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San Antonio Spurs '23-'24: Hoops, Hype, Hair Dye

ztejas

By ztejas
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RichUT
RichUT

This one is even better.

Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

The December clouds were as grey as an extinguished fire. The cheers from earlier that night had long since faded as the Spurs completed a painful and unfathomable one win November.  The players and s

Radical Larry
Radical Larry

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Hate

Hate 20103

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Great win. I couldn’t stay awake for it, but I was already happy that had come back to at least make a game of it.

So they play in Phoenix again tomorrow night?? Has that ever happened outside of a playoff series? I can’t recall ever playing the same team twice in a row in the same city.

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Welch

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They’ve done it the last couple of years.  Last year we had two in a row in Minnesota and the Lakers played twice in a row in SA around Thanksgiving.

IIRC it’s related to the league’s efforts to making the schedule more player-friendly, fewer back-to-backs, etc.

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9560

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49 minutes ago, Hate said:

Great win. I couldn’t stay awake for it, but I was already happy that had come back to at least make a game of it.

So they play in Phoenix again tomorrow night?? Has that ever happened outside of a playoff series? I can’t recall ever playing the same team twice in a row in the same city.

I dont know why they dont do it more. Less travel.

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18523

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The home-home schedule thing is something that came out of the pandemic. I think it's cool because it builds up some "familiarity breeds contempt" playoff-ish energy to the regular season. You know Phoenix is going to come out pissed off tomorrow night.

In the last two minutes of the game, and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that's the first time we've seen a lineup with Wemby on the court without either Bassey or Collins. Vogel pulled Nurkic - presumably to match up with this lineup - for the final minute and the Spurs went on a 6 point run to close out the game. I get what Pop is doing trying to protect Victor against the league bruisers, but Wemby is a small ball destroyer. That's how you unlock the dude. Nobody posts up anymore, anyway. And if you do, you're just bringing the world's nastiest rim protector closer to the rim. It's a lot easier to negate his impact on defense if he's stuck in the corner babysitting some 6'6" three and D scrub. On offense, Phoenix isn't going to stick someone like Nurkic 20 feet from the basket to try to stay in front of Wemby. And there's nowhere else to hide him with Jones, Vassell, Sochan and Keldon out there. 

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ztejas

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Didn't watch and saw the score this morning. That's one way to win. Nice to catch Phoenix twice without Booker and Beal. I think they could win again tonight. 

Suns fans mad about Tre hitting KD in the face. What're you gonna do...

I think Keldon's steal was clean. Nice play on the ball from him.

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ztejas

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I will say on Wemby - he seems to be at his best late in games. Which - regardless of anything he's struggling with is a great sign moving forward. 

15 minutes ago, Kermit said:

When are Suns fans not angry? 

 

5 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

The Spurs have made a lot of teams their bitch over the past 25 years, but no franchise has taken it more and in worse ways than the poor Suns.

DBacks got it up the ass last night, too. Tough night.

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chainsaw

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Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal.

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Incidental contact with the hand against an offensive player shall be ignored if it does not affect the player’s speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm.

https://official.nba.com/rule-no-12-fouls-and-penalties/

 

I think the contact between KD and Jones was either (1) after KD had lost the ball or (2) non-actionably incidental as not affecting his speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm.

At the 11 second mark of this video above (6.7s on the game clock), Jones has his feet set after KD receives the inbound pass.

Stepping through in slow motion (using the '.' key on the keyboard) you see Jones' left hand possibly making contact with KD's right arm (not the scratch) while the right hand is all the way up and not making contact with KD at all. Meanwhile KD is swinging the ball around his left side, lowering his shoulder and hips while positioning his right leg between Jones's legs. So far, no foul and no scratch.

At the 12 second mark of the video (5.7s on the game clock), KD has the ball in both hands to the left of his head with his right leg between the legs of Jones and Sochan having backed off behind and to the right of Jones. Meanwhile Keldon Johnson, after having lunged out of bounds in his attempt to intercept the inbounds pass, is approaching from KD's blind side looking to swat the ball with his left hand.

When there's 5.3s left of the game clock there is a possibility that Jones's right hand makes contact with KD's face, although the video is inconclusive. But even if we give KD the benefit of the doubt from that inconclusive video, the rule says to ignore the contact unless the contact affects KD's speed (the full speed video shows no change in KD's speed), quickness (no visible change), balance (KD did not lose his balance), or rhythm (no visible rhythm change, either).

At 5.2s left of game clock KD responds to Jone's attempt to swat the ball by swinging the ball over his head from left to right and towards Keldon Johnson's arms (freeze it at 5.1s left of game clock and watch slowly as it becomes 5.0s). Jones's hands are not making any contact with KD at this point.

By 4.9s it appears to me that Keldon Johnson has already taken the ball from KD, meaning anything Jones may have done afterwards no longer qualified as contact made "by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball." That means the only other way to charge Jones with a foul would have been under the following provision:

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A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, arm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal.

Assuming the contact from Jones (4.5s to 4.4s left on game clock) is what led to the scratch, it was not a "hold" nor a "push" nor a "charging into" nor an "impeding" of KD's "progress" and is therefore, by rule, not a foul.

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18523

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7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

https://official.nba.com/rule-no-12-fouls-and-penalties/

 

I think the contact between KD and Jones was either (1) after KD had lost the ball or (2) non-actionably incidental as not affecting his speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm.

At the 11 second mark of this video above (6.7s on the game clock), Jones has his feet set after KD receives the inbound pass.

Stepping through in slow motion (using the '.' key on the keyboard) you see Jones' left hand possibly making contact with KD's right arm (not the scratch) while the right hand is all the way up and not making contact with KD at all. Meanwhile KD is swinging the ball around his left side, lowering his shoulder and hips while positioning his right leg between Jones's legs. So far, no foul and no scratch.

At the 12 second mark of the video (5.7s on the game clock), KD has the ball in both hands to the left of his head with his right leg between the legs of Jones and Sochan having backed off behind and to the right of Jones. Meanwhile Keldon Johnson, after having lunged out of bounds in his attempt to intercept the inbounds pass, is approaching from KD's blind side looking to swat the ball with his left hand.

When there's 5.3s left of the game clock there is a possibility that Jones's right hand makes contact with KD's face, although the video is inconclusive. But even if we give KD the benefit of the doubt from that inconclusive video, the rule says to ignore the contact unless the contact affects KD's speed (the full speed video shows no change in KD's speed), quickness (no visible change), balance (KD did not lose his balance), or rhythm (no visible rhythm change, either).

At 5.2s left of game clock KD responds to Jone's attempt to swat the ball by swinging the ball over his head from left to right and towards Keldon Johnson's arms (freeze it at 5.1s left of game clock and watch slowly as it becomes 5.0s). Jones's hands are not making any contact with KD at this point.

By 4.9s it appears to me that Keldon Johnson has already taken the ball from KD, meaning anything Jones may have done afterwards no longer qualified as contact made "by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball." That means the only other way to charge Jones with a foul would have been under the following provision:

Assuming the contact from Jones (4.5s to 4.4s left on game clock) is what led to the scratch, it was not a "hold" nor a "push" nor a "charging into" nor an "impeding" of KD's "progress" and is therefore, by rule, not a foul.

Appreciate the Zapruder-like breakdown of this, but at 6.2 seconds left in the game, Jones is basically landing on KD. That's a foul but they let shit happen in the last 30 seconds of NBA games. Durant has been in the league for 100 years, he should know to exaggerate that contact and make the ref blow the whistle.

KD may also want to consider blocking out that 7'4" dude who he lets have a free run at the basket after Vassell's missed three. Phoenix also still had a timeout. Vogel could have used it after Wemby's basket to advance the ball to halfcourt and set up the inbounds. Disregarding the foul non-call, Phoenix completely shot themselves in the dick the last minute of that game. They deserved to lose.

image.thumb.png.ca96479afb19646a660b07739ee82dae.png

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chainsaw

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2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Appreciate the Zapruder-like breakdown of this, but at 6.2 seconds left in the game, Jones is basically landing on KD. That's a foul but they let shit happen in the last 30 seconds of NBA games. Durant has been in the league for 100 years, he should know to exaggerate that contact and make the ref blow the whistle.

KD may also want to consider blocking out that 7'4" dude who he lets have a free run at the basket after Vassell's missed three. Phoenix also still had a timeout. Vogel could have used it after Wemby's basket to advance the ball to halfcourt and set up the inbounds. Disregarding the foul non-call, Phoenix completely shot themselves in the dick the last minute of that game. They deserved to lose.

image.thumb.png.ca96479afb19646a660b07739ee82dae.png

It's true Jones left his feet after having set them at 6.7s on the game clock but I don't agree that he "landed on" KD who hadn't even started his dribble yet. The only contact made was between Jones's left hand and KD's right side (check out the 46-47 second mark of the video for a closer view of the actual contact) which means the hand contact exception applies. When the hand contact doesn't affect speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm the officials are to ignore the hand contact.

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ztejas

ztejas 43262

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Tre hit him in the face before Keldon touched the ball and it obviously affected the play.

It's a foul. But who gives a shit - this isn't the NBA Finals. 

No one's bitching about it anyway outside of Suns fans who complain about everything. KD himself said he should have held on to the ball. 

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chainsaw

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9 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Tre hit him in the face before Keldon touched the ball and it obviously affected the play.

It's a foul. But who gives a shit - this isn't the NBA Finals. 

No one's bitching about it anyway outside of Suns fans who complain about everything. KD himself said he should have held on to the ball. 

The rule says to ignore hand contact, which this is, that doesn't affect the ballhandler's speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm. KD was moving the ball deliberately, without realizing the ball was going right into Keldon's arms. It's not until after he feels that the ball will be lost that he winces and starts complaining to the officials. Maybe it wasn't a flop, but the rule says to look for a relationship between the hand contact and the player's speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm. Technically, the hand contact can cause pain to the ballhandler or even bleeding and not result in a foul if the ballhandler's rhythm (or speed or balance) isn't affected by the hand contact.

Watching at full speed you can't really notice a change in the ballhandler's speed, nor does it look like he lost his balance or rhythm. Jones made a play on a ball that had been over KD's head at the time of the swipe, and defender's fingertip barely grazed the ballhandler's face. If that isn't incidental contact, I don't know what is.

Maybe he was afraid of being whistled for a flop if he tried to exaggerate the contact, but watching in slow motion it does appear that he reacts to the pain by wincing at around the time he brings the ball into Keldon's arms. The rule doesn't really say that a loss of ball control caused by a reduction in hand strength or by a reduction in ballhandler attention is the same thing as a change in speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm.

Judging by this video, it sure looks like KD still would have lost the ball to Keldon even if Jones's fingertip hadn't grazed his face. That's keeping with the spirit of the incidental contact rule, and I like when playoff and high stakes games are called that way. Back in the 80s, it was perfectly legal and commonplace for Bill Laimbeer to crush two or three vertebrae on every play.

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9560

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Probably a foul but whatever. A veteran like KD shoulda seen all that coming. Just hold the ball in a way where when they swipe at you its a guaranteed foul. When he presents it and tries to swing it above his head he opens the door for a strip.

 

I fell asleep for the last 8 minutes. Lucky me. Collins played better. Sochan was a lot better too. Keldon seems to bring some good leadership and direction. For those of you that havent watched much NBA since nephew fucked us, a 20 point lead isnt that much these days. I felt like if we could tread water and not get down 30, we could chip away. It's a great sign from our young team. That said, i definitely expect the Suns to kick our ass tomorrow. They know they got a little lazy and let that one get away.

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9836

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1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said:

Probably a foul but whatever. A veteran like KD shoulda seen all that coming. Just hold the ball in a way where when they swipe at you its a guaranteed foul. When he presents it and tries to swing it above his head he opens the door for a strip.

 

I fell asleep for the last 8 minutes. Lucky me. Collins played better. Sochan was a lot better too. Keldon seems to bring some good leadership and direction. For those of you that havent watched much NBA since nephew fucked us, a 20 point lead isnt that much these days. I felt like if we could tread water and not get down 30, we could chip away. It's a great sign from our young team. That said, i definitely expect the Suns to kick our ass tomorrow. They know they got a little lazy and let that one get away.

I'm more concerned about whether Sochan has beef with Wemby

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ztejas

ztejas 43262

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1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

The rule says to ignore hand contact, which this is, that doesn't affect the ballhandler's speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm. KD was moving the ball deliberately, without realizing the ball was going right into Keldon's arms. It's not until after he feels that the ball will be lost that he winces and starts complaining to the officials. Maybe it wasn't a flop, but the rule says to look for a relationship between the hand contact and the player's speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm. Technically, the hand contact can cause pain to the ballhandler or even bleeding and not result in a foul if the ballhandler's rhythm (or speed or balance) isn't affected by the hand contact.

Watching at full speed you can't really notice a change in the ballhandler's speed, nor does it look like he lost his balance or rhythm. Jones made a play on a ball that had been over KD's head at the time of the swipe, and defender's fingertip barely grazed the ballhandler's face. If that isn't incidental contact, I don't know what is.

Maybe he was afraid of being whistled for a flop if he tried to exaggerate the contact, but watching in slow motion it does appear that he reacts to the pain by wincing at around the time he brings the ball into Keldon's arms. The rule doesn't really say that a loss of ball control caused by a reduction in hand strength or by a reduction in ballhandler attention is the same thing as a change in speed, quickness, balance, or rhythm.

Judging by this video, it sure looks like KD still would have lost the ball to Keldon even if Jones's fingertip hadn't grazed his face. That's keeping with the spirit of the incidental contact rule, and I like when playoff and high stakes games are called that way. Back in the 80s, it was perfectly legal and commonplace for Bill Laimbeer to crush two or three vertebrae on every play.

What is this, a ref summit?

It's a foul, dude. If you disagree then that's fine - I'm not particularly interested in debating it. 

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9836

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2 hours ago, ztejas said:

What is this, a ref summit?

It's a foul, dude. If you disagree then that's fine - I'm not particularly interested in debating it. 

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022300113

Quote

Jones (SAS) jumps as Durant (PHX) turns and steps, resulting in incidental body contact. Jones then reaches for the ball when Durant brings it above his head, resulting in marginal contact, and Johnson (SAS) cleanly strips the ball.

 

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