Israel-Hamas war thread

[statsman 5469]

55 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

But those dead women could have been examined by a coroner for physical signs of rape and could have been used to gather DNA evidence. The atrocities committed on October 7th were evil and cruel. There is no justification for them in a modern world nor in a guerrilla campaign. Those realities are enough. The whole world was on the side of Israel. A response was expected and necessary.

 

 

 

Jewish people, especially in Israel, have unique ideas about dead bodies and proper care of them. It’s my understanding that the religious folks had more say in handling the corpses, early on, than the forensic folks. 
 
You used to hear crazy stories during the Intifada, when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew up a bunch of people, of religious authorities coming to the scene to collect every body fragment they could, no matter how small. Then, there’s also the whole thing of Israel trading live prisoners for dead IDF captives. 
 
Don’t worry, though. Israel has a lot of photographic evidence and they have made some displays. Every time it’s shown to some one in the west, they leave crying and angry. 

Edited March 10 by statsman

[statsman 5469]

56 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There is nothing you can say that will alter their perspective. They don't want their minds changed. Palestinians (all of them, not just Hamas) are animals to them. Statsman does nothing but play dumb and concern troll in the CR thread and 956 just openly advocates for genocide. You're wasting your time.

There is a lot to unravel here- military vs. police action (depends on citizenship claims of Gazans), old land claims, asymmetric warfare rules (or lack of). Fontana, your typical response to my questioning is something like, “you’re late to the discussion; this has all been worked out already in the CR thread”. 
 
Maybe it has been, or maybe you can’t explain it beyond “my side-your side”. I do know that the CR thread mainstays may feel they have it all figured out, but their position is a minority position in the U.S.  

Which doesn’t make them wrong; but it doesn’t give them authority either. 
 
“Shut up”, he explained- that’s not an argument. 
 
This is the DT thread, so discussion is limited here. I think it’s fine to discuss facets of the war here. It is a war, if you agree that Gaza and Israel are two different states (yes, I know that Israel declared war on “Hamas” and not “Gaza”; it is in Gaza where that war is waged). If you disagree, and believe Gaza and Israel are the same state; then this is an internal police action, and not a war, and different standards apply (one of the wonderful unique things about the U.S. is that our constitution forbids the military to be applied internally). In 2005, Israel said Gaza wasn’t theirs any more, so that’s their stance. 
 
That’s a discussion I haven’t seen held here. My take is that Israel has a stronger argument. 

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

So how long until Hamas starts lobbing rockets at our temporary ports that are providing aid?

[Anastasis 23469]

30 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

So how long until Hamas starts lobbing rockets at our temporary ports that are providing aid?

I hate that if not rockets this is going to be a high profile target. 
 

Here’s an idea. Instead of wasting time and resources to set up a port, how about we *checks map* drive it across the fucking border. 

[ChickenSandwich 9836]

Desperate people charging the trucks could lead to a security nightmare and some bad decisions by the soldiers?

 

A port could be easier to control/secure?

Edited March 11 by ChickenSandwich

[Bevo 13577]

39 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Desperate people charging the trucks could lead to a security nightmare and some bad decisions by the soldiers?

 

A port could be easier to control/secure?

Correct. A bunch of people were killed and many, many more were injured when citizens tried to stop the trucks that were being commandeered by Hamas. The drivers panicked and then the people panicked and even more lives were lost. The airdrops and the ships were suppose to alleviate the Hamas' problem. More aid can come in and it can go directly from the ship to the people without Hamas intercepting the supplies. However, yes Hamas will try to attack the ships - Maybe, this will cause a backlash against Hamas, though.

[South Austin 52499]

On 3/9/2024 at 2:38 PM, bolverk said:

Looks like a C-17 to me.

 

[statsman 5469]

WRT reported Gazan casualty- we know that Hamas reports are not anything to put faith in. We also know that any loss of innocent civilian life is a tragedy. That said, Abraham Wyner, a stats prof at Wharton, took a look at the casualty numbers reported by Hamas and explains why they’re probably all made up. 
 
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers

This is not to downplay the humanitarian tragedy, but to shed light on subjective assessments of Israel’s methods of urban warfare. 

Edited March 12 by statsman

[mbtex 683]

Sounds like Somalia all over again.

[Laxtonto 12080]

3 hours ago, statsman said:

WRT reported Gazan casualty- we know that Hamas reports are not anything to put faith in. We also know that any loss of innocent civilian life is a tragedy. That said, Abraham Wyner, a stats prof at Wharton, took a look at the casualty numbers reported by Hamas and explains why they’re probably all made up. 
 
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers

This is not to downplay the humanitarian tragedy, but to shed light on subjective assessments of Israel’s methods of urban warfare. 

I saw that yesterday. It is humorous to see how poorly they faked the data. Looks like something one of my undergrads would do.

If you are going to make up numbers you have to understand 2 major things. 1. the dynamic relationships of the system components and the concept of variation.

[Nivek 16929]

WRT reported Gazan casualty- we know that Hamas reports are not anything to put faith in. We also know that any loss of innocent civilian life is a tragedy. That said, Abraham Wyner, a stats prof at Wharton, took a look at the casualty numbers reported by Hamas and explains why they’re probably all made up. 
 
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
This is not to downplay the humanitarian tragedy, but to shed light on subjective assessments of Israel’s methods of urban warfare. 

Did anyone really put any stock into those reports?

[statsman 5469]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Did anyone really put any stock into those reports?

They were quoted by the POTUS and Sec. of Defense. 
 
Everyone understands that the death of even one innocent is a tragedy. Bogus numbers allow the sympathetic world to aim its animus at Israel. A correct understanding of the numbers reveals how evil Hamas is. 
 
Hamas has fortified tunnels under Gaza, built at UN expense. When Israel attacks, Hamas retreats to the tunnels, leaving Gazan civilians outside. Hamas desires Gazan civilian casualties; that’s a strategy for survival. 
 
This is a horrible, awful math, but the calculation can’t be correct without the right data. 

[Anastasis 23469]

In all fairness, the average palestinian counts for approximately 1/100th a good israeli. Once you take that statistical adjustment into account, the whole ethnic cleansing thing isn't actually that terrible. 

[Frank Drebin 5639]

Every death in Gaza is the sole responsibility of Hamas.

[statsman 5469]

12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In all fairness, the average palestinian counts for approximately 1/100th a good israeli. Once you take that statistical adjustment into account, the whole ethnic cleansing thing isn't actually that terrible. 

I’m sure you know that is Hamas/Fatah math. When prisoners are exchanged, they insist on a 100:1 ratio. Fatah pays a lifetime pension to the families of a Palestinian that kills a Jew. 

Edited March 12 by statsman

[MissingInAction 25074]

2 hours ago, mbtex said:

Sounds like Somalia all over again.

[wildcat09 29354]

3 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

Every death in Gaza is the sole responsibility of Hamas.

That's an amazing religion you practice, Johnny. 

[Frank Drebin 5639]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

That's an amazing religion you practice, Johnny. 

Nothing to do with religion.  It is simple common sense.  Which is at odds with your religion (the church of Cloak Room).

[wildcat09 29354]

It's common sense that, for example, an IDF soldier who executes a civilian in cold blood isn't morally responsible for that man's death?

That's what you want to tell God when you meet him? 

[statsman 5469]

There is an old trope- “He killed his parents and then asked the court for leniency, because he is an orphan”. 
 
That’s what Hamas is doing, pleeding for intervention against Israel due to the humanitarian disaster that they created and continue to support. 

Edited March 12 by statsman

[wildcat09 29354]

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge Israeli agency is no true friend of the Israeli people. 

[statsman 5469]

37 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge Israeli agency is no true friend of the Israeli people. 

Sure. But let’s not pretend there is any kind of moral equivalency, just because it may make you feel better about political allies. 
 
Let’s try a counterfactual thought experiment. Suppose a high ranking IDF general were to propose, “We’ll get several thousand IDF troops together, and we will storm into Gaza. We will rampage through neighborhoods, killing as many Gazans as we can, man woman and child. With our hands and knives, where possible. Oh! And there will be a lot of raping and sexual mutilation. Babies will be burned and then we’ll grab a couple hundred living hostages and drag them back”.

Do you think such an idea, in Israel, would be met with anything other than a suggestion to seek mental health care? In Hamas, it was actuated. 

Edited March 12 by statsman

[Brisketexan 105139]

2 minutes ago, statsman said:

Sure. But let’s not pretend there is any kind of moral equivalency, just because it may make you feel better about political allies. 
 
Let’s try a counterfactual thought experiment. Suppose a high ranking IDF general were to propose, “We’ll get several thousand IDF troops together, and we will storm into Gaza. We will rampage through neighborhoods, killing as many Gazans as we can, man woman and child. With our hands and knives, where possible. Oh! And there will be a lot of raping and sexual mutilation. Babies will be burned and then we’ll grab a couple hundred living hostages and drag them back”.

Do you think such an idea, in Israel, would be met with anything other than a suggestion to seek mental health care? In Hamas, it was actuated. 

Umm...there are rabbis in Israel right now calling for the extermination of every Palestinian in Gaza.  Like, one literally saying "kill everyone in Gaza, including babies."  So....I wouldn't go buying that white hat for Israel just yet.

[statsman 5469]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Umm...there are rabbis in Israel right now calling for the extermination of every Palestinian in Gaza.  Like, one literally saying "kill everyone in Gaza, including babies."  So....I wouldn't go buying that white hat for Israel just yet.

And how far does that idea go? Thats my point. 
 
Is it not mind boggling that October 7 happened (is still happening for hundreds of Israelis)? The Hamas militants that went in there knowing they would be raping and mutating- do they not have wives, sisters, mothers, daughters? How does that even get planned, let alone acted out on a large scale? They must really, really hate the Jews. 

Edited March 12 by statsman

[bolverk 29672]

I've got two big problems with that article on causality counts:

1) Of course, we can't expect a precise death toll count during an active, ongoing, "hot" conflict. The difficulties in obtaining an accurate count have been widely discussed since the very beginning. According to every report I've read, hospitals take the tally as the dead/injured come through the door and supplement those with reports from the field. At best, it should be treated as a messy estimate, given the lack of transparency in reporting by both Hamas and the IDF.

A very good, recent piece can be read here, outlining many of the issues (e.g., hospital closures, missing persons, inaccessibility to large parts of the Gaza Strip, communications blackouts, and general fucking chaos). One sad thing to note is that it may well be an undercount, as there are undoubtedly thousands of dead under the rubble. Moreover, it also does not take into account any war-adjacent deaths, such as those who die of illnesses and hunger.

All of that said, in previous engagements, death toll estimates provided by the Ministry of Health have been shown to be reasonably accurate -- even when compared to Israeli figures.

In past wars with Israel, the Gaza health ministry's death tolls were mostly in line with counts by the United Nations and Israel, though there have been discrepancies in the past with Israel on the numbers of civilians vs. militants killed.

An analysis published in the Lancet medical journal in December found that Gaza's health ministry has "historically reported accurate mortality data," with discrepancies between 1% and roughly 3% when compared with U.N. analysis of deaths in previous conflicts. The study found "no evidence of inflated rates" in the current war and noted that difficulties in obtaining accurate death counts "should not be interpreted as intentionally misreported data."

From an earlier article during the conflict:

Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

— 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

— 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

— 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel has killed “thousands” of militants in the current war, without offering evidence or precise numbers.

I'm not saying we should take the MofH's numbers as gospel, but they do have a generally reliable track record in these situations. And, given the unprecedented destruction we see on the ground within the very densely populated Gaza Strip, the numbers do not seem unreasonable. 

2) On to my next beef. If we are expected to be skeptical of numbers provided by the health ministry, we should also be equally suspicious of this piece, written by a statistician who does have a questionable history of misusing data in areas outside his expertise when it ideologically suits him for a politically conservative magazine targeted toward a presumably like-minded audience and has recently caused controversy within the American Jewish community. I'd say more about that, but we'd be crossing the line into CR, which the presentation of the piece already tiptoes in the Daily Texan. Personally, I try not to post articles from publications with a strong ideological bias over here. 

More specific to the actual article, I'll critique its author's cherry-picking of data from only a two-week period near the beginning of the incursion into Gaza, presenting that short timespan as if it were representative of the entire war. Given that his statistical analysis was published less than a week ago, it's disingenuous at best on his part to have restricted his efforts to that small window when we have data from throughout the conflict to show that there is indeed daily variation in the estimated death toll figures provided by the Ministry of Health. It would also appear to show a specific intent on this author's part to mislead his readers when he surely had a fuck ton of more data to work with.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the raw numbers and can only eyeball from a couple of small charts in an infographic on the UN's website. Even so, the bumps in the columns are easily perceptible by my aging eyes, and it most certainly is not the straight line with which the author intends to mislead his readers. I wish they would portray the data differently so the count for each individual day could be seen more clearly. But I'm absolutely certain the statistician knew exactly what he was doing when using the same type of graph to "prove" there was no variability in Gazan reporting. 

https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-humanitarian-impact-12-march-2024-1500

Edited March 12 by bolverk

[wildcat09 29354]

19 minutes ago, statsman said:

Sure. But let’s not pretend there is any kind of moral equivalency, just because it may make you feel better about political allies. 
 
Let’s try a counterfactual thought experiment. Suppose a high ranking IDF general were to propose, “We’ll get several thousand IDF troops together, and we will storm into Gaza. We will rampage through neighborhoods, killing as many Gazans as we can, man woman and child. With our hands and knives, where possible. Oh! And there will be a lot of raping and sexual mutilation. Babies will be burned and then we’ll grab a couple hundred living hostages and drag them back”.

Do you think such an idea, in Israel, would be met with anything other than a suggestion to seek mental health care? In Hamas, it was actuated. 

Are you aware of the things they're saying and broadcasting on Israeli television about their operations in Gaza right now?

[statsman 5469]

No, I’m not. 

[Anastasis 23469]

14 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I've got two big problems with that article on causality counts:

1) Of course, we can't expect a precise death toll count during an active, ongoing, "hot" conflict. The difficulties in obtaining an accurate count have been widely discussed since the very beginning. According to every report I've read, hospitals take the tally as the dead/injured come through the door and supplement those with reports from the field. At best, it should be treated as a messy estimate, given the lack of transparency in reporting by both Hamas and the IDF.

A very good, recent piece can be read here, outlining many of the issues (e.g., hospital closures, missing persons, inaccessibility to large parts of the Gaza Strip, communications blackouts, and general fucking chaos). One sad thing to note is that it may well be an undercount, as there are undoubtedly thousands of dead under the rubble. Moreover, it also does not take into account any war-adjacent deaths, such as those who die of illnesses and hunger.

All of that said, in previous engagements, death toll estimates provided by the Ministry of Health have been shown to be reasonably accurate -- even when compared to Israeli figures.

In past wars with Israel, the Gaza health ministry's death tolls were mostly in line with counts by the United Nations and Israel, though there have been discrepancies in the past with Israel on the numbers of civilians vs. militants killed.

An analysis published in the Lancet medical journal in December found that Gaza's health ministry has "historically reported accurate mortality data," with discrepancies between 1% and roughly 3% when compared with U.N. analysis of deaths in previous conflicts. The study found "no evidence of inflated rates" in the current war and noted that difficulties in obtaining accurate death counts "should not be interpreted as intentionally misreported data."

From an earlier article during the conflict:

Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

— 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

— 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

— 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel has killed “thousands” of militants in the current war, without offering evidence or precise numbers.

I'm not saying we should take the MofH's numbers as gospel, but they do have a generally reliable track record in these situations. And, given the unprecedented destruction we see on the ground within the very densely populated Gaza Strip, the numbers do not seem unreasonable. 

2) On to my next beef. If we are expected to be skeptical of numbers provided by the health ministry, we should also be equally suspicious of this piece, written by a statistician who does have a questionable history of misusing data in areas outside his expertise when it ideologically suits him for a politically conservative magazine targeted toward a presumably like-minded audience and has recently caused controversy within the American Jewish community. I'd say more about that, but we'd be crossing the line into CR, which the presentation of the piece already tiptoes in the Daily Texan. Personally, I try not to post articles from publications with a strong ideological bias over here. 

More specific to the actual article, I'll critique its author's cherry-picking of data from only a two-week period near the beginning of the incursion into Gaza, presenting that short timespan as if it were representative of the entire war. Given that his statistical analysis was published less than a week ago, it's disingenuous at best on his part to have restricted his efforts to that small window when we have data from throughout the conflict to show that there is indeed daily variation in the estimated death toll figures provided by the Ministry of Health. It would also appear to show a specific intent on this author's part to mislead his readers when he surely had a fuck ton of more data to work with.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the raw numbers and can only eyeball from a couple of small charts in an infographic on the UN's website. Even so, the bumps in the columns are easily perceptible by my aging eyes, and it most certainly is not the straight line with which the author intends to mislead his readers. I wish they would portray the data differently so each individual could be seen more clearly. But I'm absolutely certain the statistician knew exactly what he was doing when using the same type of graph to "prove" there was no variability in Gazan reporting. 

https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-humanitarian-impact-12-march-2024-1500

You have an enduring patience. 

[Brisketexan 105139]

25 minutes ago, statsman said:

And how far does that idea go? Thats my point. 

It goes plenty far.  It is indisputable that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians and civilian resources/structures.  Numerous high-ranking Israeli officials have said so, plainly.  The problem is that idea goes a lot fucking farther than any sane person would want it to.

What you say about Hamas is functionally entirely correct.  The worst elements of Palestinian society and government have been allowed to control major actions and the fate of a region.  That is bad.  But you need to open your eyes to the fact that the worst elements of Israeli society and government are in control in Israel right now as well, and are acting accordingly.  

Israel was wronged on October 7th.  It had the right, and even the obligation, to act in self-defense.  That does not give Israel carte blanche to level fucking cities and kill civilians indiscriminately.  In the fight against evil, it is very tempting to become that which you claim to hate.  Israel is giving in to that temptation.  It is a bad, bad look.

And if you don't trust where I'm coming from, read my other posts in this thread: I remain fucking sick and tired of the blanket pro-Palestinian posters and messaging around here.  There is a sizable plurality of Palestinians who have longed for a war of extermination against Israel.  Well, they've gotten what they wanted.  The fucking idiots.

Edited March 12 by Brisketexan

[Anastasis 23469]

5 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

Every death in Gaza is the sole responsibility of Hamas.

Similar logic would dictate that every Israeli death is the sole responsibility of haganah, Irgun, and the IDF as heirs. 
 

Stop making excuses for ethnic cleansing. 

Edited March 12 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23469]

26 minutes ago, statsman said:

And how far does that idea go?

Depends how much minimization interference you can run. 

[Brian Fantana 6687]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It is indisputable that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians and civilian resources/structures.

Lmao watch them, brother. That's like half the narrative of what all the weird OSINT nerds post in this thread.

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It goes plenty far.  It is indisputable that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians and civilian resources/structures.  Numerous high-ranking Israeli officials have said so, plainly.  The problem is that idea goes a lot fucking farther than any sane person would want it to.

What you say about Hamas is functionally entirely correct.  The worst elements of Palestinian society and government have been allowed to control major actions and the fate of a region.  That is bad.  But you need to open your eyes to the fact that the worst elements of Israeli society and government are in control in Israel right now as well, and are acting accordingly.  

Israel was wronged on October 7th.  It had the right, and even the obligation, to act in self-defense.  That does not give Israel carte blanche to level fucking cities and kill civilians indiscriminately.  In the fight against evil, it is very tempting to become that which you claim to hate.  Israel is giving in to that temptation.  It is a bad, bad look.

And if you don't trust where I'm coming from, read my other posts in this thread: I remain fucking sick and tired of the blanket pro-Palestinian posters and messaging around here.  There is a sizable plurality of Palestinians who have longed for a war of extermination against Israel.  Well, they've gotten what they wanted.  The fucking idiots.

This lines up with basically everything I've been saying here (and in the CR thread) since Oct. 7th. The most extreme elements of both "sides" are in control and that is what has led us here. It sucks that we will continue loading Israel up with bombs and money until they successfully exterminate millions, and it sucks that we have to listen to Christian nationalist pastors post about how it's simply justice served in this thread.

I don't want them all the die or get ejected from their home, I don't want them to have to live under the boot of Hamas, and I certainly don't want Israelis to die or feel unsafe because some % of Palestinians want them dead (even though that hatred is completely justifiable, it's still a very bad thing) or because their government is literally run by corrupt (both morally and literally) extremists that are little better than the Hamas terrorists they oppose.

[Brian Fantana 6687]

I should add that my goal isn't to just blindly cape for Palestinians. I just want the death and destruction to stop.

Both Palestinians and Israelis deserve better, from the world and from each other. We're way past quibbling about death total counts. The real damage is that Gaza's infrastructure and culture is basically completely destroyed and the area is effectively unlivable now. The real damage is Israel is on the verge of losing every ounce of support it has left because the world sees what is going on and largely rejects it. The only reason we have intervened to the extent we have so far is that we're on the knife's edge of a catastrophic famine here.

NOTHING that is happening right now is creating a better future for Palestinians OR Israelis. All of them are fucked and getting more fucked by the day.

[nineliveslost 2759]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I should add that my goal isn't to just blindly cape for Palestinians.

[Bevo 13577]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

That does not give Israel carte blanche to level fucking cities and kill civilians indiscriminately. 

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

Quote

I remain fucking sick and tired of the blanket pro-Palestinian posters and messaging around here.  There is a sizable plurality of Palestinians who have longed for a war of extermination against Israel.  Well, they've gotten what they wanted.  The fucking idiots.

From the river to the sea. Where does that leave Israel? That isn't peace talk. That is extermination, like what has happened to every jew in every country in the middle east.

And what started this chant, this time? The audacity that jews and arabs could have peace.

 

[Anastasis 23469]

12 minutes ago, Bevo said:

From the river to the sea. Where does that leave Israel? That isn't peace talk. That is extermination, like what has happened to every jew in every country in the middle east.

[Brian Fantana 6687]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

From the river to the sea. Where does that leave Israel? That isn't peace talk. That is extermination, like what has happened to every jew in every country in the middle east.

And what started this chant, this time? The audacity that jews and arabs could have peace.

Might want to look up ye olde Likud manifesto. You'll find some shockingly similar words there.

[statsman 5469]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

NOTHING that is happening right now is creating a better future for Palestinians OR Israelis. All of them are fucked and getting more fucked by the day.

I really want to disagree with you here, to say that eradicating Hamas will allow things to get better for both. I’m an optimist. 
 
Problem is-we never talk about who bankrolls Hamas, especially in their militant operations. Iran. 
 
Eradicate Hamas (they deserve it) and Iran will bankroll the next group of extremists. They’re better at it than the Soviets ever were. 
 
I believe in liberal democracy as the best form of government. Israel is populated by liberals, but a Jewish state is an illiberal idea. They have room to go. Still, they’re closer than Gaza. I believe Gazans can form and function a liberal democracy, but they have to be given space from the militant authoritarians, and I don’t see how that happens. Especially with Iran ready to move right back in. 

[Brian Fantana 6687]

15 minutes ago, statsman said:

I really want to disagree with you here, to say that eradicating Hamas will allow things to get better for both. I’m an optimist. 
 
Problem is-we never talk about who bankrolls Hamas, especially in their militant operations. Iran. 
 
Eradicate Hamas (they deserve it) and Iran will bankroll the next group of extremists. They’re better at it than the Soviets ever were. 
 
I believe in liberal democracy as the best form of government. Israel is populated by liberals, but a Jewish state is an illiberal idea. They have room to go. Still, they’re closer than Gaza. I believe Gazans can form and function a liberal democracy, but they have to be given space from the militant authoritarians, and I don’t see how that happens. Especially with Iran ready to move right back in. 

Yeah I mean I don't really have any disagreement with you there. I'm pretty sure I have replied to you in the CR thread about this anyway with regard to how I think you get rid of Hamas for good, and not just temporarily.

[Bevo 13577]

9 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Might want to look up ye olde Likud manifesto. You'll find some shockingly similar words there.

 

Likud Party: Original Party Platform

(1977)

 

Likud Party: Table of Contents|History & Overview|Party Leaders

The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

Genuine Peace-Our Central Objective

a. The Likud government will place its aspirations for peace at the top of its priorities and will spare no effort to promote peace. The Likud will act as a genuine partner at peace treaty negotiations with our neighbors, as is customary among the nations. The Likud government will attend the Geneva Conference. .

b. The Likud governments peace initiative will he positive. Directly or through a friendly state. Israel will invite her neighbors to hold direct negotiations, in order to sign without pre-conditions on either side and without any solution formula invented by outsiders (invented outside ).

At the negotiations each party will he free to make any proposals it deems lit.

Settlement

Settlement. both urban and rural. in all parts of the Land of Israel is the focal point of the Zionist effort to redeem the country, to maintain vital security areas and serves as a reservoir of strength and inspiration for the renewal of the pioneering spirit. The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.

Arab Terror Organizations

The PLO is no national liberation organization but an organization of assassins, which the Arab countries use as a political and military tool, while also serving the interests of Soviet imperialism, to stir up the area. Its aim is to liquidate the State of Israel, set up an Arab country instead and make the Land of Israel part of the Arab world. The Likud government will strive to eliminate these murderous organizations in order to prevent them from carrying out their bloody deeds

---

Sources: Likud Official Website; Walter Laqueur and Barry Rubin, ed, "The Israel-Arab Reader: A Documentary History of the Middle East Conflict, 6th Edition" (New York, NY: Penguin Books, 2001.

 

Hamas Covenant 1988

The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement

18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others." (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

Introduction
Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:

O People:
Out of the midst of troubles and the sea of suffering, out of the palpitations of faithful hearts and cleansed arms; out of the sense of duty, and in response to Allah's command, the call has gone out rallying people together and making them follow the ways of Allah, leading them to have determined will in order to fulfill their role in life, to overcome all obstacles, and surmount the difficulties on the way. Constant preparation has continued and so has the readiness to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the sake of Allah.

Thus it was that the nucleus (of the movement) was formed and started to pave its way through the tempestuous sea of hopes and expectations, of wishes and yearnings, of troubles and obstacles, of pain and challenges, both inside and outside.

When the idea was ripe, the seed grew and the plant struck root in the soil of reality, away from passing emotions, and hateful haste. The Islamic Resistance Movement emerged to carry out its role through striving for the sake of its Creator, its arms intertwined with those of all the fighters for the liberation of Palestine. The spirits of its fighters meet with the spirits of all the fighters who have sacrificed their lives on the soil of Palestine, ever since it was conquered by the companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, and until this day.

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Thus we see them coming on the horizon "and you shall learn about it hereafter" "Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty." (The Dispute - verse 21).

"Say to them, This is my way: I invite you to Allah, by an evident demonstration; both I and he who followeth me; and, praise be unto Allah! I am not an idolator." (Joseph - verse 107).

Hamas (means) strength and bravery -(according to) Al-Mua'jam al-Wasit: c1.

Definition of the Movement

Ideological Starting-Points

Article One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

The Islamic Resistance Movement's Relation With the Moslem Brotherhood Group:

Article Two:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Structure and Formation

Article Three:

The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Moslems who have given their allegiance to Allah whom they truly worship, - "I have created the jinn and humans only for the purpose of worshipping" - who know their duty towards themselves, their families and country. In all that, they fear Allah and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors, so that they would rid the land and the people of their uncleanliness, vileness and evils.

"But we will oppose truth to vanity, and it shall confound the same; and behold, it shall vanish away." (Prophets - verse 18).

Article Four:

The Islamic Resistance Movement welcomes every Moslem who embraces its faith, ideology, follows its programme, keeps its secrets, and wants to belong to its ranks and carry out the duty. Allah will certainly reward such one.

Time and Place Extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Five:

Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Moslems who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe. This being so, it extends to the depth of the earth and reaches out to the heaven.

"Dost thou not see how Allah putteth forth a parable; representing a good word, as a good tree, whose root is firmly fixed in the earth, and whose branches reach unto heaven; which bringeth forth its fruit in all seasons, by the will of its Lord? Allah propoundeth parables unto men, that they may be instructed." (Abraham - verses 24-25).

Characteristics and Independence:

Article Six:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

How excellent was the Moslem poet, Mohamed Ikbal, when he wrote:

"If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life."

The Universality of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Seven:

As a result of the fact that those Moslems who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one. It is well-equipped for that because of the clarity of its ideology, the nobility of its aim and the loftiness of its objectives.

On this basis, the Movement should be viewed and evaluated, and its role be recognised. He who denies its right, evades supporting it and turns a blind eye to facts, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would awaken to see that events have overtaken him and with no logic to justify his attitude. One should certainly learn from past examples.

The injustice of next-of-kin is harder to bear than the smite of the Indian sword.

"We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which Allah hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if Allah had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought it fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works; unto Allah shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed." (The Table, verse 48).

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Eight:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Objectives

Incentives and Objectives:

Article Nine:

The Islamic Resistance Movement found itself at a time when Islam has disappeared from life. Thus rules shook, concepts were upset, values changed and evil people took control, oppression and darkness prevailed, cowards became like tigers: homelands were usurped, people were scattered and were caused to wander all over the world, the state of justice disappeared and the state of falsehood replaced it. Nothing remained in its right place. Thus, when Islam is absent from the arena, everything changes. From this state of affairs the incentives are drawn.

As for the objectives: They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.

"...and if Allah had not prevented men, the one by the other, verily the earth had been corrupted: but Allah is beneficient towards his creatures." (The Cow - verse 251).

Article Ten:

As the Islamic Resistance Movement paves its way, it will back the oppressed and support the wronged with all its might. It will spare no effort to bring about justice and defeat injustice, in word and deed, in this place and everywhere it can reach and have influence therein.

Strategies and Methods

Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Islamic aqf:

Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

"Verily, this is a certain truth. Wherefore praise the name of thy Lord, the great Allah." (The Inevitable - verse 95).

Homeland and Nationalism from the Point of View of the Islamic Resistance Movement in Palestine:

Article Twelve:

Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Moslem, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.

Nothing of the sort is to be found in any other regime. This is an undisputed fact. If other nationalist movements are connected with materialistic, human or regional causes, nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement has all these elements as well as the more important elements that give it soul and life. It is connected to the source of spirit and the granter of life, hoisting in the sky of the homeland the heavenly banner that joins earth and heaven with a strong bond.

If Moses comes and throws his staff, both witch and magic are annulled.

"Now is the right direction manifestly distinguished from deceit: whoever therefore shall deny Tagut, and believe in Allah, he shall surely take hold with a strong handle, which shall not be broken; Allah is he who heareth and seeth." (The Cow - Verse 256).

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

The Three Circles:

Article Fourteen:

The question of the liberation of Palestine is bound to three circles: the Palestinian circle, the Arab circle and the Islamic circle. Each of these circles has its role in the struggle against Zionism. Each has its duties, and it is a horrible mistake and a sign of deep ignorance to overlook any of these circles. Palestine is an Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs (direction to which Moslems turn in praying), the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries, and the point of departure for Mohamed's midnight journey to the seven heavens (i.e. Jerusalem).

"Praise be unto him who transported his servant by night, from the sacred temple of Mecca to the farther temple of Jerusalem, the circuit of which we have blessed, that we might show him some of our signs; for Allah is he who heareth, and seeth." (The Night-Journey - verse 1).

Since this is the case, liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be. On this basis, the problem should be viewed. This should be realised by every Moslem.

The day the problem is dealt with on this basis, when the three circles mobilize their capabilities, the present state of affairs will change and the day of liberation will come nearer.

"Verily ye are stronger than they, by reason of the terror cast into their breasts from Allah. This, because they are not people of prudence." (The Emigration - verse 13).

The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty:

Article Fifteen:

The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). The Crusaders realised that it was impossible to defeat the Moslems without first having ideological invasion pave the way by upsetting their thoughts, disfiguring their heritage and violating their ideals. Only then could they invade with soldiers. This, in its turn, paved the way for the imperialistic invasion that made Allenby declare on entering Jerusalem: "Only now have the Crusades ended." General Guru stood at Salah el-Din's grave and said: "We have returned, O Salah el-Din." Imperialism has helped towards the strengthening of ideological invasion, deepening, and still does, its roots. All this has paved the way towards the loss of Palestine.

It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).

"The bond of one day for the sake of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it. The place of one's whip in Paradise is far better than the world and whatever there is on it. A worshipper's going and coming in the service of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it." (As related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, al-Tarmdhi and Ibn Maja).

"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

The Education of the Generations:

Article Sixteen:

It is necessary to follow Islamic orientation in educating the Islamic generations in our region by teaching the religious duties, comprehensive study of the Koran, the study of the Prophet's Sunna (his sayings and doings), and learning about Islamic history and heritage from their authentic sources. This should be done by specialised and learned people, using a curriculum that would healthily form the thoughts and faith of the Moslem student. Side by side with this, a comprehensive study of the enemy, his human and financial capabilities, learning about his points of weakness and strength, and getting to know the forces supporting and helping him, should also be included. Also, it is important to be acquainted with the current events, to follow what is new and to study the analysis and commentaries made of these events. Planning for the present and future, studying every trend appearing, is a must so that the fighting Moslem would live knowing his aim, objective and his way in the midst of what is going on around him.

"O my son, verily every matter, whether good or bad, though it be the weight of a grain of mustard-seed, and be hidden in a rock, or in the heavens, or in the earth, Allah will bring the same to light; for Allah is clear-sighted and knowing. O my son, be constant at prayer, and command that which is just, and forbid that which is evil: and be patient under the afflictions which shall befall thee; for this is a duty absolutely incumbent on all men. Distort not thy face out of contempt to men, neither walk in the earth with insolence; for Allah loveth no arrogant, vain-glorious person." (Lokman - verses 16-18).

The Role of the Moslem Woman:

Article Seventeen:

The Moslem woman has a role no less important than that of the moslem man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.

Article Eighteen:

Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them. That is why it is necessary to pay great attention to schools and the curriculum followed in educating Moslem girls, so that they would grow up to be good mothers, aware of their role in the battle of liberation.

She has to be of sufficient knowledge and understanding where the performance of housekeeping matters are concerned, because economy and avoidance of waste of the family budget, is one of the requirements for the ability to continue moving forward in the difficult conditions surrounding us. She should put before her eyes the fact that the money available to her is just like blood which should never flow except through the veins so that both children and grown-ups could continue to live.

"Verily, the Moslems of either sex, and the true believers of either sex, and the devout men, and the devout women, and the men of veracity, and the women of veracity, and the patient men, and the patient women, and the humble men, and the humble women, and the alms-givers of either sex who remember Allah frequently; for them hath Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward." (The Confederates - verse 25).

The Role of Islamic Art in the Battle of Liberation:

Article Nineteen:

Art has regulations and measures by which it can be determined whether it is Islamic or pre-Islamic (Jahili) art. The issues of Islamic liberation are in need of Islamic art that would take the spirit high, without raising one side of human nature above the other, but rather raise all of them harmoniously an in equilibrium.

Man is a unique and wonderful creature, made out of a handful of clay and a breath from Allah. Islamic art addresses man on this basis, while pre-Islamic art addresses the body giving preference to the clay component in it.

The book, the article, the bulletin, the sermon, the thesis, the popular poem, the poetic ode, the song, the play and others, contain the characteristics of Islamic art, then these are among the requirements of ideological mobilization, renewed food for the journey and recreation for the soul. The road is long and suffering is plenty. The soul will be bored, but Islamic art renews the energies, resurrects the movement, arousing in them lofty meanings and proper conduct. "Nothing can improve the self if it is in retreat except shifting from one mood to another."

All this is utterly serious and no jest, for those who are fighters do not jest.

Social Mutual Responsibility:

Article Twenty:

Moslem society is a mutually responsible society. The Prophet, prayers and greetings be unto him, said: "Blessed are the generous, whether they were in town or on a journey, who have collected all that they had and shared it equally among themselves."

The Islamic spirit is what should prevail in every Moslem society. The society that confronts a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people - such a society is entitled to this Islamic spirit. Our enemy relies on the methods of collective punishment. He has deprived people of their homeland and properties, pursued them in their places of exile and gathering, breaking bones, shooting at women, children and old people, with or without a reason. The enemy has opened detention camps where thousands and thousands of people are thrown and kept under sub-human conditions. Added to this, are the demolition of houses, rendering children orphans, meting cruel sentences against thousands of young people, and causing them to spend the best years of their lives in the dungeons of prisons.

In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder.

To counter these deeds, it is necessary that social mutual responsibility should prevail among the people. The enemy should be faced by the people as a single body which if one member of it should complain, the rest of the body would respond by feeling the same pains.

Article Twenty-One:

Mutual social responsibility means extending assistance, financial or moral, to all those who are in need and joining in the execution of some of the work. Members of the Islamic Resistance Movement should consider the interests of the masses as their own personal interests. They must spare no effort in achieving and preserving them. They must prevent any foul play with the future of the upcoming generations and anything that could cause loss to society. The masses are part of them and they are part of the masses. Their strength is theirs, and their future is theirs. Members of the Islamic Resistance Movement should share the people's joy and grief, adopt the demands of the public and whatever means by which they could be realised. The day that such a spirit prevails, brotherliness would deepen, cooperation, sympathy and unity will be enhanced and the ranks will be solidified to confront the enemies.

Supportive Forces Behind the Enemy:

Article Twenty-Two:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).

The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.

"O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118).

It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah's words "if ye understand."

Our Attitudes Towards:

A. Islamic Movements:

Article Twenty-Three:

The Islamic Resistance Movement views other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. If it were at variance with them on one point or opinion, it is in agreement with them on other points and understandings. It considers these movements, if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah, that they fall into the category of those who are trying hard since they act within the Islamic circle. Each active person has his share.

The Islamic Resistance Movement considers all these movements as a fund for itself. It prays to Allah for guidance and directions for all and it spares no effort to keep the banner of unity raised, ever striving for its realisation in accordance with the Koran and the Prophet's directives.

"And cleave all of you unto the covenant of Allah, and depart not from it, and remember the favour of Allah towards you: since ye were enemies, and he reconciled your hearts, and ye became companions and brethren by his favour: and ye were on the brink of a pit of fire, and he delivered you thence. Allah declareth unto you his signs, that ye may be directed." (The Family of Imran - Verse 102).

Article Twenty-Four:

The Islamic Resistance Movement does not allow slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups, for the believer does not indulge in such malpractices. It is necessary to differentiate between this behaviour and the stands taken by certain individuals and groups. Whenever those stands are erroneous, the Islamic Resistance Movement preserves the right to expound the error and to warn against it. It will strive to show the right path and to judge the case in question with objectivity. Wise conduct is indeed the target of the believer who follows it wherever he discerns it.

"Allah loveth not the speaking ill of anyone in public, unless he who is injured call for assistance; and Allah heareth and knoweth: whether ye publish a good action, or conceal it, or forgive evil, verily Allah is gracious and powerful." (Women - verses 147-148).

B. Nationalist Movements in the Palestinian Arena:

Article Twenty-Five:

The Islamic Resistance Movement respects these movements and appreciates their circumstances and the conditions surrounding and affecting them. It encourages them as long as they do not give their allegiance to the Communist East or the Crusading West. It confirms to all those who are integrated in it, or sympathetic towards it, that the Islamic Resistance Movement is a fighting movement that has a moral and enlightened look of life and the way it should cooperate with the other (movements). It detests opportunism and desires only the good of people, individuals and groups alike. It does not seek material gains, personal fame, nor does it look for a reward from others. It works with its own resources and whatever is at its disposal "and prepare for them whatever force you can", for the fulfilment of the duty, and the earning of Allah's favour. It has no other desire than that.

The Movement assures all the nationalist trends operating in the Palestinian arena for the liberation of Palestine, that it is there for their support and assistance. It will never be more than that, both in words and deeds, now and in the future. It is there to bring together and not to divide, to preserve and not to squander, to unify and not to throw asunder. It evaluates every good word, sincere effort and good offices. It closes the door in the face of side disagreements and does not lend an ear to rumours and slanders, while at the same time fully realising the right for self-defence.

Anything contrary or contradictory to these trends, is a lie disseminated by enemies or their lackeys for the purpose of sowing confusion, disrupting the ranks and occupy them with side issues.

"O true believers, if a wicked man come unto you with a tale, inquire strictly into the truth thereof; lest ye hurt people through ignorance, and afterwards repent of what ye have done." (The Inner Apartments - verse 6).

Article Twenty-Six:

In viewing the Palestinian nationalist movements that give allegiance neither to the East nor the West, in this positive way, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not refrain from discussing new situations on the regional or international levels where the Palestinian question is concerned. It does that in such an objective manner revealing the extent of how much it is in harmony or contradiction with the national interests in the light of the Islamic point of view.

C. The Palestinian Liberation Organization:

Article Twenty-Seven:

The Palestinian Liberation Organization is the closest to the heart of the Islamic Resistance Movement. It contains the father and the brother, the next of kin and the friend. The Moslem does not estrange himself from his father, brother, next of kin or friend. Our homeland is one, our situation is one, our fate is one and the enemy is a joint enemy to all of us.

Because of the situations surrounding the formation of the Organization, of the ideological confusion prevailing in the Arab world as a result of the ideological invasion under whose influence the Arab world has fallen since the defeat of the Crusaders and which was, and still is, intensified through orientalists, missionaries and imperialists, the Organization adopted the idea of the secular state. And that it how we view it.

Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology. Attitudes, conduct and decisions stem from ideologies.

That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.

"Who will be adverse to the religion of Abraham, but he whose mind is infatuated? (The Cow - verse 130).

The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies.

Until such a day, and we pray to Allah that it will be soon, the Islamic Resistance Movement's stand towards the PLO is that of the son towards his father, the brother towards his brother, and the relative to relative, suffers his pain and supports him in confronting the enemies, wishing him to be wise and well-guided.

"Stand by your brother, for he who is brotherless is like the fighter who goes to battle without arms. One's cousin is the wing one flies with - could the bird fly without wings?"

D. Arab and Islamic Countries:

Article Twenty-Eight:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.

As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

E. Nationalist and Religious Groupings, Institutions, Intellectuals, The Arab and Islamic World:

The Islamic Resistance Movement hopes that all these groupings will side with it in all spheres, would support it, adopt its stand and solidify its activities and moves, work towards rallying support for it so that the Islamic people will be a base and a stay for it, supplying it with strategic depth an all human material and informative spheres, in time and in place. This should be done through the convening of solidarity conferences, the issuing of explanatory bulletins, favourable articles and booklets, enlightening the masses regarding the Palestinian issue, clarifying what confronts it and the conspiracies woven around it. They should mobilize the Islamic nations, ideologically, educationally and culturally, so that these peoples would be equipped to perform their role in the decisive battle of liberation, just as they did when they vanquished the Crusaders and the Tatars and saved human civilization. Indeed, that is not difficult for Allah.

"Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty." (The Dispute - verse 21).

Article Thirty:

Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.

Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.

"Whosoever mobilises a fighter for the sake of Allah is himself a fighter. Whosoever supports the relatives of a fighter, he himself is a fighter." (related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, Abu-Dawood and al-Tarmadhi).

F. Followers of Other Religions: The Islamic Resistance Movement Is A Humanistic Movement:

Article Thirty-One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).

Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."

"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

The Attempt to Isolate the Palestinian People:

Article Thirty-Two:

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one's country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for "the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like."

The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.

"..and we have put enmity and hatred between them, until the day of resurrection. So often as they shall kindle a fire of war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).

Article Thirty-Three:

The Islamic Resistance Movement, being based on the common coordinated and interdependent conceptions of the laws of the universe, and flowing in the stream of destiny in confronting and fighting the enemies in defence of the Moslems and Islamic civilization and sacred sites, the first among which is the Aqsa Mosque, urges the Arab and Islamic peoples, their governments, popular and official groupings, to fear Allah where their view of the Islamic Resistance Movement and their dealings with it are concerned. They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah's purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad. Their cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.

"And Allah will certainly assist him who shall be on his side: for Allah is strong and mighty." (The Pilgrimage - verse 40).

The Testimony of History

Across History in Confronting the Invaders:

Article Thirty-Four:

Palestine is the navel of the globe and the crossroad of the continents. Since the dawn of history, it has been the target of expansionists. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, had himself pointed to this fact in the noble Hadith in which he called on his honourable companion, Ma'adh ben-Jabal, saying: O Ma'ath, Allah throw open before you, when I am gone, Syria, from Al-Arish to the Euphrates. Its men, women and slaves will stay firmly there till the Day of Judgement. Whoever of you should choose one of the Syrian shores, or the Holy Land, he will be in constant struggle till the Day of Judgement."

Expansionists have more than once put their eye on Palestine which they attacked with their armies to fulfill their designs on it. Thus it was that the Crusaders came with their armies, bringing with them their creed and carrying their Cross. They were able to defeat the Moslems for a while, but the Moslems were able to retrieve the land only when they stood under the wing of their religious banner, united their word, hallowed the name of Allah and surged out fighting under the leadership of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi. They fought for almost twenty years and at the end the Crusaders were defeated and Palestine was liberated.

"Say unto those who believe not, Ye shall be overcome, and thrown together into hell; an unhappy couch it shall be." (The Family of Imran - verse 12).

This is the only way to liberate Palestine. There is no doubt about the testimony of history. It is one of the laws of the universe and one of the rules of existence. Nothing can overcome iron except iron. Their false futile creed can only be defeated by the righteous Islamic creed. A creed could not be fought except by a creed, and in the last analysis, victory is for the just, for justice is certainly victorious.

"Our word hath formerly been given unto our servants the apostles; that they should certainly be assisted against the infidels, and that our armies should surely be the conquerors." (Those Who Rank Themselves - verses 171-172).

Article Thirty-Five:

The Islamic Resistance Movement views seriously the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi and the rescuing of Palestine from their hands, as well as the defeat of the Tatars at Ein Galot, breaking their power at the hands of Qataz and Al-Dhaher Bivers and saving the Arab world from the Tatar onslaught which aimed at the destruction of every meaning of human civilization. The Movement draws lessons and examples from all this. The present Zionist onslaught has also been preceded by Crusading raids from the West and other Tatar raids from the East. Just as the Moslems faced those raids and planned fighting and defeating them, they should be able to confront the Zionist invasion and defeat it. This is indeed no problem for the Almighty Allah, provided that the intentions are pure, the determination is true and that Moslems have benefited from past experiences, rid themselves of the effects of ideological invasion and followed the customs of their ancestors.

The Islamic Resistance Movement is Composed of Soldiers:

Article Thirty-Six:

While paving its way, the Islamic Resistance Movement, emphasizes time and again to all the sons of our people, to the Arab and Islamic nations, that it does not seek personal fame, material gain, or social prominence. It does not aim to compete against any one from among our people, or take his place. Nothing of the sort at all. It will not act against any of the sons of Moslems or those who are peaceful towards it from among non-Moslems, be they here or anywhere else. It will only serve as a support for all groupings and organizations operating against the Zionist enemy and its lackeys.

The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organization, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more.

We ask Allah to show us the right course, to make us an example to others and to judge between us and our people with truth. "O Lord, do thou judge between us and our nation with truth; for thou art the best judge." (Al Araf - Verse 89).

 

The last of our prayers will be praise to Allah, the Master of the Universe.

 

[statsman 5469]

15 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

Edited March 13 by statsman
Too damned old to get into internet pissing matches

[Captainant 27667]

17 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

Nothing to do with religion.  It is simple common sense.  Which is at odds with your religion (the church of Cloak Room).

It's almost like you're gleeful to finally be seeing all those Muslims get blown up and have their homes destroyed, simply because you can justify any atrocity with "well Hamas MADE them do it!!!"

Israel is running the colonial playbook on Palestine, and our tax dollars are giving Israel the means to make it overwhelming. 

And we do it for no reason besides your death cults belief in the existence of Israel being a condition to the end of the world that you so deeply crave

[Bevo 13577]

49 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It's almost like you're gleeful to finally be seeing all those Muslims get blown up and have their homes destroyed, simply because you can justify any atrocity with "well Hamas MADE them do it!!!"

Israel is running the colonial playbook on Palestine, and our tax dollars are giving Israel the means to make it overwhelming. 

And we do it for no reason besides your death cults belief in the existence of Israel being a condition to the end of the world that you so deeply crave

[Nivek 16929]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:28 AM, statsman said:

They were quoted by the POTUS and Sec. of Defense. 
 
Everyone understands that the death of even one innocent is a tragedy. Bogus numbers allow the sympathetic world to aim its animus at Israel. A correct understanding of the numbers reveals how evil Hamas is. 
 
Hamas has fortified tunnels under Gaza, built at UN expense. When Israel attacks, Hamas retreats to the tunnels, leaving Gazan civilians outside. Hamas desires Gazan civilian casualties; that’s a strategy for survival. 
 
This is a horrible, awful math, but the calculation can’t be correct without the right data. 

I get that we sometimes anchor to first figures thrown at us.   But sometimes if it is all we got, its all we got.  For example, talk about the size of some ancient warfare and the numbers just do not seem believable.  But it is all that we have of record.  

[Brian Fantana 6687]

Is there actually anything to the mistrust of these numbers based on empirical data/actual intelligence or is it just a general feeling of mistrust because the numbers come from Gaza?

As far as I can tell, the numbers they report have been considered historically reliable by most entities including various major news outlets around the world, our own State Department, Israeli Intelligence, the UN, and various NGOs that track this kind of stuff. I can't find an instance online where the deviation from the reported numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry was more than a few percentage points away from anyone else's numbers.

[statsman 5469]

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Is there actually anything to the mistrust of these numbers based on empirical data/actual intelligence or is it just a general feeling of mistrust because the numbers come from Gaza?

As far as I can tell, the numbers they report have been considered historically reliable by most entities including various major news outlets around the world, our own State Department, Israeli Intelligence, the UN, and various NGOs that track this kind of stuff. I can't find an instance online where the deviation from the reported numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry was more than a few percentage points away from anyone else's numbers.

There is a science to noting bogus numbers. Generally, it comes down to numerical facets (last digit) or the number itself not being normally distributed. The author, Abraham Wyner, explains that. 
 
He also points out that:

Hamas is reporting 30k dead, militants and civilians. 
Hamas reports 70% of the dead as women and children. 
Hamas reports 20% dead as militants. 
 

Does that make any sense? That IDF are more likely to kill women and children than men? That almost all of the men are Hamas militants?

[statsman 5469]

Given that Hamas can’t account for 130 hostages, I don’t get why anyone wants to put much faith in any of their other accounting. 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Give us your numbers then @statsman.

[Laxtonto 12080]

1 hour ago, JohnnyRage said:

Give us your numbers then @statsman.

Potato...

 

Edited March 14 by Laxtonto

[MagicSoccerSpray 1732]

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkgpwhxct