8134]

Enough church talk. I want to hear more about Bear's gumbo.

Enough church talk. I want to hear more about Bear's gumbo.

Enough church talk. I want to hear more about Bear's gumbo.

I like church because of the pipe organ, the steinway grand, 300-year-old hymns, my female pastor, and the fact that after cataract surgery I can sit in church during the sermon but before the doxogy and meditate with a renewed appreciation on the stained glass and our mid-century modern sanctuary.

Gumbo is just lagniappe.

I can't stand visiting churches that are painted flat black like a soundstage. With a glass enclosed drum kit and guitars.

[elfenix 34365]

 

[Captainant 27887]

11 hours ago, axiom of foundation said:

The most whimsical yet discomfiting bit of evidence of social disengagement in contemporary America that I have discovered is this: more Americans are bowling today than ever before, but bowling in organized leagues has plummeted in the last decade or so. Between 1980 and 1993 the total number of bowlers in America increased by 10 percent, while league bowling decreased by 40 percent. 

Something or some range of factors are driving isolation in modern society, and it seems to have began before the internet was publicly available.  I do agree that phones/social media is pouring gasoline on the fire.   

I think this is all an artifact of workers having generally less and less stability and means to achieve a middle class lifestyle over the years since deregulation and shareholder economics came into vogue. I don't think it's the driving factor, but I would argue that it's that "good airflow" that makes the "gasoline" of cell phones really go kaboom

[drt 640]

39 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I think this is all an artifact of workers having generally less and less stability and means to achieve a middle class lifestyle over the years since deregulation and shareholder economics came into vogue. I don't think it's the driving factor, but I would argue that it's that "good airflow" that makes the "gasoline" of cell phones really go kaboom

I was thinking all of this is also reflective of a lack of free/down time for the average person as well. Hard to have peer to peer interactions if you don’t actually see them very often due to work/kids/whatever. 

[Captainant 27887]

7 minutes ago, drt said:

I was thinking all of this is also reflective of a lack of free/down time for the average person as well. Hard to have peer to peer interactions if you don’t actually see them very often due to work/kids/whatever. 

This is really what I mean, thank you for stating it clearly. There's an ever growing pressure to be doing more and growing and expanding no matter what at all costs. We don't have unlimited time. It's gonna eat in to some other time. 

One of my peers just spent a year and a half working hard on projects and traveling and speaking and hooray! He got promoted! His reward is a marginal pay increase and more responsibility and more "opportunity for growth", only at the low cost of missing effectively half a year of his kids childhood and an ongoing expectation of giving that elevated level as standard moving forwards. 

It's completely decoupled from giving a shit about the employees as people. It boils down to a nice KPI deliverables dashboard for some middle manager to show off in their monthly review, but it grinds people down. Hell, I've been watching my manager get grayer by the day as he's had a sick child and has been working out of his son's hospital room. 

Because that's the expectation. Nobody can ever produce less than they did last quarter for any reason. Otherwise you're at risk. 

 

THAT dynamic is why there's so much less socialization, IMO. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

This is really what I mean, thank you for stating it clearly. There's an ever growing pressure to be doing more and growing and expanding no matter what at all costs. We don't have unlimited time. It's gonna eat in to some other time. 
One of my peers just spent a year and a half working hard on projects and traveling and speaking and hooray! He got promoted! His reward is a marginal pay increase and more responsibility and more "opportunity for growth", only at the low cost of missing effectively half a year of his kids childhood and an ongoing expectation of giving that elevated level as standard moving forwards. 
It's completely decoupled from giving a shit about the employees as people. It boils down to a nice KPI deliverables dashboard for some middle manager to show off in their monthly review, but it grinds people down. Hell, I've been watching my manager get grayer by the day as he's had a sick child and has been working out of his son's hospital room. 
Because that's the expectation. Nobody can ever produce less than they did last quarter for any reason. Otherwise you're at risk. 
 
THAT dynamic is why there's so much less socialization, IMO. 

All true.

I recently returned to the engineering side of O&G from the owner side (because I am a fucking idiot). The story is always the same. Client is one of the more notorious hard ass oil companies in the world and drives a schedule that is just absurd. Many of the engineers are working 50-60 hours a week to try to deliver. It’s not worth it, especially if you have kids. And if both parents work, it just puts more stress on home life. Not because of lack of earnings, but time. That’s great that you worked your ass off and squirreled away money for your kids education, but at the rate we are going those kids will be so fucked up it might not matter.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, drt said:

I was thinking all of this is also reflective of a lack of free/down time for the average person as well. Hard to have peer to peer interactions if you don’t actually see them very often due to work/kids/whatever. 

This is a good point, although kids used to be a thing that brought communities together, now it somehow seems the opposite.  And on average people have fewer children than previous generations, so that alone shouldn’t drive isolation. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by axiom of foundation

[SydneyCarton 48253]

A lot of that snippet discusses the lack of activity in women's groups, and parental groups. Shockingly it dovetails with women entering the workplace, increases in them going to college, etc. Shockingly enough, when we allow women to have their own lives, their own jobs, their own dreams, there's less invovlement in female civic organizations. Yes, I'm lumping parent-teacher organizations in there with this, becuase lets be honest, in the 60's and 70's those were almost certainly driven in a vast majority by women. If you squint, there's a baseline of mysogyny riddled in that seam of thought. The greater sense of community built on the backs of women who didn't work, couldn't make all of their own choices, and made everyone else feel less lonely at the expense of themselves. 

 

That being said, there's dozens, hundreds of reasons we feel lonely. It's not just one thing. Cell phones, evolution of gender roles and responsibilties, social media, inability for wages and lifestyle to match costs, all of it. More distractions, less motivation to create communities, fuck, less of a desire to create communities becuase we don't really like half our fucking neighbors. 

In this world of self selection, people are going to need to actively work to create and cultivate their OWN communities. They have to want to do it, they have to work to do it. There's lots of options, but at the end of the day we have to want to put the work in to get the desired result. It's not just "well, this is my town, this is my community. This is my church, this is my community, this is my subdivision, this is my community." It's going to be your game group, your friend circle, your exotic bird watching club, your online football board full of assholes. 

What concerns me is that I don't think people know that they want/need communities. They just sit around feeling something is wrong, feeling depressed, feeling unhappy, and not knowing how to address it until they shoot up a school. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

A lot of that snippet discusses the lack of activity in women's groups, and parental groups. Shockingly it dovetails with women entering the workplace, increases in them going to college, etc. Shockingly enough, when we allow women to have their own lives, their own jobs, their own dreams, there's less invovlement in female civic organizations. Yes, I'm lumping parent-teacher organizations in there with this, becuase let’s be honest, in the 60's and 70's those were almost certainly driven in a vast majority by women. If you squint, there's a baseline of mysogyny riddled in that seam of thought. The greater sense of community built on the backs of women who didn't work, couldn't make all of their own choices, and made everyone else feel less lonely at the expense of themselves. 

It’s a 10 page journal article that gives information on the decline in social engagement across virtually all categories and types.  Throw out the impact on women for any perceived misogyny.  Why would bowling league membership plummet from 1980 to 1993 even though more people go to bowling alleys?  Why did groups made up mostly of men also decline by similar percentages during that time period?

[SydneyCarton 48253]

Just now, axiom of foundation said:

It’s a 10 page journal article that gives information on the decline in social engagement across virtually all categories and types.  Throw out the impact on women for any perceived misogyny.  Why would bowling league membership plummet from 1980 to 1993 even though more people go to bowling alleys?  Why did groups made up mostly of men also decline by similar percentages during that time period?

I said the snippet you posted for a reason. I'm familar with the concept, it was actually expanded into a very succesful and famous book:
https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046
 

Which is why I said your snippet had a hint of misogyny. In fact, I never disputed anything you said, I simply pointed out what changed in regards to women being more accepted into colleges, the workplace, and the effect on civic organizations. Why did men groups also decline? Perhaps because instead of being married and going bowling, they were single and trying to get married. Or maybe they were married, and doing more of their share of the housework becuase their wives were also working, becuase 1 household income had become harder and harder to support? I honestly don't know. Like everything else I said in my post, there are probably LOTS of reasons.

I never argued that American socical fabric and community hasn't wildly changed, fuck Ive agreed with that on this thread. I think it's obvious, and not even worth debating that it HAS taken place. And a conversation on WHY it has taken place is also interesting. But the biggest part of my posts is that I believe people are so lost, they don't even know what's missing, only that something is missing; much less how to fix it. 

 

[Brisketexan 105489]

Some good discussion these last few posts.  And yeah, I would think that the changes in how we work has a good bit to do with it.  As does the phenomenon of women entering the workforce.  And a dozen other things that are the biggest factors.

Would I have enjoyed being in a bowling league?  I'm 100% sure I would have.  Something competitive, laughing with your friends and giving them shit, cheeseburgers and cold beer?  What's not to love?  But my CAREER is one that precludes a regular commitment.  "Sorry, judge/client/law partner, I can't make that out-of-town hearing next week because Tuesday is my league night."  That was never going to happen.

What's sad to me is that I think that most of us KNOW that something is wrong, something very important is missing.  But we don't have any idea how to meaningfully address it.  We are, at our foundation, a sad and lonely society.  All of this "prosperity" and wealth, and we are actually pretty damned poor.  What we THINK OF and idolize as success, social standing, etc., is often fake or contrived.

Happiness isn't a curated selection of photos of perfectly plated food at a glitzy restaurant with beautiful people.  Happiness is a backyard BBQ cooking cheap meat from the neighborhood grocery, standing around the pit and drinking beers and telling embellished stories about how awesome you are as your buddies call you on your bullshit, the kids running around and getting muddy in the yard.  You are connected with those closest to you.  And you're also connected to the neighbors from a block over who showed up and brought some kickass chocolate chip cookies, and that fucker is a lot better than you at cornhole so you better up your game, but the thing is, he's cool about it, which makes it even more annoying.

We're not just lonely.  We're unhappy.  We've forgotten how to be happy, and yeah, those things are unquestionably connected.  In frustration, fear, and anger, we've thus become even MORE isolated, angry, and mean.  Which is further disincentive to building community.  Putting us in a death spiral.  Other than doing a few things on a micro level (getting to know your neighbors better, saying "yes" to social invitations), it seems like a Mt. Everest that we have no chance of summiting.  Maybe we can climb up a few feet, but shit.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I told that Kraut a fuckin' thousand times, I don't roll on shabbos.

[CHIEF 5095]

I don't ever feel lonely, as I live in a community with a lot of work from home folks, and retirees. All I have to do is go to the clubhouse and there are multiple groups of people to talk to. The problem I have, is no one knows how to carry on a conversation anymore. No one is listening to one another, they are just thinking about the next thing they are going to say, interrupting each other, and then going down a boring rabbit hole. There is also a lot of "one upmanship." Gone are the days of the good storyteller, someone will interrupt and they never get to finish the story.

At least, on Surly, you can lay out a whole conversation, or idea, and have it agreed with, or criticized. It sucks, but it is the reality I have come to realize.

CHIEF

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

When was the last time one of y’all had a block party in your neighborhood? My folks, before retiring to the coast, lived in the same hood for over 40 years. Before I was 10 we had at least 2 big block parties that I can remember. I asked my folks if any had happened since I moved out at 18 and they said no. Now some of that is because it was young, growing families that moved in when the neighborhood was built and as kids (and parents) got older, moved out, promotions at work with more responsibilities these things fell to the wayside. However, in the past 10-15 years right before they left, much of the hood had flipped and again has younger, growing families. But still no block parties. I guess it’s all the same factors that we are discussing that have caused people to become more insulated and isolated.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I don't ever feel lonely, as I live in a community with a lot of work from home folks, and retirees. All I have to do is go to the clubhouse and there are multiple groups of people to talk to. The problem I have, is no one knows how to carry on a conversation anymore. No one is listening to one another, they are just thinking about the next thing they are going to say, interrupting each other, and then going down a boring rabbit hole. There is also a lot of "one upmanship." Gone are the days of the good storyteller, someone will interrupt and they never get to finish the story.
At least, on Surly, you can lay out a whole conversation, or idea, and have it agreed with, or criticized. It sucks, but it is the reality I have come to realize.
CHIEF

That’s narcissism. And I do believe a lot of it these days is fueled by social media/keeping up with the joneses.

[CHIEF 5095]

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

When was the last time one of y’all had a block party in your neighborhood? My folks, before retiring to the coast, lived in the same hood for over 40 years. Before I was 10 we had at least 2 big block parties that I can remember. I asked my folks if any had happened since I moved out at 18 and they said no. Now some of that is because it was young, growing families that moved in when the neighborhood was built and as kids (and parents) got older, moved out, promotions at work with more responsibilities these things fell to the wayside. However, in the past 10-15 years right before they left, much of the hood had flipped and again has younger, growing families. But still no block parties. I guess it’s all the same factors that we are discussing that have caused people to become more insulated and isolated.

We have a huge back porch with a fireplace and outdoor kitchen, it was almost every weekend with our friends when CHIEF Jr. was in elementary and junior high. When he was in high school and college, that switched to his friends being here every weekend. Now that they have all graduated and moved away or gotten married, it has pretty much dropped to 3-4 times per year. Many moved to the DFW area, but several have moved back, and more are trying, once it cools off, we will probably be back to every other weekend or so. We have always been the "notorious" party house in our community.

CHIEF

[Smax 3800]

1 hour ago, axiom of foundation said:

This is a good point, although kids used to be a thing that brought communities together, now it somehow seems the opposite.  And on average people have fewer children than previous generations, so that alone shouldn’t drive isolation. 

 

 

Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

@Captainant I think that is why the whole work/life balance  movement is growing

[Js1 85656]

28 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

At least, on Surly, you can lay out a whole conversation, or idea, and have it agreed with, or criticized. It sucks, but it is the reality I have come to realize.

To be fair, you can’t really interrupt a story being posted on a message board. 

[CHIEF 5095]

3 minutes ago, Js1 said:

To be fair, you can’t really interrupt a story being posted on a message board. 

And that is the beauty of it. 

CHIEF

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Smax said:

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Anecdotal from my experiences and don’t have any data to support it, but when I was young many of our family friends and networks were made through and around the kids.  Parents would meet at ball games, PTA meetings, etc and would become friends.  Then we’d get together on weekends, go camping, back yard BBQs, and so on. 
 

With my peers, one of the top reasons given for why people can’t get together is activities and commitments associated with their kids.  I’ve heard friends say that they don’t have time for their peers anymore after having kids. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by axiom of foundation

[royiv 9404]

47 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

When was the last time one of y’all had a block party in your neighborhood? My folks, before retiring to the coast, lived in the same hood for over 40 years. Before I was 10 we had at least 2 big block parties that I can remember. I asked my folks if any had happened since I moved out at 18 and they said no. Now some of that is because it was young, growing families that moved in when the neighborhood was built and as kids (and parents) got older, moved out, promotions at work with more responsibilities these things fell to the wayside. However, in the past 10-15 years right before they left, much of the hood had flipped and again has younger, growing families. But still no block parties. I guess it’s all the same factors that we are discussing that have caused people to become more insulated and isolated.

One of the best parts of the block we live on is that it's very close knit and most of the neighbors all know each other and socialize. During COVID, my wife and I started hanging out in our driveway in the evening on Coleman camp chairs with a cocktail or glass of wine. This started a trend where other neighbors joined us for socially distanced drinks every weekend. Some nights we would have up to 20 adults plus some kids and dogs joining us.

We haven't done it in over a year and we've had three new families move in recently so we're going to throw a formal block party this fall for everyone to get together again as a group and to include the new neighbors. 

[Smax 3800]

7 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

Anecdotal from my experiences and don’t have any data to support it, but when I was young many of our family friends and networks were made through and around the kids.  Parents would meet at ball games, PTA meetings, etc and would become friends.  Then we’d get together on weekends, go camping, back yard BBQs, and so on. 
 

With my peers, one of the top reasons given for why people can’t get together is activities and commitments associated with their kids.  I’ve heard friends say that they don’t have time for their peers anymore after having kids. 

 

 

Thanks, similar experiences and never really put 2 and 2 together but yeah that is kind of odd

[royiv 9404]

6 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

Anecdotal from my experiences and don’t have any data to support it, but when I was young many of our family friends and networks were made through and around the kids.  Parents would meet at ball games, PTA meetings, etc and would become friends.  Then we’d get together on weekends, go camping, back yard BBQs, and so on. 
 

With my peers, one of the top reasons given for why people can’t get together is activities and commitments associated with their kids.  I’ve heard friends say that they don’t have time for their peers anymore after having kids. 

Do you have kids yourself? The reason I ask is that my wife and I don't have kids and we experience this in some cases with friends that have kids. We've always just figured that people with kids start socializing with the parents of their kids friends. In other cases, we have friends that want to get away from their kids for a night and hang with us so they can have normal adult time. It's a bit of a mixed bag in our experience.

[G650 14294]

55 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

When was the last time one of y’all had a block party in your neighborhood? My folks, before retiring to the coast, lived in the same hood for over 40 years. Before I was 10 we had at least 2 big block parties that I can remember. I asked my folks if any had happened since I moved out at 18 and they said no. Now some of that is because it was young, growing families that moved in when the neighborhood was built and as kids (and parents) got older, moved out, promotions at work with more responsibilities these things fell to the wayside. However, in the past 10-15 years right before they left, much of the hood had flipped and again has younger, growing families. But still no block parties. I guess it’s all the same factors that we are discussing that have caused people to become more insulated and isolated.

We have them every now and again. We actually did one on the street about I dunno, 8 years ago or so where we all did the 23 and Me thing and had a reveal party, which was actually kind of fun. You had to cook a dish that was what you thought you were, then we revealed to see what we actually were. In case anyone is wondering, I was 99% Anglo, so I'm probably the whitest motherfucker any of y'all ever came across. Practically clear.

 

The one marginally racist guy on the street ended up have like 7% Indo African DNA. LOL.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, royiv said:

Do you have kids yourself? The reason I ask is that my wife and I don't have kids and we experience this in some cases with friends that have kids. We've always just figured that people with kids start socializing with the parents of their kids friends. In other cases, we have friends that want to get away from their kids for a night and hang with us so they can have normal adult time. It's a bit of a mixed bag in our experience.

Yes, I do.  I do have a fairly large social network, but it is almost entirely through family (my wife and I both come from a large family) and work.  I've made almost no lasting friendships through my kids activities, and they are involved in a large range of typical kid activities.  I've even coached three different ball clubs.  All the parents are very nice and polite people, they just seem completely drained and have limited free time.  Me and my wife eventually gave up on asking them to hang out.  Also, my kids rarely have sleepovers, and that was very common when I was a kid.   

Almost all of our non family friends are either empty nesters or single people.  My guess is that for your friends with kids, they may have some new friend groups, but their total social time is probably way down.      

[C-Man 27293]

23 hours ago, axiom of foundation said:

Human relationships are messy.  People let you down and often believe crazy things. If you want a big social network you need to have a high tolerance for the dumb things we all do.  

[MissingInAction 25248]

Gotta love it when an asshole makes an excuse for their own behavior.

"It's not me, it's your fault if you can't deal with me being a piece of shit."

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Gotta love it when an asshole makes an excuse for their own behavior.

"It's not me, it's your fault if you can't deal with me being a piece of shit."

I don’t know if this was directed at me or not, but my original comment was about having patience for the sake of maintaining relationships, not blaming others for why they don’t want to be friends. 

[Brisketexan 105489]

Doing an inventory of our friends with whom we actually do stuff, and where they came from:

1) old friends from college and graduate schools.  Not many of these, but some.  One of my oldest friends here in town, I've been friends with for over 30 years.

2) friends made later in life, through shared interests like UT sports.  Honestly, this is my core friend group.  For my wife, she's got a couple of groups like this - friends made through her spin classes, Junior League, etc.

3) friends made through our professional lives.  We have a good number of these, but they aren't our closest friendships, mostly.

4) friends made through our active church years.  We have a couple of really good friends, and a few more casual friends, from this group.

5) friends made through our kids and their activities.  We have one family that we are really close with because our sons got to be friends.  They're a jewish family from Chicago, and culturally plenty different.  But they're smart, kind, and funny, and we like hanging out together.  We all love to cook, so that's fun, even though I have to adjust my cooking when we're sharing (no pork, no shellfish -- challenges for a mexican coonass).  WE have a couple of other families that we met through our kids schools and activities that are casual friends, but we really don't see them much.  Kids weren't a huge source of friends for us (except to the extent that "kids" was a big part of our church life, and that circle WAS a source of friends).

The thing is, we're probably on the higher end of "socially connected" people these days.  And it's still hard, and lonely sometimes.  Layer onto that the fact that we're now empty nesters, and my wife really loves our alone time with just the two of us, and it's easy to stay in a bubble.  I'm the more socially needy person - I need connection and social energy; I drink it up when we're in a sociable group of strangers.  I love high-fiving people I just met at a game, bullshitting with them between plays, what have you.  But she realizes it, too (that's why her regular spin classes are really important to her, and she really draws energy from the folks we've gotten to know around us at Austin FC matches).  She's also big on preaching the importance of community -- from the pulpit, when she marries people, at funerals.  She is profoundly aware of how essential to our very being community is.  But even she gets frustrated trying to think of ways to build and strengthen community.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Brisketexan

[MissingInAction 25248]

18 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

I don’t know if this was directed at me or not, but my original comment was about having patience for the sake of maintaining relationships, not blaming others for why they don’t want to be friends. 

It was directed towards the assholes I've cut out of my life. There's no excuse for abuse.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

We have them every now and again. We actually did one on the street about I dunno, 8 years ago or so where we all did the 23 and Me thing and had a reveal party, which was actually kind of fun. You had to cook a dish that was what you thought you were, then we revealed to see what we actually were. In case anyone is wondering, I was 99% Anglo, so I'm probably the whitest motherfucker any of y'all ever came across. Practically clear.
 
The one marginally racist guy on the street ended up have like 7% Indo African DNA. LOL.

That’s funny.

In reading this and a couple of replies to my question further proves that while I am capable of being social, even outgoing, at times, it’s not my normal MO. I prefer to be on my own or a small group.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

I was listening to this Huberman Labs podcast the other day and his guest was talking about how to be happy.

His formula was really simple: Agency + Gratitude = Happiness.

As I was listening, I sort of struggled with the idea of agency, but as I read more about it, I think it perfectly describes my experience with/without my iPhone. This notion that we ultimately have control over our decisions and our actions, and that being intentional about those things allows us to create the life we want.

My phone made it easy for me to live with very little intentionality. But that left me feeling really empty. I've heard others here describe reasons for feeling lonely, sad, etc. But I think ultimately we have the agency to affect change and ultimately create the life we want. 

[G650 14294]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

That’s funny.

In reading this and a couple of replies to my question further proves that while I am capable of being social, even outgoing, at times, it’s not my normal MO. I prefer to be on my own or a small group.

 

Oh, I think I should point out I'm a mega introvert. The status quo actually suits me fine. Our neighbors do the whole pull lawn chairs into the driveway and have drinks thing that @royiv describes pretty often, I draw the curtains and hide. Not that I don't like my neighbors, they are actually pretty good, but the last thing  I want to do all day after having to interact with people is talk to another human. Give me a book and a cocktail so I can recover.

 

I don't think that extroverts can truly understand the energy cost it takes an introvert to interact. Some understand that it exists, but that's not the same as really getting the feeling. Once my tank is drained, I have to top it up with alone time.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

 
Oh, I think I should point out I'm a mega introvert. The status quo actually suits me fine. Our neighbors do the whole pull lawn chairs into the driveway and have drinks thing that [mention=245]royiv[/mention] describes pretty often, I draw the curtains and hide. Not that I don't like my neighbors, they are actually pretty good, but the last thing  I want to do all day after having to interact with people is talk to another human. Give me a book and a cocktail so I can recover.
 
I don't think that extroverts can truly understand the energy cost it takes an introvert to interact. Some understand that it exists, but that's not the same as really getting the feeling. Once my tank is drained, I have to top it up with alone time.

Yep, I feel the same. And like other introverts or semi-introverts, I don’t think this has anything to do with loneliness. I think the quality of the social interactions and the regularity (whether that means daily for one person, or quarterly to another) is what is important.

[SydneyCarton 48253]

Another thing is to consider is that loneliness may be partly about options.

When you feel like you're alone, you don't have any friends, you don't have a spouse/partner, you don't have the skills to meet new people, you don't know how to form new friendships, you don't know how to interact socially...you feel alone. And trapped. And depressed. 

When you know that you have friends, either close or acquaintances, that you can call for a beer; when you've generally had sex picking up men/women when you want to try or have had a lot of long term relationships and are confident you could find another one; when you know you CAN go to a socail event and strike up and carry a conversation with anyone...then you have options. You feel like you can change your circumstances. Which means coming home, drawing the curtains, and reading a book or cocktail simply becomes your choice or preference. And man, that is not the same thing, the same ballpark, as feeling like you're just stuck at home alone, forever. And that is the biggest part where I think the phone is dangerous. Because lots of folks never learn those skills, so their default is to feel completely isolated.

[G650 14294]

28 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Yep, I feel the same. And like other introverts or semi-introverts, I don’t think this has anything to do with loneliness. I think the quality of the social interactions and the regularity (whether that means daily for one person, or quarterly to another) is what is important.

I agree fully.

[KCMasterpieceof 24]

23 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Another thing is to consider is that loneliness may be partly about options.

When you feel like you're alone, you don't have any friends, you don't have a spouse/partner, you don't have the skills to meet new people, you don't know how to form new friendships, you don't know how to interact socially...you feel alone. And trapped. And depressed. 

When you know that you have friends, either close or acquaintances, that you can call for a beer; when you've generally had sex picking up men/women when you want to try or have had a lot of long term relationships and are confident you could find another one; when you know you CAN go to a socail event and strike up and carry a conversation with anyone...then you have options. You feel like you can change your circumstances. Which means coming home, drawing the curtains, and reading a book or cocktail simply becomes your choice or preference. And man, that is not the same thing, the same ballpark, as feeling like you're just stuck at home alone, forever. And that is the biggest part where I think the phone is dangerous. Because lots of folks never learn those skills, so their default is to feel completely isolated.

I think what you've kind of described is an accurate recipe for the the rise of mental illness, specifically the rise of the incel.

Edited September 20, 2023 by KCMasterpieceof