Israel-Hamas war thread

[Rex Kramer 1369]

6 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

What's bad is that you don't know why Israel was granted statehood, while Palestine wasn't, yet you blame Palestine for everything bad and treat Israel like some beacon of peace and love.

Huh. I don’t know why Israel was granted statehood and exactly how Palestine hasn’t achieved it?  Enlighten me. 

I never said Israel was a beacon of peace. 

[InkaUtexas 26160]

4 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Well maybe, just maybe if Hamas wasn’t in control, and Gaza could go a few months without firing a rocket, then they could have something similar. 

There were raids WHEN israel was in control. I guess Lebanon is also a failed state.

 

[Rex Kramer 1369]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

There were raids WHEN israel was in control. I guess Lebanon is also a failed state.

 

Huh?

[956 Worldwide 34789]

 

Edited June 9 by 956 Worldwide

[Brian Fantana 6691]

25 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Huh. I don’t know why Israel was granted statehood and exactly how Palestine hasn’t achieved it?  Enlighten me. 

I never said Israel was a beacon of peace. 

This word is your clue.

[Brian Fantana 6691]

37 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Well maybe, just maybe if Hamas wasn’t in control, and Gaza could go a few months without firing a rocket, then they could have something similar. 

They're not in control of the West Bank. And yet Palestinians are regularly killed/displaced and have their homes stolen by settler militias backed and supported by the IDF. I've said all along that if you want to imagine a Gaza without Hamas in charge, just look to what's happening in the West Bank. What's the excuse over there?

Oh, and by the way, this is what I was referring to earlier in case you're still confused about why people think you are out of your fucking mind when discussing this topic:

[956 Worldwide 34789]

Absolutely cannot get over that the four hostages were held by a “journalist” and at a doctor’s house where they kept one of the women as a slave.  The journalist was filing amazing stories while he held these people at his home. “My house will always be open.” 
 

 

Edited June 9 by 956 Worldwide

[956 Worldwide 34789]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

I don't know what "compassion signaling" is, but I'm definitely signaling that some of you need a history lesson. 

Quick question, is Palestine allowed to have a military? 

If not, (spoiler, no was the correct answer), how do you propose they defend themselves against Israel?

I'll also answer that for you...asymmetrical warfare is their only option, so don't be surprised when they use it.

Taking hostages and murdering and raping isn’t asymmetrical warfare and it is in fact the proximate cause of Gaza needing to “defend” itself in the first place. 

Edited June 9 by 956 Worldwide

[Rex Kramer 1369]

7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Oh, and by the way, this is what I was referring to earlier in case you're still confused about why people think you are out of your fucking mind when discussing this topic:

It was a joke. Hank was poking fun at my hyperbole about how I was shocked things were in dispute.  This is right in line with your disingenuous nature. And I note how you did read my response but cannot effectively argue against it. So you resort to twisting words and copying/pasting snippets of responses totally out of context. 

All of this renders you totally ineffective in these arguments.  You want to hate and belittle. There is no attempt to change minds. Probably because you know you’re fighting a losing battle and are mad at the world. 

[Brian Fantana 6691]

If it was a joke I genuinely apologize. It sure didn't seem like one in the context of the discussion at the time.

[Brian Fantana 6691]

15 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

It was a joke. Hank was poking fun at my hyperbole about how I was shocked things were in dispute.  This is right in line with your disingenuous nature. And I note how you did read my response but cannot effectively argue against it. So you resort to twisting words and copying/pasting snippets of responses totally out of context. 

All of this renders you totally ineffective in these arguments.  You want to hate and belittle. There is no attempt to change minds. Probably because you know you’re fighting a losing battle and are mad at the world. 

Also, my disinterest in responding is mostly from fatigue. I have made all my earnest and measured arguments, repeatedly, well before you decided to grace us with your presence once again on this message board retire the Porterhouse username and go back to this one. I have little desire to repeat myself ad infinitum and simply desire to mock unserious individuals such as yourself.

[DixonHur 11393]

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Enlighten me. 

Truman went against the advice of the State Department and the wishes of our European allies to grant Israel statehood because Jewish votes were important to his reelection.

This recognition enabled Israel to have a military, but not Palestine.

[Brian Fantana 6691]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Truman went against the advice of the State Department and the wishes of our European allies to grant Israel statehood because Jewish votes were important to his reelection.

This recognition enabled Israel to have a military, but not Palestine.

You're wrong, idiot, they were given a military by God.

[InkaUtexas 26160]

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Huh?

I try to be quiet, but damn man, you do need a history class.

There were Hamas attacks from Gaza BEFORE Israel handed it back to PA control.

[Rex Kramer 1369]

43 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

If it was a joke I genuinely apologize. It sure didn't seem like one in the context of the discussion at the time.

Yeah because I believe everyone who supports Palestine is a pedophile. Seriously?  Read earlier in that thread. 

[Rex Kramer 1369]

46 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I have little desire to repeat myself ad infinitum and simply desire to mock unserious individuals such as yourself.

Yet you do just that. Aggressively mocking those with whom you disagree (ad infinitum) makes you appear a most unserious individual. 

19 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I try to be quiet, but damn man, you do need a history class.

There were Hamas attacks from Gaza BEFORE Israel handed it back to PA control.

I’m aware of all of this. I still have no idea what point you’re trying to make. 

[DixonHur 11393]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Absolutely cannot get over that the four hostages were held by a “journalist” and at a doctor’s house where they kept one of the women as a slave.  The journalist was filing amazing stories while he held these people at his home. “My house will always be open.” 
 

 

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

[InkaUtexas 26160]

6 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Yet you do just that. Aggressively mocking those with whom you disagree (ad infinitum) makes you appear a most unserious individual. 

I’m aware of all of this. I still have no idea what point you’re trying to make. 

There was never a time when Gaza did not attack from there. Dude, not attacking you. Again, I try to stay quiet while the small group discusses what should be. I gave up trying to show how it could work.

However, with all those attacks, Israel never committed the atrocities they are now.

 

9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

Where?

[956 Worldwide 34789]

9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

I’m very sorry for whatever you went through but it’s truly a terrible take to trivialize being kidnapped and held captive against your will for nine months. 

[Rex Kramer 1369]

21 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

I think he was probably speaking of a US tax shielded journalist writing about this, and his doctor father, complicit with or members of Hamas. Just guessing. 

[DixonHur 11393]

12 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Where?

Peru about 25 years ago.

10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m very sorry for whatever you went through but it’s truly a terrible take to trivialize being kidnapped and held captive against your will for nine months. 

Agreed in principle, but it seemed like you posting that as being a particularly eggregious captivity.

[DixonHur 11393]

6 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I think he was probably speaking of a US tax shielded journalist writing about this, and his doctor father, complicit with or members of Hamas. Just guessing. 

Wasn't he a freelance journalist?  I don't think he was an employee of the charity.

Nor was I under the impression that the charity knew about his hostage taking.

If they were they should be prosecuted.

Otherwise it's not really their fault.

Edited June 9 by DixonHur

[Rex Kramer 1369]

14 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

There was never a time when Gaza did not attack from there. Dude, not attacking you. Again, I try to stay quiet while the small group discusses what should be. I gave up trying to show how it could work.

However, with all those attacks, Israel never committed the atrocities they are now.

Because of the success and severity of October 7th. On the heels of 20 years of Hamas strengthening with very overt Iranian support. Do you question Israel invading Gaza at all?  Do you think they should’ve had an initial invasion, wipe out a chuck of Hamas, then left?  Atrocities will occur in war and particularly when you’re fighting a group like Hamas. 

I still do not get your question about Lebanon being a failed state. Not sure what point you’re making to me here. And I fail to see why giving Palestine a MILITARY and STATE as a reward for its leadership’s barbaric act would even be on the table. I’m pretty sure you didn’t make that point - it was DixonHur - but you sure seem to be giving it some thought. 

[InkaUtexas 26160]

7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Peru about 25 years ago.

Agreed in principle, but it seemed like you posting that as being a particularly eggregious captivity.

Sendero and MRTA were nice. I was in Peru in about the same time. Narcos were the real dicks. Or the Army's goons.

[Rex Kramer 1369]

4 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Wasn't he a freelance journalist?  I don't think he was an employee of the charity.

Nor was I under the impression that the charity knew about his hostage taking.

If they were they should be prosecuted.

Otherwise it's not really their fault.

Agreed on all, but it’s eye opening that we are getting some reporting from a journalist that actively held an Israeli woman hostage. I suspect that was 956’s point, and you’re focusing on stupid quotes of that hostage. 

[InkaUtexas 26160]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Because of the success and severity of October 7th. On the heels of 20 years of Hamas strengthening with very overt Iranian support. Do you question Israel invading Gaza at all?  Do you think they should’ve had an initial invasion, wipe out a chuck of Hamas, then left?  Atrocities will occur in war and particularly when you’re fighting a group like Hamas. 

I still do not get your question about Lebanon being a failed state. Not sure what point you’re making to me here. And I fail to see why giving Palestine a MILITARY and STATE as a reward for its leadership’s barbaric act would even be on the table. I’m pretty sure you didn’t make that point - it was DixonHur - but you sure seem to be giving it some thought. 

No. But I would have not done it this way. They have some solid groups. I would have gone with them, not conscripted troops who only know how to use a 155mm.

States need a military. The PA was only allowed to have a police. It is not only for defense, but it embodies a government. And the lack of a unified command and control was something Hamas took advantage of.

[DixonHur 11393]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Sendero and MRTA were nice. I was in Peru in about the same time. Narcos were the real dicks. Or the Army's goons.

I wouldn't have described my time with Sendero as nice, but that's just me, lol.

I mean they let me live, which was nice, but others in the group weren't as lucky.

I had "American privilege".  They didn't want the US involved.

[InkaUtexas 26160]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I wouldn't have described my time with Sendero as nice, but that's just me, lol.

I mean they let me live, which was nice, but others in the group weren't as lucky.

I had "American privilege".  They didn't want the US involved.

Hardline or Lima wannabes? Sendor0 (Front) was pretty hard and cared little fucks about what the US thought.

Shit, they attacked the US, Chinese and Russian embassies on the same night. I was in San Pedro that evening. Fun times.

 

[956 Worldwide 34789]

25 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Peru about 25 years ago.

Agreed in principle, but it seemed like you posting that as being a particularly eggregious captivity.

My point here is that these people, at least, were not being held by “Hamas” in some secret hole or tunnel. They were handed over to “civilians,” a journalist and a doctor, and at least one family proceeded to treat a kidnapped young woman as a household servant. At the very least this should cause some reflection on what Hamas is and how embedded it is within Gazan society. 

[InkaUtexas 26160]

@956 Worldwide I understand what you are saying. I also know that for every fighter/terrorist there are 10 in support. That still does not say it is OK to level a school.

And there are a lot of times when you are told what to do, and if you say no, well does not work out well.

 

[Brian Fantana 6691]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My point here is that these people, at least, were not being held by “Hamas” in some secret hole or tunnel. They were handed over to “civilians,” a journalist and a doctor, and at least one family proceeded to treat a kidnapped young woman as a household servant. At the very least this should cause some reflection on what Hamas is and how embedded it is within Gazan society. 

 

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

@956 Worldwide I understand what you are saying. I also know that for every fighter/terrorist there are 10 in support. That still does not say it is OK to level a school.

And there are a lot of times when you are told what to do, and if you say no, well does not work out well.

 

All very important points to consider.

The bolded part especially hits home for me, I've heard similar (and darker) sentiments from my cousin and his family.

Is it known whether they were willing collaborators or coerced? I haven't seen anything in the articles I've read that would firmly indicate either.

[Rex Kramer 1369]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

@956 Worldwide I understand what you are saying. I also know that for every fighter/terrorist there are 10 in support. That still does not say it is OK to level a school.

And there are a lot of times when you are told what to do, and if you say no, well does not work out well.

 

10 in support doesn’t suggest the lack of connection between Hamas and Palestinians so many experts tout. I do agree about a possible scenario where they were “forced” to do this. There are ways to get out of that, though. I feel zero guilt about their deaths.

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

 

All very important points to consider.

The bolded part especially hits home for me, I've heard similar (and darker) sentiments from my cousin and his family.

Is it known whether they were willing collaborators or coerced? I haven't seen anything in the articles I've read that would firmly indicate either.

I’m genuinely interested in your family there. Elaborate if you care to. 

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2652]

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

Wtf   This is what you get from her story?  It wasn’t that bad? Insanity 

[Serak The Preparer 3433]

4 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

Yet you do just that. Aggressively mocking those with whom you disagree (ad infinitum) makes you appear a most unserious individual. 

/spiderman pointing.gif

[DixonHur 11393]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Hardline or Lima wannabes?

Ayacucho 

[Rex Kramer 1369]

30 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

/spiderman pointing.gif

Fair enough.  You’re right. It’s an emotional topic. 

[InkaUtexas 26160]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Ayacucho 

Why the fuck were you up there 25 years ago? That is fucking dumb. Lori Berenson would have told ya 

[DixonHur 11393]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Why the fuck were you up there 25 years ago? That is fucking dumb. Lori Berenson would have told ya 

Lol, yep.  I was advised against it, but young Dixon liked to live dangerously.  I used to walk through Surquillo at night too.

Anyway, my girlfriend was spending the long weekend with her mother who was home from Miami, and the bus to Ayacucho was the first one leaving.

I have a minor in Meso-American anthropology and wanted to visit the Wari ruins outside town, so I said "fuck it", and went.  Obviously I stood out, since I was the only white person in town, but the people were actually quite nice, and I didn't have any issues in or around Ayacucho, including hitchhiking way out into the mountain looking for a waterfall I never found. 

The problem was on the way back to Lima when my bus got hijacked about an hour into the trip.

[InkaUtexas 26160]

36 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Lol, yep.  I was advised against it, but young Dixon liked to live dangerously.  I used to walk through Surquillo at night too.

Anyway, my girlfriend was spending the long weekend with her mother who was home from Miami, and the bus to Ayacucho was the first one leaving.

I have a minor in Meso-American anthropology and wanted to visit the Wari ruins outside town, so I said "fuck it", and went.  Obviously I stood out, since I was the only white person in town, but the people were actually quite nice, and I didn't have any issues in or around Ayacucho, including hitchhiking way out into the mountain looking for a waterfall I never found. 

The problem was on the way back to Lima when my bus got hijacked about an hour into the trip.

But this is after the Sendero was broke. And yeah, been on that road. You were the dumbshit from ILAS that got snagged? if so I did not sleep for a few days since I knew all the Sinchis.

[MagicSoccerSpray 1732]

6 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Sendero and MRTA were nice.

Define "nice"

[DixonHur 11393]

42 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But this is after the Sendero was broke. And yeah, been on that road. You were the dumbshit from ILAS that got snagged? if so I did not sleep for a few days since I knew all the Sinchis.

Not sure what you mean by "after the Sendero was broke."

According to the CIA guys who did my debrief, they were well funded and increasing their activities during that time.

And no, I was at ESAN, not ILAS.

Ironically, my girlfriend's dad was a high ranking Minister in Fujimori's government.  Luckily that fact stayed hidden from the SL or I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

[InkaUtexas 26160]

10 hours ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

Define "nice"

They tended to not torture and kill internationals. The cartels would.

[InkaUtexas 26160]

10 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Not sure what you mean by "after the Sendero was broke."

According to the CIA guys who did my debrief, they were well funded and increasing their activities during that time.

And no, I was at ESAN, not ILAS.

Ironically, my girlfriend's dad was a high ranking Minister in Fujimori's government.  Luckily that fact stayed hidden from the SL or I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

Yeah, that is interesting.

They were active, but not as organized and such. Once they were on the run in 1991 they had a harder time organizing. Shit, they are still out there, and will never go away. Like Hamas even if Gaza is taken by the IDF.

[Biff Tannen 45747]

Ceasefire agreed to by UN.  I'm guessing Israel will do no such thing.

[Rex Kramer 1369]

31 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Ceasefire agreed to by UN.  I'm guessing Israel will do no such thing.

I don’t know why they would without capitulation from Hamas. Hamas will not capitulate. They’re more interested in Israel being the bad guy than they are in peace or the welfare of their own people. 

What is surprising is the US authored this. It is telling that Biden feels pressure from the far left. Israel used to be the left’s darling, and now the crazies are at least adversely affecting the party. These have been dangerous waters for Biden to wade in. 

What is slightly surprising is Russia acquiesced the UN consensus by abstaining. The UN is a toothless organization and I fully expect Israel to utterly ignore. 

[956 Worldwide 34789]

Per our UN Ambassador Israel has accepted the deal. I highly doubt she’d walk out there like this without strong justification to believe it’s true. 
 

[InkaUtexas 26160]

I don't think Hamas will take it. Their leadership is not at risk. That will always be the weakness in the IDF's plan. The fodder and civilians will pay while the big wigs are kicking it outside of Gaza.

[Rex Kramer 1369]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Per our UN Ambassador Israel has accepted the deal. I highly doubt she’d walk out there like this without strong justification to believe it’s true. 
 

Some deft diplomacy getting Israel to agree before Hamas. Israel will walk out of this looking much better than if it stubbornly carried forward. Which I fully expect them to revert to at the point in the future when Hamas makes unreasonable demands. 

[956 Worldwide 34789]

2 hours ago, BeardIP said:

An interesting and as factually accurate as can be had of the play by play:

So zooming out a little, what does all this mean?

Hamas still holds ~120 hostages (a third of whom are presumed dead) and will now inevitably take measures to prevent similar raids, while hardening its own negotiating position (the group said "your captives won’t be released unless our prisoners are freed"). Israel is celebrating what one opposition figure described as “a great light in the terrible darkness”, though its own military concedes it can’t release all remaining 120 hostages the same way - one way or another, that’ll embolden Netanyahu, not push him back to negotiate. And Netanyahu’s unity government has now split, with minister Benny Gantz exiting overnight. Plus, critics have noted Netanyahu’s availability for Shabbat-breaching photo ops with the rescued hostages, but not to meet the many angry families still awaiting news. Still, we don’t see this dislodging him from power any time soon.

So to answer our own question - what does this latest development mean? In a geopolitical sense, not a lot. We continue to see more of the same ahead.

Also worth noting:

Netanyahu drew comparisons with the Entebbe raid of 1976, when Israeli commandos rescued 102 hostages being held by Palestinian and German hijackers on a tarmac in Uganda. Netanyahu’s older brother died in that raid, which inspired a dozen subsequent films. Israel’s Western partners - like the US, France, and Germany - have welcomed the release of the hostages. Others - like Egypt, Lebanon, and Kuwait - have condemned the high human cost involved.

The most important part of this piece is that, as suspected, the vast majority of Gazan casualties took place during exfiltration. The theory that the air raids took place in advance of the incursion to get hostages never made much sense. I am sure we will hear all about how the people providing overwatch should have stood down and let Hamas kill the hostages and the rescue teams.

Literally all that needed to happen was to let the Israelis leave with hostages and the only deaths are the hostage takers. 

[Brian Fantana 6691]

22 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

I’m genuinely interested in your family there. Elaborate if you care to. 

I will not. I've already had two people try to doxx me on this site over this topic after learning I had family in Israel and Gaza. And a third attempt that was successful but the intentions were noble so I was okay with it.

e: I appreciate that your interest is probably genuine, no offense.

Edited June 10 by Brian Fantana
clarification