What to do about a St Augustine lawns in Central TX?

[BillyBadAss 189]

I was watering once a week just to try to give it something, but I'm no longer sure there's a point. I'm not sure it's exactly moral either. Large areas are looking pretty toasted in my yard, and I'm looking for information on what to do next year. 

I personally just have a few goals for the lawn. 
1) have my house not look run down
2) avoid having a mudpit when it rains that the dog tracks in
3) have some ground cover that is short enough to pick up dog poop, not harbor rodents or snakes, etc. 
4) not have a ton of weeds to deal with

I assume some areas of the St Augustine will come back next Spring, but assume large areas won't with this heat/drought. Is this a correct assumption? 
What are the options then? 

Can I throw some grass seed for some other species in the Spring in the dead areas and expect it to come up and fill in? Would that take a ton of water and care to establish, or is it pretty easy? 

Should I be looking to plant winter rye grass to help combat spring weeds and keep the soil intact? 

Thoughts? 

[Post Oak 20,209]

Neil Sperry said that you want to put pre emergent down once the temps are reliably in the 90s, overnight in the 60s and we have a little rain.  Hopefully that will be soon.

 

Unless you have a shaded yard I'm not sure it's worth it.  They're never going to survive these summers unless we get rain in July and August (not likely) or you dump a wasteful amount of water on them.

We are filling in a lot of old lawn space with native beds.  We'll still have a smaller place for the kids to run and play but it just doesn't make sense to me going forward to fight for a grass that wants to die. 

Try bermuda or one of those hybrid breeds.

 

[animaltobacco11 107]

Following.

We paid extra when we had the house built and forced them to accommodate us to have St Augustine because to us Bermuda is just ugly and chintzy and more allergenic.

That said we have the rain bird set 3x a day to keep it green or else it will fry. Am following this thread to see how I can better manage it; have wasted money on various yard management scams (TruGreen, etc.) and feel like they are worthless.

[deadshank 24,652]

My SA lawn in Houston is toast.   The drought has weakened it to the point that the chinch bugs have really done a number on it and now the sod web worms are moving in.  It is truly remarkable how awful it has become.

SA is the bobwhite quail of lawns.  Very popular, expensive to maintain, requires too much water, fragile, refuses to choke out any other invasive grass and all the predators want to eat it.  
 

SA grass is a big pussy   

I’m going to get rid of mine after a few other projects are completed and the books are balanced.  

Going with zoysia

Pic of weakened and chinch bug  destroyed SA.  

[Post Oak 20,209]

7 hours ago, animaltobacco11 said:

Following.

We paid extra when we had the house built and forced them to accommodate us to have St Augustine because to us Bermuda is just ugly and chintzy and more allergenic.

That said we have the rain bird set 3x a day to keep it green or else it will fry. Am following this thread to see how I can better manage it; have wasted money on various yard management scams (TruGreen, etc.) and feel like they are worthless.

You water 3x a day?  Did you mean to say 3x a week?

[Guest]

My yard had full shade until the last ice storm ripped limbs off trees. This year I'm literally putting a canopy over the open spots and landscaped a front corner and side that get full sun to remove the grass. I started the canopy with the idea of "oh I'll do this during these 105 degree days" since it's so harsh. Then every day turned 105 and it never fucking rained. Still a lot of shade, just not complete coverage anymore. Then I've battled chinch bugs. 

From April until the start of July, it looks good, but then July/August just wreck it because they've been so extreme. I think it we ever had a "normal" summer, it would be relatively fine.

What I want is to plant zoysia where it gets more sun. It seems to blend decently with SA. Problem is that I haven't found an easy spot to get squares of it. Found plugs online, but I want about 10-15 actual pieces that I can plant. If anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.

As for watering, I feel somewhat bad about that. Then I see that my yard is the size of a postage stamp and commercial buildings having sprinklers going at 2 p.m. I also feel the heat coming off dead ground and stressed trees and wonder if watering isn't actually a good thing for keeping the canopy and cooling things down.

[animaltobacco11 107]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

You water 3x a day?  Did you mean to say 3x a week?

3x a week and the grass would be dead. I don’t have HOA or municipal restrictions as I have property that’s unincorporated, technically.

[deadshank 24,652]

59 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

My yard had full shade until the last ice storm ripped limbs off trees. This year I'm literally putting a canopy over the open spots and landscaped a front corner and side that get full sun to remove the grass. I started the canopy with the idea of "oh I'll do this during these 105 degree days" since it's so harsh. Then every day turned 105 and it never fucking rained. Still a lot of shade, just not complete coverage anymore. Then I've battled chinch bugs. 

From April until the start of July, it looks good, but then July/August just wreck it because they've been so extreme. I think it we ever had a "normal" summer, it would be relatively fine.

What I want is to plant zoysia where it gets more sun. It seems to blend decently with SA. Problem is that I haven't found an easy spot to get squares of it. Found plugs online, but I want about 10-15 actual pieces that I can plant. If anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.

As for watering, I feel somewhat bad about that. Then I see that my yard is the size of a postage stamp and commercial buildings having sprinklers going at 2 p.m. I also feel the heat coming off dead ground and stressed trees and wonder if watering isn't actually a good thing for keeping the canopy and cooling things down.

Zoysia is a great solution.  Just laying on zoysia is a waste of money.    Zoysia entry level expense is high because a good amount of prep needs to be done in order for it to take and thrive.   There is a long trail of tears populated by those that “got a great deal” on zoysia because the proper prep was not done.  

[deadshank 24,652]

@cactusflinthead needs to chime in and earn his money. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Zoysia is a great solution.  Just laying on zoysia is a waste of money.    Zoysia entry level expense is high because a good amount of prep needs to be done in order for it to take and thrive.   There is a long trail of tears populated by those that “got a great deal” on zoysia because the proper prep was not done.  

It's what we have in the backyard. I planted plugs in bare spots from last year's drought and they took well. Also have it mixed with SA in a side yard and its really nice and full.

[ATXbronco 4,062]

In Round Rock we have stage 1 watering restrictions that let us water twice a week.
I take full advantage of that and my grass is still "mostly green".
But the Bermuda is thriving while my St Augustine is simply "surviving".  
Which sucks because I'd been trying for years to get the St Augustine to take over.

 

But at least my earth isn't cracking and my house isn't shifting.
I walk my dogs daily and I'm amazed by how many people aren't watering AT ALL.
I see huge inches-deep cracks in their lawns.  I heard a rumor that 7 out of 10 homes are experiencing foundation issues this summer.
In my hood, I believe it!  

Our park down the street has foot-deep cracks in the ground.
I can't even let my dogs run because I'm afraid they'll break an ankle stepping into these large cracks.

 

This summer has taught me that Soaker Hoses should be given out like Obama phones!
And that soaker hoses are freaking fragile little pieces of spaghetti.  
Once you put the soaker hose down, do NOT move it around, ever.
These damn things spring leaks when you breathe on them too hard!

Especially the foam-looking ones. 
This one is slightly more durable but I'm having to warrantee these too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RDQZ7M2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

[ATXbronco 4,062]

I'm still needing to mow once or twice a week.  I mow as tall as possible to provide shade for the ground.

 

Those little farmers over at Texas A&M have a good article on St. Augustine lawn care:
http://publications.tamu.edu/TURF_LANDSCAPE/PUB_turf_Maintaining St. Augustine Grass Lawns.pdf

 

Btw, a tip I read is that that we shouldn't use any weed killer on our lawns until temps settle down.

I've noticed that even weeds are dying on other peoples dried-out lawns.  
I've got a few weeds popping up in mine though.

I hardcore struggle with Goose Grass thanks to the previous home owners lack of lawn care.
This shit is like the cockroach of lawns.  It never dies or goes away.

[Post Oak 20,209]

50 minutes ago, animaltobacco11 said:

3x a week and the grass would be dead. I don’t have HOA or municipal restrictions as I have property that’s unincorporated, technically.

Everything I've read says to water deeply over a longer time than short bursts.  That builds resilience and root depth.  Watering during the day is no bueno because more than half of the water evaporates before it gets a chance to soak in deeply.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do but you're trying to keep alive something that wants to die while wasting a ton of water and probably causing you a bit of stress. 

I think you might find some benefit with top dressing your lawn and aerating (if you haven't tried that already) to build the soil.

Aeration gets water and oxygen to the roots and breaks up the ground. 

Top dressing adds organic matter to your soil.  If youre like most of us and don't have good soil to grow in you're fighting with one arm behind your back. 

Per every 1% of organic matter you develop in your soil, your water holding capacity goes up.

So say you have an acre of land and with top dressing your able to add just 1 % of organic matter in a rain event that you get 1 inch of rain your soil gains the ability to hold thousands and thousand gallons of water. 

I've seen studies that show 16k gallons of water per inch per acre and some that say only few thousand.  Some people claim up to 20k gallons.  Not sure what's right but the point is improving your soil is paramount.

Here's a MSU study

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/compost_increases_the_water_holding_capacity_of_droughty_soils#:~:text=Water holding capacity of soil,down to one foot deep.

 

Good luck

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Ok. I think I have enough brain function to get going.

St. A is like bobwhite quail? Yeah, I'll agree with that.

 Last winter was not great for a lot of turf. It warmed up enough to make it break dormancy and then WHAM freeze. The initial green up is using last year's stored carbos. If it uses all on the first green up and then gets hammered by cold it will suffer. Sometimes it fucks off and dies. I saw a lot of that this spring. Bermudagrass too. Big ass swathes deader than hell. For no goddamn apparent reason. Was it sick going into fall? Did it wake up early and get a frozen brick to the head? Dunno, but we have planted a bunch of zoysia this season.

If it's super duper shady even zoysia will get kinda thin. I have to go to fescue under big live oaks. It's about the same water requirement as the rest if it's in the shade. It is going to require multiple reseeding to get a good stand.

On watering.

I water the turf maybe once a week. I've got bermudagrass at the house. Soak the shit out of it for a day or so and then let it run until I can see it is dry again. StA shows dryness very obviously. It loses its gloss. But, before that stage it starts to lose turgor pressure. If you can step on it and it doesn't spring back up readily then it's time. Again water heavily and make it use it. Top dressing with organic matter helps with the water holding capacity as well as giving the fert bonding sites. That's not as crucial in a heavy clay, but it's damn sure important in the sandy ones. Top dressing in clay helps with the compaction and in some cases can act as a disease suppressor. (Peat moss for TARR). 

If there's a foolproof recipe for diseases in turf I'd love to see it. It's start flinging bullets and hope one or more hits. The aggy flyer on TARR(take all root rot) has a list of half a dozen options. Because they don't know what works best either.

I went to a turf day last year at the Ag extension farm/office at Coit and Campbell in Richardson. Heard a prof say TARR isn't really a big deal.

Oh really. Well, maybe stop trying to get it to replicate results in a lab and go out in the field and take a fucking look around.

It's been a fucking brutal summer. We're slow rolling the fall apps. If it's stressed out or the irrigation is questionable it's going to get to wait until that infernal fat ass high pressure goes away. If it's holding up it's going to get the regular treatment. I would wait until I can't stand it anymore on StA. Just hit it with some post stuff and do it gently. Lower rates, do it at dusk so it's going to be dry and absorbed by the next day.

Give stuff a good feed if it starts acting like a normal fall. I don't care what you use. Get some carbos stored up for next year. Maybe fling a little more peat moss or compost. 

Good luck.

Oh yeah. King Ranch is a good supplier. They are in the bigger metro areas. And some smaller ones.

https://krturfgrass.com/

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,509]

Not Central texas but Houston. I've been experimenting with buffalo grass this summer in a few isolated areas in my yard. Grown from seed and not sod. I've been fairly happy with the experiment so far.  It did require a decent amount of watering for the first 3-4 weeks but now I water it for about 30 minutes every 10 days or so. I wouldn't say it's thriving but its green and continuing to grow.  In fact I need to mow it this weekend not that you have to mow it.

One issue that I do see is that there can be problems with weeds and buffalo grass. You also have to be careful with weed sprays so you don't kill the wanted grass.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Nice Guy Eddie

[TXLNGHRN10 341]

Like said above water longer and less frequently
If you have a sprinkler system, set them to run early in the morning, like 3-4ish 
I have bermuda, which is more draught tolerant then StA, but I run mine 1 day a week. Each zone 20 minutes, 6 zones. Then I run the cycle 3 times. 3:30, 5:30, 7:30. For the most part that prevents run off and 90% of my yard is surviving with out extra watering. 
I would think if you could do something like that twice a week your StA would be surviving.
 

[kmac30 416]

I put zoysia down in my backyard last year. Aside from a fungus I didn’t catch early enough, it’s pretty solid. The area with the fungus was large but I finally caught on and have been treating. It should fill in over the next month. My front yard is SA and I’m over it. We’re about to move and I e been looking at options for new house. Yard is SA that is infested with spurge. Thinking of killing it all and starting over with zoysia.

My only zoysia complaint is that I went with a hybrid due to shade areas and dogs. You have to plug it or put down new sod. No seed. I’d like to have a yard I can seed to thicken.

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

If you know you have issues with disease think prevention. Hit it going into dormancy and coming out of it. The damage gets done when we are getting rain. But, we see it when it's stressed from the heat. The yellowing and thinning out are because it's got a shitty root system. It's not getting nutrition so it turns yellow. I saw a KState paper from 1943 that called the same thing we call TARR, "the yellows" on Buffalo grass and yes it is susceptible to it as well. They noted that more fertilizer and water did not help. It was nearly 50 more years before a prof at Auburn figured out the causal agent. 

The same genus that causes sudden death of pansies, periwinkles, and about 2500 other species was the causal agent for the Potato Famine. 

It's really a poorly understood part of our world. We're working on it, but there's no funding like what we have for diseases in other places. But, I don't think anyone expects that level of investment. A few more dollars sure would help though.

[texasdago 7,569]

We're in SW Austin... we don't have a ton of SA because our yard is mostly xeriscaped so most of our property out front is beds and paths with decomposed granite, regular beds, etc.  Tried to make my yard as water-wise as possible.  Have good shade cover too on our SA is on the east side of the house so it catches a break in the afternoon.  Back yard is all beds and DG so not grass whatsoever.  For the front, we can only water 1x a week so I just give it a good soak and keep it long.  I'd say 80% of our SA is hanging in there.  Haven't mowed in maybe 2-3 months... its not as long as you think but at least it keeps the roots shaded.

[Post Oak 20,209]

1 hour ago, kmac30 said:

I put zoysia down in my backyard last year. Aside from a fungus I didn’t catch early enough, it’s pretty solid. The area with the fungus was large but I finally caught on and have been treating. It should fill in over the next month. My front yard is SA and I’m over it. We’re about to move and I e been looking at options for new house. Yard is SA that is infested with spurge. Thinking of killing it all and starting over with zoysia.

My only zoysia complaint is that I went with a hybrid due to shade areas and dogs. You have to plug it or put down new sod. No seed. I’d like to have a yard I can seed to thicken.

What kind of Zoysia.  Is you're yard shaded or sunny?

[horn4life 3,759]

I decided to let the front yard completely go.  It's brown, brown, brown.  The only thing I am really glad about is that I did not spring for a sprinkler system to where I would feel obligated to keep it going.  I have pretty much decided to expand my large flower beds off the house exponentially, and create a xeriscape heat wave survivor section next to the curb. My plan is to buy some buffalo grass for there will be a green river-like strip between the beds, for a pop of green.

I was going to do it last weekend to stretch the rental of the backhoe and front loader over the long weekend.  But now that I cannot water new plantings more than once a week, need to wait a little while to do it when there is least some hope of rain, or COA water access.

 

[Texzilla58 4,732]

Agree with the water deep and rarely crew. Grass lives in its roots not by the turf. The deeper you water the further the roots will reach. 1x heavy saturation per week is better than daily small waterings as that makes short roots. Watering in the heat of the day is a waste of water and steams the turf. Leave it be:

[Post Oak 20,209]

1 hour ago, horn4life said:

I decided to let the front yard completely go.  It's brown, brown, brown.  The only thing I am really glad about is that I did not spring for a sprinkler system to where I would feel obligated to keep it going.  I have pretty much decided to expand my large flower beds off the house exponentially, and create a xeriscape heat wave survivor section next to the curb. My plan is to buy some buffalo grass for there will be a green river-like strip between the beds, for a pop of green.

I was going to do it last weekend to stretch the rental of the backhoe and front loader over the long weekend.  But now that I cannot water new plantings more than once a week, need to wait a little while to do it when there is least some hope of rain, or COA water access.

 

Our same plan for our front. It's an eye sore now but we have a plan.

[BillyBadAss 189]

In my front yard I'll likely try to xeriscape any areas that don't come back, extend beds, etc. 

But in the back I have some areas that I'm anticipating might not come back, that get pretty full sun, but I do still want grass there. 

I'm reading here Zoysia takes careful prep to get it to take. Would Bermuda take from seed easily with less prep work? 

Will I be making a mistake trying to mix St Augustine with some other species like this? 

[Catpfish 618]

When I built my house about 8-9 years ago, I had my sprinkler system designed by a irrigation specialist (some on the board will know whom I'm talking about).  Instead of spray heads, we went with MP rotators because they are more water efficient.  They spray larger droplets so less wind and evaporation loss.  The drawback is that they don't put out the volume of water that the spray heads do.  I think they run about 0.4" per hour.  I've also upgraded the controller a couple of times to the most advanced available.  It factors in soil absorption capacity, type of plant, evaporation rates etc., and then cycles through the zones to prevent runoff and maximize absorption.  I think I'm the most efficient I can be with hybrid bermuda (TexTurf 10).  That said, we are limited to watering once a week and my system will run 9 hours through 13 zones, so the grass is surviving in areas and struggling in others as my ground is heavy clay.  We also installed a flow meter a couple of months ago and the system runs through right at 4,500 gallons each week

The other thing that we did, and I would recommend this to anyone that is building or putting a sprinkler system in, is to install a drip irrigation system for the slab.  When the system was installed, a trench was dug 2 feet deep and about 12 to 18 inches out from the slab.  One drip line was laid in the trench and then a foot of soil was added.  A second drip line was added with a soil sensor, so that the slab is automatically watered whenever the minimum moisture baseline is reached.  Right now, the slab is being watered twice a week for an hour each time (about 380 gallons each time).  We are on some of the worst clay in the Central Texas area and, so far (knock on wood), we haven't had any issues and we have monster cracks outside of the "good grass" area with some that are 3-4 inches across and who knows how deep.

All of that said, the shitastic private water company that supplies the water can't provide the volume to run the sprinkler system (it can take 80 seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket with the faucet wide open, so around 4 gallons a minute).  I've had to install a 2,500 gallon tank with a water pressure activated pump to get the sprinkler system to work.  So if you are outside of city water supply, make sure you are aware of both the pressure and volume that the water provider actually supplies and the effect that can have on your system.

[Catpfish 618]

1 hour ago, BillyBadAss said:

Would Bermuda take from seed easily with less prep work? 

If you are wanting some of the more drought resistant hybrid strains, you'll have to go with sodding as they grow from runners, not seeds.

[deadshank 24,652]

4 hours ago, Post Oak said:

What kind of Zoysia.  Is your yard shaded or sunny?

Looking at emerald or zorro.  
 

Mostly unshaded.  Shade on west side only which is a narrow side street swath.   Zoysia needs a lot of sun from what I’ve read. 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

For the ones converting turf to beds, strong survivors in mine have had a couple of surprise contenders, notably thyme. I didn't think it was going to survive much less actively spread, but it's doing great. The rosemary is doing well too, but it gets the funk when we get a wet period. It's kinda raggedy now after snowmaggeddon but it's still got enough green for me to keep it. The gray leaf dianthus has actually spread and reseeded. It also prefers hot and dry. It's right on the curb so it's not getting any relief at all.

https://www.greatgardenplants.com/products/firewitch-dianthus

 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Another thing that I remembered. 

The last few years I have been adding rooting hormones to my tank mix for flower installs. I expanded that to remedial mixes for diseases, of any root rot types or any newly planted stuff that is showing stress. It's been a good addition. 

We've been selling it for years to retail shoppers. It's not unusual to see a nursery either try to get a quart of it on your cart or flat out give it to you in hopes you actually use it. It's been a part of the install process for years, but nobody seemed to be recommending it in remedial apps. I was talking shop with a vendor and he suggested it. 

I buy it by the case now.

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lawn-and-garden/gardening/plant-food/7296254

Old school root stimulator

Yes, the jokes practically write themselves.

[horn4life 3,759]

17 hours ago, Post Oak said:

Our same plan for our front. It's an eye sore now but we have a plan.

I just came up with a new  temporary "plan." Maybe I take my giant brown lawn...  and If we manage to beat Alabama... Paint a giant Longhorn in my front yard.  

The ultimate reverse humblebrag, brown ass lawn, with big ass Longhorn...

[kmac30 416]

What kind of Zoysia.  Is you're yard shaded or sunny?

Zeon. Part of my yard is heavy shade, part is heavy sun, and part is a good mix. I have 1 big dog and 1 medium. Medium is a mini Aussie and she has her trails she hits every time she’s outside. The SA couldn’t keep up. Zoysia hasn’t been a problem. Only problem is their urine.

[deadshank 24,652]

4 hours ago, kmac30 said:

Zeon. Part of my yard is heavy shade, part is heavy sun, and part is a good mix. I have 1 big dog and 1 medium. Medium is a mini Aussie and she has her trails she hits every time she’s outside. The SA couldn’t keep up. Zoysia hasn’t been a problem. Only problem is their urine.

We are on a corner lot. With a fire hydrant.   Seems the corner of my lawn is the Buc-ee’s piss stop for the entire neighborhood.  Other than cost, dog urine is the only draw back regarding zoysia. 

[gyroprotagonist 2,592]

wasn't there a poster that had a 'water retention' product or something?  Am i making that up?  think it was called hydretain or somesuch.

I had hell keeping my backyard SA lawn healthy.  put down Palisades Zoysia (aggy developed) and it has been great for my yard with varying level of shade/sun.  

[wood 11,225]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:41 AM, Post Oak said:

Everything I've read says to water deeply over a longer time than short bursts.  That builds resilience and root depth.  Watering during the day is no bueno because more than half of the water evaporates before it gets a chance to soak in deeply.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do but you're trying to keep alive something that wants to die while wasting a ton of water and probably causing you a bit of stress. 

I think you might find some benefit with top dressing your lawn and aerating (if you haven't tried that already) to build the soil.

Aeration gets water and oxygen to the roots and breaks up the ground. 

Top dressing adds organic matter to your soil.  If youre like most of us and don't have good soil to grow in you're fighting with one arm behind your back. 

Per every 1% of organic matter you develop in your soil, your water holding capacity goes up.

So say you have an acre of land and with top dressing your able to add just 1 % of organic matter in a rain event that you get 1 inch of rain your soil gains the ability to hold thousands and thousand gallons of water. 

I've seen studies that show 16k gallons of water per inch per acre and some that say only few thousand.  Some people claim up to 20k gallons.  Not sure what's right but the point is improving your soil is paramount.

Here's a MSU study

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/compost_increases_the_water_holding_capacity_of_droughty_soils#:~:text=Water holding capacity of soil,down to one foot deep.

 

Good luck

This. Water it deeper & less frequently, and cut it long. I schedule a watering night be split into two full cycles to reduce water running off down the street and increase absorption. If I want, for example, 10 minutes total per zone, I do zones 1-9 for 5 minutes each, then repeat the whole thing. I'm watering 2x a week and the only problems I'm having are in the spots with very few hours of shade to no shade at all.

Another thing that I've found has helped a ton this year is adjusting my sprinklers to make sure the water is being distributed as evenly as possible. I had my sprinkler system built 20 years ago, so what was left after we built the pool last year needed some work after 20 years of yard work, adding dirt, sodding here and there, women & kids in cars running over the sprinkler by the driveway, etc. We had to replace the back yard sprinkler, so that needed a lot of tweaking as well. This crazy heat has made it obvious exactly where the sprinklers needed work - where there was too little water, too much water, or it was just right. I'm not surly 1%, so I did most of that shit myself. It's a pita, and dirty work, but it's really paid off.

Edited September 12, 2023 by wood

[wood 11,225]

OBTW, after we built the pool and had to re-landscape my completely destroyed back yard, I went with SA Palmetto because it's supposed to best the best all-around SA for handling both shade and sun. Haven't been disappointed in the least. It's crushing my old Raleigh SA in the same conditions. 

Also, any of y'all use Sunday Lawn products? I've been using them for about 18 months now and over that period this is the healthiest my lawn has looked overall in 22 years living here.

[wood 11,225]

On 9/8/2023 at 12:52 PM, cactusflinthead said:

If you know you have issues with disease think prevention. Hit it going into dormancy and coming out of it. The damage gets done when we are getting rain. But, we see it when it's stressed from the heat. The yellowing and thinning out are because it's got a shitty root system. It's not getting nutrition so it turns yellow. I saw a KState paper from 1943 that called the same thing we call TARR, "the yellows" on Buffalo grass and yes it is susceptible to it as well. They noted that more fertilizer and water did not help. It was nearly 50 more years before a prof at Auburn figured out the causal agent. 

The same genus that causes sudden death of pansies, periwinkles, and about 2500 other species was the causal agent for the Potato Famine. 

It's really a poorly understood part of our world. We're working on it, but there's no funding like what we have for diseases in other places. But, I don't think anyone expects that level of investment. A few more dollars sure would help though.

What would you say is causing this? My shaded areas are doing great. This is only in the 2 areas of my yard with pretty much full sun most or all of the day, so I figured the sun was just burning it out. Could it be something else, like bugs, worms, disease, etc? SW Austin. Thanks in advance!

 

thumbnail (1).jfif thumbnail.jfif

Edited September 12, 2023 by wood

[wood 11,225]

@cactusflinthead

My bad. Got dammit.

[NoName 16,351]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:24 PM, gyroprotagonist said:

wasn't there a poster that had a 'water retention' product or something?  Am i making that up?  think it was called hydretain or somesuch.

I had hell keeping my backyard SA lawn healthy.  put down Palisades Zoysia (aggy developed) and it has been great for my yard with varying level of shade/sun.  

if you want to go down a real rabbit hole look at wetting agents. i'm tired of fucking around and am going to actually get a pellet pro applicator gun for next year and use some actual products that are. big picture some "MOVE" water (ex: penterra) and some "HOLD" water (ex: tournament ready), go down some rabbit holes over at the lawn forum to get some additional info

hydretain is fine. nothing "wrong" with it but just don't expect amazing results. hit it early and then re-apply way more often than it says. it says to apply once then again every 90 days and i'm at about every 45 days on the high end right now. apply it early in the season and keep doing it. i noticed positive changes in my specific dry spots and that was great news for me.

just don't expect it to solve all your issues and stick with the liquid vs granular application of it.

1 hour ago, wood said:

cut it long.

i have tried for a couple of years to explain this to my neighbor. guy finally does it this year and his grass looks AWESOME. granted, he's retired but he mows it at least 2x a week at a higher level and it's really filled in vs prior years.

LET YOUR ST. AUG GROW LONG!

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

1 hour ago, wood said:

@cactusflinthead

My bad. Got dammit.

Without getting a close up look for symptoms I am calling it TARR. Gray leaf spot has a distinctive diamond shaped lesion on the midrib of the blade. Both can be damaging. With TARR I am looking for dead roots and brown lesion like areas at the nodes. Regrowing it is a process. Step one after treatment is that it stops getting worse. If you can see some runners start to extend after that it's on the mend. 

I spent the last couple of days in meetings and talking shop at a convention. There's a lot of discussion about what we've called probiotics in humans, but we are just now seeing a wider acceptance of the concept in the Ag/hort world. Again the research is kinda sparse. In your case I am gonna hit it with a broad spectrum fungicide and follow up with a root stimulator and mild fert to see if I can get it going. After the initial apps I might switch over to peat moss. A little aeration with a plain old garden fork will help get it down in the soil. It's not necessary for the fungicide, but I like getting the remedial top dressing past the turf layer and into the dirt. A solid tine aeration isn't optimal, but it's better than nothing. You don't have to sink it to the hilt. A couple of inches is plenty. Core aeration is preferable, but at this stage I don't know if you want to go to the expense until you see some sort of response. I would definitely hold off on the pre at least in that area and perhaps the rest too until it starts going to sleep. A little post here and there should be fine.

[wood 11,225]

53 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Without getting a close up look for symptoms I am calling it TARR. Gray leaf spot has a distinctive diamond shaped lesion on the midrib of the blade. Both can be damaging. With TARR I am looking for dead roots and brown lesion like areas at the nodes. Regrowing it is a process. Step one after treatment is that it stops getting worse. If you can see some runners start to extend after that it's on the mend. 

I spent the last couple of days in meetings and talking shop at a convention. There's a lot of discussion about what we've called probiotics in humans, but we are just now seeing a wider acceptance of the concept in the Ag/hort world. Again the research is kinda sparse. In your case I am gonna hit it with a broad spectrum fungicide and follow up with a root stimulator and mild fert to see if I can get it going. After the initial apps I might switch over to peat moss. A little aeration with a plain old garden fork will help get it down in the soil. It's not necessary for the fungicide, but I like getting the remedial top dressing past the turf layer and into the dirt. A solid tine aeration isn't optimal, but it's better than nothing. You don't have to sink it to the hilt. A couple of inches is plenty. Core aeration is preferable, but at this stage I don't know if you want to go to the expense until you see some sort of response. I would definitely hold off on the pre at least in that area and perhaps the rest too until it starts going to sleep. A little post here and there should be fine.

Thanks brother! That's what I was afraid of. Appreciate the help and all of your good info here!

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Don't congratulate me yet. I'd like to see some runners get a move on. 

It's like @deadshank said. StA is a little bird that gets sick if the wind changes.

[wood 11,225]

2 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Don't congratulate me yet. I'd like to see some runners get a move on. 

It's like @deadshank said. StA is a little bird that gets sick if the wind changes.

Yeah it's definitely an adventure. I just went back out to look at it with what you said in mind. That biggest patch is really grey in the middle and more light brown/yellow just dead looking as you go toward the edges. Pull a leaf and it's grey/black, darker as you go toward the base.

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

5 minutes ago, wood said:

Yeah it's definitely an adventure. I just went back out to look at it with what you said in mind. That biggest patch is really grey in the middle and more light brown/yellow just dead looking as you go toward the edges. Pull a leaf and it's grey/black, darker as you go toward the base.

Give me some close up shots. 

 

This is gray leaf spot 

 

 

And this is TARR.

It's turning yellow because it's roots are going. No roots, no nutrients, no water.

Edited September 12, 2023 by cactusflinthead

[wood 11,225]

Will do. Gimme a few minutes.

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

I saw a holly bush picture today that Kevin Ong brought. It was literally 2 branches. One dead and the other was green. It was reflected in the roots. One half was whitish and the other side was obviously dead and brown as dirt. It's a different causal agent but similar symptoms. It used to all get lumped together as root rot. I can't imagine the feeling of helplessness seeing my subsistence crop of potatoes dying and rotting. Old Testament days it was a blight. 

A few thousand years later and we are still trying to figure out why it's dying and praying over it. 

[wood 11,225]

@cactusflinthead

 

Heree you can see the grey in the middle that I was talking about before.

Edited September 13, 2023 by wood

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

There's no gray leaf spots. I don't like the fact it has those brown tips. 

I think I may have called this disease TARR. YAY A NEW ONE.

job security

 

Nigrospora Stolon Rot

 

Richard L. Duble, Turfgrass Specialist
Texas Cooperative Extension
Text and images copyright © Richard Duble.

A relatively new disease of St. Augustinegrass, Nigrospora stolon rot, has resulted in serious deterioration of St. Augustinegrass. The disease appears to girdle the stolon (stem or runner) of St. Augustinegrass and deprive the stolon of water and nutrients. Leaves and stolons appear to be under severe moisture stress and soon become totally desiccated.

The disease has been especially severe during dry spring and summer months. High temperatures and drought conditions favor development of stolon rot in St. Augustinegrass. Symptoms of the disease include dark brown lesions on stolons. As conditions favor the fungus, the lesions enlarge and eventually girdle the stolon. The girdling of the stolon stops the movement of water and nutrients to the leaves. The leaves soon wilt, turn yellow and die. New growth on the terminal end of diseased stolons is typically thin and yellow reflecting a limited supply of nutrients to the growing point. Overall symptoms are similar to those caused by chinch bugs on St. Augustinegrass.

Laboratory observations of stolons from diseased areas may show the presence of Nigrospora as well as Curvularia. Both fungal organisms are weak pathogens and usually only attack plants under stress. Environmental conditions such as unusually low winter temperatures, extreme drought and extremely high temperatures during spring and summer contribute to the occurrence of stolon rot. Providing adequate moisture, raising the mowing height and two applications of Daconil 2787 at 8 oz. per 1,000 sq. ft. at 14- to 21-day intervals has provided good control of the disease. Looking for the official turfgrass site? Click here

 

I'm sticking with the original rec. Some kind of fungicide.

 

I'm getting wilder about trying out stuff. I wouldn't be opposed to trying the woo woo recipes of Listerine. The risk on getting wild is there's a chance it could be too strong for the plants. 

I guess I should mention that if you do feel you have nuked something with too much juice the remedial treatment is carbon. Same principle as charcoal slurry or pills for us and the critters. 

Consan 20 is another old school one. You can get it off the shelf at some hardware or nurseries. It's a soap. I think it's 2tsp per gallon. A pint lasts for a long while 

[Nueces River Rat 5,538]

On 9/8/2023 at 6:09 AM, deadshank said:

My SA lawn in Houston is toast.   The drought has weakened it to the point that the chinch bugs have really done a number on it and now the sod web worms are moving in.  It is truly remarkable how awful it has become.

SA is the bobwhite quail of lawns.  Very popular, expensive to maintain, requires too much water, fragile, refuses to choke out any other invasive grass and all the predators want to eat it.  
 

SA grass is a big pussy   

I’m going to get rid of mine after a few other projects are completed and the books are balanced.  

Going with zoysia

Pic of weakened and chinch bug  destroyed SA.  

I have a section of my front yard that looks identical to this.  The rains for the Tropical Storm we had in mid August came too late.    Once a week watering with city water is no bueno during a drought.    You really need the stuff from the sky to promote healthy growth.  I had to replant most of back yard a few years ago thanks to fungus and with with Floratam.  It does better, but it was beginning  to take a lick before we got that good rain in August 
 

Having said that, why St Augustine or it’s cousin Floratam continues to be the go to grass for landscapes in Texas is beyond comprehension. The shit requires a lot of water and we are scrapping the barrel now with water resources thanks to extended droughts and population growth.  
 

Grasses like Zoyisa need to be used more .

[wood 11,225]

54 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

There's no gray leaf spots. I don't like the fact it has those brown tips. 

I think I may have called this disease TARR. YAY A NEW ONE.

job security

 

Nigrospora Stolon Rot

 

Richard L. Duble, Turfgrass Specialist
Texas Cooperative Extension
Text and images copyright © Richard Duble.

A relatively new disease of St. Augustinegrass, Nigrospora stolon rot, has resulted in serious deterioration of St. Augustinegrass. The disease appears to girdle the stolon (stem or runner) of St. Augustinegrass and deprive the stolon of water and nutrients. Leaves and stolons appear to be under severe moisture stress and soon become totally desiccated.

The disease has been especially severe during dry spring and summer months. High temperatures and drought conditions favor development of stolon rot in St. Augustinegrass. Symptoms of the disease include dark brown lesions on stolons. As conditions favor the fungus, the lesions enlarge and eventually girdle the stolon. The girdling of the stolon stops the movement of water and nutrients to the leaves. The leaves soon wilt, turn yellow and die. New growth on the terminal end of diseased stolons is typically thin and yellow reflecting a limited supply of nutrients to the growing point. Overall symptoms are similar to those caused by chinch bugs on St. Augustinegrass.

Laboratory observations of stolons from diseased areas may show the presence of Nigrospora as well as Curvularia. Both fungal organisms are weak pathogens and usually only attack plants under stress. Environmental conditions such as unusually low winter temperatures, extreme drought and extremely high temperatures during spring and summer contribute to the occurrence of stolon rot. Providing adequate moisture, raising the mowing height and two applications of Daconil 2787 at 8 oz. per 1,000 sq. ft. at 14- to 21-day intervals has provided good control of the disease. Looking for the official turfgrass site? Click here

 

I'm sticking with the original rec. Some kind of fungicide.

 

I'm getting wilder about trying out stuff. I wouldn't be opposed to trying the woo woo recipes of Listerine. The risk on getting wild is there's a chance it could be too strong for the plants. 

I guess I should mention that if you do feel you have nuked something with too much juice the remedial treatment is carbon. Same principle as charcoal slurry or pills for us and the critters. 

Consan 20 is another old school one. You can get it off the shelf at some hardware or nurseries. It's a soap. I think it's 2tsp per gallon. A pint lasts for a long while 

Thanks for going out of your way on this. Very helpful! Makes sense, because it didn't appear until it started hitting 100+ every day, which made me think it was just getting 'burnt up'.

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

To a certain extent it is burning up though we might be throwing lots of supplemental irrigation at it. Its roots might be compromised. The stolons could be plugged up. It can rot from the top down and the leaves themselves stop functioning properly. 

Sometimes I think it's looking for a reason to get sick.