Growing rejection of religious traditions by religious adherents

[Lucid 3]

This report (https://archive.fo/nOJxc) on US public opinion concerning gay marriage is a couple months old now but I found it fascinating, particularly this:

Quote

Declining Religious Resistance

Most religious groups in the U.S. now support same-sex marriage, including overwhelming majorities of Unitarians (97%), Buddhists (80%), the religiously unaffiliated (80%), Jewish Americans (77%), and Hindus (75%). Roughly two-thirds of white mainline Protestants (67%), white Catholics (66%), Orthodox Christians (66%), and Hispanic Catholics (65%) also favor same-sex marriage. A slim majority of Muslims (51%) favor same-sex marriage, but only 34% are opposed; 15% offer no opinion on this issue.

Over the last five years, opposition to same-sex marriage among nonwhite Protestants has dropped considerably. Most notably, black Protestants have moved from solid opposition to a plurality of support for same-sex marriage. In 2013, nearly six in ten (57%) black Protestants opposed same-sex marriage.⁴ Today just 43% oppose it, compared to nearly half (48%) who support it. Hispanic Protestants have moved from solid opposition to same-sex marriage to being divided over the policy. In 2013, nearly two-thirds (65%) of Hispanic Protestants opposed same-sex marriage. Today, 43% favor the policy, compared to 45% who oppose it and 13% who offer no opinion.

Opposition to same-sex marriage is now confined to a few of the most conservative Christian religious traditions. Only about one-third (34%) of white evangelical Protestants support same-sex marriage today, while nearly six in ten (58%) are opposed, including 30% who are strongly opposed. And just 40% of Mormons support same-sex marriage, compared to 53% who are opposed. Jehovah’s Witnesses, a racially mixed religious group, are the exception. Just 13% support the policy, compared to 63% who oppose it. However, nearly one-quarter (24%) of Jehovah’s Witnesses express no opinion on this issue.

Nevertheless, even those religious groups most opposed to same-sex marriage have become more accepting of it over the last five years. Since 2013, opposition to same-sex marriage has dropped 13 percentage points among white evangelical Protestants (from 71% in 2013 to 58% today).⁵ Over a similar time period, opposition among Mormons has dropped 15 percentage points (from 68% in 2014 to 53% today).⁶

I'm not surprised that the 10,000 protestant denominations are all over the place about gay marriage. But the widespread support among catholics/orthodox, muslims, and jews is shocking to me. What is happening here? Wtf does it even mean when someone says they are a catholic or a muslim and also that they support same-sex marriage or have no opinion on the issue? Are people becoming more ignorant about their own religions? Or are they just picking out and ignoring the parts that contradict the actual one true faith in America today, namely liberalism?

 

[David Dennison 18658]

2 minutes ago, Lucid said:

This report (https://archive.fo/nOJxc) on US public opinion concerning gay marriage is a couple months old now but I found it fascinating, particularly this:

I'm not surprised that the 10,000 protestant denominations are all over the place about gay marriage. But the widespread support among catholics/orthodox, muslims, and jews is shocking to me. What is happening here? Wtf does it even mean when someone says they are a catholic or a muslim and also that they support same-sex marriage or have no opinion on the issue? Are people becoming more ignorant about their own religions? Or are they just picking out and ignoring the parts that contradict the actual one true faith in America today, namely liberalism?

 

What did Jesus say about gay marriage?

[F250 28689]

Most people probably understand that their religious convictions cannot infringe upon the civil liberties of other Americans.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

14 minutes ago, Lucid said:

This report (https://archive.fo/nOJxc) on US public opinion concerning gay marriage is a couple months old now but I found it fascinating, particularly this:

I'm not surprised that the 10,000 protestant denominations are all over the place about gay marriage. But the widespread support among catholics/orthodox, muslims, and jews is shocking to me. What is happening here? Wtf does it even mean when someone says they are a catholic or a muslim and also that they support same-sex marriage or have no opinion on the issue? Are people becoming more ignorant about their own religions? Or are they just picking out and ignoring the parts that contradict the actual one true faith in America today, namely liberalism?

 

Appears to me that the more people learn and educate themselves, both through literature and real-life experience (read: they meet people they're 'supposed' to hate/shun/persecute/reform), they realize tenets espoused thousands of years ago might not pertain to modern life. I realized that when I was ~18. Some learn earlier, others later. 

 

So, many people will say they believe in god, but that the Bible (or whatever) is just a guideline. To me it's just another indicator that major religion is in decline and that people are finding morality in their communities and not a book written by the only guy who could read and write for 1000 miles many, many, many generations ago.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Longhorn_Fan68

[David Dennison 18658]

The world would be a much better place if Christians just followed the single most important teaching of Jesus of Nazareth: love thy neighbor as thyself.

[longhorndude 146]

What did Jesus say about cheating on your wife and raw dogging a porn star?

[Lagunamadre 1975]

What did Jesus say about rich people? 

[27-25 2040]

2 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

What did Jesus say about rich people? 

God fearing, righteous, prosperity gospel folk just skip over those sections of the Bible falsely translated by pinko commies.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

21 minutes ago, Lucid said:

This report (https://archive.fo/nOJxc) on US public opinion concerning gay marriage is a couple months old now but I found it fascinating, particularly this:

I'm not surprised that the 10,000 protestant denominations are all over the place about gay marriage. But the widespread support among catholics/orthodox, muslims, and jews is shocking to me. What is happening here? Wtf does it even mean when someone says they are a catholic or a muslim and also that they support same-sex marriage or have no opinion on the issue? Are people becoming more ignorant about their own religions? Or are they just picking out and ignoring the parts that contradict the actual one true faith in America today, namely liberalism?

 

What is happening is that people have figured out if the church itself is going to go cafeteria style on what it preaches and ignores, they can too.

Or else, it means that people are calling themselves what they were raised as, even if they don't really practice anymore.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

1 minute ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

What is happening is that people have figured out if the church itself is going to go cafeteria style on what it preaches and ignores, they can too.

Or else, it means that people are calling themselves what they were raised as, even if they don't really practice anymore.  

There's definitely a LOT of that. There's a ton of Christian-in-name-only people out there. Bigly lots.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Longhorn_Fan68

[lemonlime 5503]

Are you suggesting that the way people practice their religion never changes over time?  Christians should live as they did in Jesus' time.  And Jews like it was the B.C. era.  And men and women should be  kept separate, bat mitzvahs can't possibly be considered a thing, and priests should preside over marriages of teenagers.

[formermav43 4599]

3 hours ago, F250 said:

Most people probably understand that their religious convictions cannot infringe upon the civil liberties of other Americans.

 

This is the key.

The question is phrased in terms of allowing same-sex couples to marry legally. That has no connection to whether or not something is regarded as sinful (or, at least, it shouldn’t have). Christians have neither the right nor the obligation to co-opt the state to enforce their principles.

Thabks a lot, Constantine.

Edited July 6, 2018 by formermav43

[Lucid 3]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What did Jesus say about gay marriage?

He says nothing on the subject in the New Testament that I'm aware of. Likely because the very idea was considered nonsensical (or rather not considered at all) in that time and place. And yet through at least the first 1900 years of the Christian tradition marriage was between a man and a woman only and both the Latin and the Eastern Church are completely explicit that this has not changed. How can one be a catholic and also 'support' same-sex marriage, for a catholic the very term is a contradiction

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Lucid said:

He says nothing on the subject in the New Testament that I'm aware of. Likely because the very idea was considered nonsensical (or rather not considered at all) in that time and place. And yet through at least the first 1900 years of the Christian tradition marriage was between a man and a woman only and both the Latin and the Eastern Church are completely explicit that this has not changed. How can one be a catholic and also 'support' same-sex marriage, for a catholic the very term is a contradiction

The same way a Catholic can have sex before marriage. 

Just go to confession. 

No big deal.

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

12 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Appears to me that the more people learn and educate themselves, both through literature and real-life experience (read: they meet people they're 'supposed' to hate/shun/persecute/reform), they realize tenets espoused thousands of years ago might not pertain to modern life. I realized that when I was ~18. Some learn earlier, others later. 

 

So, many people will say they believe in god, but that the Bible (or whatever) is just a guideline. To me it's just another indicator that major religion is in decline and that people are finding morality in their communities and not a book written by the only guy who could read and write for 1000 miles many, many, many generations ago.

It's easy to hate "fags", it's a lot harder to hate Bob from accounting, or Mary and Alice down the street, etc. 

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

3 minutes ago, Lucid said:

He says nothing on the subject in the New Testament that I'm aware of. Likely because the very idea was considered nonsensical (or rather not considered at all) in that time and place. And yet through at least the first 1900 years of the Christian tradition marriage was between a man and a woman only and both the Latin and the Eastern Church are completely explicit that this has not changed. How can one be a catholic and also 'support' same-sex marriage, for a catholic the very term is a contradiction

Lots and lots of Catholics are in favor of having the legal right to an abortion as well, man.  Do you think just because you call yourself a label you are required to 1) believe every single tenet within that label, or 2) that you will perfectly adhere to the rules of that label at all times for the rest of your life?

[David Dennison 18658]

Is this the right thread to discuss the fact that protestants are an example of rejecting religious traditions en masse?

[atomheartbevo 89447]

16 minutes ago, longhorndude said:

What did Jesus say about cheating on your wife and raw dogging a porn star?

Wives.  The word you were looking for is “wives”.

[txhorns 2408]

20 minutes ago, longhorndude said:

What did Jesus say about cheating on your wife and raw dogging a porn star?

Go forth and be plentiful. 

[Lagunamadre 1975]

19 minutes ago, Lucid said:

He says nothing on the subject in the New Testament that I'm aware of. Likely because the very idea was considered nonsensical (or rather not considered at all) in that time and place. And yet through at least the first 1900 years of the Christian tradition marriage was between a man and a woman only and both the Latin and the Eastern Church are completely explicit that this has not changed. How can one be a catholic and also 'support' same-sex marriage, for a catholic the very term is a contradiction

You could say the same about premarital sex, divorce, infidelity, lust, fits of rage, etc. etc. 

I get it that  you think homosexuality is a sin. I'm no religious scholar, but from my memories of Sunday School I thought all humans are sinners. Jesus views all sins as equal, and all people sin. Any sin, big or small, results in the eternal separation from God unless that person prays for forgiveness. 

So while your caught up condemning gays, save some condemnation for the Joel Osteens and Donal Trumps of the world, you know camel through the eye of a needle and all. 

 

[Lucid 3]

Just now, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Do you think just because you call yourself a label you are required to 1) believe every single tenet within that label

When the label is a religion, yes. Most all religions reject relativism. You accept the teachings and traditions or you reject them. Accepting some parts and rejecting other parts is how you wind up with 10,000 protestant denominations

[Lagunamadre 1975]

3 minutes ago, Lucid said:

When the label is a religion, yes. Most all religions reject relativism. You accept the teachings and traditions or you reject them. Accepting some parts and rejecting other parts is how you wind up with 10,000 protestant denominations

Does this dogma extend to the old testament? 

[David Dennison 18658]

5 minutes ago, Lucid said:

When the label is a religion, yes. Most all religions reject relativism. You accept the teachings and traditions or you reject them. Accepting some parts and rejecting other parts is how you wind up with 10,000 protestant denominations

I guess the Jews were right about that Jesus fellow.

[Huckleberry 32702]

8 minutes ago, Lucid said:

When the label is a religion, yes. Most all religions reject relativism. You accept the teachings and traditions or you reject them. Accepting some parts and rejecting other parts is how you wind up with 10,000 protestant denominations

What's the percentage of religious people who believe divorce should be legal? Why are you not complaining about that?

[Lagunamadre 1975]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

What's the percentage of religious people who believe divorce should be legal? Why are you not complaining about that?

Because he's not a closeted divorcee? 

[Lucid 3]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

What's the percentage of religious people who believe divorce should be legal? Why are you not complaining about that?

Because I happened across this article first and because I'm not aware of any religion that says divorce is verboten, even the catholics have their annulment thing

[Huckleberry 32702]

So you're not aware that Jesus said "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."?

Are you one of those Christians who hasn't actually read the Bible?

[formermav43 4599]

Just now, Lucid said:

Because I happened across this article first and because I'm not aware of any religion that says divorce is verboten, even the catholics have their annulment thing

Seriously?

[El Diablo 4232]

46 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Are you suggesting that the way people practice their religion never changes over time?  Christians should live as they did in Jesus' time.  And Jews like it was the B.C. era.  And men and women should be  kept separate, bat mitzvahs can't possibly be considered a thing, and priests should preside over marriages of teenagers.

Went to one of the first bat mitzvahs in my home town in '73. I went to school with the girl, she was the daughter of a local rabbi who also happened to be the religion teacher at the Catholic school we attended. You ain't seen nothing till you've seen a bunch of 13 year old Catholic kids let loose on an endless supply of Mogen David.

[Lucid 3]

3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

So you're not aware that Jesus said "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."?

Are you one of those Christians who hasn't actually read the Bible?

As that very quotation indicates, divorce would not be verboten in the case of sexual immorality

[SimonBolivar 10931]

2 minutes ago, Lucid said:

As that very quotation indicates, divorce would not be verboten in the case of sexual immorality

And I think that Huckleberry's point is that organized Christianity isn't calling a repeal of all divorce that isn't due to sexual immorality. 

[sheeeit 129]

I can only speak to what Catholics currently believe.  I am Catholic.  I think that many of the more ardent evangelicals are the biggest hypocrites I know.  And many are great people with great messages.

But, as to your question, the Catholic church, today, is welcoming of gays and the Pope is on record as saying God made them (gays) that way and he loves them that way and so does the Pope.  On marriage, people just want to play gotcha and twist words and meanings.  The Pope is on record as being supportive of any union between loving people.  The Catholic church does not oppose these unions at all.  People like to make a big deal by saying something to the effect that the Catholic church does not "recognize" gay marriage but that is disingenuous.  It is no different than Jewish marriages or Muslim marriages or Baptist marriages as far as the Catholic church is concerned.  The catholic church does not recognize those marriages either as Catholic marriages but it certainly respects the marriages and unions.  The Catholic church can only "recognize" a marriage between 2 practicing Catholics of opposite sex.  

[formermav43 4599]

Make it easier. Take it out of the realm of sexual ethics.

Strife. Jealousy. Fits of anger. Drunkenness. Envy. Enmity. Rivalries.

All of those (and more!) are listed by Paul as “works of the flesh” in Galatians 5.

So do we need the state to start punishing jealousy and the like?

[Huckleberry 32702]

As that very quotation indicates, divorce would not be verboten in the case of sexual immorality

Your efforts to avoid the point only further confirm your true intent.

Perhaps you should read all of Jesus's words.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

44 minutes ago, Lucid said:

When the label is a religion, yes. Most all religions reject relativism. You accept the teachings and traditions or you reject them. Accepting some parts and rejecting other parts is how you wind up with 10,000 protestant denominations

But there's a term for it, and its called Cafeteria Catholic.  It's not a new concept.

[DanRydell 799]

1 hour ago, Lucid said:

He says nothing on the subject in the New Testament that I'm aware of. Likely because the very idea was considered nonsensical (or rather not considered at all) in that time and place. And yet through at least the first 1900 years of the Christian tradition marriage was between a man and a woman only and both the Latin and the Eastern Church are completely explicit that this has not changed. How can one be a catholic and also 'support' same-sex marriage, for a catholic the very term is a contradiction

One can be Catholic and believe the state and the church should be able to define marriage differently. 

[Apep 645]

40 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I can only speak to what Catholics currently believe.  I am Catholic.  I think that many of the more ardent evangelicals are the biggest hypocrites I know.  And many are great people with great messages.

But, as to your question, the Catholic church, today, is welcoming of gays and the Pope is on record as saying God made them (gays) that way and he loves them that way and so does the Pope.  On marriage, people just want to play gotcha and twist words and meanings.  The Pope is on record as being supportive of any union between loving people.  The Catholic church does not oppose these unions at all.  People like to make a big deal by saying something to the effect that the Catholic church does not "recognize" gay marriage but that is disingenuous.  It is no different than Jewish marriages or Muslim marriages or Baptist marriages as far as the Catholic church is concerned.  The catholic church does not recognize those marriages either as Catholic marriages but it certainly respects the marriages and unions.  The Catholic church can only "recognize" a marriage between 2 practicing Catholics of opposite sex.  

You might want to pick up a copy of the Catechism and the Code of Canon Law. The TL;DR is that the Catholic Church recognizes marriages between two non-Christians as natural marriages. The Church recognizes marriages between two, non-Catholic Christians as sacramental marriages, i.e. the same as a Church wedding between two opposite sex Catholics. Recognition doesn't extend to same-sex unions and polygamous unions.

Moreover, despite misleading press accounts, Pope Francis has explicitly said only a heterosexual couple can form a family.

[TexArcher 37518]

2 hours ago, F250 said:

Most people probably understand that their religious convictions cannot infringe upon the civil liberties of other Americans.

 

Add the word "educated" between "Most" and "people", and that's probably right.  But that is a minority of religious people (as it's a minority of the country as a whole).

I'm not at all sure that most religious people understand that they don't have a legal right to be bigots.  If they do understand it, they choose to work around that inconvenience.

Civil liberties are just a talking point to these people when they think their guns might be taken away or a faggot might want to come in their shop.  They don't give a damn about my atheist civil liberties or someone's gay civil liberties. 

Just try to mind your own business, smoke a joint, play some online poker, then see a hooker for a mutually-agreed-upon service and fee.  You'll get locked up three times in one night, because the Baby Jesus doesn't like those things.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

And yes, it's true, divorce is fine for Catholics, but to get remarried, the marriage must be annulled, and that's a much higher bar than "irreconcilable differences," or whatever.  

[bolverk 29399]

For a dude who calls himself "Lucid," OP doesn't seem very "woke."

[Gatorubet 30105]

6 hours ago, David Dennison said:

What did Jesus say about gay marriage?

"If you seek to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, treat the blacks and browns and poor like shit."

[Mole 4320]

6 hours ago, Lucid said:

When the label is a religion, yes. Most all religions reject relativism. You accept the teachings and traditions or you reject them. Accepting some parts and rejecting other parts is how you wind up with 10,000 protestant denominations

There's some wiggle room in the New Testament for disagreement about teachings. See Romans 14. The question of how far this should extend can be a sticking point.

And after celebrating the 500th anniversary of the reformation, I think this is a wonderful time to discuss breaking with religious traditions.

[Continental Op 3934]

6 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

And yes, it's true, divorce is fine for Catholics, but to get remarried, the marriage must be annulled, and that's a much higher bar than "irreconcilable differences," or whatever.  

So how big of a donation does one have to fork over for that annulment? 

[atomheartbevo 89447]

9 hours ago, lemonlime said:

Are you suggesting that the way people practice their religion never changes over time?  Christians should live as they did in Jesus' time.  And Jews like it was the B.C. era.  And men and women should be  kept separate, bat mitzvahs can't possibly be considered a thing, and priests should preside over marriages of teenagers.

In Texas, you can marry a 14 year-old as long as you have the consent of a parent or legal guardian.

Most states in the US allow you to marry 14/15 year-olds with such permission.

[HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606]

12 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

It's easy to hate "fags", it's a lot harder to hate Bob from accounting, or Mary and Alice down the street, etc. 

I dont like cigarettes anymore and I'm glad I quit blowing them.

Edited July 6, 2018 by HOOK'EMHOOAH

[SubliminalHorn 6674]

Humanity can’t shake off the shackles of religion and superstition soon enough. 

[HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606]

13 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Humanity can’t shake off the shackles of religion and superstition soon enough. 

Agreed. The best bet to accomplish this is via science. However, there are zealots who would mainline their religion if they could.

One of the best ways to illustrate why science is the key is this: If humanity were taken back to the stone age and no records were kept about what was what no religion would be the exact same as it was before said fall of humanity. Science, on the other hand, would be exactly the same as it is because that is how science works. A plane flies because of the lift under its wings, this would be exactly the same, as would chemistry, evolution, physics, and any other aspect of science.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

It would be a lot cooler if people worshiped Science.  

[HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606]

17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It would be a lot cooler if people worshiped Science.  

It would be fuckin easier for people to change their goddamn minds, that's for sure...

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

Glad I don’t have to worry about this bullshit.  I am pretty much agnostic except for fourth and long or two outs runners in scoring position situations.