Israel-Hamas war thread

[Welshy 907]

Look. I'm about to say some crazy shit. Stay with me.

...how about Israel keeps going after Hamas...

BUT..., doesn't kill random Palestinians?

Has anyone thought of that? 

 

[atomheartbevo 89708]

1 hour ago, Welshy said:

Look. I'm about to say some crazy shit. Stay with me.

...how about Israel keeps going after Hamas...

BUT..., doesn't kill random Palestinians?

Has anyone thought of that? 

[Welshy 907]

It could work. with a little help from my friends.

 

 

 

[Schulz2.0 28960]

[CHIEF 5092]

Wow. Twelve hours between between the last post and the one before, while protest threads have several posts per minute. The IDF could invade Rafah, and no American would know it for 48 hours. The protests have completely derailed what is currently going on in Gaza. Americans have to have the shortest attention span in history.

CHIEF

[Bevo 13578]

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Wow. Twelve hours between between the last post and the one before, while protest threads have several posts per minute. The IDF could invade Rafah, and no American would know it for 48 hours. The protests have completely derailed what is currently going on in Gaza. Americans have to have the shortest attention span in history.

CHIEF

What did you say?

[MagicSoccerSpray 1732]

But,But,But Jackboots bootlickers and Fascists ohmigawd!1!

At least it got the trolls and CR pieces of shit away from this thread for a time.

[bolverk 29683]

@MagicSoccerSpray

Not a lot of news out of Gaza right now. Here's a couple of quick stories on the obstacles of getting aid to people on the brink of starvation.

 

Quote

 

Jordan says Israeli settlers attacked Jordanian aid convoys on way to Gaza

DUBAI, May 1 (Reuters) - Jordan's foreign ministry said some Israeli settlers attacked two of its humanitarian aid convoys as they made their way toward the Gaza Strip on Wednesday.

Both convoys managed to continue on their journey and reach their destination in war-devastated Gaza, the ministry added in a statement. Such a route to the Gaza Strip would have taken them through the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Israel.

"Two Jordanian aid convoys carrying food, flour and other humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip were attacked by settlers," the ministry said, without giving details of what happened.

Honenu, an Israeli legal aid agency, said four men who had "blocked aid trucks going to Gaza" as they were passing near the West Bank settlement of Ma'ale Adumim were arrested by Israeli police.

The Jordanian government condemned the incident and said it held Israeli authorities fully responsible for ensuring the protection of aid convoys and international organisations.

Jordan has been air-dropping aid and sending convoys westward overland to Palestinians in Gaza throughout the war between Israel and Gaza's ruling Palestinian Islamist group Hamas that erupted on Oct. 7.

The U.S. has been pushing Israel to take steps to improve the flow of humanitarian aid to Gaza, where Israeli bombardments and invasion have left a wasteland with most of the 2.3 million population displaced and at risk of famine and disease.

One of Wednesday's Jordanian convoys, consisting of 31 trucks, was bound for the Erez crossing into north Gaza and the other, with 48 trucks, was headed for the Kerem Shalom crossing into southern Gaza, the Jordanian foreign ministry said.

 

 

Quote

 

Israel allows trucks from newly reopened Erez crossing into Gaza after U.S. pressure

EREZ CROSSING, Israel May 1 (Reuters) - Israel reopened the sole crossing on the northern edge of the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, allowing aid trucks to pass through the Erez checkpoint following U.S. demands to do more to address the growing humanitarian crisis.
Reopening the Erez crossing has been one of the main pleas of international aid agencies for months, to alleviate hunger which is believed to be most severe among the hundreds of thousands of civilians in the enclave's northern sector.

The Israeli government opened the crossing point on the day of a visit by U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and called for more humanitarian aid deliveries into the territory.

The Erez crossing, primarily used for foot traffic, had remained closed since it was destroyed during the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7 that precipitated the war.
Communities on Gaza's northern edge were the first to be stormed by Israeli forces at the start of the war last year, and have been largely reduced to ruins. Aid agencies say they have faced difficulty reaching the area with food and medicine transported from other parts of Gaza across the war zone.

Israel announced it would reopen Erez last month, a few days after its forces killed a group of humanitarian workers delivering food aid in Gaza in air strikes that brought international condemnation. Israel apologised for those air strikes; Washington, its closest ally, said further support for the war would depend on improving aid access.

Colonel Moshe Tetro, head of Israel's Coordination and Liaison Administration for Gaza, said he hoped the crossing would be open every day, and help reach a target of 500 aid trucks entering Gaza daily. That would be in line with pre-war supplies entering the enclave and far more than it has received during the last seven months.

"This is only one step of the measures that we took in the last few weeks," he told reporters.

A convoy of Jordanian aid trucks heading for the Erez crossing was attacked by Israeli settlers, but managed to continue on, Jordan's foreign ministry said on Wednesday.

The U.S. special envoy for humanitarian issues warned last month the risk of famine throughout war-devastated Gaza was very high and called for more to be done to get aid into the northern part of the tiny, densely populated territory.

 

 

 

[lucious leftfoot 126]

 

[CHIEF 5092]

I don't understand why some Western Democracies and wealthy Arab states can't get together and purchase land in the empty area on the Mediterranean in the Sanai Peninsula, south of Rafah. Offer to keep Egypt healthy stocks of wheat and other food items, the Ukranian War has really caused some instability in their food supply. 

Set up a port for humanitarian aid, free from Israeli controlled Gaza, and build a desalinization plant for drinking water and agricultural irrigation. If the British bought land for displaced Jews in 1948, surely it can be done again, if the pot is sweetened enough for Egypt.

CHIEF

[rage-a-holic 4402]

1 minute ago, CHIEF said:

I don't understand why some Western Democracies and wealthy Arab states can't get together and purchase land in the empty area on the Mediterranean in the Sanai Peninsula, south of Rafah. Offer to keep Egypt healthy stocks of wheat and other food items, the Ukranian War has really caused some instability in their food supply. 

Set up a port for humanitarian aid, free from Israeli controlled Gaza, and build a desalinization plant for drinking water and agricultural irrigation. If the British bought land for displaced Jews in 1948, surely it can be done again, if the pot is sweetened enough for Egypt.

CHIEF

The Arab states don't like Palestinians and don't want them in their backyard. They're just fine with Palestine being a perpetual irritant to Israel.

[CHIEF 5092]

9 minutes ago, rage-a-holic said:

The Arab states don't like Palestinians and don't want them in their backyard. They're just fine with Palestine being a perpetual irritant to Israel.

I know they don't like them. I just wonder if Egypt could be paid enough to tolerate them. You would still have Hezbollah as a perpetual irritant.

CHIEF

[InkaUtexas 25955]

You can bring in food, water is an issue. And basically you create another MASSIVE refugee camp in a country with already an unemployment problem.

 

[CHIEF 5092]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:36 PM, CHIEF said:

 I think Israel offered feeling that Hamas is stupid enough to reject it. If they do reject it, Israel will try to gain sympathy and lessen criticism of their actions. If Hamas doesn't care about their civilians and any humanitarian aid, why should we.

CHIEF 

Well, sure enough, it sounds like Hamas' counteroffer is going to scuttle the US brokered plan:

CHIEF

[956 Worldwide 34715]

4 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I don't understand why some Western Democracies and wealthy Arab states can't get together and purchase land in the empty area on the Mediterranean in the Sanai Peninsula, south of Rafah. Offer to keep Egypt healthy stocks of wheat and other food items, the Ukranian War has really caused some instability in their food supply. 

Set up a port for humanitarian aid, free from Israeli controlled Gaza, and build a desalinization plant for drinking water and agricultural irrigation. If the British bought land for displaced Jews in 1948, surely it can be done again, if the pot is sweetened enough for Egypt.

CHIEF

No countries are going to allow Israel to solve their problem via ethnic cleansing and passing the bill to other countries, which is what that would be.  We bombed Serbia for trying something similar. 

[MagicSoccerSpray 1732]

13 hours ago, CHIEF said:

I know they don't like them. I just wonder if Egypt could be paid enough to tolerate them. You would still have Hezbollah as a perpetual irritant.

CHIEF

Hezbollah is Shiite, the Arabs don't like them either.

[bolverk 29683]

Israeli Officials Weigh Sharing Power With Arab States in Postwar Gaza
Though likely to displease both Israel’s right wing and many Arab states, it signals that Israel is thinking about the future, and could inform future talks.

For months, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has avoided detailed public discussion about Gaza’s postwar future. Trying to placate both his far-right allies, who seek to rebuild Israeli settlements in Gaza, and Israel’s foreign partners, who want Gaza returned to Palestinian governance, Mr. Netanyahu has stopped short of any specific declaration.

Behind the scenes, however, senior officials in his office have been weighing an expansive plan for postwar Gaza, in which Israel would offer to share oversight of the territory with an alliance of Arab countries, including Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, as well as the United States, according to three Israeli officials and five people who have discussed the plan with members of the Israeli government.

According to that proposal, Israel would do so in exchange for normalized relations between itself and Saudi Arabia, according to the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity given the sensitivity of the matter.

Far-right members of Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition are almost certain to dismiss such an idea, and so are the Arab countries mentioned as possible participants. But it is the clearest sign yet that officials at the highest levels of Israel’s government are thinking about Gaza’s postwar future, despite saying little in public, and could be a starting point in future negotiations.

The disclosure comes against the backdrop of intense international efforts to get Israel and Hamas to agree to a cease-fire that could eventually become a permanent truce, and it follows growing pressure on Israel to plan for what comes next. Israel’s reluctance to determine how to govern Gaza has created a power vacuum in much of the territory, leading to lawlessness and worsening the dire humanitarian situation.

Arab officials and analysts have called the power-sharing plan unworkable because it does not create an explicit path toward a Palestinian state, which the Emirati and Saudi governments have said is a prerequisite for their involvement in postwar planning. But others have cautiously welcomed the proposal because it at least suggests greater flexibility among Israeli leaders than their public statements suggest.

cont'd:

Spoiler

Under the proposal, the Arab-Israeli alliance, working with the United States, would appoint Gazan leaders to redevelop the devastated territory, overhaul its education system and maintain order. After between seven and 10 years, the alliance would allow Gazans to vote on whether to be absorbed into a united Palestinian administration that would govern in both Gaza and the Israeli-occupied West Bank, according to the proposal. In the meantime, the plan suggests, the Israeli military could continue to operate inside Gaza.

The proposal does not explicitly say whether that united administration would constitute a sovereign Palestinian state, or if it would include the Palestinian Authority, which administers parts of the West Bank. Publicly, Prime Minister Netanyahu has rejected the idea of full Palestinian sovereignty and all but ruled out the involvement of the Palestinian Authority.

The Israeli prime minister’s office declined to comment.

The proposal lacks detail and has not been formally adopted by the Israeli government, which publicly has presented only a vaguer vision under which Israel would retain greater control over postwar Gaza.

Emirati and Saudi officials and analysts said the new proposal would not secure the involvement of Arab states like Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E., particularly because it stopped short of guaranteeing Palestinian sovereignty and would permit continued Israeli military operations inside Gaza. The Saudi government has said it will not normalize ties with Israel unless Israeli leaders take irrevocable steps toward creating a Palestinian state.

“The details need to be more explicitly laid out in a manner that is ‘irreversible,’” said Ali Shihabi, a Saudi commentator considered close to the Saudi royal court. “The problem is the Israelis have a habit of hiding behind ambiguous terms, so I think the Saudi government would be looking for such clarity.”

Still, the proposal is the most detailed plan for postwar Gaza that Israeli officials are known to have discussed, and parts of it align with ideas articulated by Arab leaders both in public and in private.

Thomas R. Nides, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel who has been consulted on the plan, said the proposal was significant because it revealed internal Israeli thinking.

“It shows that despite the Israeli government’s public posture, behind the scenes Israeli officials are thinking seriously about what a postwar Gaza would look like,” Mr. Nides said. “Obviously the devil is in the details, which may not be enough to coax Arab partners like the U.A.E. to engage in the plan. And nothing can happen until the hostages are released and a cease-fire starts.”

The disclosure of the plan comes amid renewed efforts to seal a truce between Israel and Hamas.

A group of businessmen, most of them Israeli, some of whom are close to Mr. Netanyahu, drew up the plan in November. It was first formally proposed to Israeli officials in Mr. Netanyahu’s office in December, according to one of the government officials.

Two of the officials said that the plan was still under consideration at the highest levels of Israel’s government, though it cannot be put in place until after Hamas is defeated and the remaining hostages in Gaza are released.

Hamas remains in full control of parts of southern Gaza, despite a devastating Israeli military campaign that has killed more than 34,000 people, according to officials there; brought parts of the territory to the brink of famine; and left much of Gaza in ruins.

The businessmen, who asked not to be named in order not to jeopardize their ability to promote the idea, said that they had briefed officials from several Arab and Western governments, including the United States, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E., on the plan.

It has also been shown to Tony Blair, the former British prime minister who runs an institute advising the Saudi government on modernization projects. A Palestinian businessman, who asked not to be named in order to protect his relatives from retribution in Gaza, also has been involved in promoting the idea to American officials.

Asked about the plan, the U.A.E. foreign ministry said in a statement that the Emirati government “will not participate in any reconstruction effort in Gaza until there exists an agreement on a road map for a political solution to the conflict, which includes a transparent, timely and binding path for all parties and that leads to the establishment of the two-state solution, with an independent Palestinian state.”

A Saudi official, speaking on condition of anonymity to conform with government protocol, dismissed the proposal because it did not create a “credible and irreversible pathway” toward Palestinian statehood or ensure the Palestinian Authority’s involvement. The official also denied that the Saudi authorities had previously been made aware of the plan.

A spokesman for the Egyptian government declined to comment.

The aim of the businessmen is to win international support for the idea in order to persuade Mr. Netanyahu that it would be worth his embarking on the difficult task of winning domestic backing for it.

Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition government could collapse if he formally backed a plan that did not conclusively rule out the creation of a Palestinian state. Far-right members of his coalition strongly oppose Palestinian sovereignty and want to re-establish Israeli settlements in Gaza. They have threatened to bring down the government if Mr. Netanyahu ends the war in Gaza without ousting Hamas.

Polling shows that a majority of Israelis also oppose the creation of Palestinian state, which many say would reward Hamas for leading terrorist attacks that killed some 1,200 people on Oct. 7, during the cross-border raid on Israel that started the war.

Wary of both collapsing his government and losing support in a subsequent election campaign, Mr. Netanyahu has repeatedly voiced his opposition to a Palestinian state in recent months, pledging to retain Israeli control over the West Bank and Gaza.

But analysts and some of his allies believe that he would be prepared to leave open the notional possibility of Palestinian sovereignty if it allowed him to seal a landmark normalization deal with Saudi Arabia.

Forging diplomatic ties with the most influential Arab state would allow Mr. Netanyahu to restore some of his political legacy, which has been tarnished because the Hamas-led raid on Israel, the deadliest single attack in Israeli history, occurred under his watch.

“He wants this legacy,” said Nadav Shtrauchler, an Israeli political analyst and former strategist for the prime minister.

“On the other hand, one, he doesn’t believe in the two-state solution. Two, he cannot pitch it to his crowd,” Mr. Shtrauchler added.

 

[Frank Drebin 5643]

What should have been Israel's battle plan after October 7?  How should they deal with human shields?

[bolverk 29683]

UN Human Rights Chief deplores harrowing killings of children and women in Rafah

GENEVA (23 April 2024) – UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk today decried a series of Israeli strikes on Rafah in the past few days that killed mostly children and women, repeating his warning against a full-scale incursion on an area where 1.2 million civilians have been forcibly cornered.

Such an operation would lead to further breaches of international humanitarian law and international human rights law, he said. It would risk more deaths, injuries and displacement on a large scale – even further atrocity crimes, for which those responsible would be held accountable. Already in March, the Security Council had demanded an immediate ceasefire.

“The world’s leaders stand united on the imperative of protecting the civilian population trapped in Rafah,” the High Commissioner said.

“The latest images of a premature child taken from the womb of her dying mother, of the adjacent two houses where 15 children and five women were killed - this is beyond warfare.”

On 19 April, an apartment building was hit in Tal Al Sultan area in Rafah, killing nine Palestinians, including six children and two women. Another strike on two adjacent houses in At Tanour area in eastern Rafah on 20 April reportedly killed 20 Palestinians – 15 children and five women. A strike on As Shabora Camp in Rafah on the same day reportedly left four dead, including a girl and a pregnant woman.

As of 22 April, according to the authorities in Gaza, of the 34,151 Palestinians killed in Gaza, 14,685 have been children and 9,670 women. Another 77,084 have been injured, and over 7,000 others are assumed to be under the rubble.

“Every 10 minutes a child is killed or wounded. They are protected under the laws of war, and yet they are ones who are disproportionately paying the ultimate price in this war,” said Türk. 

Türk said he was horrified by the destruction of An Nasser Medical Complex and Al Shifa Medical Complex and the reported discovery of mass graves in and around these locations. He called for independent, effective and transparent investigations into the deaths.

“Given the prevailing climate of impunity, this should include international investigators,” he added. “Hospitals are entitled to very special protection under international humanitarian law. And the intentional killing of civilians, detainees, and others who are hors de combat is a war crime.”

The High Commissioner said the unspeakable suffering caused by the fighting - alongside the resulting misery and destruction, starvation and disease, and the risk of wider conflict - must end once and for all. He reiterated his call for an immediate ceasefire, the release of hostages and those held in arbitrary detention, and the unfettered flow of humanitarian aid.

At the same time, Türk said grave human rights violations were continuing unabated in the occupied West Bank. Despite international condemnation of massive settler attacks from 12-14 April facilitated by the Israeli Security Forces (ISF), settler violence has continued with the support, protection, and participation of the ISF.

During a 50-hour long operation into Nur Shams refugee camp and Tulkarem city starting on 18 April, the ISF deployed ground troops, bulldozers and drones, and sealed the camp. Fourteen Palestinians were killed, three of them children. Ten members of the ISF were hurt.

The UN Human Rights Office received reports that several Palestinians were unlawfully killed and that the ISF used unarmed Palestinians to shield their forces from attack and killed others in apparent extrajudicial executions. Dozens were reportedly detained and ill-treated. The ISF inflicted unprecedented and apparently wanton destruction on the camp and its infrastructure.

On 20 April, the ISF or settlers shot and killed a 50-year-old Palestinian ambulance driver. The ambulance was evacuating two Palestinians injured by live ammunition during an attack by settlers, who were accompanied by the ISF, in As Sawiya, Nablus.

[Anastasis 23475]

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

GENEVA (23 April 2024) – UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk today decried a series of Israeli strikes on Rafah in the past few days that killed mostly children and women, repeating his warning against a full-scale incursion on an area where 1.2 million civilians have been forcibly cornered.

Yeah, but you see, some people that I don't like tried to set up a tent on the South Mall. 

[CHIEF 5092]

Here is a breakdown by Mosab Yousef, the son of one of the founding members of Hamas, on the Hamas mindset. He is anti-Hamas, but understands their goals.

The conflict isn't about politics but religion.

CHIEF

Edited May 4 by CHIEF
Religion

[bolverk 29683]

TL;DR:

• 2nd US official, Cindy McCain, says there's a famine in northern Gaza and says it's spreading south. She calls it a "horror".
• Hamas and Israel are still in negotiations. The latest Israeli offer was well received. Even if Hamas accepts the terms, it will take time to hash out the details. Israel, right now, is a no-show in Cairo, where negotiations have been held. 
• Netanyahu is still determined to invade Rafah, where over a million Palestinians are stuck -- a plan heavily criticized by the international community.
• Children are now dying of malnutrition. Israel isn't providing the necessary security to aid agencies and has only recently opened one border crossing after receiving much criticism. Bottlenecks still persist due to onerous inspections that some interpret as deliberate to delay aid.
• The head of UN human rights says this may constitute war crimes since using starvation as a weapon is a serious violation of international law.
• There are expectations that the International Criminal Court is preparing to issue arrest warrants against senior Israeli officials — including potentially over accusations that they prevented the delivery of aid to civilians in Gaza.
• Recently, there have been some increases in aid delivery, but it remains inadequate.

 

Parts of Gaza in ‘Full-Blown Famine,’ U.N. Aid Official Says
Cindy McCain, the director of the World Food Program, said starvation is entrenched in northern Gaza and is “moving its way south.”

The leader of the World Food Program said that parts of the Gaza Strip are experiencing a “full-blown famine” that is spreading across the territory after almost seven months of war that have made delivering aid extremely challenging.

“There is famine — full-blown famine in the north, and it’s moving its way south,” Cindy McCain, the program’s director, said in excerpts released late Friday of an interview with “Meet The Press.”

Ms. McCain is the second high-profile American leading a U.S. government or U.N. aid effort who has said that there is famine in northern Gaza, although her remarks do not constitute an official declaration, which is a complex bureaucratic process.

She did not explain why an official famine declaration has not been made. But she said her assessment was “based on what we have seen and what we have experienced on the ground.”

The hunger crisis is most severe in the strip’s northern section, a largely lawless and gang ridden area where the Israeli military exercises little or no control. In recent weeks, after Israel faced mounting global pressure to improve dire conditions there, more aid has flowed into the devastated area.

On the diplomatic front, negotiations resumed in Cairo on Saturday aimed at reaching a cease-fire and an agreement to release Israeli and Palestinian hostages. A delegation of Hamas leaders traveled to the Egyptian capital, the Palestinian armed group said.

Over the past few days, Israel and mediators in the talks — Egypt, Qatar and the United States — have awaited Hamas’s response to the latest cease-fire proposal, with Hamas signaling that it was open to discussing the Israeli-approved offer. On Friday, Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken said U.S. officials were waiting to see if Hamas “can take ‘yes’ for an answer on the cease-fire and the release of hostages.”

“The only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a cease-fire is Hamas,” Mr. Blinken said at the McCain Institute in Arizona. “So we look to see what they will do.”

Husam Badran, a senior Hamas official, said in a text message that the group’s representatives came to Cairo “with great positivity” toward the proposed deal. “If there is no agreement, it will be because of Netanyahu alone,” he said, referring to Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister.

For weeks, Mr. Netanyahu has vowed that Israeli forces will invade Rafah, where many of Hamas’s remaining military forces are believed to be arrayed alongside some of its leaders. The plan has prompted widespread criticism, including from the Biden administration, fueled by concern for the safety of more than a million displaced Gazans sheltering there.

Quote

 

As of Saturday, Israel had not dispatched a delegation to Cairo to engage in indirect negotiations with the Hamas officials, as Israeli officials had done in previous rounds of talks, according to two Israeli officials who, following diplomatic protocol, spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Even if Hamas announced in Cairo that it had accepted the proposed deal, a truce was unlikely to be imminent, one of the Israeli officials said. Hamas’s approval would be followed by intensive negotiations to hash out the finer details of a cease-fire, and such talks are likely to be protracted and difficult, the official added.

Ms. McCain said a cease-fire could help ease conditions in Gaza.

“It is horror,” she said on “Meet the Press.” “It is so hard to look at, and it is so hard to hear, also. I am so hoping we can get a cease-fire and begin to feed these people, especially in the north, in a much faster fashion.”

The first American official to say there was famine in Gaza during the conflict was Samantha Power, the director of the U.S. Agency for International Development, who made her remarks in congressional testimony last month.

Ms. McCain, the widow of Senator John McCain, was appointed by President Biden as the American ambassador to the U.N. Agencies for Food and Agriculture in 2021 and became head of the World Food Program, a U.N. agency, last year.

An official declaration of famine is made by a United Nations agency, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, and the government of the country where the famine is taking place. It is unclear what local authority might have the power to do that in Gaza. Declarations, which are based on measured rates of hunger, malnutrition and death over short periods, are rare. But for aid groups, a famine elevates one crisis above competing disasters and helps them raise money to respond.

Gaza has been gripped by what experts have called a severe human-made hunger crisis. Israel’s bombardment and restrictions in the territory have made delivering aid very difficult. The amount of aid entering Gaza has increased recently, but aid groups say it is far from adequate.

For the first three weeks of the war, Israel maintained what it called a “complete siege” of Gaza, with Defense Minister Yoav Gallant saying that “no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel” would be allowed into the territory. The Israeli military also destroyed Gaza’s port, restricted fishing and bombed many of its farms.

Israel eventually loosened the siege but instituted a meticulous inspection process that it says is necessary to ensure that weapons and other supplies do not fall into the hands of Hamas. Aid groups and foreign diplomats have said the inspections create bottlenecks, and have accused Israel of arbitrarily turning away aid, including water filters, solar lights and medical kits that contain scissors, for spurious reasons.

Volker Türk, the U.N. human rights chief, said in a statement last month that Israel’s policies regarding aid in Gaza could amount to a war crime.

Using starvation of civilians as a weapon is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and a war crime under the Rome Statute, the treaty of the International Criminal Court, or I.C.C.

Israeli and foreign officials told The New York Times last week that they were worried that the I.C.C. was preparing to issue arrest warrants against senior Israeli officials — including potentially over accusations that they prevented the delivery of aid to civilians in Gaza. (They also said they believed that the court was considering arrest warrants for Hamas leaders, which could be issued concurrently.)

Israel has previously vehemently denied placing limits on aid, accusing the United Nations of failing to distribute aid adequately and Hamas of looting supplies. U.S. and U.N. officials have said there is no evidence of that, other than one shipment that Hamas seized earlier this week, which is now being recovered.

However the issue is resolved, there is little doubt that conditions are still life threatening for many Gazans, particularly children suffering from illnesses that make them especially vulnerable. As of April 17, at least 28 children younger than 12 had died of malnutrition or related causes in Gaza hospitals, according to the local health authorities, including a dozen babies under a month old. Officials believe that many more deaths outside hospitals have gone unrecorded.

There have been some improvements to aid flows in recent weeks, and on Wednesday Israel reopened the Erez border crossing, allowing some aid to cross directly into northern Gaza.

Fatma Edaama, a 36-year-old resident of Jabaliya, in northern Gaza, said conditions in her neighborhood were still difficult. Many commodities, such as meat, are unavailable or sold at sky-high prices, she said.

But flour, canned goods and other items had started to flow far more freely and their cost had dropped sharply, Ms. Edaama said. “Earlier there was nothing, people would grind up animal feed,” she said. “Now, we have food.”

Still, foreign officials and aid agencies say more is needed.

“This is real and important progress, but more still needs to be done,” Mr. Blinken told reporters this week after visiting an aid warehouse in Jordan.

 

 

[Anastasis 23475]

4 hours ago, CHIEF said:

The conflict isn't about politics but religion.

It's about land and resources. It always is. Religion is just an effective motivator for the masses. 

[Bevo 13578]

Good documentary if you can stomach it:

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25955]

well fuck. Finally start getting crossing open and now this.

CAIRO, May 5 (Reuters) - The armed wing of Palestinian Islamist group Hamas claimed responsibility on Sunday for an attack on the Kerem Shalom crossing between Israel and Gaza, which Israeli and Palestinian media reports said had resulted in Israeli casualties.

Israel's military said 10 projectiles were launched from Rafah in southern Gaza towards the area of the crossing, which it said was now closed to aid trucks going into the coastal enclave. Other crossings remain open.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-responsibility-attack-israel-gaza-border-crossing-casualties-2024-05-05/

[InkaUtexas 25955]

JERUSALEM (AP) — The latest round of Gaza cease-fire talks ended in Cairo after “in-depth and serious discussions,” the Hamas militant group said Sunday, reiterating key demands that Israel again rejected.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-humanitarian-aid-5fb0455b81674b2bfe38d997c95d6f00

[bolverk 29683]

It sounds like extremists on both sides are determined to prolong this war. Meanwhile, more people will suffer.

Israeli statements raise concerns about Netanyahu’s commitment to a deal.

A group representing families of the Israeli hostages in Gaza expressed concerns Sunday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, under pressure from hard-line members of his governing coalition, was trying to stall or even sabotage a possible deal that could lead to a cease-fire and the release of captives held by Hamas.

A major sticking point in negotiations has been Hamas’s consistent demand for a commitment by Israel to end its seven-month military offensive in Gaza and to forgo a planned invasion of Rafah, Hamas’s last bastion in the south of the enclave, and Israel’s reluctance to declare such concessions, according to officials.

In the discussions in Cairo, which have been mediated by the United States, Qatar and Egypt, negotiators had been trying to leave some room for ambiguity in the early stages of a three-phased deal that could satisfy both sides.

But on Saturday the Israeli government issued two statements to reporters, to be attributed to an unnamed “political official,” saying that contrary to reports, Israel would not agree to end the war as part of a deal. It added that it would not allow mediators to offer Hamas guarantees about the war’s end, while blaming Hamas for scuttling any possibility of a deal by sticking to its demands.

Several of the Israeli reporters who received the statements said they had come directly from the prime minister’s office in an unusual breach of the government’s confidentiality rules.

Nahum Barnea, a prominent political columnist, said Sunday in Yediot Ahronot, a popular Hebrew daily news outlet, that he felt that the statements were “designed to scuttle the chances of a deal.”

The Hostages Families Forum, an Israeli nongovernmental group lobbying for the release of the hostages and supporting their families, said in a statement on Sunday that it was “shocked” to hear about the statements. The group called on Mr. Netanyahu to “disregard all political pressure,” “to lead” and to “show courage.”

Mr. Barnea said he believed that Mr. Netanyahu would be freed “of the need to decide” on a deal if Hamas, the mediators and the far-right members of his government could be persuaded that there was not one on the table.

Mr. Netanyahu on Sunday vehemently rejected the accusations, saying in a longer statement, in his own name, that Hamas was the party obstructing a deal. “Israel was, and still is, ready to pause the fighting in order to release our hostages,” he said.

Though details of a potential deal are still being hashed out, Egypt has been pushing a proposal, with the broad approval of Israeli negotiators, that would begin with a six-week truce, during which 33 of the most vulnerable hostages held in Gaza would be released in exchange for hundreds of Palestinians imprisoned by Israel.

Israel would allow the return of hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinian civilians to northern Gaza with few restrictions, officials have said, previously a major sticking point for Israel.

Husam Badran, a senior Hamas official, said on Saturday that the group’s representatives had arrived in Cairo “with great positivity” regarding the latest proposal. But Hamas officials told Arabic news outlets that issues including a permanent cease-fire and full withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza remained unresolved. By early Sunday there was still no indication that Hamas had accepted the deal.

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25955]

Leadership on both sides can eat a bag of dicks.

[Bevo 13578]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Leadership on both sides can eat a bag of dicks.

1000s of Hamas for 33 of the “how many” hostages? I think the only way I would do a deal like that is for all the hostages. Otherwise, with the proposed deal you have to pretty much give up on the rest of the hostages.

[bolverk 29683]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Leadership on both sides can eat a bag of dicks.

Your Reuters article mentions this in passing. More details:

Netanyahu calls Al Jazeera an ‘incitement channel’ as it is shut down in Israel.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel said on Sunday that his cabinet had voted to shut down the Israeli operations of Al Jazeera, a Qatar-based network that is a major source of news in the Arab world and has often highlighted civilian suffering in Gaza during Israel’s war with Hamas.

“The government under my leadership has decided unanimously: The incitement channel Al Jazeera will be shut down in Israel,” Mr. Netanyahu said on X, formerly Twitter. It was not immediately clear whether the closing would be temporary or whether it would affect the network’s reporting in Gaza and the West Bank.

Journalism organizations have said that such a closure, which had been under discussion in Israel for weeks, would be a blow to press freedom.

Israel’s communications minister, Shlomo Karhi, said in a video statement that Al Jazeera “will no longer broadcast here in Israel, and its equipment will be confiscated.”

In a statement in Arabic, Al Jazeera condemned Israel’s move, which it called a “criminal act.” “Israeli’s suppression of the free press to cover up its crimes has not deterred us from performing our duty,” the network said.

The decision could complicate Israel’s relationship with Qatar, which helps fund the network and has also been helping to mediate cease-fire negotiations between Israel and Hamas. The Qatari government did not immediately comment.

Mr. Netanyahu said in a statement that Al Jazeera’s reporters had “harmed Israel’s security” and incited violence against its soldiers. He had previously called Al Jazeera a “Hamas mouthpiece.” Israeli lawmakers passed a bill last month allowing the government to temporarily close foreign media outlets that Mr. Netanyahu determined were undermining national security.

The order to close Al Jazeera’s local operations will initially apply for 45 days, and a district court judge must approve it within 24 hours before it is carried out, according to Avraham Hasson, an aide to Israel’s minister of communications. Mr. Hasson said the judge could rule to change the length of the closure. The government has the option of extending it for another 45 days, but any extension would also need a judge’s approval.

Mr. Netanyahu’s government has had a tense relationship for years with Al Jazeera, which has reported extensively from Gaza during the war between Israel and Hamas that began in October.

The war in Gaza has taken a toll on the network’s own employees and their families. In October, Wael al-Dahdouh, the Gaza bureau chief of Al Jazeera’s Arabic-language service, was told live on air that his wife, son, daughter and infant grandson had been killed in central Gaza, where they had been sheltering. In January, his eldest son was killed in an Israeli airstrike, according to the authorities in Gaza.

[InkaUtexas 25955]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

1000s of Hamas for 33 of the “how many” hostages? I think the only way I would do a deal like that is for all the hostages. Otherwise, with the proposed deal you have to pretty much give up on the rest of the hostages.

Yeah, you get 33? The rest won't be coming home.

[bolverk 29683]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

1000s of Hamas for 33 of the “how many” hostages? I think the only way I would do a deal like that is for all the hostages. Otherwise, with the proposed deal you have to pretty much give up on the rest of the hostages.

Are they only asking for Hamas prisoners? Thousands of Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas have been rounded up by the IDF, and multiple stories of the systematic abuse of those prisoners have been published and posted here on Surly.

[InkaUtexas 25955]

CNN reporting Hamas agreed to the ceasefire.

 

[Captainant 27680]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

CNN reporting Hamas agreed to the ceasefire.

 

Inb4 Rafah gets carpet bombed and invaded anyways

[bolverk 29683]

15 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Inb4 Rafah gets carpet bombed and invaded anyways

Netanyahu has already said it wouldn't matter if they were going to sign onto the deal and said they were going to invade anyway. Palestinian civilians are going to get fucked.

Hamas said in a statement its top leader, Ismail Haniyeh, had delivered the news in a phone call with Qatar’s prime minister and Egypt’s intelligence minister. After the release of the statement, Palestinians erupted in cheers in the sprawling tent camps around Rafah, hoping the deal meant an Israeli attack had been averted.

*****

In a fiery speech Sunday evening marking Israel’s Holocaust memorial day, Netanyahu rejected international pressure to halt the war, saying that “if Israel is forced to stand alone, Israel will stand alone.”

On Monday, Netanyahu accused Hamas of “torpedoing” a deal by not budging from its demand for an end to the war and a complete Israeli troop withdrawal in return for the hostages’ release, which he called “extreme.”

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-humanitarian-aid-8659eae6e0a7362504f0aa4aa4be53e0

[Captainant 27680]

At least the US finally stopped shipping them ammo for blowing up civilians

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold

 

[horn4life 3761]

Israel should be able to defend itself, and the Hamas attack was exceptionally brutal.  

But my mind tends to usually eventually drifts toward the use of the word "defend."  When the body counts reach 10X, 20x or 100X that of the initial attack can you still call it defense?

You also have to have two parties that want peace to get a peace agreement. Hamas doesn't want peace, and Israel doesn't want a two state solution.  I also fear that the most dangerous thing long term for Israel is that politically (I don't have polling just antidotal evidence), that more younger Americans than perhaps ever before do not see Israeli actions that are causing horrific civilian outcomes as defense at all?  If you lose American youth over a longer period of time, then the US funding that allows Israel to exist (you can disagree with this assessment) future funding will become more difficult to get, and threaten the very survival of Israel.

From a simply logistics perspective I still cannot wrap my head around how long it took Israel to engage in the initial Hamas attack at the Music Festival?  It's not like cell phones were not blowing up once it was clear what was going on.  Not a lot of distance to cover when you can drive from Austin to Houston in 2.5 hours with traffic,  How does it take a military with US military equipment hours upon hours to respond to such a horrific attack? 

 

 

 

 

 

[horn4life 3761]

Meant to add this in- but got a call during my edit: 

I also personally don't think the Middle East will ever be stable.  Simply as they centuries old tribal, ethnic, and religious rivalries are reinforced rather than muted year after year.  You need look no farther than the last 15 minutes of Lawrence of Arabia to see this truth. After fighting and winning, these rivalries came to the forefront, and the victory simply evaporated into the desert...

[bolverk 29683]

Here are the latest developments.
The Israeli military said on Tuesday that it had sent tanks into Rafah and established control over the Gaza side of the border crossing with Egypt in what it called a limited operation. The move halted the flow of aid into the enclave, drawing immediate condemnation from international officials.

The incursion — which the military said was aimed at destroying Hamas targets used to attack Israeli soldiers — did not appear to be the long-promised full ground invasion of Rafah, which Israel’s allies have been working to avert by pushing for a cease-fire deal. It came after a dizzying day that saw Israel order people to evacuate parts of the city, then Hamas claims that it had accepted the terms of a cease-fire, followed by an announcement by Israel’s military that it was carrying out “targeted strikes” in eastern Rafah.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is facing pressure to agree to a cease-fire with Hamas that is backed by the United States and Arab nations and that would secure the release of hostages still being held in Gaza. His government said that it would send negotiators to Cairo on Tuesday; analysts say Israel’s actions in Rafah could either ratchet up the pressure on Hamas to make a deal or sabotage the talks.

The head of a hospital in Rafah said that 27 bodies and 150 wounded people had been brought to his facility since the start of the incursion. The Egyptian state-owned television channel Al Qahera reported that sporadic fighting could be heard around the Rafah crossing, and humanitarian agencies said that no aid was passing through it. United Nations officials said that Israeli troops had now “choked off” both the Rafah and Kerem Shalom crossings, the two main routes for getting aid into Gaza, and warned that the humanitarian crisis in the enclave would worsen.

 

[bolverk 29683]

The closures of two Gaza border crossings prompt alarm over humanitarian aid.

With its seizure of the Gaza side of the Rafah border crossing with Egypt on Tuesday, Israel has now closed two key crossings for aid into Gaza, drawing sharp warnings from international agencies and officials who said the moves could exacerbate an already dire humanitarian crisis in the enclave.

Since the start of the war, Israel had limited aid entering the Gaza Strip to the two tightly controlled border crossings: Kerem Shalom and Rafah, which both access the enclave’s south.

But Israel closed the Kerem Shalom crossing after a Hamas attack on Sunday killed four soldiers in the area, then mounted an incursion on Tuesday that closed the Rafah crossing along the border with Egypt.

Jens Laerke, a spokesman for the U.N. humanitarian office, said in a news briefing that Israel had “choked off” the two main arteries for getting aid into Gaza. If fuel is not able to enter the enclave for some time, he added, “it would be a very effective way of putting the humanitarian operation in its grave.”

The main United Nations agency that helps Palestinians in Gaza said Tuesday that the “catastrophic hunger faced by people especially in northern Gaza will get much worse” if aid shipments through the Rafah border crossing were interrupted.

Egypt’s foreign ministry condemned the Rafah operation “in the strongest terms,” saying on Tuesday afternoon that Israeli control over the crossing jeopardized humanitarian aid deliveries as well as the ability of Gazans to leave the strip for medical treatment.

“This dangerous escalation threatens the lives of more than a million Palestinians who depend primarily on this crossing, as it is the main lifeline of the Gaza Strip,” it said in a statement.

Israel opened the crossing at Kerem Shalom on its border with Gaza in December after pressure from the United States to speed up the flow of humanitarian aid. However, Israeli protesters have regularly gathered at the crossing, trying to block aid convoys from entering the enclave in hope of raising the pressure on Hamas to release the hostages.

Under pressure from the Biden administration after an Israeli airstrike killed seven aid workers, Israel said last month that it would reopen the Erez border crossing into northern Gaza and that shipments bound for the enclave would be accepted at the Israeli port of Ashdod. On May 1, when the Erez crossing first opened, Israel said 30 aid trucks passed through.

Figures from the United Nations show that on Sunday, the most recent day for which data is available, 128 aid trucks entered Gaza through the Kerem Shalom crossing and none entered through Rafah. With the closures of those two crossings, it was not immediately clear how much aid was getting through to Gaza through the other avenues on Tuesday. COGAT, the Israeli agency overseeing aid deliveries into Gaza, said on Tuesday that 60 trucks had passed through the Erez crossing.

Israel imposes stringent checks on incoming aid to keep out anything that might help Hamas, which it has pledged to eliminate. Since the start of the war, most of the aid for Gaza has moved through the Rafah border crossing with Egypt.

Aid groups and foreign diplomats have said the inspections create bottlenecks, and have accused Israel of arbitrarily turning away aid and systematically limiting deliveries. Israel has denied those assertions, blaming the shortages on logistical failures by aid groups, and has recently increased the number of trucks entering the strip.

[bolverk 29683]

[lucious leftfoot 126]

21 hours ago, Captainant said:

At least the US finally stopped shipping them ammo for blowing up civilians

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold

 

Is this Biden getting a conscience, or our stocks running low?

[Bevo 13578]

23 minutes ago, lucious leftfoot said:

Is this Biden getting a conscience, or our stocks running low?

 

Neither.

[bolverk 29683]

Conditions in the "Safe Zone" that Palestinians are being directed from Rahah to flee to are even worse than the shit they've already been living in for months.

An official warns of ‘staggeringly’ bad conditions in the so-called safe zone

The area Israel has designated as a safe zone for Gazans fleeing Rafah is neither safe nor equipped to receive them, United Nations and European officials said Tuesday, while warning that Israel’s order to evacuate parts of the city may amount to a war crime.

The Israeli military on Monday dropped leaflets in eastern Rafah that told people to move to what it called a humanitarian zone to the north. That area — which the military said had field hospitals, tents, and supplies — includes Al-Mawasi, a coastal section of Gaza it has advised people to go to for months.

Many Gazans began to leave, fearing that Israel was moving ahead with its long-planned invasion of Rafah. Israel carried out what it said were “targeted” airstrikes overnight and said Tuesday its forces were in control of the Rafah border crossing.

Josep Borrell Fontelles, the European Union’s top diplomat, said he feared the military moves would cause “a lot of casualties” and further displacement.

“There are 600,000 children in Gaza,” he told reporters in Brussels on Tuesday. “They will be pushed to so-called safe zones. There is no safe zones in Gaza.”

António Guterres, the U.N. secretary general, echoed that point in his own remarks to reporters. “Countless more civilian casualties. Countless more families forced to flee yet again — with nowhere safe to go. Because there is no safe place in Gaza,” he said.

The area designated by Israel to receive people fleeing Rafah is a coastal strip of land at Al-Mawasi already occupied by a tent camp housing thousands of Palestinians. But even that area has not been truly safe. James Elder, a spokesman for Unicef, the U.N. children’s agency, cited the recent death in Al-Mawasi of a 7-year old Palestinian boy, who was shot in the head as he went out to get food for his family.

Rafah has approximately one toilet for every 850 people and one shower for every 3,500 people, Mr. Elder told reporters in Geneva on Tuesday. In the designated safe zones, he added, conditions were “staggeringly, much worse.”

The head of the Norwegian Refugee Council, Jan Egeland, said in a statement that the Mawasi area was “already overstretched and devoid of vital services. It lacks the capacity to house the number of people currently seeking refuge in Rafah.”

Ravina Shamdasani, a spokeswoman for the U.N. human rights office told a news briefing in Geneva that there were “strong indications” that the order to evacuate from eastern Rafah violated international humanitarian law. Her comments came a day after Volker Türk, the U.N. human rights chief, warned that forced displacement of civilians is a war crime.

 

[Bevo 13578]

17 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Conditions in the "Safe Zone" that Palestinians are being directed from Rahah to flee to are even worse than the shit they've already been living in for months.

An official warns of ‘staggeringly’ bad conditions in the so-called safe zone

The area Israel has designated as a safe zone for Gazans fleeing Rafah is neither safe nor equipped to receive them, United Nations and European officials said Tuesday, while warning that Israel’s order to evacuate parts of the city may amount to a war crime.

The Israeli military on Monday dropped leaflets in eastern Rafah that told people to move to what it called a humanitarian zone to the north. That area — which the military said had field hospitals, tents, and supplies — includes Al-Mawasi, a coastal section of Gaza it has advised people to go to for months.

Many Gazans began to leave, fearing that Israel was moving ahead with its long-planned invasion of Rafah. Israel carried out what it said were “targeted” airstrikes overnight and said Tuesday its forces were in control of the Rafah border crossing.

Josep Borrell Fontelles, the European Union’s top diplomat, said he feared the military moves would cause “a lot of casualties” and further displacement.

“There are 600,000 children in Gaza,” he told reporters in Brussels on Tuesday. “They will be pushed to so-called safe zones. There is no safe zones in Gaza.”

António Guterres, the U.N. secretary general, echoed that point in his own remarks to reporters. “Countless more civilian casualties. Countless more families forced to flee yet again — with nowhere safe to go. Because there is no safe place in Gaza,” he said.

The area designated by Israel to receive people fleeing Rafah is a coastal strip of land at Al-Mawasi already occupied by a tent camp housing thousands of Palestinians. But even that area has not been truly safe. James Elder, a spokesman for Unicef, the U.N. children’s agency, cited the recent death in Al-Mawasi of a 7-year old Palestinian boy, who was shot in the head as he went out to get food for his family.

Rafah has approximately one toilet for every 850 people and one shower for every 3,500 people, Mr. Elder told reporters in Geneva on Tuesday. In the designated safe zones, he added, conditions were “staggeringly, much worse.”

The head of the Norwegian Refugee Council, Jan Egeland, said in a statement that the Mawasi area was “already overstretched and devoid of vital services. It lacks the capacity to house the number of people currently seeking refuge in Rafah.”

Ravina Shamdasani, a spokeswoman for the U.N. human rights office told a news briefing in Geneva that there were “strong indications” that the order to evacuate from eastern Rafah violated international humanitarian law. Her comments came a day after Volker Türk, the U.N. human rights chief, warned that forced displacement of civilians is a war crime.

 

 

Is no civilian identifying Hamas or hostages?

[bolverk 29683]

31 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

Is no civilian identifying Hamas or hostages?

Are you asking whether civilians are identifying the locations of Hamas fighters or Israeli hostages?

How should I know? I have heard that it's not unheard of for Palestinians to cooperate with the IDF, so maybe? Should they? I mean, sure, that would be the moral decision, but I'm not sure the average refugee is in the position to do so or have knowledge of all of Hamas's hidey holes. Do you think the typical Palestinian has secret intel? I can see quite a few being a bit ornery at the suggestion they should after being forced to live in squalor for months on end and then being evacuated to even worse conditions.

I can also see more being scared to death of any potential reprisals, much less approaching an IDF soldier out of fear of getting shot or blown the fuck up. It seems the vast majority are just doing their best to survive and keep their heads down in a shitty no-win situation. We know that demographically, about half the population is under the age of 18, so that means there's a mom and dad who've got at least a couple of kids in tow and maybe an elderly parent they're been desperately trying to keep alive while sharing a single shitter with 850 other fucking people and not much food to eat.

And even if some are withholding information, which I'm sure there are, are you completely comfortable with the notion of collectively punishing the thousands of others who didn't? 

Seriously, what kind of question is that? Can you not imagine putting yourself in a position where you have virtually no power to influence a gigantic shit-storm of war surrounding you? Are you really that incapable of having empathy for the suffering of other people just trying to survive an awful situation that they can't control?

Edited May 7 by bolverk
IDF not ISD, dummy

[Bevo 13578]

57 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Are you asking whether civilians are identifying the locations of Hamas fighters or Israeli hostages?

How should I know? I have heard that it's not unheard of for Palestinians to cooperate with the IDF, so maybe? Should they? I mean, sure, that would be the moral decision, but I'm not sure the average refugee is in the position to do so or have knowledge of all of Hamas's hidey holes. Do you think the typical Palestinian has secret intel? I can see quite a few being a bit ornery at the suggestion they should after being forced to live in squalor for months on end and then being evacuated to even worse conditions.

I can also see more being scared to death of any potential reprisals, much less approaching an IDF soldier out of fear of getting shot or blown the fuck up. It seems the vast majority are just doing their best to survive and keep their heads down in a shitty no-win situation. We know that demographically, about half the population is under the age of 18, so that means there's a mom and dad who've got at least a couple of kids in tow and maybe an elderly parent they're been desperately trying to keep alive while sharing a single shitter with 850 other fucking people and not much food to eat.

And even if some are withholding information, which I'm sure there are, are you completely comfortable with the notion of collectively punishing the thousands of others who didn't? 

Seriously, what kind of question is that? Can you not imagine putting yourself in a position where you have virtually no power to influence a gigantic shit-storm of war surrounding you? Are you really that incapable of having empathy for the suffering of other people just trying to survive an awful situation that they can't control?

 

What I'm wondering is if there is a way to retrieve all the hostages and root out Hamas without having to go into Rafah. I assume the hostages were moved to Rafah, but I don't know. I assume most or all of Hamas is in Rafah, but I don't know. Also, I don't know what Israel is up against when it goes into Rafah. And, I don't know what would satisfy Israel to keep it from going into Rafah. 70% of hostages and 50% of Hamas, etc?

Edited May 7 by Bevo

[bolverk 29683]

11 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

What I'm wondering is if there is a way to retrieve all the hostages and root out Hamas without having to go into Rafah. I assume the hostages were moved to Rafah, but I don't know. I assume most or all of Hamas is in Rafah, but I don't know. Also, I don't know what Israel is up against when it goes into Rafah. And, I don't know what would satisfy Israel to keep it from going into Rafah. 70% of hostages and 50% of Hamas, etc?

Gotcha. Sorry to have gone off. It was difficult to discern your intent.

I think I read a week or so ago that the IDF believed the last 4 of Hamas's original 34-36 brigades were left, and yes, my assumption is that the last of the surviving hostages are likely there with them somewhere, likely hidden deep underground. I believe I've read there remain scattered elements of Hamas elsewhere in the Strip since the IDF hasn't fully established security. 

One bright spot for the refugees right now is that the IDF sounds like they're trying to be a little more surgical with this latest push.

  

[BrazilHorn 6612]

UN just revised civilian death figures down 50% as prior numbers which had been supplied by the Gaza Health Ministry were incorrect. 
 

https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza

[BabaYaga 15301]

15 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

UN just revised civilian death figures down 50% as prior numbers which had been supplied by the Gaza Health Ministry were incorrect. 
 

https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza

This seems as obvious as gravity and wet water.  Take out politics, but if your data on casualties comes from a group that has a large incentive to elevate numbers, maybe take those numbers with a grain of salt.