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Israel-Hamas war thread

Brisketexan

By Brisketexan
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BlueGreySky
BlueGreySky

My friend from Nazareth (works as a tour guide and I hang out with her and her family every time I'm there)... digital silence.  Can't get her by phone.  Hasn't posted anything on FB or Insta since Th

TexArcher
TexArcher

I'm continually amazed at the ability of Americans to pick a side in this ongoing fiasco. I know people who are very pro-Israel and others who are very pro-Palestine. All I see is two bad gu

alincoln
alincoln

You must not read your own posts 

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2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Quelle surprise

Hamas Fails to Make Case That Israel Struck Hospital
A senior Hamas official says “nothing is left” of the munition that hit the Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza City last week, killing hundreds. Israel says the explosion was caused by a misfired Palestinian rocket.

Six days after Hamas accused Israel of bombing a hospital in Gaza City and killing hundreds of people, the armed Palestinian group has yet to produce or describe any evidence linking Israel to the strike, says it cannot find the munition that hit the site and has declined to provide detail to support its count of the casualties.

Within an hour of the blast on Tuesday night, the Hamas-run Gazan health ministry accused Israel of attacking the Ahli Arab hospital, a medical center in Gaza City where scores of families had been sheltering. The allegation was soon denied by Israel but quickly accepted and amplified by Arab leaders across the Middle East, setting off unrest throughout the region. The claim was widely cited by international news outlets, including The New York Times, before Israel issued its denial.

But in the days since, as new evidence contradicting the Hamas claim has emerged, the Gazan authorities have changed their story about the blast. Spokespeople have released death tolls varying from 500 to 833, before settling on 471.

The Hamas-run health ministry has also declined to release further details about those 471 victims, and all traces of the munition have seemingly vanished from the site of the blast, making it impossible to assess its provenance. Raising further questions about Hamas’s claims, the impact site turned out to be the hospital parking lot, and not the hospital itself.

On Sunday, Hamas turned down requests by The Times to view any available evidence of the munition it said had struck the hospital, claiming that it had disintegrated beyond recognition.

“The missile has dissolved like salt in the water,” said Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official, in a phone interview. “It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.”

Salama Maroof, the head of the Hamas-run government media office, said in a text message: “Who says we’re obligated to present the remnants of every rocket that kills our people? In general, you can come and research and confirm for yourself from the evidence we possess.”

For Palestinians, the accusation of Israeli responsibility for the blast has cemented the perception that Israel’s response to the Hamas-led terrorist attacks on southern Israel on Oct. 7 has been disproportionate and vengeful. The Hamas-run Gazan health ministry says that Israeli strikes have killed more than 4,300 Palestinians, 40 percent of them children, and the high reported death toll has undermined international support for Israel’s counterattack.

But to Israelis, the accusation that Israel hit the hospital is part of a grand deception aimed at undermining the legitimacy of Israel’s response to what officials say was the deadliest single attack on Jews since the Holocaust.

I notice that “Hamas-controlled” has been inserted in front of “Gazan health ministry” which is a welcome change.

I was at dinner last night with a New York Jewish friend and he was telling me how many times the past two weeks he’s been close to hitting the “unsubscribe” button on a paper that’s been a part of his life for basically as long as he can read.  This is someone who’s solidly liberal, maybe close even to left, secular…There have been a lot of dropped balls by some really good outlets. And these are not consequence-free, amplifying the hospital story as claimed by Hamas has had a real impact on publics and how much space leaders have.  

2 hours ago, Fud said:

This IDF press screening is a brilliant idea 

There’s a substantial number of people who will accuse Israel of creating atrocity propaganda because they showed footage Hamas fighters created. 

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bolverk

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11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I notice that “Hamas-controlled” has been inserted in front of “Gazan health ministry” which is a welcome change.

I was at dinner last night with a New York Jewish friend and he was telling me how many times the past two weeks he’s been close to hitting the “unsubscribe” button on a paper that’s been a part of his life for basically as long as he can read.  This is someone who’s solidly liberal, maybe close even to left, secular…There have been a lot of dropped balls by some really good outlets. And these are not consequence-free, amplifying the hospital story as claimed by Hamas has had a real impact on publics and how much space leaders have.  

There’s a substantial number of people who will accuse Israel of creating atrocity propaganda because they showed footage Hamas fighters created. 

 

I've been trying to stay out of the whole debate about blame for the hospital blast or commentary on the media's coverage. Instead, I've tried to focus my postings in this thread and the other one largely on the actual conflict (DT) itself and the underlying issues at hand (CR).

But, yeah, in the two subscriptions to national publications I hold, there were articles and commentary this morning regarding the blast and how it was covered last week. If interested, here's an article from the Atlantic criticizing coverage and an additional Editor's Note from the NYTimes. No paywall links are provided for those of you who don't subscribe to either.

At the risk of getting too much into the media commentary issue, because I don't want to contribute to this thread getting off-topic, I would like to say I'd much prefer a "mea culpa" to other sources of information who pretend like they've never been wrong or who show zero self-reflection after the fact. Of course, my greater preference is for them to get it right the first time, but maybe that's asking a little too much in a world where the audience wants instantaneous infotainment and outrage.

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Foosters

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say

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Two activists from a Jewish-Arab peace movement were recently detained in Israel for putting up posters with a message that the police deemed to be offensive. The message was: “Jews and Arabs, we will get through this together.”

The activists, members of Standing Together, had their posters confiscated, as well as T-shirts printed with peace slogans in Hebrew and Arabic.

It was not an isolated incident. Across Israel, people are being detained, fired from their jobs, and even attacked for expressing sentiments interpreted by some as showing sympathy for Hamas after the group’s murderous attack on 7 October. The definition of pro-Hamas is often widened to include expressions of sympathy for the plight of Palestinian children trapped in Gaza, or calls for peace, especially if expressed in both Arabic and Hebrew.

Quote

Alon-Lee Green, the national director of Standing Together, said Frey’s was just one example of widespread intimidation of Israelis who oppose government policy and collective punishment of Palestinians.

“A lot of people are being laid off from work because of different political views or just their identity,” Green said. “Every day we get hundreds of phone calls to our hotline specifically from people who are losing their jobs. A few dozen of them could be said to have expressed support for Hamas, but the overwhelming majority have posted calls to stop the war, or saying things like: there are also children in Gaza.

“It’s a disgrace because we need these doctors, psychologists, members of arts faculty, who are part of our society and suffering from trauma,” he added. “It’s also dangerous because it can lead to a new front inside with the danger of intercommunal violence.”

Doxing of personal details and intimidation against peace activists is a widespread phenomenon, said Ori Kol, co-founder of FakeReporter, a group dedicated to combating the spread of misinformation and hate speech online.

 

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DDD Dad

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CNN is reporting that 2 female Israeli hostages are to be released (or have been released) by Hamas. 

ETA: Release brokered by Qatar and Egypt. Not in custody of IDF yet. 
 

Not clear if either has dual/multiple citizenships. 
 

Edited by DDD Dad
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In all the talk about ceasefires, I haven’t seen any reporting that Hamas wants one or is willing to implement one. Ceasefires take two side. 
 

Although even if they did, the idea of “we will murder a bunch of people and kidnap little kids and old folks, threaten to kill then, then say ‘let’s not fight’” seems pretty unreasonable to tell Israelis to accept. 

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25909

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Posted

Posted in the wrong thread. 

What the hell would this look like? 

JERUSALEM, Oct 24 (Reuters) - French President Emmanuel Macron proposed on Tuesday that an international coalition fighting against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria be widened to include the fight against the Palestinian militant group Hamas in Gaza.

Macron gave no detail on how the U.S.-led coalition of dozens of countries, of which Israel is not a member, could be involved.

Speaking alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem, Macron stressed that France and Israel shared terrorism as their "common enemy".

https://www.reuters.com/world/frances-macron-says-he-stands-solidarity-with-israels-fight-against-terrorism-2023-10-24/

 

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Brisketexan

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Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Posted in the wrong thread. 

What the hell would this look like? 

JERUSALEM, Oct 24 (Reuters) - French President Emmanuel Macron proposed on Tuesday that an international coalition fighting against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria be widened to include the fight against the Palestinian militant group Hamas in Gaza.

Macron gave no detail on how the U.S.-led coalition of dozens of countries, of which Israel is not a member, could be involved.

Speaking alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem, Macron stressed that France and Israel shared terrorism as their "common enemy".

https://www.reuters.com/world/frances-macron-says-he-stands-solidarity-with-israels-fight-against-terrorism-2023-10-24/

 

My reply over there:

 

It would look like a mongolian clusterfuck inside a dumpster fire in the middle of a shitshow.

France's curious appetite for military adventurism at times is just f'n weird. 

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2 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Posted in the wrong thread. 

What the hell would this look like? 

JERUSALEM, Oct 24 (Reuters) - French President Emmanuel Macron proposed on Tuesday that an international coalition fighting against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria be widened to include the fight against the Palestinian militant group Hamas in Gaza.

Macron gave no detail on how the U.S.-led coalition of dozens of countries, of which Israel is not a member, could be involved.

Speaking alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem, Macron stressed that France and Israel shared terrorism as their "common enemy".

https://www.reuters.com/world/frances-macron-says-he-stands-solidarity-with-israels-fight-against-terrorism-2023-10-24/

 

It’s called “how to dismantle the global coalition against ISIS.” 

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B00M

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On 10/23/2023 at 1:07 PM, freyguy said:

this type of method also needs to be shown after every school shooting.

For what purpose? To emotionally manipulate onlookers and justify punishing the wrong people? Biden is right, Israel should learn from our mistakes and not invade Gaza. Their tanks will be useless against the embedded terrorists that can hide in the population and miles of deep subterranean tunnels. A lot of young Israeli soldiers will die for nothing, perhaps less than nothing as they accidentally kill innocent Palestinians and inspire the next generation. It took us years of blood and billions (trillions?) of dollars to figure this out. Israel should get the revenge they crave with air strikes then use surveillance and special forces raids to try to surgically dismantle the Hamas networks. Hamas wants the invasion. They want to drag Israel and the US into the shit. If we want to continue to contain China and support Ukraine, we cannot afford for this to expand. The only way Israel (and the US) “wins” this round of the conflict is by preventing escalation.

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https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/drone-attacks-american-bases-injured-two-dozen-us-military-personnel-rcna121961

 

Two dozen American military personnel were wounded last week in a series of drone attacks at American bases in Iraq and Syria, U.S. Central Command told NBC News on Tuesday.

The Pentagon confirmed the attacks last week, but the number of U.S. casualties has not been previously disclosed.

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13 minutes ago, Viper said:

This seems like it could be a big deal

 

The Saudis have been pounding the Houthis like a heavy bag for a long fucking time and they have absolutely zero interest in a Middle East war where they have to pick sides between Iran and Israel. They have extreme interest in this staying contained. 

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InkaUtexas

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To clarify. the Saudi government does. Do the average people? 

the UAE stayed quiet about Iraq officially, even sending forces into Afghanistan into some bad areas. But on the street? Nah, the average Emirati and Muslim was pissed about the invasion and especially Fallujah. The Mosques would go off on Fridays, but the police would not let shit get out of control. There were 1 on 1 incidents, usually involving US sailors on shore leave, but even those had security personnel as minders for trips to the malls. 

Only night I felt scared in Dubai was in a Bangladeshi driven cab, and not the driving. Was with another American friend who lived in Malta. he spoke in Italian, I spoke in Portuguese and we did not mention the US. 

 

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1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

To clarify. the Saudi government does. Do the average people? 

the UAE stayed quiet about Iraq officially, even sending forces into Afghanistan into some bad areas. But on the street? Nah, the average Emirati and Muslim was pissed about the invasion and especially Fallujah. The Mosques would go off on Fridays, but the police would not let shit get out of control. There were 1 on 1 incidents, usually involving US sailors on shore leave, but even those had security personnel as minders for trips to the malls. 

Only night I felt scared in Dubai was in a Bangladeshi driven cab, and not the driving. Was with another American friend who lived in Malta. he spoke in Italian, I spoke in Portuguese and we did not mention the US. 

 

Yeah, that’s why the Saudis want to keep it from getting hot. They don’t want Friday prayers letting out and a mob determining their foreign policy, which is what happens if this expands and all of a sudden Iran is leading the faithful against the crusaders. 

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InkaUtexas

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Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

Yeah, that’s why the Saudis want to keep it from getting hot. They don’t want Friday prayers letting out and a mob determining their foreign policy, which is what happens if this expands and all of a sudden Iran is leading the faithful against the crusaders. 

The Haj could be lit this year. 

 

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TKthunder2

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7 hours ago, B00M said:

For what purpose? To emotionally manipulate onlookers and justify punishing the wrong people? Biden is right, Israel should learn from our mistakes and not invade Gaza. Their tanks will be useless against the embedded terrorists that can hide in the population and miles of deep subterranean tunnels. A lot of young Israeli soldiers will die for nothing, perhaps less than nothing as they accidentally kill innocent Palestinians and inspire the next generation. It took us years of blood and billions (trillions?) of dollars to figure this out. Israel should get the revenge they crave with air strikes then use surveillance and special forces raids to try to surgically dismantle the Hamas networks. Hamas wants the invasion. They want to drag Israel and the US into the shit. If we want to continue to contain China and support Ukraine, we cannot afford for this to expand. The only way Israel (and the US) “wins” this round of the conflict is by preventing escalation.

I’m not disagreeing with you, however…

Afghanistan is 250k+ square miles with a population just under 40 million.

Iraq is nearly 170k square miles with a population of more than 43 million.

Gaza is 141 square miles with a population of just over 2 million.

This isn’t exactly an Apples to Apples comparison.

 

Logistically Israel could (again not claiming they should) check each and every civilian and methodically go building by building/house by house and root out every terrorist/hide out/tunnel. It would be bloody and costly in a myriad of ways but it’s doable as the IDF now has nearly half a million active troops and advanced satellite resources and a stranglehold on their regional communication networks.

 

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B00M

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Posted
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7 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Logistically Israel could (again not claiming they should) check each and every civilian and methodically go building by building/house by house and root out every terrorist/hide out/tunnel. It would be bloody and costly in a myriad of ways but it’s doable as the IDF now has nearly half a million active troops and advanced satellite resources and a stranglehold on their regional communication networks.

 


I really don’t think they can without taking massive losses. They’ll have to secure every field, every building, every tunnel, every person they encounter… and half the people they encounter will lie about their identity. Every terrorist will lie about their affiliation. They won’t be able to prove anything. They’re going to miss some tunnels, they’re going to hit IEDs and booby traps… all they can hope to achieve is finding SOME of the tunnels that go under the border walls. And fighting in those tunnels will be a nightmare. If they close or destroy sections of tunnels, Hamas will just dig around them when they leave… 

Edited by B00M
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B00M

B00M 6414

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Imagine the level of destruction required to search these buildings. You’ll have to destroy almost everything to have confidence they’re not hiding weapons or a tunnel entrance. “Sorry former middle class palestinian stuck between us and Hamas, you’re now traumatized, homeless and all your shit is destroyed. Please don’t go join Hamas.”

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