Israel-Hamas war thread

[royiv 9304]

The cynical part of me wonders if IDF did this on purpose to impose more suffering in Gaza knowing that WCK would limit or pull out of Gaza after these attacks. At the same time, I agree with other posters that this is going to do more damage in their PR battle. This pisses me off right good as WCK is one of the best and most effective NGOs out there.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

They've been fucking with aid the entire time, of course they did it on purpose. They're not even trying to feign confusion about their targets here.

[mdmost 43001]

3 minutes ago, royiv said:

The cynical part of me wonders if IDF did this on purpose to impose more suffering in Gaza knowing that WCK would limit or pull out of Gaza after these attacks. At the same time, I agree with other posters that this is going to do more damage in their PR battle. This pisses me off right good as WCK is one of the best and most effective NGOs out there.

Well, that would be a war crime. But hey, what pause has our country given Israel up until this point? They seem determined to do whatever they like in Gaza with little consequence from the international community. 

[locodos 5387]

32 minutes ago, Captainant said:

That's the Raytheon Quality Promise right there

Yeah but Boeing can put a door plug or wheel right on there too

[royiv 9304]

14 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Well, that would be a war crime. But hey, what pause has our country given Israel up until this point? They seem determined to do whatever they like in Gaza with little consequence from the international community. 

Bibi laughs at your war crimes.

[RPM 26319]

Quote

The IDF has stated that it is carrying out a review of the strike “at the highest levels,”

[statsman 5462]

I think it was a horrible screw up. A screw up that was a result of Israel not being capable of completing their war goals. This war, where they attack Hamas in a populated area (where Hamas actually is), and chase all the people away to another area, where Hamas remnants then follow to regroup and prepare for the next attack, is a stupid, failed idea, and events like the WCK are inevitable. 
 
Israel didn’t have the troops and willingness to really eradicate Hamas, in the time frame they have. They are trying to be clever, using advanced weaponry, where something closer to the Red Army taking Berlin was needed (and if you don’t have the manpower and will to do that, you need another strategic goal). 
 
Looks like Hamas will be the winner, because Israel’s plan couldn’t achieve their goal, and Hamas will take over the West Bank in short order. I think things are about to really get ugly. 
 
(PS- I think they need a new government, because a new strategic plan is needed, and new goals. The current one is a failure and sticking with it will just waste more lives). 

Edited April 2 by statsman

[Brian Fantana 6685]

31 minutes ago, statsman said:

I think it was a horrible screw up. A screw up that was a result of Israel not being capable of completing their war goals. This war, where they attack Hamas in a populated area (where Hamas actually is), and chase all the people away to another area, where Hamas remnants then follow to regroup and prepare for the next attack, is a stupid, failed idea, and events like the WCK are inevitable. 
 
Israel didn’t have the troops and willingness to really eradicate Hamas, in the time frame they have. They are trying to be clever, using advanced weaponry, where something closer to the Red Army taking Berlin was needed (and if you don’t have the manpower and will to do that, you need another strategic goal). 
 
Looks like Hamas will be the winner, because Israel’s plan couldn’t achieve their goal, and Hamas will take over the West Bank in short order. I think things are about to really get ugly. 
 
(PS- I think they need a new government, because a new strategic plan is needed, and new goals. The current one is a failure and sticking with it will just waste more lives). 

The WCK vehicles were coordinating with the IDF, following an IDF approved route, and were in a de-conflicted area.

You're embarrassing yourself by bending over backwards this far by trying to rationalize this as a mere mistake. Seriously, fucking stop. It's gross.

[Skipper 6135]

33 minutes ago, statsman said:

I think it was a horrible screw up. A screw up that was a result of Israel not being capable of completing their war goals. 

This.  They didn't intentionally target a Jose Andres aid convoy.  Anyone in a decision making capacity realizes what a massive PR hit this is.  This will be mainstream news all over the US tonight.    If you want to say gross negligence by being way too loose with precision weapons and not having procedures in place to prevent this, I agree, but I bet heads are rolling within the IDF as they realize the ramifications of this kind of negative publicity when they were already starting to lose the PR battle in the West

[statsman 5462]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

The WCK vehicles were coordinating with the IDF, following an IDF approved route, and were in a de-conflicted area.

You're embarrassing yourself by bending over backwards this far by trying to rationalize this as a mere mistake. Seriously, fucking stop. It's gross.

This is my usual approach- as a rule, I am slow to attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. I apply this rule to all factions. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

Just now, statsman said:

This is my usual approach- as a rule, I am slow to attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. I apply this rule to all factions. 

Yeah that's fair enough I guess. It just doesn't stand on its own two legs in my estimation. Especially when you consider they've been hitting foreign aid and the press for 6 months. At some point it stops being an accident.

[gmr548 16576]

19 minutes ago, statsman said:

This is my usual approach- as a rule, I am slow to attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. I apply this rule to all factions. 

Even if it is a mistake - and I agree it's unlikely someone literally said/thought, "Oh look it's perhaps the highest profile aid organization operating in Gaza, let's light'em up!" - it's emblematic of so much more. That's the point.

[Brisketexan 105123]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

Even if it is a mistake - and I agree it's unlikely someone literally said/thought, "Oh look it's perhaps the highest profile aid organization operating in Gaza, let's light'em up!" - it's emblematic of so much more. That's the point.

The fact that while it being a mistake is far more likely, we can't RULE OUT it being an intentional strike to increase suffering in Gaza, highlights what a shitshow this is.

I sympathize with Israel's broad cause of "having a safe refuge for jews."  I think Hamas is shit, and a military response after Oct 7th was warranted.  But Israel has followed the "how to lose all legitimacy and sympathy" script to the letter.  Fuck that shit.  Want to become the monsters that you're fighting?  Then fuck right off.

[bolverk 29671]

The humanitarian in me has to believe it was unintentional because the Israelis are supposed to be the good guys in all this. Still, as pointed out, carelessly killing aid workers (running count even before this is around 200) is emblematic of the continued disregard for international law and human life displayed by the IDF. And, of course, the cynic in me can't say it wasn't unintentional.

Either way, it's certainly having a specific effect.

 

After Strike, Aid Groups in Gaza Are More Fearful Than Ever
“Gaza right now is one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a humanitarian worker,” a spokeswoman for Save the Children said after a strike killed World Central Kitchen workers.

Aid groups in Gaza said on Tuesday that they were more concerned than ever about the safety of their staff members there after seven World Central Kitchen workers were killed in an airstrike, saying that the deaths underscored the growing challenges of meeting Palestinians’ basic needs.

Humanitarian workers have been killed throughout the war in Gaza. Since the war started, 176 workers for UNRWA, the United Nations body that provides aid to Palestinians, have been killed, including in the line of duty, said Juliette Touma, the agency’s director of communications. Several other aid groups say their staff members have been killed in airstrikes.

But the latest deaths have raised new alarms. World Central Kitchen paused its operations there on Tuesday, saying it had coordinated the movements of the convoy that was struck with the Israeli military. The military said it was investigating the episode.

As they assessed their future plans, aid groups urged the Israeli authorities to adhere to the international laws that protect humanitarian workers.

“Everybody feels endangered now,” said Michael Capponi, the founder of Global Empowerment Mission, a nonprofit aid group distributing tents, sleeping bags, medical equipment and food to Palestinians in Gaza.

Mr. Capponi said he was reconsidering his plans to travel to Gaza next week. Some staff members, who had been communicating daily with the World Central Kitchen workers who died, “basically want to pack up and go home now,” he said, though there were no firm plans for them to leave.

“There need to be guarantees to the international N.G.O. community that we are safe doing this work that we do, which is critical,” Mr. Capponi added. He said it was unacceptable that aid workers were killed even after going through the United Nations’ “deconfliction” process, which is supposed to protect humanitarian workers by informing the military about their activities.

Tess Ingram, a UNICEF spokeswoman temporarily based in Gaza, said the notification system that was meant to keep workers safe was not functioning, leaving them vulnerable.

“It underscores what life is like here in Gaza, not just for aid workers but for everybody,” she said. “There’s nowhere safe, even when you do everything right.”

She added that the strike had broader implications for humanitarian groups’ ability to provide food aid. World Central Kitchen was not only feeding Gazans directly, it was also supplying hospitals with meals as well, she said.

Ms. Ingram said she hoped that the strike would “push the world to recognize that what is happening here is not OK.”

Aseel Baidoun, a spokeswoman for Medical Aid for Palestinians, a British group, said her organization was concerned about the safety of its next medical mission to Gaza, slated for later this week. Several members of an aid team were injured in an Israeli strike in January, the group said.

“We thought that armored cars and deconfliction processes would actually protect doctors,” said Ms. Baidoun, who is based in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. “But now we don’t know how to protect our missions and our colleagues.”

Save the Children, which distributes food, water, medical supplies and toiletries in Gaza, also urged the parties of the conflict to adhere to the international laws protecting humanitarian workers. The group said a local staff member was killed in an Israeli airstrike in December.

“The news of the attack is horrific — it’s a nightmare come true for us,” said Soraya Ali, a spokeswoman for the group. “We know unfortunately that Gaza right now is one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a humanitarian worker.”

[Skipper 6135]

Just now, bolverk said:

The humanitarian in me has to believe it was unintentional because the Israelis are supposed to be the good guys in all this. Still, as pointed out, carelessly killing aid workers (running count even before this is around 200) is emblematic of the continued disregard for international law and human life displayed by the IDF. And, of course, the cynic in me can't say it wasn't unintentional.

Occam's razor says it is unintentional because it would be an absolutely idiotic military strategy otherwise considering the need for western support.  The PR hit from this incident will likely be worse than a wayward bomb hitting a school and killing 100 elementary kids.  It's going to be a massive news story. Everyone knows Jose Andres.  Voters on both sides of the aisle go to his restaurants.  There are probably large donors on both sides of the aisle that donate to this specific aid organization.  Hell, Andres could probably request and obtain a sit down with Biden this week over this incident if he wants.  It's a high profile concrete example of what Israel critics have been saying about the way they are conducting this war that can't be easily explained away.  I'm not going to be surprised at all if we look back at this months from now and see this as a turning point in this conflict.

[Brisketexan 105123]

3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Occam's razor says it is unintentional because it would be an absolutely idiotic military strategy otherwise considering the need for western support.

Occam's razor also said it's insane to think that the very group that made the crime of genocide "a thing" in global consciousness is actively and openly pursuing a campaign and goal of genocide, but here we are.

Is a mistake the most LIKELY explanation?  Yeah.  But can you categorically rule out a purposeful strike meant to terrorize (and thus limit) aid to civilians, in furtherance of an Israeli goal to maximize civilian suffering?  Nope. You can't rule that out.  Which means that the current state of Israel - both as-governed and as the people wish (the polling backs this up) - is shit.

Edited April 2 by Brisketexan

[statsman 5462]

Innocents being killed is what makes all wars so tragic. Innocents being killed in a war that you prosecute while knowing you can’t win can be a crime. 
 
I have been (am) on the side of Israel, in this conflict, Hamas being a monstrous and illegitimate force. Eradicating Hamas is a worthwhile goal. I don’t believe Israel has a strategy that can accomplish that goal. It’s not enough to set a goal (eradicate Hamas), apply all your resources (call up all the reservists) and say you have a strategy. You have to evaluate whether your resources are enough. Clearly, they aren’t. Israel should have done a lot more thinking and planning, and less reacting. They have Hamas, they have Hezbollah, they have the West Bank and they have Iran all to deal with. 
 
(I confess my shame at not realizing this until now, when it was clearly a losing strategy in November.)
 
No one (except Iran) wants to hear that Hamas wins. I’m afraid that’s what happens when you pick a losing strategy. 

Edited April 2 by statsman

[Thetexashammer 1062]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Occam's razor also said it's insane to think that the very group that made the crime of genocide "a thing" in global consciousness is actively and openly pursuing a campaign and goal of genocide, but here we are.

Is a mistake the most LIKELY explanation?  Yeah.  But can you categorically rule out a purposeful strike meant to terrorize (and thus limit) aid to civilians, in furtherance of an Israeli goal to maximize civilian suffering?  Nope. You can't rule that out.  Which means that the current state of Israel - both as-governed and as the people wish (the polling backs this up) - is shit.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If you want to convince me the IDF are targeting civilians, I think it would be stupid, for lots of reasons even down to the point of its just a waste of ammo. However, I am sure there is some of that. I understand the logic, there are Israelis who have a burning hate for Palestinians. I would not be surprised or shocked.

If you think Israelis have a burning hate for aid convoys and want to destroy them, and they have no idea of the strategic implications of said targeting, then you've lost the plot. Or more accurately, you are probably an antisemite.

I just rewatched the scene from Band of Brothers where Mularkey meets a Nazi soldier who grew up near him in Washington. They're shooting the shit, Mularkey leaves, next thing you hear is automatic gunfire (killing the unarmed German prisoners). We were still the good guys.

Edited April 2 by Thetexashammer

[statsman 5462]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Occam's razor also said it's insane to think that the very group that made the crime of genocide "a thing" in global consciousness is actively and openly pursuing a campaign and goal of genocide, but here we are.

I think the Germans and Nazis had more to do with making genocide “a thing”. 

[bolverk 29671]

11 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Occam's razor says it is unintentional because it would be an absolutely idiotic military strategy otherwise considering the need for western support.  The PR hit from this incident will likely be worse than a wayward bomb hitting a school and killing 100 elementary kids.  It's going to be a massive news story. Everyone knows Jose Andres.  Voters on both sides of the aisle go to his restaurants.  There are probably large donors on both sides of the aisle that donate to this specific aid organization.  Hell, Andres could probably request and obtain a sit down with Biden this week over this incident if he wants.  It's a high profile concrete example of what Israel critics have been saying about the way they are conducting this war that can't be easily explained away.  I'm not going to be surprised at all if we look back at this months from now and see this as a turning point in this conflict.

Go back up this same page and carefully read both Anastasis's screenshot (#3560) and Hank's link to the Bellincat analysis (#3561). The quotes and analyses are why I can't fully rule it out as unintentional. Was it ordered by the highest echelons of the IDF? Likely no.

Are there perhaps elements/individuals within the IDF who've been more than happy to either indiscriminately/recklessly kill (maybe even target) innocents? Well, we already have a fucking shitload of examples, including hostages themselves.

[Skipper 6135]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Occam's razor also said it's insane to think that the very group that made the crime of genocide "a thing" in global consciousness is actively and openly pursuing a campaign and goal of genocide, but here we are.

Is a mistake the most LIKELY explanation?  Yeah.  But can you categorically rule out a purposeful strike meant to terrorize (and thus limit) aid to civilians, in furtherance of an Israeli goal to maximize civilian suffering?  Nope. You can't rule that out. 

If their actual goal is a complete genocide of the inhabitants of the entire region, this would still be an idiotic decision in furtherance of that goal. Because of the barbaric nature of the October attack, Israel and their methods were going to get the benefit of the doubt from a majority of the West.  I mean pretty much anyone that was old enough to be emotionally impacted from 9/11 will probably always carry some level of bias when it comes to conflicts with Islamic terrorists. And collateral damage can be explained at some level when you have terrorists hiding among civilians.  But the lack of civilian aid was already a growing narrative and now the high profile nature of this attack is going to make a lot of people that might have given the IDF the benefit of the doubt question WTF is going on.  

The reality is a very small percentage of Americans pay as much attention to this conflict as those that read this thread.  But everyone that watches the news tonight will know about and remember this.

Edited April 2 by Skipper

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Go back up this same page and carefully read both Anastasis's screenshot (#3560) and Hank's link to the Bellincat analysis (#3561). The quotes and analyses are why I can't fully rule it out as unintentional. Was it ordered by the highest echelons of the IDF? Likely no.

Are there perhaps elements/individuals within the IDF who've been more than happy to either indiscriminately/recklessly kill (maybe even target) innocents? Well, we already have a fucking shitload of examples, including hostages themselves.

This is also pretty much exactly what you get with an obligatory conscript army.

[Brisketexan 105123]

11 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If you want to convince me the IDF are targeting civilians, I think it would be stupid, for lots of reasons even down to the point of its just a waste of ammo. However, I am sure there is some of that. I understand the logic, there are Israelis who have a burning hate for Palestinians. I would not be surprised or shocked.

If you think Israelis have a burning hate for aid convoys and want to destroy them, and they have no idea of the strategic implications of said targeting, then you've lost the plot. Or more accurately, you are probably an antisemite.

I just rewatched the scene from Band of Brothers where Mularkey meets a Nazi soldier who grew up near him in Washington. They're shooting the shit, Mularkey leaves, next thing you hear is automatic gunfire (killing the unarmed German prisoners). We were still the good guys.

Antiemite?  Far from it.  Read my posting history on this subject.

But see the bold.  IF your goal is "drive all Palestinian civilians out of Gaza" - and let's be fucking clear, there are a metric shitton of voices in Israel, including voices in the gov't, who have openly stated that goal - then "starve them out" is an expected action in furtherance of that goal.  And if the people PREVENTING you from starving them out are aid groups, then it's a rational step to terrorize those aid groups into inaction.  You do that by killing them.

Again, do I think that's MOST likely?  No.  Do I think that there are enough people in Israel and the gov't smiling about this development today that we can't rule it out?  Yeah, I do.  Which is its own problem.  When your credibility on a matter has reached the point where "can't rule out openly genocidal intent" is a thing, you've fucked up.

10 minutes ago, statsman said:

I think the Germans and Nazis had more to do with making genocide “a thing”. 

My point was not that the ACT of genocide became a thing, but that the CRIME of genocide, as in "let's make this thing a violation of International Law, and take action accordingly if it occurs again," became a thing.  "Crimes Against Humanity" is a concept born of the lessons of the Holocaust.

8 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If their actual goal is a complete genocide of the inhabitants of the entire region, this would still be an idiotic decision in furtherance of that goal. Because of the barbaric nature of the October attack, Israel and their methods were going to get the benefit of the doubt from a majority of the West.  I mean pretty much anyone that was old enough to be emotionally impacted from 9/11 will probably always carry some level of bias when it comes to conflicts with Islamic terrorists. And collateral damage can be explained at some level when you have terrorists hiding among civilians.  But the lack of civilian aid was already a growing narrative and now the high profile nature of this attack is going to make a lot of people that might have given the IDF the benefit of the doubt question WTF is going on.  

The reality is a very small percentage of Americans pay as much attention to this conflict as those that read this thread.  But everyone that watches the news tonight will know about and remember this.

The bolded is correct.  Also, never rule out something totally fucking idiotic.  They've ALREADY gone way down the idiotic road.  At this point, what's one step further?

[Brian Fantana 6685]

9 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If you want to convince me the IDF are targeting civilians, I think it would be stupid, for lots of reasons even down to the point of its just a waste of ammo. However, I am sure there is some of that. I understand the logic, there are Israelis who have a burning hate for Palestinians. I would not be surprised or shocked.

If you think Israelis have a burning hate for aid convoys and want to destroy them, and they have no idea of the strategic implications of said targeting, then you've lost the plot. Or more accurately, you are probably an antisemite.

I just rewatched the scene from Band of Brothers where Mularkey meets a Nazi soldier who grew up near him in Washington. They're shooting the shit, Mularkey leaves, next thing you hear is automatic gunfire (killing the unarmed German prisoners). We were still the good guys.

The problem is this kind of thing happens with such frequency that at some point it becomes incredibly unlikely to be an accident. This is only the latest group of foreign aid workers and/or press to be killed by the IDF either negligently or intentionally since Oct. 7th. It just so happens that this time it happened to a US-based organization that is entirely above reproach.

It's funny you say some of this when Netanyahu has repeatedly claimed to not give a single shit about the optics, and is pushing forward as fast as possible in order to keep his own ass in power and out of prison.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But see the bold.  IF your goal is "drive all Palestinian civilians out of Gaza" - and let's be fucking clear, there are a metric shitton of voices in Israel, including voices in the gov't, who have openly stated that goal - then "starve them out" is an expected action in furtherance of that goal.  And if the people PREVENTING you from starving them out are aid groups, then it's a rational step to terrorize those aid groups into inaction.  You do that by killing them.

Yep. And it's working. WCK is now going to be too afraid to operate in Gaza. It's a huge blow to Gazan aid overall and that's what makes me believe it's intentional.

[wildcat09 29353]

It's very obviously not a fucking mistake. Jesus christ.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

42 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's very obviously not a fucking mistake. Jesus christ.

Have you ever been in a TOC? Have you ever commanded men in war? How do you know what goes on inside a military command? Please tell us.

[statsman 5462]

22 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Have you ever been in a TOC? Have you ever commanded men in war? How do you know what goes on inside a military command? Please tell us.

You might have to remind him of the time we accidentally bombed the Chinese embassy. 
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade

Fog of war, indeed. Three Chinese journalists killed, and many false reports that it was deliberate. 

Edited April 2 by statsman

[Foosters 17856]

9 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Have you ever been in a TOC? Have you ever commanded men in war? How do you know what goes on inside a military command? Please tell us.

Trust the corch!

[statsman 5462]

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-iran-conflict-threatens-to-spill-into-open-warfare-1bd60453?st=hif5r8w81rfcoa3&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink

[texasdago 7573]

13 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Have you ever been in a TOC? Have you ever commanded men in war? How do you know what goes on inside a military command? Please tell us.

I always skip the table of contents 

[Ted Lange 16085]

Hamas was hiding in WCK vehicles*!

-Bibi

 

*Probably

[Thetexashammer 1062]

Kill authority is delegated from the CDR in Chief down to operational level commanders. If this were the US, the investigation would likely recommend these types of authorizations go to a higher level of commander. Higher level have a different education, and thus more sensitivity to politics. 

Personally, I would set the policy so you don't attack third parties under any circumstances. However, that is likely to be the exact reason the high value Hamas target was intending to travel with WCK in the first place. So it's like every other fucking war dilemma. You don't win, not matter what you do. Nobody wins in war.

Edited April 2 by Thetexashammer

[Captainant 27660]

Just now, Thetexashammer said:

Nobody wins in war.

Raytheon and Lockheed definitely win

[Brian Fantana 6685]

29 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Kill authority is delegated from the CDR in Chief down to operational level commanders. If this were the US, the investigation would likely recommend these types of authorizations go to a higher level of commander. Higher level have a different education, and thus more sensitivity to politics. 

Personally, I would set the policy so you don't attack third parties under any circumstances. However, that is likely to be the exact reason the high value Hamas target was intending to travel with WCK in the first place. So it's like every other fucking war dilemma. You don't win, not matter what you do. Nobody wins in war.

Just quoting this for later so this utter piece of shit can't deny he was claiming WCK was sheltering Hamas.

[Foosters 17856]

 

38 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

However, that is likely to be the exact reason the high value Hamas target was intending to travel with WCK in the first place. 

 

2 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

hmm

[Thetexashammer 1062]

5 minutes ago, Foosters said:

 

 

hmm

It is not an extraordinary claim. To the contrary, it is the explicit hamas strategy. It's not new news, they love human shields, sacrificing their women and children. Their political elements and last remaining battalions are hiding behind women and children as we speak. 

[Foosters 17856]

Just now, Thetexashammer said:

It is not an extraordinary claim. To the contrary, it is the explicit hamas strategy. It's not new news, they love human shields, sacrificing their women and children. Their political elements and last remaining battalions are hiding behind women and children as we speak. 

Lol, so you don't have any evidence to support your claim? 

Why bother responding? 

 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

Lol, so you don't have any evidence to support your claim? 

Why bother responding? 

 

It's not a controversial thing. They put their military headquarters under a hospital. They've been doing it for decades. It is well established. And again, their last military elements are hiding in Rafah amongst women and children.

[Hagbard Celine 10859]

i just donated a franklin to world central kitchen in memory of zomi frankcom

 

the simulation's matrix glitches are going full aggy

[Brian Fantana 6685]

6 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

It's not a controversial thing. They put their military headquarters under a hospital. They've been doing it for decades. It is well established. And again, their last military elements are hiding in Rafah amongst women and children.

So you're not going to admit you just made that up? "It sounds right in my head" is not evidence of anything, counselor.

[Foosters 17856]

9 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

It's not a controversial thing. They put their military headquarters under a hospital. They've been doing it for decades. It is well established. And again, their last military elements are hiding in Rafah amongst women and children.

So, no? No evidence?

[Brisketexan 105123]

9 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

It is not an extraordinary claim. To the contrary, it is the explicit hamas strategy.

As is my postulate that the IDF strike against WCK may have been intentional because multiple voices within Israeli leadership and the IDF have said that making Gaza unlivable for Palestinians so as to drive them out is their goal thus is likewise "not an extraordinary claim."

Quote

The Israeli soldiers stand rifles in hand, arm over shoulder, speaking to the camera. Behind them is the shell of a Gazan building.

“We are here adding light after the black sabbath that the people of Israel had,” one of the men says in the video, circulating on Telegram. “We are occupying, deporting, and settling. Occupying, deporting, and settling. Did you hear that Bibi? Occupying, deporting, and settling.”

.....

“We must promote a solution to encourage the emigration of the residents of Gaza,” far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said on January 1.

.....

Gila Gamliel, Israel’s intelligence minister and a member of Likud, suggested in November that Israel “promote the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians in Gaza, for humanitarian reasons, outside of the Strip.”

The fact that you see fit to attribute bad acts to open and admitted bad actors....but only when those bad actors are Palestinian...is embarrassing.

One can support the broad Israeli cause while also seeing and calling out the current shitty strategy of forcing ALL Palestinians from Gaza, using force and threats of violence to do so.  Bad shit is bad shit. I don't care if it's your pal doing it.

[wildcat09 29353]

Thats one hell of a fucking accident.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

16 minutes ago, Foosters said:

So, no? No evidence?

I am inclined to do the same. I have always like what they do. It's terrible they are caught up in this. LOL I was trying to respond to the post about donating to WCK.

Edited April 2 by Thetexashammer

[Thetexashammer 1062]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

As is my postulate that the IDF strike against WCK may have been intentional because multiple voices within Israeli leadership and the IDF have said that making Gaza unlivable for Palestinians so as to drive them out is their goal thus is likewise "not an extraordinary claim."

The fact that you see fit to attribute bad acts to open and admitted bad actors....but only when those bad actors are Palestinian...is embarrassing.

One can support the broad Israeli cause while also seeing and calling out the current shitty strategy of forcing ALL Palestinians from Gaza, using force and threats of violence to do so.  Bad shit is bad shit. I don't care if it's your pal doing it.

My advice is almost always the same. Don't do war. I said it in 1991. I said it in 2003. I said it about Afghanistan. Nobody listens to me.

[Schulz2.0 28951]

The problem with giving Israel the benefit of the doubt here, is that Israel keeps doing shit that requires giving them the benefit of the doubt. At a certain point it looks like a nefarious pattern.

[Brisketexan 105123]

1 minute ago, Thetexashammer said:

My advice is almost always the same. Don't do war. I said it in 1991. I said it in 2003. I said it about Afghanistan. Nobody listens to me.

Cop out.  Hamas fucked up by committing war crimes.  And a shitload of Palestinians continue to fuck up by siding with Hamas.  Israel is fucking up by committing war crimes.  And a shitload of Israelis continue to fuck up by siding with Israel in committing those war crimes.

It's not hard.  Have a standard.  Then apply it objectively.  Given the stated goals of significant Israeli leaders and combatants, it is not unreasonable to be open to the possibility that "targeting aid workers who make life tolerable for the Gazans we want to drive out of Gaza" was what happened.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cop out.  Hamas fucked up by committing war crimes.  And a shitload of Palestinians continue to fuck up by siding with Hamas.  Israel is fucking up by committing war crimes.  And a shitload of Israelis continue to fuck up by siding with Israel in committing those war crimes.

It's not hard.  Have a standard.  Then apply it objectively.  Given the stated goals of significant Israeli leaders and combatants, it is not unreasonable to be open to the possibility that "targeting aid workers who make life tolerable for the Gazans we want to drive out of Gaza" was what happened.

The facts don't warrant your conclusion. IDF is working with Egypt, the US, and many NGO to coordinate the delivery of humanitarian aid. A single event is not equal to a strategic decision.

Edited April 2 by Thetexashammer

[Hagbard Celine 10859]

7 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

The problem with giving Israel the benefit of the doubt here, is that Israel keeps doing shit that requires giving them the benefit of the doubt. At a certain point it looks like a nefarious pattern.

I supported Netanyahu on this war up until today.  Of course, I also think he masterminded 9/11, so with my opinion, YMMV.