Israel-Hamas war thread

[InkaUtexas 25907]

10 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

He talked the talk, but William Frawley did all the actual work.

And Army brat knows. His grandson was there.

[Poester 109]

Hamas sure didn’t think this one through. What an ass kicking. 

[InkaUtexas 25907]

9 minutes ago, Poester said:

Hamas sure didn’t think this one through. What an ass kicking. 

Yeah, don't think they anticipated global protests in support of Palestine, recognition from Western European Nations of Statehood, and Israel becoming a pariah state closer to how Russia acts than a western style democracy.

[Poester 109]

8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yeah, don't think they anticipated global protests in support of Palestine, recognition from Western European Nations of Statehood, and Israel becoming a pariah state closer to how Russia acts than a western style democracy.

They want their own civilians to die, and a lot of them, but they couldn’t have anticipated Israel actually exterminating them to this degree. I know I sure as hell didn’t. No offense to Ireland, but if it’s not soccer or beer, I’m not paying attention to their views of the Middle East.

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

8 minutes ago, Poester said:

They want their own civilians to die, and a lot of them, but they couldn’t have anticipated Israel actually exterminating them to this degree. I know I sure as hell didn’t. No offense to Ireland, but if it’s not soccer or beer, I’m not paying attention to their views of the Middle East.

 

That makes no sense.  Ireland sucks at soccer.

[ftf82 485]

Maybe he meant rugby

[Poester 109]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That makes no sense.  Ireland sucks at soccer.

They sure as hell love talking about it. But to be fair I tune them out as the only thing worse than watching soccer is talking about it. 

[Brian Fantana 6685]

14 minutes ago, Poester said:

They want their own civilians to die, and a lot of them, but they couldn’t have anticipated Israel actually exterminating them to this degree. I know I sure as hell didn’t. No offense to Ireland, but if it’s not soccer or beer, I’m not paying attention to their views of the Middle East.

Yeah I fucking wonder why Ireland would be rigidly anti-colonial.

[Poester 109]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I fucking wonder why Ireland would be rigidly anti-colonial.

They’re free to their opinion on the matter. My point was that stating “western European nations” support Palestine when it means Ireland and Norway is hilarious and made me laugh. 

[Hank_Hill 18803]

“If it’s not soccer or beer I’m not paying attention to Ireland . But also soccer sucks and I hate watching or hearing about it.”

 

wat

[Brisketexan 105095]

5 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

“If it’s not soccer or beer I’m not paying attention to Ireland . But also soccer sucks and I hate watching or hearing about it.”

 

wat

Wait until you hear how much he hates beer, too.

[Poester 109]

4 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

“If it’s not soccer or beer I’m not paying attention to Ireland . But also soccer sucks and I hate watching or hearing about it.”

 

wat

I will indulge soccer fans sometimes, but yes I can only take so much before my eyes glaze over. 

[Poester 109]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Wait until you hear how much he hates beer, too.

My doctor and my belly wish this was true. 

[bolverk 29660]

2 minutes ago, Poester said:

They’re free to their opinion on the matter. My point was that stating “western European nations” support Palestine when it means Ireland and Norway is hilarious and made me laugh. 

You might not care about Ireland, Spain, or Norway recognizing Palestine, but if the UK, France and Australia move ahead with it, an idea all three are toying with (click the links), then maybe you won't find it so funny.

Just about the entire international community supports a two-state solution. Universal recognition of Palestine is really only contingent on whether it's part of a negotiated settlement.

For example, the green countries below already formally recognize the Palestinian State. As any rational person can see, doing so is not a radical or laughable idea.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

There are other countries?

[Poester 109]

13 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You might not care about Ireland, Spain, or Norway recognizing Palestine, but if the UK, France and Australia move ahead with it, an idea all three are toying with (click the links), then maybe you won't find it so funny.

Just about the entire international community supports a two-state solution. Universal recognition of Palestine is really only contingent on whether it's part of a negotiated settlement.

For example, the green countries below already formally recognize the Palestinian State. As any rational person can see, doing so is not a radical or laughable idea.

I was laughing at the notion that Europe supports it. I actually like the poster, so we can drop it. It’s not going to be a state and I’m not entirely sure what’s going to be left once Israel wins the war. 

[InkaUtexas 25907]

Well see, that is the issue. You don't win wars like this. You withdraw.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

19 hours ago, F250 said:

Your understanding of the topic is rooted in ignorance.

The discussion was on the current conflict which is a modern conflict and as Anastasis pointed out, it's a conflict that originated with the migration of Europeans to Palestine.

The Ashkenazi emerged in Europe during the middle ages, Yiddish is some kind of German dialect, they are white Europeans, and imported European culture to Palestine. These are not the ancient Israelites from biblical times. Like every other place Europeans settled that had an existing population, conflict between the settlers and locals occurred.

This is, frankly, a limited and completely retrofitted history and it’s always been designed to retcon Jews into “white Europeans” so they can be safely vilified. 
 

The Ashenkazi emerged in Europe in the Middle Ages as Jews from across the former Empire fled to places more willing to welcome them, often at the instigation of a local monarch or royal.  Unsurprisingly a dialect emerged to adapt to their surroundings.  Genetically Ashenkazi Jews are mostly Levantine and Southern/Eastern Mediterranean (not Germanic/Slav/Scandinavian), which is entirely consistent with the Jewish diaspora, originally Israelite, which got scattered across Rome.  Framing the Mediterranean populations as “white” or “not white” is completely incomprehensible historically and is only a thing because of 19th century “scientific racism” (to whom the Mediterranean peoples were suspiciously non-White) and now modern identity politics (who made the distinction based on who has allegedly persecuted whom). 

For that matter, don’t scratch too deeply at Palestinian and other Levantine Arabs because it turns out that plenty of Greeks and Italians managed to find their way into that gene pool as well.  Turns out the Pax Romana had long-lasting effects. All of which is irrelevant to who has a “right” to the land, it’s amazing how easy people slide to literal “blood and soil” arguments when it suits their priors. 

[Anastasis 23469]

25 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Genetically Ashenkazi Jews are mostly Levantine and Southern/Eastern Mediterranean (not Germanic/Slav/Scandinavian), which is entirely consistent with the Jewish diaspora, originally Israelite, which got scattered across Rome.

The mtDNA (matrilineal lineage) is european origin.  None of this shit really matters until people start making silly arguments about 20th century zionism being about a "return to their roots" after 5k years in exile. That is all fantasy shit. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

Abstract

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

[Anastasis 23469]

17 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

 

Puts the so-called Rules Based International Order in perspective, doesn't it?

[F250 28767]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is, frankly, a limited and completely retrofitted history and it’s always been designed to retcon Jews into “white Europeans” so they can be safely vilified. 
 

The Ashenkazi emerged in Europe in the Middle Ages as Jews from across the former Empire fled to places more willing to welcome them, often at the instigation of a local monarch or royal.  Unsurprisingly a dialect emerged to adapt to their surroundings.  Genetically Ashenkazi Jews are mostly Levantine and Southern/Eastern Mediterranean (not Germanic/Slav/Scandinavian), which is entirely consistent with the Jewish diaspora, originally Israelite, which got scattered across Rome.  Framing the Mediterranean populations as “white” or “not white” is completely incomprehensible historically and is only a thing because of 19th century “scientific racism” (to whom the Mediterranean peoples were suspiciously non-White) and now modern identity politics (who made the distinction based on who has allegedly persecuted whom). 

For that matter, don’t scratch too deeply at Palestinian and other Levantine Arabs because it turns out that plenty of Greeks and Italians managed to find their way into that gene pool as well.  Turns out the Pax Romana had long-lasting effects. All of which is irrelevant to who has a “right” to the land, it’s amazing how easy people slide to literal “blood and soil” arguments when it suits their priors. 

As usual you are full of shit. I never once claimed the Ashenkazi were from Germany or similar just that Yiddish was a a language that had a German dialect.

It sounds like you are going out of your way to differentiate the Ashenkazi from Europeans. Using their ethnicity to separate them from their European heritage, making them an other.

Well done.

[F250 28767]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

The mtDNA (matrilineal lineage) is european origin.  None of this shit really matters until people start making silly arguments about 20th century zionism being about a "return to their roots" after 5k years in exile. That is all fantasy shit. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

Abstract

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

 

But they are not tied to any one European nation and are clearly not German or Scandinavian and carry the less than European blood. They are like gypsies.

- 956 Worldwide

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

The mtDNA (matrilineal lineage) is european origin.  None of this shit really matters until people start making silly arguments about 20th century zionism being about a "return to their roots" after 5k years in exile. That is all fantasy shit. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

Abstract

The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

Oh look, it turns out I’m absolutely fucking right that the origin of Ashenkazi is mostly Levantine and Southern European/Mediterranean:

Quote

Due to the relative scarcity of relevant historical records, the ethnic origins of present-day Ashkenazi Jews are debated [2], and in such a setting, genetic data provides crucial information. A number of recent studies have shown that Ashkenazi individuals have genetic ancestry intermediate between European (EU) and Middle-Eastern (ME) sources [4–8], consistent with the long-held theory of a Levantine origin followed by partial assimilation in Europe. The estimated amount of accumulated EU gene flow varied across studies, with the most recent ones, employing genome-wide data, converging to a contribution of around 50% of the AJ ancestry [4, 7, 9].

Despite these advances, little is known about the identity of the European admixing population(s) and the time of the admixture events [2, 10]. Speculations abound, due to the wide geographic dispersion of the Jewish populations since medieval times, but with very few historical records to support any claim [2]. Further complicating the picture is an Ashkenazi-specific founder event that has taken place less than a millennium ago, as manifested by elevated frequencies of disease mutations [11, 12], reduced genetic diversity [13, 14], and an abundance of long tracts of identity-by-descent [9, 15, 16]. Results from our recent study [9] were not decisive regarding the relative times of the European admixture and the founder event, calling for a more in-depth investigation.

A number of previous population genetic studies have attempted, sometimes implicitly, to “localize” the Ashkenazi genomes to a single geographic region or source population [4–6, 17]. However, such approaches may be confounded by the mixed EU and ME Ashkenazi ancestry, which necessarily implies the existence of multiple sources. Here, we overcome this obstacle, following studies in other populations [18, 19], by performing a preliminary step of local ancestry inference (LAI), in which each locus in each Ashkenazi genome is assigned as either EU or ME. Following LAI, the source population of the European and Middle-Eastern “sub-genomes” can be independently localized.

We begin our analysis by testing the ability of available LAI software to correctly infer ancestries for simulated EU/ME genomes. Proceeding with RFMix, we apply LAI to Ashkenazi SNP array data, and use a maximum likelihood approach to localize, separately, the EU and ME sources. We correct bias introduced by the method using simulations, and show that it is robust to potential errors in LAI. We also employ other methods based on allele frequency divergence between Ashkenazi Jews and other populations, although they turn out to be less informative. To estimate the time of admixture, we first use the lengths of EU and ME tracts and the decay in ancestry correlation along the genome. We further introduce a new method for dating admixture times based the genome-wide EU or ME ancestry proportions. We again remove bias from all methods using simulations. We integrate these results with an analysis of identity-by-descent (IBD) sharing both within AJ and between AJ and other populations. Finally, we compare our estimates to those produced by the GLOBETROTTER suite [20–22]. Our results suggest that the European gene flow was predominantly Southern European (≈60–80%), with the remaining contribution either from Western or (more likely) Eastern Europe. The time of admixture, under a model of a single event, was estimated at ≈30 generations ago. However, this admixture time is likely the average of at least two distinct events. 

It turns out Europe is a big place. 
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/

[Rex Kramer 1335]

21 hours ago, F250 said:

Your understanding of the topic is rooted in ignorance.

The discussion was on the current conflict which is a modern conflict and as Anastasis pointed out, it's a conflict that originated with the migration of Europeans to Palestine.

The Ashkenazi emerged in Europe during the middle ages, Yiddish is some kind of German dialect, they are white Europeans, and imported European culture to Palestine. These are not the ancient Israelites from biblical times. Like every other place Europeans settled that had an existing population, conflict between the settlers and locals occurred.

Never saw this response. This just isn’t correct, particularly the part about their origins as white Euros. As if some Germanic tribe one day said, yeah, let’s speak Yiddish and observe weird customs. 

Edited May 29 by Rex Kramer

[956 Worldwide 34705]

29 minutes ago, F250 said:

As usual you are full of shit. I never once claimed the Ashenkazi were from Germany or similar just that Yiddish was a a language that had a German dialect.

It sounds like you are going out of your way to differentiate the Ashenkazi from Europeans. Using their ethnicity to separate them from their European heritage, making them an other.

Well done.

The whole point is that “European” isn’t a thing and is useless as a label outside of purely geographic designators and European Union institutions. Well and racists and nutty progressives who talk about “European heritage” as if that has any meaning.  

[Anastasis 23469]

18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“European” isn’t a thing

LOL. 

[wildcat09 29349]

"my history is unassailable" is one of the funniest things I think I've ever seen written on the internet. It's on par with "I am aware of all internet traditions."

Edited May 29 by wildcat09

[956 Worldwide 34705]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

LOL. 

 

32 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Never saw this response. This just isn’t correct, particularly the part about their origins as white Euros. As if some Germanic tribe one day said, yeah, let’s speak Yiddish and observe weird customs. 

“White European” is meaningless. I mean, most people will agree that Swedes are white Europeans.  But what about Albanians? Azeris? Tatars in Kazan? If you line up a Catholic Croat, an Orthodox Serb, and a Muslim Bosniak who gets that status? What about the Sami shamanists? 
 

The idea of “white European” or “European heritage was invented by American racist dorks who needed to reconcile Nazi race science with their need to expand to let in the Poles and Slavs and others to be attractive in the New World. Progressives then adopted the category as the people it’s OK to be against and then added in the Ashenkazi Jews because the frame of colonizer/colonized is the only way to view the world. 

[Anastasis 23469]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

because the frame of colonizer/colonized is the only way to view the world. 

It takes a special type of propaganda artist to try to convince the rest of us that western colonialism was not a major geopolitical influence shaping the world during the 16th through 21st century and is not particularly relevant to the current topic. SEe EuRoPeAn iSn'T rEaLly A tHinG. 

[F250 28767]

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Never saw this response. This just isn’t correct, particularly the part about their origins as white Euros. As if some Germanic tribe one day said, yeah, let’s speak Yiddish and observe weird customs. 

Go home Rex, you're drunk again.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

Go home Rex, you're drunk again.

I’m not the one the purported Ashkenazis derived from Vikings in the 1200s. All blind hair and blue eyes and shit. 

[F250 28767]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The whole point is that “European” isn’t a thing and is useless as a label outside of purely geographic designators and European Union institutions. Well and racists and nutty progressives who talk about “European heritage” as if that has any meaning.  

Bullshit.

The British settled Palestine with large migrations of Europeans that were also Jewish. Your entire argument is ridiculous. "They were not European, they were Jews." lulz

 

[F250 28767]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

I’m not the one the purported Ashkenazis derived from Vikings in the 1200s. All blind hair and blue eyes and shit. 

No one said that. I assume you are not stupid but just struggling with your alcoholism again.

[Incredulity 11665]

arguing the mitochondrial DNA of Jewish people has to rank really fucking high in the rankings of Peak Surly.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

3 minutes ago, F250 said:

Bullshit.

The British settled Palestine with large migrations of Europeans that were also Jewish. Your entire argument is ridiculous. "They were not European, they were Jews." lulz

 

Jews from Europe whose ancestors were from modern-day Israel, Jordan and Lebanon. You were CLEARLY trying to make the case these were ancestral Euros skipping their way back into Israel. It’s a fucking bullshit argument and you know it. 

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

No one said that. I assume you are not stupid but just struggling with your alcoholism again.

No shit?  I made a hyperbolic joke about your ridiculous take. 

[F250 28767]

10 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Jews from Europe whose ancestors were from modern-day Israel, Jordan and Lebanon. You were CLEARLY trying to make the case these were ancestral Euros skipping their way back into Israel. It’s a fucking bullshit argument and you know it. 

No shit?  I made a hyperbolic joke about your ridiculous take. 

Maybe you are just dumb and happen to be a drunk.

I never said that. I said the Ashenkazi emerged in Europe during the middle ages. Are you unaware of this historical fact?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

The handwringing over British Mandate Palestine is also hilarious.  All these countries are fairly new and made up.  They invented royal families. No one is clamoring over the permanent right of the Sublime Porte to rule Jordan. For that matter, no one seriously entertains that Turkey should give back Ararat to Armenians. 

In the upheaval of the early to mid-20th century your borders changed and you didn’t get all you want? The collapse of the Ottomans and World War II changed the map? Welcome to the club. Lol at the idea this is because of “Europeans” being the problem and not “Jews.” 
 

If the problem is Europeans, someone tell me what happened to “not European” Jews in North Africa…..or Jews in the rest of the Arab world who lived across the region in 1948 but now don’t. 
 

A two state solution remains the only real one but that will never happen as long as Israel is illegitimate is the common narratives 

Edited May 29 by 956 Worldwide

[Macklemore 2876]

37 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I’m not the one the purported Ashkenazis derived from Vikings in the 1200s. All blind hair and blue eyes and shit. 

Read up on the Khazars converting to Judaism. Your mind will be blown.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

8 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Read up on the Khazars converting to Judaism. Your mind will be blown.

That didn’t happen. 

[Anastasis 23469]

8 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Read up on the Khazars converting to Judaism. Your mind will be blown.

That is not real. 

[Macklemore 2876]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That didn’t happen. 

[F250 28767]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The handwringing over British Mandate Palestine is also hilarious.  All these countries are fairly new and made up.  They invented royal families. No one is clamoring over the permanent right of the Sublime Porte to rule Jordan. For that matter, no one seriously entertains that Turkey should give back Ararat to Armenians. 

In the upheaval of the early to mid-20th century your borders changed and you didn’t get all you want? The collapse of the Ottomans and World War II changed the map? Welcome to the club. Lol at the idea this is because of “Europeans” being the problem and not “Jews.” 
 

If the problem is Europeans, someone tell me what happened to “not European” Jews in North Africa…..or Jews in the rest of the Arab world who lived across the region in 1948 but now don’t. 
 

A two state solution remains the only real one but that will never happen as long as Israel is illegitimate is the common narratives 

No shit, Sherlock.

This is what I have been saying. The conflict is a modern one and not some ancient religious war that was mentioned up thread and the Ashenkazi migrated from Europe and are not the biblical Israelites.

The current conflict is a modern one that originated in the 20th century and is primarily a conflict between the descendants of European migrants and Palestinians.

[BrickHorn 18218]

Hat tip to @F250. You’re doing the Lord’s work on this thread. Bravo.  

[GW Hayduke 1953]

So if today’s Israelis are descendants from Europe, it’s not ok for Israel to subjugate, starve, and kill the civilian Palestinian population.

Also, if you choose to believe Europe is not a thing, you can also believe it is not ok for Israel to subjugate, starve, and kill the civilian Palestinian population. 
 

good discussion

[956 Worldwide 34705]

The idea that Jews in what was the Holy Roman Empire developed some unique customs, languages, and tradition during the millennia they lived there is fairly uncontroversial self-evident. Jews did the same in the Arab world, Spain, Ethiopia, and the Caucuses. Or Bukhara for that matter. 
 

What is absurd is trying to parse the existence of this community out as some sort “European Jews” with a marginal connection to the 3000 year old continuity of Jewish existence, as if there are some other Jews with a better claim to that heritage.  Despite the obvious cultural interchange that happens everywhere, the defining aspect of being Jewish in the diaspora is that of being different, some of that self-maintained and much of it imposed.  They didn’t just emerge from the ground in the Holy Roman Empire—they just moved there from where they were before. 

Boiling this down to “white Europeans vs. brown locals” is no less simplistic and wrong than “Jacob vs. Ishmael is still going on.” 

Edited May 29 by 956 Worldwide

[Hank_Hill 18803]

Continents aren’t real and even if they were it doesn’t matter because the Ashkenazi originated prior to the split of Pangea. My history is unassailable.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

7 minutes ago, Hank_Hill said:

Continents aren’t real and even if they were it doesn’t matter because the Ashkenazi originated prior to the split of Pangea. My history is unassailable.

Continents are real but the idea of some sort of “continental heritage” is the simple part.  An immigrant from Africa is “African” but there’s no such thing as “African heritage”— there are over 50 countries and many more languages and cultures, all of that is more relevant to their heritage and history.  Bangladeshis and Koreans do not share some “Asian heritage” in any meaningful way. 
 

European Jews of course existed and absolutely created communities, they were there for well over 2000 years!  They are still there! Determining their defining characteristic as “white European people” is the absurd part of this discourse.  Some Jews can be said to have become EXTREMELY integrated and alike to their non-Jewish neighbors— in France, in Vienna, in London.  Others on shtetls shared much less. It’s not a helpful category, and Jews across Europe found out in a visceral way how little any shared identity and culture mattered. 

[F250 28767]

My grandpa's mom was an Ashenkazi Frenchie that migrated to Palestine*, so this thread hits close to home.

However, I do acknowledge that France isn't a real place and doesn't reside in a ficticious farway land called Europe.

 

*Texas.

 

[Hank_Hill 18803]

[Incredulity 11665]