Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted
1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Enlighten me. 

Truman went against the advice of the State Department and the wishes of our European allies to grant Israel statehood because Jewish votes were important to his reelection.

This recognition enabled Israel to have a military, but not Palestine.

Posted
1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Truman went against the advice of the State Department and the wishes of our European allies to grant Israel statehood because Jewish votes were important to his reelection.

This recognition enabled Israel to have a military, but not Palestine.

You're wrong, idiot, they were given a military by God.

Posted
1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Absolutely cannot get over that the four hostages were held by a “journalist” and at a doctor’s house where they kept one of the women as a slave.  The journalist was filing amazing stories while he held these people at his home. “My house will always be open.” 
 

image.thumb.png.3ec75d0242d68a17feeb18b428429ca9.png

 

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

Posted
6 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Yet you do just that. Aggressively mocking those with whom you disagree (ad infinitum) makes you appear a most unserious individual. 

I’m aware of all of this. I still have no idea what point you’re trying to make. 

There was never a time when Gaza did not attack from there. Dude, not attacking you. Again, I try to stay quiet while the small group discusses what should be. I gave up trying to show how it could work.

However, with all those attacks, Israel never committed the atrocities they are now.

 

9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

Where?

Posted
9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

I’m very sorry for whatever you went through but it’s truly a terrible take to trivialize being kidnapped and held captive against your will for nine months. 

  • Like 1
Posted
12 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Where?

Peru about 25 years ago.

10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m very sorry for whatever you went through but it’s truly a terrible take to trivialize being kidnapped and held captive against your will for nine months. 

Agreed in principle, but it seemed like you posting that as being a particularly eggregious captivity.

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I think he was probably speaking of a US tax shielded journalist writing about this, and his doctor father, complicit with or members of Hamas. Just guessing. 

Wasn't he a freelance journalist?  I don't think he was an employee of the charity.

Nor was I under the impression that the charity knew about his hostage taking.

If they were they should be prosecuted.

Otherwise it's not really their fault.

Edited by DixonHur
  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Peru about 25 years ago.

Agreed in principle, but it seemed like you posting that as being a particularly eggregious captivity.

Sendero and MRTA were nice. I was in Peru in about the same time. Narcos were the real dicks. Or the Army's goons.

Posted
2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Because of the success and severity of October 7th. On the heels of 20 years of Hamas strengthening with very overt Iranian support. Do you question Israel invading Gaza at all?  Do you think they should’ve had an initial invasion, wipe out a chuck of Hamas, then left?  Atrocities will occur in war and particularly when you’re fighting a group like Hamas. 

I still do not get your question about Lebanon being a failed state. Not sure what point you’re making to me here. And I fail to see why giving Palestine a MILITARY and STATE as a reward for its leadership’s barbaric act would even be on the table. I’m pretty sure you didn’t make that point - it was DixonHur - but you sure seem to be giving it some thought. 

No. But I would have not done it this way. They have some solid groups. I would have gone with them, not conscripted troops who only know how to use a 155mm.

States need a military. The PA was only allowed to have a police. It is not only for defense, but it embodies a government. And the lack of a unified command and control was something Hamas took advantage of.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Sendero and MRTA were nice. I was in Peru in about the same time. Narcos were the real dicks. Or the Army's goons.

I wouldn't have described my time with Sendero as nice, but that's just me, lol.

I mean they let me live, which was nice, but others in the group weren't as lucky.

I had "American privilege".  They didn't want the US involved.

Posted
5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I wouldn't have described my time with Sendero as nice, but that's just me, lol.

I mean they let me live, which was nice, but others in the group weren't as lucky.

I had "American privilege".  They didn't want the US involved.

Hardline or Lima wannabes? Sendor0 (Front) was pretty hard and cared little fucks about what the US thought.

Shit, they attacked the US, Chinese and Russian embassies on the same night. I was in San Pedro that evening. Fun times.

 

Posted
25 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Peru about 25 years ago.

Agreed in principle, but it seemed like you posting that as being a particularly eggregious captivity.

My point here is that these people, at least, were not being held by “Hamas” in some secret hole or tunnel. They were handed over to “civilians,” a journalist and a doctor, and at least one family proceeded to treat a kidnapped young woman as a household servant. At the very least this should cause some reflection on what Hamas is and how embedded it is within Gazan society. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 3
Posted

@956 Worldwide I understand what you are saying. I also know that for every fighter/terrorist there are 10 in support. That still does not say it is OK to level a school.

And there are a lot of times when you are told what to do, and if you say no, well does not work out well.

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My point here is that these people, at least, were not being held by “Hamas” in some secret hole or tunnel. They were handed over to “civilians,” a journalist and a doctor, and at least one family proceeded to treat a kidnapped young woman as a household servant. At the very least this should cause some reflection on what Hamas is and how embedded it is within Gazan society. 

 

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

@956 Worldwide I understand what you are saying. I also know that for every fighter/terrorist there are 10 in support. That still does not say it is OK to level a school.

And there are a lot of times when you are told what to do, and if you say no, well does not work out well.

 

All very important points to consider.

The bolded part especially hits home for me, I've heard similar (and darker) sentiments from my cousin and his family.

Is it known whether they were willing collaborators or coerced? I haven't seen anything in the articles I've read that would firmly indicate either.

Posted
3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Oh no, a hostage had to do dishes and her captors didn't knock!  

Are you serious?  Have you ever been held captive by a terrorist organization?  

I have, and while I wasn't made to do dishes, doing so wouldn't have made it to the top of my list of complaints.

Wtf   This is what you get from her story?  It wasn’t that bad? Insanity 

Posted
Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Why the fuck were you up there 25 years ago? That is fucking dumb. Lori Berenson would have told ya 

Lol, yep.  I was advised against it, but young Dixon liked to live dangerously.  I used to walk through Surquillo at night too.

Anyway, my girlfriend was spending the long weekend with her mother who was home from Miami, and the bus to Ayacucho was the first one leaving.

I have a minor in Meso-American anthropology and wanted to visit the Wari ruins outside town, so I said "fuck it", and went.  Obviously I stood out, since I was the only white person in town, but the people were actually quite nice, and I didn't have any issues in or around Ayacucho, including hitchhiking way out into the mountain looking for a waterfall I never found. 

The problem was on the way back to Lima when my bus got hijacked about an hour into the trip.

Posted
36 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Lol, yep.  I was advised against it, but young Dixon liked to live dangerously.  I used to walk through Surquillo at night too.

Anyway, my girlfriend was spending the long weekend with her mother who was home from Miami, and the bus to Ayacucho was the first one leaving.

I have a minor in Meso-American anthropology and wanted to visit the Wari ruins outside town, so I said "fuck it", and went.  Obviously I stood out, since I was the only white person in town, but the people were actually quite nice, and I didn't have any issues in or around Ayacucho, including hitchhiking way out into the mountain looking for a waterfall I never found. 

The problem was on the way back to Lima when my bus got hijacked about an hour into the trip.

But this is after the Sendero was broke. And yeah, been on that road. You were the dumbshit from ILAS that got snagged? if so I did not sleep for a few days since I knew all the Sinchis.

Posted
42 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But this is after the Sendero was broke. And yeah, been on that road. You were the dumbshit from ILAS that got snagged? if so I did not sleep for a few days since I knew all the Sinchis.

Not sure what you mean by "after the Sendero was broke."

According to the CIA guys who did my debrief, they were well funded and increasing their activities during that time.

And no, I was at ESAN, not ILAS.

Ironically, my girlfriend's dad was a high ranking Minister in Fujimori's government.  Luckily that fact stayed hidden from the SL or I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

Posted
10 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Not sure what you mean by "after the Sendero was broke."

According to the CIA guys who did my debrief, they were well funded and increasing their activities during that time.

And no, I was at ESAN, not ILAS.

Ironically, my girlfriend's dad was a high ranking Minister in Fujimori's government.  Luckily that fact stayed hidden from the SL or I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

Yeah, that is interesting.

They were active, but not as organized and such. Once they were on the run in 1991 they had a harder time organizing. Shit, they are still out there, and will never go away. Like Hamas even if Gaza is taken by the IDF.

Posted

I don't think Hamas will take it. Their leadership is not at risk. That will always be the weakness in the IDF's plan. The fodder and civilians will pay while the big wigs are kicking it outside of Gaza.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
2 hours ago, BeardIP said:

An interesting and as factually accurate as can be had of the play by play:

So zooming out a little, what does all this mean?

  • Hamas still holds ~120 hostages (a third of whom are presumed dead) and will now inevitably take measures to prevent similar raids, while hardening its own negotiating position (the group said "your captives won’t be released unless our prisoners are freed").

  • Israel is celebrating what one opposition figure described as “a great light in the terrible darkness”, though its own military concedes it can’t release all remaining 120 hostages the same way - one way or another, that’ll embolden Netanyahu, not push him back to negotiate.

  • And Netanyahu’s unity government has now split, with minister Benny Gantz exiting overnight. Plus, critics have noted Netanyahu’s availability for Shabbat-breaching photo ops with the rescued hostages, but not to meet the many angry families still awaiting news. Still, we don’t see this dislodging him from power any time soon.

So to answer our own question - what does this latest development mean? In a geopolitical sense, not a lot. We continue to see more of the same ahead.

Also worth noting:

  • Netanyahu drew comparisons with the Entebbe raid of 1976, when Israeli commandos rescued 102 hostages being held by Palestinian and German hijackers on a tarmac in Uganda. Netanyahu’s older brother died in that raid, which inspired a dozen subsequent films.

  • Israel’s Western partners - like the US, France, and Germany - have welcomed the release of the hostages. Others - like Egypt, Lebanon, and Kuwait - have condemned the high human cost involved.

The most important part of this piece is that, as suspected, the vast majority of Gazan casualties took place during exfiltration. The theory that the air raids took place in advance of the incursion to get hostages never made much sense. I am sure we will hear all about how the people providing overwatch should have stood down and let Hamas kill the hostages and the rescue teams.

Literally all that needed to happen was to let the Israelis leave with hostages and the only deaths are the hostage takers. 

  • Hook 'Em 3
Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

I’m genuinely interested in your family there. Elaborate if you care to. 

I will not. I've already had two people try to doxx me on this site over this topic after learning I had family in Israel and Gaza. And a third attempt that was successful but the intentions were noble so I was okay with it.

e: I appreciate that your interest is probably genuine, no offense.

Edited by Brian Fantana
clarification
Posted
31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I don't think Hamas will take it. Their leadership is not at risk. That will always be the weakness in the IDF's plan. The fodder and civilians will pay while the big wigs are kicking it outside of Gaza.

I still maintain that Israel's leadership doesn't actually desire the end of Hamas. If they did, it should be abundantly clear what really needs to happen.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
48 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I still maintain that Israel's leadership doesn't actually desire the end of Hamas. If they did, it should be abundantly clear what really needs to happen.

The flip side to this is that accepting a deal now could very likely lead to the end of Hamas on the Palestinian side.  They are not subject to pressures from the electorate like a democracy but they do feel it in their own way and right now their results include the near total destruction of Gaza, tens of thousands of deaths, and no record of competent government.  They are getting the rally round the flag boost but that will collapse when there are no bombs falling but Gaza has to rebuild. This is why they keep holding out for more prisoner releases but that isn’t a good deal every time another civilian dies. 

The other hard reality is that either way they are completely dependent on foreign a support, even more so than Israel and they can’t agree to a ceasefire until Iran and Hezbolllah give the nod. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Posted
29 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Just read about how Hamas is betting on civilian deaths.  I wonder if the WSJ is credible as a source. 

Ok.  Not sure what your point is.

Have there been posters on this thread talking about how much they admire Hamas?

The problem some of us have is the conflation of Hamas with Palestine and the idea that Israel is a blameless party to the situation.

Most Gaza civilians have nothing to do with Hamas, but the borders are closed, so they're trapped there with them none-the-less.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

I never said Israel is blameless. I believe Hama and Palestinians sympathetic to Hamas will do everything they can to spin any situation such that Israel is made to look like the bad guy even when they aren’t. They’ll lie and kill their own or be complicit in killing their own to blame Israel. And many of you fall for it repeatedly with blissful ignorance despite knowing the PR machine Hamas is. Again, Israel isn’t blameless. 

And in this short para, you actually find yourself agreeing with most of the people who have participated in this thread.  I don't think that many folks around here dispute the essentials of these truths:

1) Hamas is shit, and the Oct 7th attacks were evil.

2) Israel has a right/obligation to respond militarily to the Oct 7th attacks and the taking of hostages.

3) Hamas leadership is happy to goad Israel into killing Palestinian civilians because it makes the plight of Palestinians a) more visible than it was before and b) sympathetic.  Hamas, plainly, is GOOD with seeing Palestinian civilians suffer and die today, because Hamas believes that it will serve their ultimate goals.

4) Some military actions of Israel have appropriately intended/tried to limit civilian casualties.

5) Some military actions of Israel have intentionally harmed Palestinian civilians; Israel has foolishly taken Hamas's bait in that respect.

6) Some actions of Israelis (not IDF) have been taken to harm Palestinian civilians (destruction of aid deliveries, etc.), and Israeli forces/police have allowed those to happen.

7) Some significant leaders and elements of Israeli society support the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza of all Palestinians, either by death or removal.

8 ) Hamas leadership and significant elements of Palestinian (particularly Gazan) society want to drive all jews from the levant, either by death or removal.

9) Hamas has lied about/concealed some information regarding civilian deaths in Gaza.

10) Israel has lied about/concealed some information regarding civilian deaths in Gaza.

 

While the movement of idiots protesting on the side of Palestinians who chant "from the river to the sea" and "yay Hamas" bullshit AND the movement of hardline Israelis who are working to have Israel wipe Gaza clean of all life to make way for Israeli settlement are fucking evil, they are not the drivers.  The drivers are leadership -- Hamas and Israeli.  And between those two shitty groups of leaders (yes, Hamas is shittier) are trapped a) Palestinian civilians, and b) Israeli civilians, esp. including hostages.

And in the end, no matter how shitty Hamas is, and no matter how cavalier THEY are with the lives of Palestinian civilians, Israel should not be.  And Israel should not act purposefully to harm civilians, or protect Israelis who are doing so.  And there is significant evidence that those things have happened. No, they are not the ONLY thing that has happened, and no, not all examples that Hamas would like to point to are accurate.  But the point is, Israel is our ally, Israel is supposed to be an actual responsible nation state, and we should hold them accountable.

Hamas is a terrorist movement.  They can't be held accountable by policy points - they don't give a fuck.  They are held accountable only by force....a process that is ongoing as we speak.

When your enemy is a piece of shit who is happy to have the civilians purportedly under its care fall victim to the violence of war, that fucking sucks, and makes the opponent state's job harder....but the opponent state needs to step up to that challenge.  Nobody expects there to be zero civilian casualties.

28 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I am not sure anymore about “most” Gaza civilians having nothing to do with Hamas.

Oh, and as for this, read the accounts of the successful hostage rescue raid.  A bunch of Gazan civilians were complaining like hell about what Hamas has wrought - they blame Hamas for bringing this upon them all.

  • Hook 'Em 5
  • Like 1
Posted
56 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I never said Israel is blameless.

Give us an example where you blamed Israel for anything wrong... like ever?

57 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I am not sure anymore about “most” Gaza civilians having nothing to do with

Hamas' approval rating in Gaza is 32%.  

Posted
1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Give us an example where you blamed Israel for anything wrong... like ever?

Hamas' approval rating in Gaza is 32%.  

That is a familiar number.   Sigh

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
5 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I don’t feel the need to caveat both sides type statements when it’s clear one side is far worse than the other.

Passively ignoring one sides terrible actions because the others are potentially worse is a dangerous slope, but you do you.

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Drool 1
Posted
4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

3) Hamas leadership is happy to goad Israel into killing Palestinian civilians because it makes the plight of Palestinians a) more visible than it was before and b) sympathetic.  Hamas, plainly, is GOOD with seeing Palestinian civilians suffer and die today, because Hamas believes that it will serve their ultimate goals.

Just adding - Hamas is also happy to help Israel increase the body county of civilians because it increases the possibility that Iran and Lebanon get dragged into the conflict. Hamas' goal is to expand the war. Everything they do should be seen through that prism. That's also a reason Israel should be doing everything it can to avoid killing civilians. Israel needs to get Netanyahu out of office and into jail where he belongs, though I wish they'd find the Hamas leader in his underground hole already.

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
4 hours ago, Indomitable said:

I look forward to the protests and demonstrations urging Hamas to release the hostages, thereby expediting an end to the bloodshed. 

Release of hostages doesn't appear to be the primary sticking point. Timetables and durability, otoh, are. 

From the NYT (plain text paste mofos, learn how to use it):

Hamas officials on Tuesday said they delivered to mediators in Qatar and Egypt a response to a cease-fire proposal endorsed by the United Nations Security Council, putting pressure on Israel to make the next move as Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken meets with negotiators in the Middle East.

The Hamas response proposed amendments to the deal endorsed on Monday in a 14-0 Security Council vote that may prove to be another stumbling block to a cease-fire agreement.

The counterproposal came as Mr. Blinken was in the region, meeting with top officials in Israel, Egypt and Jordan, in an effort to advance a peace agreement and urging Hamas to accept the U.N.-backed proposal. He was expected to fly to Qatar on Wednesday for meetings with officials there. Qatar and Egypt have acted as intermediaries between Israel and Hamas, which do not communicate directly with each other.

An official with knowledge of the talks, who asked for anonymity to discuss sensitive diplomacy, said the Palestinian response proposed amendments to the cease-fire plan, including firm timetables for not only a short-term truce but a permanent one, and for a full Israeli withdrawal.

This differs from the three-phase deal Israel proposed, that the Security Council endorsed and that President Biden has been pushing. That plan calls for an immediate cease-fire in phase one as negotiators hammer out a plan for a permanent end to fighting in the second phase. If talks on a permanent end to hostilities take longer than six weeks, the temporary truce would be extended, according to the original proposal.

Israel has said previously that it will not agree to a deal that doesn’t allow it to eradicate Hamas or would force what it considers a premature end to the war.

An Israeli official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive talks, said the Israeli negotiating team had received a copy of Hamas’s response to the proposed agreement through Qatari and Egyptian mediators, characterizing it as tantamount to a rejection of the deal presented by President Biden.

John F. Kirby, a White House spokesman for the National Security Council, said that the U.S. had received Hamas’s response but declined to discuss the details until it had been fully examined. “We are evaluating it right now,” Mr. Kirby said.

Posted

 

 

FWIW

 

https://denvergazette.com/news/nation-world/patagonia-funneled-thousands-to-palestinian-terrorism-linked-group-documents-show/article_6b21821e-50dc-5905-8eb8-126092aac713.amp.html

 

Quote

Patagonia, the outdoor apparel brand with offices across the world, granted tens of thousands of dollars to a group connected to Palestinian terrorism. Now the company says it has launched an internal review into the funding.

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
5 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

I mean the actual article was posted like 10 posts before this.   Screenshots from your weird algo is pretty much a zero value add in this specific thread.

Posted

Report by UN-backed experts cites crimes by Israeli forces, Palestinian militants starting 0ct. 7

GENEVA (AP) — U.N.-backed human rights experts say in a report issued Wednesday that Israeli forces and Palestinian militants engaged in sexual and gender-based violence during the first months of the Israel-Hamas war.

The independent experts, in a detailed chronicling of events that have mostly been reported in the media, said Israeli forces and Palestinian militants committed war crimes, while Israel was also said to have committed crimes against humanity.

Israel, which has refused to cooperate with the body and accused it of bias, rejected the allegations.

The report, which covered the time between the Oct. 7 rampage and the end of last year, laid out a wide array of alleged rights violations and crimes by both sides during the conflict. It said Israeli forces had committed acts including forced starvation, murder or willful killing, collective punishment and intentional attacks on civilians, and that the military wings of Hamas and other armed Palestinian groups had performed deliberate killings and mistreatment of civilians and hostage-takings.

The findings come as the conflict has entered its ninth month with few signs of letting up.

The report said that frequency, prevalence and severity of sexual and gender-based crimes against Palestinians by Israeli security forces during the period late last year amounted to signs that some forms of such violence “are part of ISF operating procedures.”

Despite noting denials by Hamas’ military wing of sexual violence against Israeli women, the report said the experts had documented “cases indicative of sexual violence” against women and men near the site of a large music festival, a military outpost and several kibbutzim that the raiders attacked.

The expert panel was commissioned in 2021 by the U.N.-backed Human Rights Council to look into rights violations and abuses in Israel and the Palestinian areas it controls. Led by Navi Pillay, a former U.N. human rights chief, they are independent experts and do not speak for the world body itself. Israel has refused to cooperate with the team of experts.

Israel’s diplomatic mission in Geneva responded that the report “outrageously and repugnantly attempts to draw a false equivalence between IDF soldiers and Hamas terrorists with regards to acts of sexual violence” and reiterating longstanding claims of anti-Israel discrimination by the experts.

The report and Israel’s response marked the latest sign of the growing gulf between the U.N. and its affiliate institutions and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government over its response to the deadly Oct. 7 rampage and hostage-takings in Israel by armed Palestinian militants.

On Tuesday, the U.N. human rights office — which is separate from the panel of independent experts — cited possible war crimes by Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups in connection with a deadly raid by Israeli forces that freed four hostages over the weekend and killed hundreds of Palestinians.

  • Fuck You 2
Posted

Hahaha! @statsman got butthurt over a fucking Associated Press article and felt compelled to neg me. That's not the first time his delicate little sensibilities have been traumatized. Citing the UN definition of ethnic cleansing set him off last time. I guess the suggestion that Israel is capable of doing bad things, too, hurts his fee-fees.

There's nothing more cowardly you can do on Surly than to lob neg bombs from the sidelines while refusing to join in on a conversation.

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Haha 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...