Someone fucked up a block, we can’t figure out who

[Longhornlove 4779]

2 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

Was he pissed on the first series when his laziness caused a turnover on downs? I’m hoping Sark lit into Mitchell and embarrassed him in front of the entire team. 

Helm fucked up, not Mitchel.

[DixonHur 11226]

10 minutes ago, Longhornlove said:

Helm fucked up, not Mitchel.

Not sure how you came away with that impression.  

Upon a rewatch, it looks like Helm is supposed to account for the blitzing LB and Mitchel is supposed to block the safety coming off the edge, but he completely wiffs allowing the safety to hit Brooks in the backfield.

[Codaxx 5602]

13 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Not sure how you came away with that impression.  

Upon a rewatch, it looks like Helm is supposed to account for the blitzing LB and Mitchel is supposed to block the safety coming off the edge, but he completely wiffs allowing the safety to hit Brooks in the backfield.

The guy is aligned inside of Mitchell. He is not going to be able to make that block. There needed to be a call there or tighten up the splits

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Codaxx

[DixonHur 11226]

1 minute ago, Codaxx said:

The guy is aligned inside of Mitchell. He is not going to be able to make that block. There needed to be a call there. 

 

He absolutely could have made the block.  Clearly he was supposed to crash down, and that's exactly what he did, but he missed.  

Check it out at about the 3:08 mark.

 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

Mitchell should have done a lot more on that play, but I’m not sure why we’re running out of a tight formation with WRs in the game on 4 and 1.  Having players in the game who are poor blockers, and not lining them up wide enough to take their defender out of the play, but still leaving just enough gap for their defender to get inside leverage on them, is pretty much the worst formation possible for a short yardage run.  There is a reason most jumbo formations don’t have slot WRs as part of the plan.

It’s not like someone needed to stone the guy coming off the edge to allow the play to work, though. If either Helm or Mitchell just acts as a speed bump, it’s first and 10.

[LTtxfan 48979]

6 minutes ago, Codaxx said:

The guy is aligned inside of Mitchell. He is not going to be able to make that block. There needed to be a call there or tighten up the splits

 

Yeah, Coach Erwin said AD was not to blame on that play...

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

1 minute ago, Doc Daneeka said:

It’s not like someone needed to stone the guy coming off the edge to allow the play to work, though. If either Helm or Mitchell just acts as a speed bump, it’s first and 10.

Mitchell literally did bump him. Dude shot gap, Helm blew assignment. 
 

Helm picks up the guy who shoots gap like he should and Mitchel works to either the safety or corner it’s an easy first down and potentially bigger play in a 1 on 1 situations with brooks/defender. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by BurntOrange&White

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

Mitchell literally did bump him. Dude shot gap, Helm blew assignment. 

That’s not how speed bumps work, though. I’m not privy to what the call was or should have been, so I’m not saying who should’ve had the block. I’m just saying it didn’t need to be a jumbo package to work. 

[dcar00 14035]

1 minute ago, Jiggy-Z said:

Imagine what it will be like with a full 5 working days or after a loss (ducks).

good news is that some of the bitch pie will be taken up by the cowboys and texans losing.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

Yeah, but every play works on the chalkboard if everyone makes their block.   What separates good coaches from the Shawn Watson’s and GD’s of the world is minimizing how things can go wrong.  Like, maybe your WR screen shouldn’t rely on an OT blocking the CB before the pass gets there.

I don’t remember the specifics of the situation — did Texas sub or just go with on-field personnel so Rice couldn’t sub, for example — but, again, even if that’s Mitchell’s block he’s quick enough to slow the guy down and if it’s Helm’s, well, design wasn’t the issue there. 

[Codaxx 5602]

12 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

He absolutely could have made the block.  Clearly he was supposed to crash down, and that's exactly what he did, but he missed.  

Check it out at about the 3:08 mark.

 

I watched it. I will disagree. I think that is Ian Boyd level thinking. It looks like a good plan on a chalk board, but that isnt working in real life. You have a WR trying to reach a defender with leverage. If that is the plan, you will lose 90% of the time. They are called wide receivers for a reason.  A simple call for a chip would have gone a long way. Helm didnt touch a single defender. All he did was push Bank's back when Banks was on the LB. Personally, if Quinn went under center there, nobody is talking about this

Edited September 5, 2023 by Codaxx

[DixonHur 11226]

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Mitchell literally did bump him. Dude shot gap, Helm blew assignment. 

Like Doc, I'm not privy to the actual blocking scheme, but Helm actually blocked someone, AD did not.  If that wasn't AD's man, then who was he supposed to block?

As for him being lined up "inside" AD, watch the video.  If he was inside it wasn't by much.

I'm not dogging on AD, I think he's a great player but that was a terrible effort.  

 

[derpyhorndog 2554]

47 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I’d prefer that Sarkisian either get someone basically to run the sideline as game day head coach or, less optimally, get an OC. 

Holy fuck, time truly is a flat circle jerk.

We've now reached the Sark-era equivalent of "Strong should focus on recruiting and the DC role, get a de-facto HC assistant to handle the rest."

 

[Codaxx 5602]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Like Doc, I'm not privy to the actual blocking scheme, but Helm actually blocked someone, AD did not.  If that wasn't AD's man, then who was he supposed to block?

As for him being lined up "inside" AD, watch the video.  If he was inside it wasn't by much.

I'm not dogging on AD, I think he's a great player but that was a terrible effort.  

 

Helm did not touch a single Rice player. You need to watch it again. Banks plays for Texas

[Longhornlove 4779]

26 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Not sure how you came away with that impression.  

Upon a rewatch, it looks like Helm is supposed to account for the blitzing LB and Mitchel is supposed to block the safety coming off the edge, but he completely wiffs allowing the safety to hit Brooks in the backfield.

I don't really have to answer because several other already have but think of leverage when you go watch the film, frame by frame and watch Helm, not Mitchel, and you will see that Helm is the one that fucked up. It is blatantly obvious when he goes to block the same guy as Banks does then spins back to find his assignment is already behind him.

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

4 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

That’s not how speed bumps work, though. I’m not privy to what the call was or should have been, so I’m not saying who should’ve had the block. I’m just saying it didn’t need to be a jumbo package to work. 

Just before snap

 

Should have been assignments:

 

Gap is show immediately and you can see Mitchell gets a should on him but there is no way he could possibly get in front of him due to alignment of the defender.

 

There is no reason gunner helm should be double teaming this linebacker. The play should be a 1 on 1 with the CB with mitchell working to the safety.

 

 

 

...

[Longhornlove 4779]

If that was AD's assignment they would have been trying to run outside of him with a pulling guard.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

1 minute ago, derpyhorndog said:

Holy fuck, time truly is a flat circle jerk.

We've now reached the Sark-era equivalent of "Strong should focus on recruiting and the DC role, get a de-facto HC assistant to handle the rest."

 

It’s the other side of the “Sarkisian should focus on recruiting and the HC role and get an OC to handle the offense.” One difference is that Strong couldn’t even manage the HC part of game day.

Sarkisian’s strength is his offense, imo. I’d prefer he be the one running it. Other people may feel differently. 

[Hookem2147 20932]

4 minutes ago, derpyhorndog said:

Holy fuck, time truly is a flat circle jerk.

We've now reached the Sark-era equivalent of "Strong should focus on recruiting and the DC role, get a de-facto HC assistant to handle the rest."

 

Those were good times. There were still people at the end who were asking if we could keep him on as some mentor to the players while the new staff does their thing.

[DixonHur 11226]

5 minutes ago, Codaxx said:

Helm did not touch a single Rice player. You need to watch it again. Banks plays for Texas

You're right, just watched again.  I thought he was on the LB, somehow I missed the big fella.

@BurntOrange&White's angles show it a lot clearer.  Sorry AD.

Edited September 5, 2023 by DixonHur

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Like Doc, I'm not privy to the actual blocking scheme, but Helm actually blocked someone, AD did not.  If that wasn't AD's man, then who was he supposed to block?

As for him being lined up "inside" AD, watch the video.  If he was inside it wasn't by much.

I'm not dogging on AD, I think he's a great player but that was a terrible effort.  

 

Helm was in no mans land on that play and just went after someone already blocked.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Just before snap

 

Should have been assignments:

 

Gap is show immediately and you can see Mitchell gets a should on him but there is no way he could possibly get in front of him due to alignment of the defender.

 

There is no reason gunner helm should be double teaming this linebacker. The play should be a 1 on 1 with the CB with mitchell working to the safety.

 

 

 

...

I don’t buy the conclusion that Mitchell isn’t quick enough to beat the guy to a spot to slow him down, which is all that was necessary, but since I don’t know that it was even his responsibility to do it in the first place, I think that horse has been sufficiently beaten. 

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

1 minute ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I don’t buy the conclusion that Mitchell isn’t quick enough to beat the guy to a spot to slow him down, which is all that was necessary, but since I don’t know that it was even his responsibility to do it in the first place, I think that horse has been sufficiently beaten. 

How can you possibly look at those screenshots and see Helm doing absolutely nothing and still blame Mitchell for not making an impossible block on a guy who shot out of a cannon as soon as ball was snapped.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

How can you possibly look at those screenshots and see Helm doing absolutely nothing and still blame Mitchell for not making an impossible block on a guy who shot out of a cannon as soon as ball was snapped.

I fucking specifically said multiple times I don’t know that it was Mitchell’s block to make, so it takes a special level of density to say I’m blaming him for it. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Doc Daneeka

[Fico 1743]

AD need to take one step to the right at the snap and his "block" would have been sufficient. He is back side, and really only has a rule of not letting the end man cross his face. It was a piss poor effort. Helm should have also been able to get a hand on this guy.

The play should be starting left and bending back right between Sanders kickout block and the combo on the right side.

Backside penetration should have never killed this play. Even if AD doesn't make contact and simply steps right at the snap he is literally in the way enough for this play to gain a first down.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Fico

[ChickenNuggets 1611]

Y'all, none of this really should matter leading into the Alabama game.. .Not like we have an interior O-line capable of giving QE time to launch the deep ball... It's going to have to be short to intermediate passing for us to win. Otherwise, we'll be 3 and out and our D will be gassed by halftime.

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

1 minute ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I fucking specifically said multiple times I don’t know that it was Mitchell’s block to make, so it takes special level of density to say I’m blaming him for it. 

Narrator: It wasn't so why continue to blame and point him out when it was quite literally Helm blowing his assignment.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Narrator: It wasn't so why continue to blame and point him out when it was quite literally Helm blowing his assignment.

Where did I blame him once, let alone continue to do so? Be specific. Quote me blaming him. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Doc Daneeka

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

1 minute ago, Fico said:

AD need to take one step to the right at the snap and his "block" would have been sufficient. He is back side, and really only has a rule of not letting the end man cross his face. It was a piss poor effort. Helm should have also been able to get a hand on this guy.

The play should be starting left and bending back right between Sanders kickout block and the combo on the right side.

Backside penetration should have never killed this play. Even if AD does make contact and simply steps right at the snap he is literally in the way enough for this play to gain a first down.

I personally think the design was to the left of the formation where it should have been a 1 on 1 with Brooks and either a corner or safety for an easy first down. You see Brooks helmet looking left here just after handoff but then cuts back in when he sees the defender coming.

 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I'll stop beating the dead horse as well, but if Mitchell is lined up out wide that defender is out of the play by alignment and nobody has to even worry about someone missing a block.

That’s fair. 

[Hookem2147 20932]

11 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Sarkisian’s strength is his offense, imo. I’d prefer he be the one running it. Other people may feel differently. 

We feel similarly. He was hired in large part because of his ability to call plays. While there have been a few questionable performances in each season so far, the overall body of work has been positive and it's been nice to not have to rotate through playcallers every damn year like the previous 10 years before that. 

We are not going to put up 500 yards and 40 points on everyone. We are gonna have a game or two this year where we have to grind out a 24-14 win or some such. Just the way football works. The only offensive playcaller I've seen who rarely has an off game is Lincoln Riley. 

We also have very little insight into how the preparation and gameplanning goes during the week. Is the whole offensive staff on the whiteboard during the week and Sarkisian is just the one who puts together the final call sheet and calls the plays? Does the whole offensive staff pick their nose while Sarkisian breaks down the film, develops the gameplan and calls the plays? Who is talking to him on the headset and what type of input are they having? I have feeling guys like Flood, Milwee and Choice carry a pretty heavy load gameplanning wise during the week. Chryst probably factors into that equation somewhere as well. 

I did find it interesting on the LHN Rewind show last night that he credited the first TD to Brooks to the rest of the offensive staff and said it was something they drew up during the week.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Hookem2147

[Davis Lane 5553]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Now we've come full circle on the debate and back to Sark, keep going....can't wait to hear that this is somehow Becton's fault next.

In a way, you could blame Mack for all this mess.

[gmr548 16516]

The more I think about it the more I think this is a sark problem. 

Of course, he’s billed as a QB developer and the QB appears to have made no progress. He calls the plays and is rigid with his approach as opposed to adapting to what he has.

Similarly on the OL, you had a group of 5 starters, all oh whom played last year and 4 of whom started, that do not appear to have improved at all season to season. It’s one thing to lack physical ability but it’s another to be missing assignments your second or third year in the program. That points to ineffective teaching or stubborn personnel management if they are are electing not to play guys that can execute.

The root issues at QB and OL are coaching.

[Codaxx 5602]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

I'll stop beating the dead horse as well, but if Mitchell is lined up out wide that defender is out of the play by alignment and nobody has to even worry about someone missing a block.

I am not a fan of Mitchell in the box there. I absolutely hate the RB being 7 yards deep.

[gmr548 16516]

How about we stop bitching about play calling against Fucking Rice.  Sark was never concerned about losing this game.  He just called what he wanted to call.  There is still plenty to bitch about but scheme and play calling against Rice isn't one of them.  I think we get a much better feel for how much Sark trusts Ewers and this offense and how he wants to call games this year starting this week.  That is of course if our interior OL gives us a chance to actually run an offense.

I do agree that some of the play calling was clearly viewed as practice. You don’t make that 4th down call on the first series in a game you’re worried about losing. You don’t kick the 56 yard FG your K probably can’t hit if you think you really need the points. Etc etc. my gripes are more with the larger pattern we’ve seen here over two plus years and apparent failure tit each fundamental pass blocking concepts on the OL.

[Royale with cheese 1460]

3 hours ago, gmr548 said:

What, pray tell, gives you the impression this plan will survive any contact with reality whatsoever?

"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth." --Mike Tyson and gmr548

[Hard Times 300]

19 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Just before snap

 

Should have been assignments:

 

Gap is show immediately and you can see Mitchell gets a should on him but there is no way he could possibly get in front of him due to alignment of the defender.

 

There is no reason gunner helm should be double teaming this linebacker. The play should be a 1 on 1 with the CB with mitchell working to the safety.

 

 

 

...

I think  they're both at fault. It may be Helm's man initially, but there's only 2 things Mitchell even can do on that play. 1. Stand there and do nothing. 2. Engage with the LB. What he did was a little bit of both. Pictures don't tell the whole story, watch it live or slo-mo. He initially stands there and does nothing but then realizes he needs to block too late. The defender was even with him before he made an attempt to block. If he had the mindset I'm gonna knock that guy on his ass before the ball was snapped he would've been in position to keep the guy out of the backfield. If Banks is quick enough to get out and block that LB, then certainly on of the quickest guys on the team can get in that gap. Look at the first picture. The LB has further to travel than Mitchell.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Hard Times

[Biff Tannen 45497]

3 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Of course, he’s billed as a QB developer and the QB appears to have made no progress. He calls the plays and is rigid with his approach as opposed to adapting to what he has.

Similarly on the OL, you had a group of 5 starters, all oh whom played last year and 4 of whom started, that do not appear to have improved at all season to season. It’s one thing to lack physical ability but it’s another to be missing assignments your second or third year in the program. That points to ineffective teaching or stubborn personnel management if they are are electing not to play guys that can execute.

The root issues at QB and OL are coaching.

I don't disagree necessarily, but none of this makes sense with Sark and Flood's success at Bama.

[Hookem2147 20932]

I guess spending 3 days breaking down a 4th down stop in a game that was over by the 3rd quarter beats the alternative.

[Fico 1743]

On the left side our 1 on 1 is with an extra blocking surface and WR to help. I don't feel like that is a winning combo for us. Additionally, if it was to got to to the left somebody would be combo-ing to that LB #11.... no one is.  And if the play was designed to go left... then AD definitively should have been getting a body on someone (Helm as well).

You can clearly see the gap on the right between Sanders and the Campbell/Jones combo block. Brook's first steps create a left flow creating angles for the combo block(s) and an angle for the running lane in the C gap on the right side.

 

We wouldn't combo the backside LB and leave the middle guy unblocked.... that is a waste of a body, especially in short yardage.

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

I do agree that some of the play calling was clearly viewed as practice. You don’t make that 4th down call on the first series in a game you’re worried about losing. You don’t kick the 56 yard FG your K probably can’t hit if you think you really need the points. Etc etc. my gripes are more with the larger pattern we’ve seen here over two plus years and apparent failure tit each fundamental pass blocking concepts on the OL.

I was actually surprised that Auburn hit those 40 yarders with ease and he had the distance on the 56 yard field goal just wide left a bit


 

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

2 minutes ago, Fico said:

On the left side our 1 on 1 is with an extra blocking surface and WR to help. I don't feel like that is a winning combo for us. Additionally, if it was to got to to the left somebody would be combo-ing to that LB #11.... no one is.  And if the play was designed to go left... then AD definitively should have been getting a body on someone (Helm as well).

You can clearly see the gap on the right between Sanders and the Campbell/Jones combo block. Brook's first steps create a left flow creating angles for the combo block(s) and an angle for the running lane in the C gap on the right side.

 

We wouldn't combo the backside LB and leave the middle guy unblocked.... that is a waste of a body, especially in short yardage.

That is a combo every coach in america wants, your RB 1 on 1 with a corner or safety in the hole. RB should win that in short yardage everytime unless the safety is Cam Chancelor-esque

[Burt Macklin 18998]

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I don't disagree necessarily, but none of this makes sense with Sark and Flood's success at Bama.

I mean this is just a ridiculous statement. They were only there for two years and inherited an offense almost entirely consisting of 1st and 2nd round guys.  They were coaching one of the most talented offenses in CFB history. Anyone could have had success with that offensive roster they inherited.  Their time at Alabama doesn’t prove they can evaluate, coach and develop. 

[Fico 1743]

But its not as combo every coach in America would want because you would have an unblocked MLB (#11) crashing down

[Longhornlove 4779]

19 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I'll stop beating the dead horse as well, but if Mitchell is lined up out wide that defender is out of the play by alignment and nobody has to even worry about someone missing a block.

Not true, there was another defender to the left of Mitchell. If you look at the video, you will see him. There is a shadow of his in the screenshots.

[dcar00 14035]

unless you know the blocking assignments there is no way to know who is at fault between Helm and Mitchell.

[BurntOrange&White 39661]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

unless you know the blocking assignments there is no way to know who is at fault between Helm and Mitchell.

If a guy is standing around looking then decides to block the backside of his own teammate then it is safe to assume it's that guy.

2 minutes ago, Fico said:

But its not as combo every coach in America would want because you would have an unblocked MLB (#11) crashing down

11 was lost in the wash and not in a position to make a play 

[Codaxx 5602]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

unless you know the blocking assignments there is no way to know who is at fault between Helm and Mitchell.

This play aside, it very apparent that communication is a major problem on the OL currently. Its the 1st game, so a lot can change. It needs to be fixed. 

[dcar00 14035]

2 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

I mean this is just a ridiculous statement. They were only there for two years and inherited an offense almost entirely consisting of 1st and 2nd round guys.  They were coaching one of the most talented offenses in CFB history. Anyone could have had success with that offensive roster they inherited.  Their time at Alabama doesn’t prove they can evaluate, coach and develop. 

This is our concern, dude. 

[Longhornlove 4779]

Banks doesn't need help on a LB in order to leave a safety crashing free into the backfield. It was a missed assignment on Helm plain and simple. I'know that is hard for some to comprehend but it is the truth. You want to bitch about his blocking or lack thereof, fine, look at the screen to Whittington where he completely whiffed, getting Whittington destroyed for a loss.