UAW Strike / Absurd Executive Compensation discussion

[Chewbacca 7727]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

I'm happy when people are paid what they are worth.  Why do I dislike unions?  I work for a union shop. Our management, of course, is not union. 

I can only speak to heavy highway, PLCA, and welders unions, but almost to the rule the union employees are lazier, hilariously entitled, and overall just fucking dickheads. They don't care about your company (leave you in a bind in an instant) or its success, they don't care about their quality of work because it's an act of congress to be replaced, and in general are the types of people that NEED someone to make sure they have a good job because they'd never survive on their own merits.   There was a time and a place for them, we are long past that. 

The BA's spend ALOT of energy trying to take money out of my pocket, damage the equity I have in my company, and generally make my life worse.  Turnabout is no longer fair play?  I would and now rely on my men to return that favor with fervor.  Afterall, you live by the agreement, you die by the agreement. 

So we'll continue to pay 100k for a well equipped pickup truck, and some guy with a GED will get 135/hr to push a button so a robot can move it down the assembly line.  And we will like it because if they didn't have that given to them, I can only assume these fucking leaches would be on welfare, taking their blood from there. 

You think most non-union employees care about the company's success?  Why would they?  It's not their company.  All they care about most of the time is that their paychecks clear.  

[Doc Sam Beckett 5781]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

experienced this a ton.  extremely frustrating when you need to get shit done right, on time, on budget.

LOL.  IBEW gets the hospital and school work because of political connections.  There are some absolute donkeys in the IBEW, just like any other organization.  The quality of the shop is way more important than if they do or do not use IBEW electricians.

You mean there are both good and bad electricians in both union and non-union shops?? No shit. I have family in both, I've worked in both, and union shops are better and it's not even close. 

Lol political connections, Jesus Christ. What does that even mean? I wonder what political connections landed the IBEW the nuclear power plant in Georgia? Or maybe they are just better

 

[Biff Tannen 45477]

I love when incredulity's favorite topic comes up.

[Bullneck 18976]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

experienced this a ton.  extremely frustrating when you need to get shit done right, on time, on budget.

LOL.  IBEW gets the hospital and school work because of political connections.  There are some absolute donkeys in the IBEW, just like any other organization.  The quality of the shop is way more important than if they do or do not use IBEW electricians.

There's a reason most Manhattan buildings are built with union labor.

Oh, wait: here's one that wasn't:

Quote

The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

432 Park, one of the wealthiest addresses in the world, faces some significant design problems, and other luxury high-rises may share its fate.

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Resident complaints at 432 Park, once the tallest residential building in the world, and a symbol of the luxury condo boom of the last decade, are revealing strife inside one of the city’s most secretive and exclusive towers.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

 

 

By Stefanos Chen

Published Feb. 3, 2021Updated Sept. 23, 2021

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Open this article in the New York Times Audio app on iOS.

The nearly 1,400-foot tower at 432 Park Avenue, briefly the tallest residential building in the world, was the pinnacle of New York’s luxury condo boom half a decade ago, fueled largely by foreign buyers seeking discretion and big returns.

Six years later, residents of the exclusive tower are now at odds with the developers, and each other, making clear that even multimillion-dollar price tags do not guarantee problem-free living. The claims include millions of dollars of water damage from plumbing and mechanical issues; frequent elevator malfunctions; and walls that creak like the galley of a ship — all of which may be connected to the building’s main selling point: its immense height, according to homeowners, engineers and documents obtained by The New York Times.

Less than a decade after a spate of record-breaking condo towers reached new heights in New York, the first reports of defects and complaints are beginning to emerge, raising concerns that some of the construction methods and materials used have not lived up to the engineering breakthroughs that only recently enabled 1,000-foot-high trophy apartments. Engineers privy to some of the disputes say many of the same issues are occurring quietly in other new towers.

 

 

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The tower at 432 Park Avenue, far left, became the tallest residential building in the world in 2015. It has already been surpassed by a newcomer on New York’s Billionaire’s Row in Midtown Manhattan, but it remains one of the most expensive apartment buildings in the world.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

 

 

The disputes at 432 Park also highlight a rarely seen view of New York’s so-called Billionaire’s Row, a stretch of supertall towers near Central Park that redefined the city skyline, and where the identities of virtually all the buyers were concealed by shell companies.

 

 

The building, a slender tower that critics have likened to a middle finger because of its contentious height, is mostly sold out, with a projected value of $3.1 billion. The 96th floor penthouse at the top of the building sold in 2016 for nearly $88 million to a company representing the Saudi retail magnate Fawaz Alhokair. Jennifer Lopez and Alex Rodriguez bought a 4,000-square-foot apartment there for $15.3 million in 2018, and sold about a year later.

 

 

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The tower at 432 Park attracted some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world, nearly all of whom bought through shell companies to conceal their identities. Jennifer Lopez and Alex Rodriguez bought an apartment in the building in 2018 but sold soon after.Credit...Frazer Harrison/Getty Images

 

 

Now, correspondence between residents, some of the richest and most influential people in the world, reveal thorny arguments over how to remedy the problems without tanking property values.

“I was convinced it would be the best building in New York,” said Sarina Abramovich, one of the earliest residents of 432 Park. “They’re still billing it as God’s gift to the world, and it’s not.”

 

 

CIM Group, one of the developers, said in a statement that the building “is a successfully designed, constructed and virtually sold-out project,” and that they are “working collaboratively” with the condo board, which was run by the developers until January when residents were elected and took control. (Developers typically control condo boards in the first few years of operation.) “Like all new construction, there were maintenance and close-out items during that period,” they said. Macklowe Properties, the other developer, declined to comment.

The construction manager, Lendlease, said in a statement that they “have been in contact” with the developers, “regarding some comments from tenants, which we are currently evaluating.”

Ms. Abramovich and her husband, Mikhail, retired business owners who worked in the oil and gas business, bought a high-floor, 3,500-square-foot apartment at the tower for nearly $17 million in 2016, to have a secondary home near their adult children.

She was disappointed with her purchase on Day 1, she said, when she left her home in London in early 2016 to move into what she expected to be a completed apartment, and found that both her unit and the building were still under construction.

 

“They put me in a freight elevator surrounded by steel plates and plywood, with a hard-hat operator,” she said. “That’s how I went up to my hoity-toity apartment before closing.”

 

 

Problems escalated from there, she said. There have been a number of floods in the building, including two leaks in November 2018 that the general manager of the building, Len Czarnecki, acknowledged in emails to residents. The first leak, on Nov. 22, was caused by a “blown” flange, a ribbed collar that connects piping, around a high-pressure water feed on the 60th floor. Four days later, a “water line failure” on the 74th floor caused water to enter elevator shafts, removing two of the four residential elevators from service for weeks.

Both events occurred on mechanical floors that have been criticized for being excessively tall — a design feature that allowed the developers to build higher than would otherwise have been permitted, because mechanical floors do not count against the building’s allowable size.

Reached by phone, Mr. Czarnecki said he was “not at liberty to comment.”

After the first incident, water seeped into Ms. Abramovich’s apartment several floors below the leak, causing an estimated $500,000 in damage, she said.

Others have made similar claims. The anonymous buyer of unit 84B cited a “catastrophic water flood” that caused major damage to the 83rd to 86th floors in 2016 as grounds to back out of the deal. The would-be buyer, who was in contract for a $46.25 million apartment, was a member of the Beckmann family, the owners of the Jose Cuervo tequila brand, according to sources familiar with the suit. The case was settled quietly the next year.

Many of the mechanical issues cited at 432 Park are occurring at other supertall residential towers, according to several engineers who have worked on the buildings.

 

 

All buildings sway in the wind, but at exceptional heights, those forces are stronger. A management email explained that “a high-wind condition” stopped an elevator and caused a resident to be “entrapped” on the evening of Oct. 31, 2019, for an hour and 25 minutes. Wind sway can cause the cables in the elevator shaft to slap around and lead to slowdowns or shutdowns, according to an engineer who asked not to be named, because he has worked on other towers in New York with similar issues.

One of the most common complaints in supertall buildings is noise, said Luke Leung, a director at the architectural firm Skidmore, Owings and Merrill. He has heard metal partitions between walls groan as buildings sway, and the ghostly whistle of rushing air in doorways and elevator shafts.

Residents at 432 Park complained of creaking, banging and clicking noises in their apartments, and a trash chute “that sounds like a bomb” when garbage is tossed, according to notes from a 2019 owners’ meeting.

Problems at the building were coupled with significant new expenses. Annual common charges jumped nearly 40 percent in 2019, according to management emails that cited rising insurance premiums and repairs, among other costs.

Eduard Slinin, a resident who was elected to the condo board late last year, wrote a letter to neighbors in 2020 reporting that the building’s insurance costs had increased 300 percent in two years. The insurance hike was partly because of a sprinkler discharge and two “water related incidents” in 2018 that cost the building about $9.7 million in covered losses, according to a letter from the residential board of managers.

 

 

Some residents also railed against surging fees at the building’s private restaurant, overseen by the Michelin-star chef Shaun Hergatt. When the building opened in late 2015, homeowners were required to spend $1,200 a year on the service; in 2021, that requirement jumps to $15,000, despite limited hours of operation because of the pandemic. And breakfast is no longer free.

The residents, many of whom live elsewhere most of the year, have splintered into groups. In a letter to fellow residents, Mr. Slinin, the president of Corporate Transportation Group, said he was working with about 40 “concerned unit owners,” out of about 103 units, not including staff apartments, to rein in costs and address possibly dangerous conditions in the building.

The group commissioned SBI Consultants, an engineering firm, to study mechanical and structural issues. Initial findings showed that 73 percent of mechanical, electrical and plumbing components observed failed to conform with the developers’ drawings, and that almost a quarter “presented actual life safety issues,” Mr. Slinin wrote.

SBI did not respond to email or calls for comment. Mr. Slinin, in a phone call, subsequently downplayed the SBI findings, saying that the mechanical issues “were minor things.”

Residents have been divided on how to address the building’s problems. Jacqueline Finkelstein-Lebow, the principal of JSF Capital, a real estate investment firm, and a homeowner who recently won a seat on the board, called other residents’ attempts to “lawyer up” against the developers misguided, in a letter to residents. She also denied claims that she might have a conflict of interest in running for the board. She is married to Bennett Lebow, the chairman of Vector Group, a holding company that controls Douglas Elliman Real Estate — the brokerage that led sales at 432 Park. Howard Lorber, the executive chairman of Douglas Elliman, is also a resident.

 

 

 

Image

 

Howard Lorber, a resident of the tower and the executive chairman of Douglas Elliman, the real estate brokerage that led sales at the building.Credit...James Estrin/The New York Times

 

 

Ms. Finkelstein-Lebow did not respond to requests for comment.

The tension in the building has been simmering for years, Ms. Abramovich said.

“Everybody hates each other here,” she said, but, for the most part, residents want to keep the squabbling out of the public eye.

But Ms. Abramovich, who, because of Covid-19 travel restrictions, has been living at 432 Park full time, said she wasn’t worried that resale value might suffer, because she didn’t buy the unit to flip for profit. For refusing to cover the recent increase in common charges, she said she faces $82,000 in late fees and interest — more than twice the median household income in the Bronx.

She’s aware that the plight of billionaires won’t garner much sympathy, but says she is speaking out on principle.

 

 

“Everything here was camouflage,” she said. “If I knew then what I know now, I would have never bought.”

 

[Biff Tannen 45477]

47 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

There's a reason most Manhattan buildings are built with union labor.

Oh, wait: here's one that wasn't:

 

That is the most terrifying looking building in person.  How does it stay up?  It's like a damn toothpick.

[Nivek 16808]

There should be murders in that building.  

[mchookem 16095]

fuck.that.building. 😳

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

You think most non-union employees care about the company's success?  Why would they?  It's not their company.  All they care about most of the time is that their paychecks clear.  

My survey says they’d rather get a bonus at the end than to pay a group 2 op to turn on the hydrant, along with his buddy that’s required to turn the hydrant off.  #chicagolocaloperators 

[Chewbacca 7727]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

My survey says they’d rather get a bonus at the end than to pay a group 2 op to turn on the hydrant, along with his buddy that’s required to turn the hydrant off.  #chicagolocaloperators 

You're moving the goalposts.  I own a business with a lot of employees, none of whom belong to a union.  They don't give a shit about my company, and nor should they.  I pay them and they do work.  That's the extent of the relationship.

[fattyflattie 4636]

2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

You're moving the goalposts.  I own a business with a lot of employees, none of whom belong to a union.  They don't give a shit about my company, and nor should they.  I pay them and they do work.  That's the extent of the relationship.

Do they care if you are able to stay in business, or not?  Have work on the books? I would assume so, but maybe not.  The difference is your employees likely don’t leave at the end of each project, then return as it suits them.  So I would say, yes, they do give more of a shit. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by fattyflattie

[Incredulity 11532]

3 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I love when incredulity's favorite topic comes up.

[gyroprotagonist 2591]

6 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I'm happy when people are paid what they are worth.  Why do I dislike unions?  I work for a union shop. Our management, of course, is not union. 

I can only speak to heavy highway, PLCA, and welders unions, but almost to the rule the union employees are lazier, hilariously entitled, and overall just fucking dickheads. They don't care about your company (leave you in a bind in an instant) or its success, they don't care about their quality of work because it's an act of congress to be replaced, and in general are the types of people that NEED someone to make sure they have a good job because they'd never survive on their own merits.   There was a time and a place for them, we are long past that. 

The BA's spend ALOT of energy trying to take money out of my pocket, damage the equity I have in my company, and generally make my life worse.  Turnabout is no longer fair play?  I would and now rely on my men to return that favor with fervor.  Afterall, you live by the agreement, you die by the agreement. 

So we'll continue to pay 100k for a well equipped pickup truck, and some guy with a GED will get 135/hr to push a button so a robot can move it down the assembly line.  And we will like it because if they didn't have that given to them, I can only assume these fucking leaches would be on welfare, taking their blood from there. 

answered my question, thanks

[StassneyHorn 6534]

Unions take on contracts. They leave when job is done. Groundbreaking stuff here.

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

23 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Insane. Wish a non-union manufacture would make a decent (or any) 1-ton.  Paying uneducated button pushers $100+/hr. Amazing.  

 

23 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Fuck them. My absolute favorite thing is laying those lazy motherfuckers off at the end of each project. Hit the hall, fucking leaches. 

 

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I do. I used to bill out for a lot more than that, but no mas. Now I babysit guys that babysit fuckstick union hands for a living.  

 

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I work for a union shop. I see it as up close as you can get. 

The market works. Show me a bad union and I’ll show you bad management. Always and forever joined, 100% overlap. 
Sounds like you have a bad union. Truly, I mean no offense and I understand it’s not easy. I’m not letting them off the hook, but if you haven’t managed to solve for a win-win, that’s exactly as much on you as them. 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[Chewbacca 7727]

Do they care if you are able to stay in business, or not?  Have work on the books? I would assume so, but maybe not.  The difference is your employees likely don’t leave at the end of each project, then return as it suits them.  So I would say, yes, they do give more of a shit. 

All they care about is that the checks clear. Why would they care if they make me more money?

And yes, many do leave at the end of projects and then come back if we have more work for them.

But keep telling me what I don't know.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

 

 

Show me a bad union and I’ll show you bad management. Always and forever joined, 100% overlap. 
Sounds like you have a bad union. Truly, I mean no offense and I understand it’s not easy. I’m not letting them off the hook, but if you haven’t managed to solve for a win-win, that’s exactly as much on you as them.

 

I deal with unions all over the country, some are better than others. It’s the locals that give us the most issues, not as much my travelers. But 100% of the guys we get for fraud are our book carrying guys.  We’ll eventually acquire someone and split it up.  Just a game of cat and mouse and the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. 

3 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

But keep telling me what I don't know.

Irony? Or you’re an expert in union labor too? 

[Chewbacca 7727]

Irony? Or you’re an expert in union labor too? 

You seem to think non union employees would care more about your business than union employees do. You're wrong. None of them care.

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Irony? Or you’re an expert in union labor too? 

You seem to think non union employees would care more about your business than union employees do. You're wrong. None of them care.

We can agree to disagree, I suppose.  My experience is obviously different than yours, all while literally working alongside and managing both groups daily.

[Bullneck 18976]

37 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

The market works. Show me a bad union and I’ll show you bad management. Always and forever joined, 100% overlap. 
Sounds like you have a bad union. Truly, I mean no offense and I understand it’s not easy. I’m not letting them off the hook, but if you haven’t managed to solve for a win-win, that’s exactly as much on you as them. 

"You get the unions you deserve."

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

11 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Just a game of cat and mouse and the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. 

sure, but that's a two way street.

We've somehow come to accept that it is not only good and proper but essential to the efficient function of a labor market that aggregations of global capital can negotiate at the individual level with benchmarking and visibility across the labor pool, but when labor comes together to negotiate for individuals with the same level of leverage and visibility, we suspect their motives or view it as an attempt to get over. I reject that view.  
 

[Incredulity 11532]

5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

sure, but that's a two way street.

We've somehow come to accept that it is not only good and proper but essential to the efficient function of a labor market that aggregations of global capital can negotiate at the individual level with benchmarking and visibility across the labor pool, but when labor comes together to negotiate for individuals with the same level of leverage and visibility, we suspect their motives or view it as an attempt to get over. I reject that view.  
 

To be clear my complaints with unions are not the compensation they can extract from an employer, its the rubber meets the road issues with work rules, seniority... that lead to general fuckery with getting shit done. 

 

Yes, there are and historically have been real assholes as employers/management and I do agree that is definitely a root cause of the poor management = poor union cause/effect you lay out above.  I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that, "no employee cares about the company".  I have definitely experience both cultures and the culture that is mutual beneficial is so much better.  And I'm not talking about unlimited time off, ping pong in the break room, brainwashing trips to Cabo.....

[Nivek 16808]

19 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

They don't care about your company (leave you in a bind in an instant) or its success, they don't care about their quality of work because it's an act of congress to be replaced, and in general are the types of people that NEED someone to make sure they have a good job because they'd never survive on their own merits.   There was a time and a place for them, we are long past that. 

The issue you describe seem to be with equity.   The modern worker you are describing is as indifferent as the employer.   

Also, I do not believe that people don't care about the quality of their work at all.  Most people want to do a good job from my experience, but the extra mile they are willing to go is dependent upon their relationship with the employer and their relationship to the work.  

 

[immamac 42492]

A bunch of backwards brained morons in here think it's the employees job to make the company money. That's the executive and ownerships job - to drive shareholder value and profitability. The workers job is to fucking work. Stupid fucks want everyone to act like they give a shit about the company when the company gives 0 fucks about them. Pride in the work you do and not giving a shit whether the work you do or not adds value to the shareholders or sustainability of the company are not the same thing and you buffoons are equating them.

Don't be like these morons and understand that quality and pride of workmanship is a quality that fewer and fewer possess, but has nothing to do with being bought into the company in it's current or future state of success.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

22 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

To be clear my complaints with unions are not the compensation they can extract from an employer, its the rubber meets the road issues with work rules, seniority... that lead to general fuckery with getting shit done. 

 

Yes, there are and historically have been real assholes as employers/management and I do agree that is definitely a root cause of the poor management = poor union cause/effect you lay out above.  I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that, "no employee cares about the company".  I have definitely experience both cultures and the culture that is mutual beneficial is so much better.  And I'm not talking about unlimited time off, ping pong in the break room, brainwashing trips to Cabo.....

This is a very good post and for the record I agree, and I think you would also agree that it is likewise the same on the other side - as a member of executive management I'm sure we've both been a party to benchmarking, comp negotiations, employee ranking and salary banding exercises that are well described by you as "general fuckery with getting shit done," impaired our ability to get shit done, and had little to nothing to do with maximizing short or long term value for anyone, let alone shareholders. 
It comes down to this- employees that strive to pay people $1 more than it takes to prevent them from quitting suffer the consequences in the form of poor results and labor headaches whether they are union shops or not. I would go so far as to argue that in many cases unions do more to protect bad employers from their own incompetence than they do to protect labor because they prevent slow bleeds. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[fattyflattie 4636]

11 minutes ago, immamac said:

The workers job is to fucking work.

Also, a major difference between the groups. One can be cut loose in a moments notice and puts in effort accordingly. The other knows you don’t want to fuck with a grievance and can’t really cut them loose, and works accordingly.   

I suspect we’ll continue to see more vehicles built in the south, and Mexico, and  we can point and laugh at these motherfuckers that have no one to blame but themselves.  

[wildcat09 29187]

Who knew Mexico didn't have any labor unions?

[Incredulity 11532]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I suspect we’ll continue to see more vehicles built in the south, and Mexico, and  we can point and laugh at these motherfuckers that have no one to blame but themselves.  

Specifically on the auto industry.

If the UAW isn't successful organizing Toyota or Hyundai in the US either Ford or GM goes bye bye.   If the Koreans figure out how to make(in the US) and market a full size truck GM and Ford have BIG fucking problems.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

You're moving the goalposts.  I own a business with a lot of employees, none of whom belong to a union.  They don't give a shit about my company, and nor should they.  I pay them and they do work.  That's the extent of the relationship.

I bet they'd appreciate if your business stays solvent in the near future though.

It doesn't mean they tattoo your company letterhead on their chest, but damn.  Yes most employees do generally want their employer to keep on keeping on.

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Specifically on the auto industry.

If the UAW isn't successful organizing Toyota or Hyundai in the US either Ford or GM goes bye bye.   If the Koreans figure out how to make(in the US) and market a full size truck GM and Ford have BIG fucking problems.

I’m not sure about that.  As someone who requires a 3/4-1ton for real life, I don’t see them being replaced. We’ll just grit our teeth, understand your 100k would probably be 70 without the leaches, vote accordingly, and keep hoping they get theirs. 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Nivek said:

The issue you describe seem to be with equity.   The modern worker you are describing is as indifferent as the employer.   

Also, I do not believe that people don't care about the quality of their work at all.  Most people want to do a good job from my experience, but the extra mile they are willing to go is dependent upon their relationship with the employer and their relationship to the work.  

 

And that is accurate too.  The relationship CAN be mutually beneficial, but in the end, the days of blind loyalty are way fucking past.

[Incredulity 11532]

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

As someone who requires a 3/4-1ton for real life, I don’t see them being replaced.

I would think a 1 ton Toyota would be a killer in the work market.  

Obviously easy to run someone else' business or spew hypotheticals though.

[Incredulity 11532]

9 minutes ago, slorch said:

he days of blind loyalty are way fucking past

Its just nostalgia.  People are people.

[Captainant 27311]

32 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I’m not sure about that.  As someone who requires a 3/4-1ton for real life, I don’t see them being replaced. We’ll just grit our teeth, understand your 100k would probably be 70 without the leaches, vote accordingly, and keep hoping they get theirs. 

It's really funny that you consider the workers building your truck "leaches" but the shareholders getting billions in stock buybacks for producing nothing aren't leeches driving up the cost of your truck.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

It's really funny that you consider the workers building your truck "leaches" but the shareholders getting billions in stock buybacks for producing nothing aren't leeches driving up the cost of your truck.

Well, I’ve owned decent amounts of most of them when it makes sense. Curious you assume that most of their button pushers aren’t shareholders as well. 

[SimonBolivar 10898]

58 minutes ago, slorch said:

  Yes most employees do generally want their employer to keep on keeping on.

I dunno, 3 months severance or some unemployment would be cool.

Edited October 27, 2023 by SimonBolivar

[Captainant 27311]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Well, I’ve owned decent amounts of most of them when it makes sense. Curious you assume that most of their button pushers aren’t shareholders as well. 

well I'm sure that much like most false equivalencies that you and incredulity and the rest of the surly IDW love to trade on - I'm sure they are shareholders in some form or another. But they are not in the same fucking galaxy of holdings as any of the investor class that are being enriched by buybacks. These are workers who get a total comp of <$75k/yr - that's probably less than half the annual stock payout for a director or VP at a big3 automaker. 

 

Just because they're getting slivers of crumbs from the investors doesn't mean they should be happy about it, as much as you'd like them to shut up and know their place

[Biff Tannen 45477]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

Stupid fucks want everyone to act like they give a shit about the company when the company gives 0 fucks about them.

Having just been unceremoniously shoved off from a company that I put in a decade of hard work for, I can vouch for this statement.

[SimonBolivar 10898]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Having just been unceremoniously shoved off from a company that I put in a decade of hard work for, I can vouch for this statement.

Think of how many $$$ of company money is wasted on surfing and posting inane bull on Surly every day. I think we get what we deserve.

[immamac 42492]

If you are not a contract employee there is no incentive to do anything but your job role as formally described in job duties. You will be rewarded with nothing for taking additional responsibility without job change. 

[Chewbacca 7727]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

I bet they'd appreciate if your business stays solvent in the near future though.

It doesn't mean they tattoo your company letterhead on their chest, but damn.  Yes most employees do generally want their employer to keep on keeping on.

Sure, they want the checks to clear.  And we treat them better than our competitors do so we have good employees.  But I have no illusions that they truly care about the company beyond our ability to give them work and pay them for it.  And I have no problem with that.  Why should they?  

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

These are workers who get a total comp of <$75k/yr -

You might want to check out what $136/hr comes to. 

[Biff Tannen 45477]

48 minutes ago, immamac said:

If you are not a contract employee there is no incentive to do anything but your job role as formally described in job duties. You will be rewarded with nothing for taking additional responsibility without job change. 

100% accurate.

[Nivek 16808]

3 hours ago, immamac said:

Don't be like these morons and understand that quality and pride of workmanship is a quality that fewer and fewer possess, but has nothing to do with being bought into the company in it's current or future state of success.  

I think most people want to take pride in the work they do.  But they don't feel safe or are disincentivized to work harder.  It is not like promotions from within are a common place.   20 years ago, I worked for one place and had to quit and interview elsewhere for the company I worked at to give me a promotion I was already worth.    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On top of that the modern hiring of running everything through HR and automated filters, means that you can send out thousands of resumes and get little to no feedback simply because you don't check certain boxes.    A friend of mine at Exxon once told me they wouldn't hire people who were laid off, because they assumed they were bad, regardless of their track record or competency.  They would rather gamble on a person with zero experience and just deal with the churn and ineptitude that came with that for certain positions.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Nivek

[YChang 3430]

I think descriptions such as "pride" is more of an output of an work environment that's in balance of treating employees well, where there's some sense of autonomy, growth, and purpose and still operating efficiently and objective-driven. Seems rare for our larger organizations these days to be in this balance. My mind isn't set on this, but I'm starting to wonder if this equilibrium is even possible once a company exceeds a certain scale. 

[Incredulity 11532]

Just now, YChang said:

My mind isn't set on this, but I'm starting to wonder if this equilibrium is even possible once a company exceeds a certain scale. 

Probably not.

When shit starts getting run by the accountants and lawyers it gets pretty god damn rigid.

[Schulz2.0 28752]

1 hour ago, SimonBolivar said:

Think of how many $$$ of company money is wasted on surfing and posting inane bull on Surly every day. I think we get what we deserve.

[YChang 3430]

Just now, BeardIP said:

I think most organizations strive for what you describe as an ideal state for optimal output of the workforce/labor. Last I heard it was still being taught in business schools at least, under the AMP framework, Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Surprising_Truth_About_What_Motivates_Us

 

Yep, back in grad school (but not MBA) and this was a recentl topic of discussion/study! But sure seems like organizations ssssssssuck at applying this framework though. 

[Covri 6229]

23 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

So we'll continue to pay 100k for a well equipped pickup truck, and some guy with a GED will get 135/hr to push a button so a robot can move it down the assembly line.  And we will like it because if they didn't have that given to them, I can only assume these fucking leaches would be on welfare, taking their blood from there. 

 

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

You might want to check out what $136/hr comes to. 

Damn, Union so good they already got their workers another dollar per hour!

[fattyflattie 4636]

4 minutes ago, Covri said:

Damn, Union so good they already got their workers another dollar per hour!

Debatable. Sounds like they wanted 40% and got 25?   Can’t move those plants to Mexico fast enough. 

[Captainant 27311]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

Debatable. Sounds like they wanted 40% and got 25?   Can’t move those plants to Mexico fast enough. 

inb4 you jump on the next MAGAtexas bandwagon about how MEXICO TURK UR JURRRBS if plants move to MX