Israel-Hamas war thread

[Viper 12109]

Good comments from Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib. I can understand how depressing it is to hope other governments will care about you (his family) more than your own government does. 

 

 

I cut out the political parts, but there is some hope with the Israelis looking to build a displacement/refugee centers and safe zone in the Hamas free parts of the north for the people in the south. (Although maybe it's just to ethnically cleanse them later, you know how bad the Israelis are at that)

Quote

Some brief updates, thoughts and comments about a number of recent events/developments.

1. My family: My aunt Tahany, her children and grandkids, and my now quadriplegic cousin Israa are still at the Amal Hospital in Khan Younis with almost no food, water, supplies, or painkillers. We haven’t heard from them since Sunday. Yesterday, ferocious bombardment took place all around the hospital, worsening the prospects of them being evacuated anytime soon. Thanks to those of you who contacted Senators and also for the wonderfully supportive messages. I’ve been told that one of the most potentially helpful ways to push for an evacuation of the roughly 80 patients at the Amal Hospital is to contact the White House. Please call them at 202-456-1111 or email  (whitehouse.gov/contact/) and ask for Presidential leadership to push for the evacuation of trapped patients through the Red Cross or Red Crescent. I will link below to the tweet with details about my family. Please also continue to email Senators and Representatives.

2. Egypt/Sinai: Reports emerged yesterday of the supposed construction of a zone by Egyptian authorities inside northern Sinai by the borders with Gaza that could contain displaced Gazans from the impending IDF operation in Rafah. My sources and opinion are that this is not at all a reversal of Egypt’s unequivocal position that it will not accept displaced Gazans en masse in Sinai. My sources tell me that the creation of this five to ten-mile-wide zone is a preventative measure in order to absorb any unwanted Gazans who may break through the borders if fighting intensifies in Rafah. This is not a policy shift on the part of Egypt but is meant to prevent the forced displacement of Gazans due to combat conditions; Egypt sees what happened in Jordan and Turkey during Syria’s civil war where would-be temporary refugee settlements have endured 13 years after Syria’s revolution began.

3. Hamas: people in southern Gaza have continued to face aggression and violence from Hamas. A video shows the Islamist group arresting someone at a UN school where displaced people are sheltering, and, in the process, beating up women and terrorizing civilians. Hamas mouthpieces allege that this was to arrest a supposed “spy” collaborating with Israel. There are at least two separate instances whereby a man and a child were shot dead by Hamas for “approaching” aid trucks. Large segments of Gaza society continue to curse out Hamas and are desperate for the group to release hostages and end the war immediately, especially given the danger of an expanded IDF ground operation in Rafah.

4. Mohammed Dahlan: The story in the New York Times today profiling Dahlan, in my opinion, hints at his ambitions to have a role in Gaza’s future. While I don’t believe that he will abandon his comfortable life in the UAE, and while I appreciate his sentiment that the future of Palestine should not have Hamas or Mahmud Abbas involved, his refusal to condemn the Oct 7th attack is his attempt at virtue-signaling to Palestinian audiences that he is “pro-resistance.” It’s important to note that Dahlan, a Gaza native, was partly responsible for provoking Hamas in 2006 and 2007, leading to the Islamist group’s takeover of the Gaza Strip and all of the disasters that followed. As a child growing up in Gaza, I met Dahlan multiple times when he used to visit my late uncle, Yousef Shehada, in Rafah. He was always eloquent and well-spoken, known for his cunning demeanor and savvy ability to customize his message based on who he was talking to. Nevertheless, I wish that Dahlan would offer realistic perspectives that communicate his true feelings against armed resistance as a meaningful pathway for obtaining Palestinian rights and statehood. Definitely an interesting figure to watch. His most brilliant point was his last: "“Relying on people suffering isn’t leadership." This is exactly Hamas's strategy, hoping to cause maximum misery for its people and expecting that to de-legitimize Israel and extract concessions.

5. Marwan Barghouti: I don’t have a whole lot to say about Mr. Barghouti except the fact that I genuinely don’t see him having a substantial role in future Palestinian leadership. Many Palestinians and Gazans that I speak to share their fear of the “Sinwar Syndrome,” in reference to Yahya Sinwar, Hamas’s Gaza chief; Sinwar actually had some seemingly reasonable views in the past and I’d encourage you to refer to his interview with an Israeli journalist in 2006. But when someone with so much trauma and baggage from serving long prison sentences is all of a sudden placed in the public sphere with tremendous power, that can have a negative, corrupting effect on them that does not serve the interest of the Palestinian people.

6. West Bank: The incursions of the Israeli military throughout the West Bank, including in Ramallah, Nablus, and other cities, as well as their aggressive measures in Jerusalem, are truly detrimental to the stability of the fragile Palestinian Authority.

7. Qatar and Hamas/PA/PLO: As Arab countries are nearing a point where they can share their visions for a Palestinian state and end to the conflict, using the Gaza war as a catalyst for a different future, Qatar is working a seemingly separate track. It seems that Doha is attempting to get Hamas to join the PLO and form a unity technocrat government and has been hosting PA officials to discuss such steps and possible leadership candidates. It’s worth noting that Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Jordan, and Egypt are seeking to present a roadmap for Palestinian statehood while somewhat bypassing Hamas, while Qatar is focused on ensuring that Hamas is part of a future next chapter/phase. Both have legitimate points of view in that Hamas must be bypassed and cannot, in its current form, be part of the future, while also acknowledging that new/future governance in Gaza will need Hamas’s thumbs-up.

8. Lebanon: The serious escalation in Lebanon after the death of an Israeli soldier partially broke the established rules of engagement around keeping the fighting between Hezbollah and the IDF local to a narrow strip along the Israel and Lebanon borders. However, neither party is interested in further escalation; Hezbollah unfortunately is holding Lebanon’s fate hostage to the whims of Iran’s so-called “Axis of Resistance.”

11. “Al Zahra” area: The Israeli military has been establishing/building a checkpoint south of Gaza City along the western coast and north of the Nuseirat refugee camp. This is the very area that I recently suggested should become the site of new displacement/refugee centers and safe zone and a potential site for a provisional seaport/dock that could receive incoming humanitarian supplies to serve fleeing civilians in the north. It is very evident from lots of Israeli statements and positions that the Israeli government is using the return of civilians to the north as a bargaining chip with Hamas in hostage/ceasefire negotiations. Nevertheless, there is widespread recognition that without civilians being moved up north, the IDF’s operation in Rafah can never fully happen, given that nearly 1.5 million civilians are taking shelter in Gaza’s southernmost city. Keep an eye on this area as a potential hotspot of intriguing humanitarian and reconstruction/redevelopment for the entirety of the Gaza Strip.

12. Rising Anti-Semitism: Regrettably and sadly, incidents of Anti-Semitism in the Western world are truly out of control and utterly shameful. Holding Jewish people responsible for Israel’s actions, or targeting Jewish establishments, individuals, businesses, houses of worship, or even people who support Israel for holding an opinion does not help Gazans or Palestinians, nor is it a legitimate form of opposition to Israeli policies. In the same way that many pro-Palestine folks detest attempts to silence them or prevent them from speaking out, using hateful speech, unskillful tactics, or even violent vandalism is incredibly immoral and damaging and must stop. While Anti-Zionism is not inherently Anti-Semitic, it has sadly become the case that lots of Anti-Zionist activism has crossed the line over to Anti-Semitism and once again, that is wrong, immoral, and unhelpful to the plight of the Palestinians.

 

[Viper 12109]

More from Ahmed, he's really pushing this airdrop idea with so many of his extended family there going hungry

 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

https://time.com/6821425/israel-embassy-air-force-protest-fire-self-immolation-aaron-bushnell-latest-updates/

[Schulz2.0 28961]

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

https://time.com/6821425/israel-embassy-air-force-protest-fire-self-immolation-aaron-bushnell-latest-updates/

[Brian Fantana 6689]

2 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Seems like there are words you could read that explain why

[atomheartbevo 89734]

23 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Mental health problems.

[Schulz2.0 28961]

27 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Seems like there are words you could read that explain why

I read it. Still fucking stupid.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

32 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I read it. Still fucking stupid.

I don't necessarily disagree

e: To be clear, I don't think it's stupid to feel some kind of way about being complicit in genocide. But you shouldn't off yourself in protest, that doesn't help anyone ultimately. It might get a few more eyes on the story, but they're gonna be on you instead of where they should be.

Edited February 26 by Brian Fantana

[freyguy 4278]

Well, compared to past events where servicemen chose to go on a shooting rampage, I think this had the best possible outcome.

[Bevo 13579]

On 2/14/2024 at 2:40 PM, Chopper said:

Shocker.

 

Pretty limited in what he could do in the military. He is a high value target both here and in Israel. I doubt anyone who is pro-Israel would want his name and location printed, but yet we see it printed by the Daily Mail.

[Chopper 17238]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I doubt anyone who is pro-Israel would want his name and location printed, but yet we see it printed by the Daily Mail.

I am pro-Israel. I am anti-Benjamin Netanyahu. If Israel is safe for the PM it's safe for his son. Or so one would think.

[Bevo 13579]

22 minutes ago, Chopper said:

I am pro-Israel. I am anti-Benjamin Netanyahu. If Israel is safe for the PM it's safe for his son. Or so one would think.

I would think that Israel is much safer than Florida for Yair. But, in all locations, he is a high-value target.

[Helobious 9462]

I now have a ton of respect for people that kill only themselves instead of shooting a bunch of other people first. Seriously. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

https://time.com/6821425/israel-embassy-air-force-protest-fire-self-immolation-aaron-bushnell-latest-updates/

Apparently, he was a DevOps engineer for the Air Force, on active duty, and based in San Antonio. Doesn't really take much imagination to figure out what he was likely working on. A strong enough crisis of conscience certainly could lead to a mental break like this.

I watched the [blurred] video. He states his intentions calmly and clearly, sets his phone down to film, pours the fuel on himself, lights it, and yells "Free Palestine!" until he is no longer physically able.

The worst part is the meathead cop pointing a gun at him (according to reports, this is off screen on his video) and getting stuck in NPC mode, yelling "GET DOWN ON THE GROUND" over and over as if the guy who's literally engulfed in flames in front of him can hear or see his stupid ass.

Edited February 26 by Brian Fantana

[InkaUtexas 25996]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Apparently, he was a DevOps engineer for the Air Force, on active duty, and based in San Antonio. Doesn't really take much imagination to figure out what he was likely working on. A strong enough crisis of conscience certainly could lead to a mental break like this.

I watched the [blurred] video. He states his intentions calmly and clearly, sets his phone down to film, pours the fuel on himself, lights it, and yells "Free Palestine!" until he is no longer physically able.

The worst part is the meathead cop pointing a gun at him (according to reports, this is off screen on his video) and getting stuck in NPC mode, yelling "GET DOWN ON THE GROUND" over and over as if the guy who's literally engulfed in flames in front of him can hear or see his stupid ass.

I watched it. There were also calls to Get him on the ground. And the line, I don't need guns, I need fire extinguishers.

And it is on his video. Not posting it, anyone who wants can find it.

 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I watched it. There were also calls to Get him on the ground. And the line, I don't need guns, I need fire extinguishers.

And it is on his video. Not posting it, anyone who wants can find it.

 

Yeah I watched the cropped/blurred version, you don't see the cop in that one

[Viper 12109]

Jordan and the IDF work out a semi-successful airdrop of aid bypassing hamas.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000009331074/gaza-aid-jordan-airdrop.html

 

[atomheartbevo 89734]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't necessarily disagree

e: To be clear, I don't think it's stupid to feel some kind of way about being complicit in genocide. But you shouldn't off yourself in protest, that doesn't help anyone ultimately. It might get a few more eyes on the story, but they're gonna be on you instead of where they should be.

It’s a meme/video that will go around for a day or two and then be forgotten. And yeah, everybody will focus on his mental health issues instead of what he claimed to be concerned with.  It’s definitely not the same as the Burning Monk in Vietnam in the early 60s. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

24 minutes ago, Viper said:

Jordan and the IDF work out a semi-successful airdrop of aid bypassing hamas.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000009331074/gaza-aid-jordan-airdrop.html

 

Pretty disingenuous to imply that the IDF is lending any sort of assistance here, besides not blowing the planes out of the sky (out of the kindness of their hearts, I'm sure) considering the only reason these air drops are even necessary is the IDF's flat refusal to facilitate aid deliveries in the first place.

[Frank Drebin 5645]

IDF should keep on keeping on until there is an unconditional surrender by Hamas.  Same as we/Allies treated Germany and Japan 80 years ago.

 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

[Hank_Hill 18883]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

IDF should keep on keeping on until there is an unconditional surrender by Hamas.  Same as we/Allies treated Germany and Japan 80 years ago.

 

The country committing mass genocide equates to the allies in this comparison? Not to the 2 countries that committed mass genocide? Interesting. 

Edited February 26 by Hank_Hill

[956 Worldwide 34715]

53 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It’s a meme/video that will go around for a day or two and then be forgotten. And yeah, everybody will focus on his mental health issues instead of what he claimed to be concerned with.  It’s definitely not the same as the Burning Monk in Vietnam in the early 60s. 

Mental illness meeting up with an online extremist community.  It’s really sad. I agree that at least this did not result in violence against others. 

[Viper 12109]

54 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Pretty disingenuous to imply that the IDF is lending any sort of assistance here, besides not blowing the planes out of the sky (out of the kindness of their hearts, I'm sure) considering the only reason these air drops are even necessary is the IDF's flat refusal to facilitate aid deliveries in the first place.

Not really. The IDF was involved and it shows their issue with aid was that it was going primarily to Hamas and not to people as reports on the ground indicate

 

4 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

The country committing mass genocide equates to the allies in this comparison? Not the 2 countries that committed mass genocide? Interesting. 

Hamas isn't a country

[Hank_Hill 18883]

4 minutes ago, Viper said:

 

Hamas isn't a country

Some say Israel is though, which is who I was referring to.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

1 hour ago, Viper said:

Not really. The IDF was involved and it shows their issue with aid was that it was going primarily to Hamas and not to people as reports on the ground indicate.

 

Post literally any proof to back that claim up. IDF isn't mentioned once in the link you provided. You injected it in your post in order to propagandize.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

I will also add that if you’re part of or following online groups and they are in any way justifying or romanticizing what this man did, you’re swimming in the extremist deep end. You should take care and take stock especially if you struggle with mental health yourself.  They are not feeling your brain healthy food and are working against getting healthy. 

[Hank_Hill 18883]

I frequent Surly, there isn’t any of my brain left for self immolation supporting forums to ruin

[Brian Fantana 6689]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I will also add that if you’re part of or following online groups and they are in any way justifying or romanticizing what this man did, you’re swimming in the extremist deep end. You should take care and take stock especially if you struggle with mental health yourself.  They are not feeling your brain healthy food and are working against getting healthy. 

Yeah I agree. Killing yourself for a cause never helps that cause. It never helps anyone, no matter the rationale. It's important not to engage in suicidal ideation for any reason, even if you think you deeply believe in a cause. That cause, no matter what, isn't worth your life or the pain you'll cause to those who care for you.

[Frank Drebin 5645]

3 hours ago, Hank_Hill said:

The country committing mass genocide equates to the allies in this comparison? Not to the 2 countries that committed mass genocide? Interesting. 

If Israel wanted to commit mass genocide instead of taking efforts to avoid civilian casualties, Gaza would have been devoid of human life on October 8.  Hamas is the entity that wants to commit genocide and push Israel into the sea.  Israel is defending itself from naked aggression.  Just like the USA against Japan.  They should not stop until Hamas unconditionally surrenders or is eradicated.  Fuck them.  

[Frank Drebin 5645]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I agree. Killing yourself for a cause never helps that cause. It never helps anyone, no matter the rationale. It's important not to engage in suicidal ideation for any reason, even if you think you deeply believe in a cause. That cause, no matter what, isn't worth your life or the pain you'll cause to those who care for you.

People like that generally think they’re a much bigger character in the drama of the world than they really are. Social media doesn’t help them.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

31 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

If Israel wanted to commit mass genocide instead of taking efforts to avoid civilian casualties, Gaza would have been devoid of human life on October 8.  Hamas is the entity that wants to commit genocide and push Israel into the sea.  Israel is defending itself from naked aggression.  Just like the USA against Japan.  They should not stop until Hamas unconditionally surrenders or is eradicated.  Fuck them.  

You're a complete fucking idiot, as usual. Fuck off, Sack.

[Frank Drebin 5645]

26 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're a complete fucking idiot, as usual. Fuck off, Sack.

I think the my post was pretty much just common sense.  I hate Hamas   You don’t   

But have a good night.  

Edited February 27 by Frank Drebin

[Brian Fantana 6689]

10 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I think the my post was pretty much just common sense.  I hate Hamas   You don’t   

But have a good night.  

Your post represents a complete lack of even basic Wikipedia-level knowledge of the conflict. Even the most hardcore Zionists don't tow the "Gaza would be a parking lot if Israel wanted it to be" line anymore because it's complete nonsense.

Your posting comes from a much simpler place: Your inner desire to see as many dead Muslims as possible.

Don't forget, we know who you are. We know the things you've said in the past. Your username change doesn't erase any of that.

Also, I do hate Hamas. Everyone fucking hates Hamas you moron.

[Frank Drebin 5645]

39 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Your post represents a complete lack of even basic Wikipedia-level knowledge of the conflict. Even the most hardcore Zionists don't tow the "Gaza would be a parking lot if Israel wanted it to be" line anymore because it's complete nonsense.

Your posting comes from a much simpler place: Your inner desire to see as many dead Muslims as possible.

Don't forget, we know who you are. We know the things you've said in the past. Your username change doesn't erase any of that.

Also, I do hate Hamas. Everyone fucking hates Hamas you moron.

Wrong.  Israel could wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to.  They don’t despite all the attacks.   Every death in Gaza is 100 percent the fault of Hamas.  
 

I want Hamas dead or to surrender.  Until they are all one or the other, the IDF shouldn’t let up one bit.  
 

My inner desire to see as many muslims dead as possible?  What a stupid statement.  

Edited February 27 by Frank Drebin

[Brian Fantana 6689]

15 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Wrong.  Israel could wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to.  They don’t despite all the attacks.

Of course they technically could. The point is they would have no allies left if they did. That's why it's an idiotic point to even discuss. No matter what a piece of work Netanyahu is, wiping out 2 million people would instantly make Israel the loneliest country in the world and he knows it. Engaging in ethnic cleansing over several decades is much safer.

Not to mention, it's important to remember that without the existence of Hamas to use as a political bludgeon, Likud likely does not have enough support within Israel to remain in power, which poses a big problem for Netanyahu's prospects of staying out of prison. He needs Hamas, and they need him. It's a vicious ouroboros.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

28 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I want Hamas dead or to surrender.  Until they are all one or the other, the IDF shouldn’t let up one bit.  

My inner desire to see as many muslims dead as possible?  What a stupid statement.  

Of course. Tens of thousands of dead Palestinians mean nothing to you. If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be apoplectic with rage. Your (many times demonstrated on Surly) hateful Christian fundamentalism requires you to hate them.

[Frank Drebin 5645]

10 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Of course. Tens of thousands of dead Palestinians mean nothing to you. If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be apoplectic with rage. Your (many times demonstrated on Surly) hateful Christian fundamentalism requires you to hate them.

Those lives mean nothing to Hamas.  Hamas is solely responsible for every death in Gaza.   I’d prefer they leave each other alone.  But Hamas chose differently.  

[Hermanator 7115]

Even if you nuke the entirety of Palestine a dozen times over and killed virtually every person in the region it wouldn't end Hamas. They don't only exist within that geological border. 

And even if they did and it ended Hamas it wouldn't end Islam. But it would cause Islamic countries to try to nuke Israel out of existence. It would create hate groups that rise from the Hamas ashes with more rage than before. 

How did decades worth of US bullshit following a decade of Solviet bullshit in Islamic countries only making things worse not impart any wisdom?

 

 

Edited February 27 by Hermanator

[Frank Drebin 5645]

8 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Even if you nuke the entirety of Palestine a dozen times over and killed virtually every person in the region it wouldn't end Hamas. They don't only exist within that geological border. 

And even if they did and it ended Hamas it wouldn't end Islam. But it would cause Islamic countries to try to nuke Israel out of existence. It would create hate groups that rise from the Hamas ashes with more rage than before. 

How did decades worth of US bullshit following a decade of Solviet bullshit in Islamic countries only making things worse not impart any wisdom?

 

 

To be fair, those countries have never exactly been garden spots.

Israel will make peace with its neighbors.  See Egypt and Jordan.  What it cannot do is make peace with entities that only want to destroy it.  

[Frank Drebin 5645]

23 hours ago, freyguy said:

Well, compared to past events where servicemen chose to go on a shooting rampage, I think this had the best possible outcome.

Sadly, Bushnell was radicalized by a toxic and cancerous ideology.  Here are some of his reddit posts.

Sad a F-16 pilot survived a crash and other posts.

 

[Frank Drebin 5645]

[Frank Drebin 5645]

Bushnell is an imbecile that was fed malignant propaganda and lit himself on fire.

[Incredulity 11675]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

Bushnell is an imbecile that was fed malignant propaganda and lit himself on fire.

what was his Surly handle?

[jdhorn92 1552]

Sorry if already posted.  Love him or hate him, Jon Stewart with a reasonable solution.   Long and short, Israel stops bombing and pulls out.  ALL hostages released.  Arab nations form coalition force (I know I know, thats a big ask).  Wont be called NATO for obvious reasons, but rather METO (I laughed, Middle East Treaty Org).  DMZ between a Gaza and Israel is established, funded and monitored by a METO force.

Im mean it makes sense on paper.

 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/2024/02/27/the-daily-show-jon-stewart-war-in-gaza-orig.cnn

[InkaUtexas 25996]

been discussed on this board. A few times. Makes sense, but won't happen.

 

[Stilicho 1397]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

what was his Surly handle?

Johnny Sack

[statsman 5472]

I think one of the more interesting things going on is the dissolution of the Fatah PA government, and its reforming as…something else. 
 
I am an optimist, by nature. I choose to believe that some people of good will and intentions are involved and I hope they’re successful in giving these people a good leadership. Any success in That direction will be a good thing. 

Edited February 27 by statsman

[ABSR 5316]

12 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

Those lives mean nothing to Hamas.  Hamas is solely responsible for every death in Gaza.   I’d prefer they leave each other alone.  But Hamas chose differently.  

Hamas is trying to use Israel's, and for that matter most of the worlds, humanity as a weapon against them to get Israel to stop attacking.  They take women, children, civilians and use them as human shields, often firing and trying to kill Israeli's and others as they stand behind them.  Then if attacked they claim the "inhumanity" of that action. They did this before this larger conflict as they purposefully use hospitals, schools etc as places for weapons, headquarters and launching missiles and attacks.

If you use a human shield and that "shield" gets injured or killed, the one who should be held responsible is the person who used them.