Time to let NOLA go?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

Now we’re building underwater levees to slow salt water progression up the Mississippi River. And daily bringing 36 million gallons of fresh water daily at the water treatment sites. And bottles water for residents. Mother Nature doesn’t want that city to exist.

I’m not seriously arguing to abandon New Orleans and its citizens but there is something to be said about letting the environment reclaim a natural balance to some extent.

[elfenix 34,330]

Quote

Jones said it will take approximately 24 days to add to the sill. Once augmented, it will delay saltwater intrusion by 10 to 15 days, he said.

seems like that math doesn't really work. 

[texasdago 7,575]

I've been wondering for a while, as well... it does seem like nature is trying to reclaim that city and unfortunately it is not being run by the Dutch.

[Born to Run 6,569]

This thread can suck my ass.

[MissingInAction 25,122]

The French figured it out 300 years ago. Why the French quarter is the only part of the city that didn't flood during Katrina. 

[BamaATL 16,593]

It's a really big problem with big emotions for the people from there and live there.  After Katrina, like I presume many, in the back of my mind I at least thought to myself that rebuilding may not be a great idea.  Don't get me wrong, I've greatly enjoyed visiting New Orleans, and I think it's unique atmosphere and culture are an important part of our overall cultural landscape.  It's pretty clear that climate and changing conditions are making this potentially unsustainable under current circumstances.  

What it boils down to is what is this worth to us as a society?  I'm of the belief that there is quite literally nothing that can't be done, it's just a matter of what it is going to cost.  Is it possible to provide a long term sustainable solution, certainly yes, the bigger question is it affordable?  Even if it's a massive cost, does that investment reap rewards, not just in the near term over the long haul (not just financially but culturally)?  It's easy to single out a place under obvious threat like this, and in current crisis, but before we all single New Orleans out, we need to consider that there are other places facing enormous challenges when it comes to water, like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Southern California, etc.  Are we simply going to start abandoning all these places, I doubt it.  

To me, it's potentially a precedent setting sort of thing.  If we yield, and leave New Orleans to nature's fate, what are we going to do in the face of other challenges?  We have to be careful as we geo-engineer as there are environmental consequences, but I believe we can do this successfully.  

[Biff Tannen 45,694]

6 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

We need to consider that there are other places facing enormous challenges when it comes to water, like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Southern California, etc.  Are we simply going to start abandoning all these places, I doubt it.  

This is going to be a massive issue in the next decade or so.  Climate change is also going to bring us problems we haven't even imagined yet.  It's going to be a huge test for humanity.  I don't think we will pull it off, at least not without a LOT of death.  

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,912]

I don’t care whether they abandon NOLA or not, but they better not do it before next October because I finally got my daughter tickets to see Taylor Swift and they are for 10/26/24 in NOLA.

[Born to Run 6,569]

I don’t care whether they abandon NOLA or not, but they better not do it before next October because I finally got my daughter tickets to see Taylor Swift and they are for 10/26/24 in NOLA.

If you go with her, bring earplugs. Loudest fucking concert I've ever been to- 80k screaming females the entire time.

[Armybrat 40,854]

Geese, my granddaughter has tickets for that concert too. smh

[Braff Zacklin 13,633]

4 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Geese, my granddaughter has tickets for that concert too. smh

73 seems a bit old for a Taylor Swift concert.

[Brisketexan 105,168]

It's a really big problem with big emotions for the people from there and live there.  After Katrina, like I presume many, in the back of my mind I at least thought to myself that rebuilding may not be a great idea.  Don't get me wrong, I've greatly enjoyed visiting New Orleans, and I think it's unique atmosphere and culture are an important part of our overall cultural landscape.  It's pretty clear that climate and changing conditions are making this potentially unsustainable under current circumstances.  
What it boils down to is what is this worth to us as a society?  I'm of the belief that there is quite literally nothing that can't be done, it's just a matter of what it is going to cost.  Is it possible to provide a long term sustainable solution, certainly yes, the bigger question is it affordable?  Even if it's a massive cost, does that investment reap rewards, not just in the near term over the long haul (not just financially but culturally)?  It's easy to single out a place under obvious threat like this, and in current crisis, but before we all single New Orleans out, we need to consider that there are other places facing enormous challenges when it comes to water, like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Southern California, etc.  Are we simply going to start abandoning all these places, I doubt it.  
To me, it's potentially a precedent setting sort of thing.  If we yield, and leave New Orleans to nature's fate, what are we going to do in the face of other challenges?  We have to be careful as we geo-engineer as there are environmental consequences, but I believe we can do this successfully.  

Whatever, you’re fake news. People just think it’s hotter because of more concrete around Camp Mabry. Nothing has changed.

[SubliminalHorn 6,809]

1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

It's a really big problem with big emotions for the people from there and live there.  After Katrina, like I presume many, in the back of my mind I at least thought to myself that rebuilding may not be a great idea.  Don't get me wrong, I've greatly enjoyed visiting New Orleans, and I think it's unique atmosphere and culture are an important part of our overall cultural landscape.  It's pretty clear that climate and changing conditions are making this potentially unsustainable under current circumstances.  

What it boils down to is what is this worth to us as a society?  I'm of the belief that there is quite literally nothing that can't be done, it's just a matter of what it is going to cost.  Is it possible to provide a long term sustainable solution, certainly yes, the bigger question is it affordable?  Even if it's a massive cost, does that investment reap rewards, not just in the near term over the long haul (not just financially but culturally)?  It's easy to single out a place under obvious threat like this, and in current crisis, but before we all single New Orleans out, we need to consider that there are other places facing enormous challenges when it comes to water, like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Southern California, etc.  Are we simply going to start abandoning all these places, I doubt it.  

To me, it's potentially a precedent setting sort of thing.  If we yield, and leave New Orleans to nature's fate, what are we going to do in the face of other challenges?  We have to be careful as we geo-engineer as there are environmental consequences, but I believe we can do this successfully.  

And I feel that this is the crux of the problem, hubris. Mother Nature can, and will, win

[Armybrat 40,854]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Whatever, you’re fake news. People just think it’s hotter because of more concrete around Camp Mabry. Nothing has changed.

Beg to differ….

The additional gazillion decibels from all these loudass concerts are causing the molecules in the atmosphere to rub together faster, creating more friction, thereby generating more heat.

It’s science for sure.

[BrickHorn 18,255]

44 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Geese, my granddaughter has tickets for that concert too. smh

“Talk to me, Geese.” - @Armybrat

[We’reTexas 1,473]

33 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

And I feel that this is the crux of the problem, hubris. Mother Nature can, and will, win

Well, for context, this happens pretty much every year to some extent in Lower Plaquemines. When I was a kid the saltwater went all the way to Kenner in 1988 and there was a barge with freshwater outside the FQ iirc. But that was a few days and this could last longer. So not entirely an issue of the folly of New Orleans’ existence, though that’s definitely a fruitful debate that could go on for hours over beers in the S&WB’s sex dungeon. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by We’reTexas

[Parliament 14,270]

COUNTERPOINT

Do you want a buncha LSU fans moving to Austin? Because they're gonna move SOMEWHERE. 

[Armybrat 40,854]

8 minutes ago, Parliament said:

COUNTERPOINT

Do you want a buncha LSU fans moving to Austin? Because they're gonna move SOMEWHERE. 

Arkansas & Jasper.

[BamaATL 16,593]

35 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

And I feel that this is the crux of the problem, hubris. Mother Nature can, and will, win

I don't believe this is accurate.  Humans have been altering and adapting the landscape to meet our purposes for a long time now, with some level of success, and the truth is we are getting better at it.  Again, this isn't done with environmental consequence, but to say that we incapable of doing this sort of thing simply isn't true.  Belgium is a prime example, and that's been done for hundreds of years now.  Venice is another prime example, it's taken massive investment, but it's been done (one might say that potentially this is only temporary, and you might be right).  NYC has part of it that are also pumped out.  We've created dams, drained lakes (see the southern California issue), built canals, have earthquake and hurricane codes for building, etc.  We know how to desalinate water, it's just incredibly expensive.  

That's not to say that nature isn't incredibly powerful, and humbling, I'm just not of the opinion that is an impossible situation.  Mother nature can win, but to say it's hopeless and isn't within our imagination to come up with solutions isn't true either.  

[Armybrat 40,854]

So how are the Italians’ efforts going to preserve Venice?

Edited September 24, 2023 by Armybrat

[MissingInAction 25,122]

Humans are parasites upon mother earth, and she's getting a fever to get rid of us.

[Surly Bevo 25,084]

I often find myself in awe of Mother Nature and yet confused about how humans refer to it as some separate entity that we are not a part of.....

[MissingInAction 25,122]

Perhaps "cancer" is a better simile.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

8 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

I don't believe this is accurate.  Humans have been altering and adapting the landscape to meet our purposes for a long time now, with some level of success, and the truth is we are getting better at it.  Again, this isn't done with environmental consequence, but to say that we incapable of doing this sort of thing simply isn't true.  Belgium is a prime example, and that's been done for hundreds of years now.  Venice is another prime example, it's taken massive investment, but it's been done (one might say that potentially this is only temporary, and you might be right).  NYC has part of it that are also pumped out.  We've created dams, drained lakes (see the southern California issue), built canals, have earthquake and hurricane codes for building, etc.  We know how to desalinate water, it's just incredibly expensive.  

That's not to say that nature isn't incredibly powerful, and humbling, I'm just not of the opinion that is an impossible situation.  Mother nature can win, but to say it's hopeless and isn't within our imagination to come up with solutions isn't true either.  

It’s hopeless. 

It’s not because mankind couldn’t engineer a sustainable solution. That is not the problem. 

NOLA is shithole swamp full of laissez-faire swamp people. People visit because they like eating gumbo and getting blackout drunk. In no way is this comparable to the Dutch engineering their system of dikes back in the 1200s. If the people of NOLA were the type of go-getters to engineer themselves out of this situation, they would have done so by now. NOLA’s only hope is the Federal Government bails them out.

 

[RDCanecutter 26,455]

President Coolidge came down in a railroad train

With a little fat man with a note pad in his hand

President Coolidge say "Little fat man ain't it a shame"

"What the river has done to this poor cracker's land"

 

[YGIFS 19,452]

37 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

So how are the Italians’ efforts going to preserve Venice?

Well, they're Italians.  So it'll invariably fail due to their hubris and ineptitude.  Many will suffer as a result.  But they'll spend the ensuing decades afterwards bragging about its once great and impervious might.  But do enjoy it while you can, they make a mean Barolo.  

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,912]

1 hour ago, Born to Run said:

2 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

I don’t care whether they abandon NOLA or not, but they better not do it before next October because I finally got my daughter tickets to see Taylor Swift and they are for 10/26/24 in NOLA.

If you go with her, bring earplugs. Loudest fucking concert I've ever been to- 80k screaming females the entire time.

She’ll be at the concert with her cousin.  I’ll be sitting in a bar drinking.

[fattyflattie 4,639]

2 hours ago, Born to Run said:

3 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

I don’t care whether they abandon NOLA or not, but they better not do it before next October because I finally got my daughter tickets to see Taylor Swift and they are for 10/26/24 in NOLA.

If you go with her, bring earplugs. Loudest fucking concert I've ever been to- 80k screaming females the entire time.

And sit low deck/floor.  We had some major Swiftie beef on our row and that bitch felt like Kroger field during Sandstorm.  I made peace that I was going to die at a fucking Taylor Swift concert.  

[gofuckyourself 8,346]

It's never too late for a celebrity fundraiser

[MissingInAction 25,122]

Louisiana can't even maintain federally funded interstate highways due to corruption. NOLA has no fucking chance.

[GopherRock 1,765]

When the Mississippi River busts through the control structure at Old River, it's not going to matter. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

7 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

When the Mississippi River busts through the control structure at Old River, it's not going to matter. 

Is that predicted to occur?

[RDCanecutter 26,455]

12 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

When the Mississippi River busts through the control structure at Old River, it's not going to matter. 

It's what river deltas do, and this one has done before.

I saw a different map where 2,000 years ago the southern 1/4 of Louisiana didn't exist, then different fans of silt spread out and overlapped. Wonder what influence if any that Native American farming had on the silt amount.

 

[Macanudo 12,999]

History is rife with examples of Mother Nature retaking her land.   Some times there was nothing that humanity could do about it (earthquakes, hurricanes) but there are other examples of working to hold back the dismal tide.   The Dutch have obviously reclaimed a shit ton of land from the North Sea and the British have (sort of) tamed the Thames.   But I honestly think that we should stop wasting money trying to shore up/save NOLA.   There are some great historical and cultural reasons to try but economically, what's the point?   

[Beau Vine 54,296]

3 hours ago, Parliament said:

COUNTERPOINT

Do you want a buncha LSU fans moving to Austin? Because they're gonna move SOMEWHERE. 

Please, they'll all move to Houston like the rest of them do.  

[South Austin 52,523]

I’m going to New Orleans for my birthday in December. After that, you can let her go.

[tx 3 putt 77,210]

If Mother Nature wants it, we can’t stop her from taking it 

Edited September 24, 2023 by tx 3 putt

[atomheartbevo 89,750]

3 hours ago, Armybrat said:

So how are the Italians’ efforts going to preserve Venice?

[InkaUtexas 26,012]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

It's what river deltas do, and this one has done before.

I saw a different map where 2,000 years ago the southern 1/4 of Louisiana didn't exist, then different fans of silt spread out and overlapped. Wonder what influence if any that Native American farming had on the silt amount.

 

Rivers move. Who would have thunk it. 

[atomheartbevo 89,750]

4 hours ago, Born to Run said:

5 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

I don’t care whether they abandon NOLA or not, but they better not do it before next October because I finally got my daughter tickets to see Taylor Swift and they are for 10/26/24 in NOLA.

If you go with her, bring earplugs. Loudest fucking concert I've ever been to- 80k screaming females the entire time.

1 hour ago, MissingInAction said:

Louisiana can't even maintain federally funded interstate highways due to corruption. NOLA has no fucking chance.

That state...I'm sure the cops can pull you over a mile or two down the road from a casino where you've been successful, and as long as they confiscate enough "drug money" they'll ignore the screams from the trunk of your car.

[G650 14,270]

I'm no great fan of NOLA so my position it's always if he dies, he dies.

[UpperWestside 6,171]

I have never visited the city, but I have a friend that is raising her family there. I would say it is probably not the best idea to live in an area where a really big river could completely destroy your home, but they love it there. She is from Dallas and he is from Brooklyn. NYC will have the same reckoning with the ocean here at some point, but were I to guess they’ll probably put a giant sea wall around this place in order to save it if it comes to that.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5,796]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

It’s hopeless. 

It’s not because mankind couldn’t engineer a sustainable solution. That is not the problem. 

NOLA is shithole swamp full of laissez-faire swamp people. People visit because they like eating gumbo and getting blackout drunk. In no way is this comparable to the Dutch engineering their system of dikes back in the 1200s. If the people of NOLA were the type of go-getters to engineer themselves out of this situation, they would have done so by now. NOLA’s only hope is the Federal Government bails them out.

 

Deny deny deny climate change, then ask the Federal Government to bail you out? Sounds about right for places like Louisiana. I wonder if you polled their citizens if they think the Federal Government should spend money to shore up NYC against hurricanes that haven't typically been a problem, but are now, what would the results would be? 

[RDCanecutter 26,455]

50 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Rivers move. Who would have thunk it. 

Mark Twain did some interesting writing on the Mississippi. Things I remember are that you couldn't see the river that early explorers saw, because it would have been miles to one side or the other as the channel shifted. Also, in Twain's day a busy river port could turn into a quiet country town almost overnight because the river shifted. It must have been like living next to a wiggly Interstate.

[Brisketexan 105,168]

1 minute ago, RDCanecutter said:

wiggly Interstate

A term that also describes I-10 on the N. side of Houston, vis-a-vis the many female dancing entertainment establishments along said route.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,912]

Last time I looked I10 ran East and West pretty much through the middle of Houston, so I'm not sure that anything on it would be considered north Houston.  Besides none of the good wiggly establishments are on I10 anywhere.

[Gatorubet 30,267]

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

It’s hopeless. 

It’s not because mankind couldn’t engineer a sustainable solution. That is not the problem. 

NOLA is shithole swamp full of laissez-faire swamp people. People visit because they like eating gumbo and getting blackout drunk. In no way is this comparable to the Dutch engineering their system of dikes back in the 1200s. If the people of NOLA were the type of go-getters to engineer themselves out of this situation, they would have done so by now. NOLA’s only hope is the Federal Government bails them out.

 

….. and like, if only the people of Austin were the type of go-getters to engineer themselves out of the situation, Lake Travis would not be so low, and you wouldn’t have a string of an excess of 100° temperatures. They haven’t done so by now, so the only hope is the federal government bail out in Austin. 

[billfromlaketravis 11,520]

New Orleans is a great city. If it dies, they’ll just turn Baton Rouge into some Louisiana version of Southlake. 
 

Original structures, history means something. New Orleans is the most European city in the US and it’s a 5 hour drive from Houston. We all need this. 

[BamaATL 16,593]

So just toying around with numbers on this:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP35380

1.  The annual GDP for the area is  about $82 billion (not a perfect representation because it includes Metarie)

2.  There are 41,000 hotel rooms in New Orleans area (according to Google, not perfect I know)

3.  According to the hospitality industry, right now 65% occupancy is pretty normal 

https://www.ahla.com/news/report-hotels-continue-recover-2023-industry-begins-new-era-operations#:~:text=Average hotel occupancy is expected,from 2.35 million in 2019.

4.  The bond rate for the US government right now is about 4.53% on a 30 year.  

 

So economically does it make sense to invest in the area?  Obviously, this depends on the cost of the improvements, but losing 82 billion in GDP sure isn't great.  I have no idea the amount it would cost to make this sustainable so I arrived at a completely arbitrary number of $100B (I'm sure there are feasibility studies out there).  If my math is correct (a big if), in order to satisfy the bond over the 30 year term for this sort of cost improvement would mean a hotel surcharge of $43.00 per night per room.  Obviously, this is a simplified way to look at it, and the actual financing of such a project would be dramatically more complex (and hotel tax to my knowledge is generally more of a local tax, I just needed reasonable way to demonstrate cost repayment so I used that).  

 

 

 

[Bevo 13,589]

6 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Humans are parasites upon mother earth, and she's getting a fever to get rid of us.

Agent Smith?