Israel-Hamas war thread

[Brian Fantana 6685]

31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I don't think Hamas will take it. Their leadership is not at risk. That will always be the weakness in the IDF's plan. The fodder and civilians will pay while the big wigs are kicking it outside of Gaza.

I still maintain that Israel's leadership doesn't actually desire the end of Hamas. If they did, it should be abundantly clear what really needs to happen.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

21 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I will not. I've already had two people try to doxx me on this site over this topic after learning I had family in Israel and Gaza. And a third attempt that was successful but the intentions were noble so I was okay with it.

e: I appreciate that your interest is probably genuine, no offense.

I’m not looking for personal details. Just wanting to know their circumstances. Totally understand if you don’t want to share. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

48 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I still maintain that Israel's leadership doesn't actually desire the end of Hamas. If they did, it should be abundantly clear what really needs to happen.

The flip side to this is that accepting a deal now could very likely lead to the end of Hamas on the Palestinian side.  They are not subject to pressures from the electorate like a democracy but they do feel it in their own way and right now their results include the near total destruction of Gaza, tens of thousands of deaths, and no record of competent government.  They are getting the rally round the flag boost but that will collapse when there are no bombs falling but Gaza has to rebuild. This is why they keep holding out for more prisoner releases but that isn’t a good deal every time another civilian dies. 

The other hard reality is that either way they are completely dependent on foreign a support, even more so than Israel and they can’t agree to a ceasefire until Iran and Hezbolllah give the nod. 

[Rex Kramer 1335]

Just read about how Hamas is betting on civilian deaths.  I wonder if the WSJ is credible as a source. 

[DixonHur 11296]

29 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Just read about how Hamas is betting on civilian deaths.  I wonder if the WSJ is credible as a source. 

Ok.  Not sure what your point is.

Have there been posters on this thread talking about how much they admire Hamas?

The problem some of us have is the conflation of Hamas with Palestine and the idea that Israel is a blameless party to the situation.

Most Gaza civilians have nothing to do with Hamas, but the borders are closed, so they're trapped there with them none-the-less.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Ok.  Not sure what your point is.

Have there been posters on this thread talking about how much they admire Hamas?

The problem some of us have is the conflation of Hamas with Palestine and the idea that Israel is a blameless party to the situation.

Most Gaza civilians have nothing to do with Hamas, but the borders are closed, so they're trapped there with them none-the-less.

My point is posting an article that demonstrates from the mouth of Hamas exactly what we knew, and it underscores the grave difficulties for Israel. I am not sure anymore about “most” Gaza civilians having nothing to do with Hamas. 

I never said Israel is blameless. I believe Hama and Palestinians sympathetic to Hamas will do everything they can to spin any situation such that Israel is made to look like the bad guy even when they aren’t. They’ll lie and kill their own or be complicit in killing their own to blame Israel. And many of you fall for it repeatedly with blissful ignorance despite knowing the PR machine Hamas is. Again, Israel isn’t blameless. 

[Brisketexan 105095]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

I never said Israel is blameless. I believe Hama and Palestinians sympathetic to Hamas will do everything they can to spin any situation such that Israel is made to look like the bad guy even when they aren’t. They’ll lie and kill their own or be complicit in killing their own to blame Israel. And many of you fall for it repeatedly with blissful ignorance despite knowing the PR machine Hamas is. Again, Israel isn’t blameless. 

And in this short para, you actually find yourself agreeing with most of the people who have participated in this thread.  I don't think that many folks around here dispute the essentials of these truths:

1) Hamas is shit, and the Oct 7th attacks were evil.

2) Israel has a right/obligation to respond militarily to the Oct 7th attacks and the taking of hostages.

3) Hamas leadership is happy to goad Israel into killing Palestinian civilians because it makes the plight of Palestinians a) more visible than it was before and b) sympathetic.  Hamas, plainly, is GOOD with seeing Palestinian civilians suffer and die today, because Hamas believes that it will serve their ultimate goals.

4) Some military actions of Israel have appropriately intended/tried to limit civilian casualties.

5) Some military actions of Israel have intentionally harmed Palestinian civilians; Israel has foolishly taken Hamas's bait in that respect.

6) Some actions of Israelis (not IDF) have been taken to harm Palestinian civilians (destruction of aid deliveries, etc.), and Israeli forces/police have allowed those to happen.

7) Some significant leaders and elements of Israeli society support the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza of all Palestinians, either by death or removal.

8 ) Hamas leadership and significant elements of Palestinian (particularly Gazan) society want to drive all jews from the levant, either by death or removal.

9) Hamas has lied about/concealed some information regarding civilian deaths in Gaza.

10) Israel has lied about/concealed some information regarding civilian deaths in Gaza.

 

While the movement of idiots protesting on the side of Palestinians who chant "from the river to the sea" and "yay Hamas" bullshit AND the movement of hardline Israelis who are working to have Israel wipe Gaza clean of all life to make way for Israeli settlement are fucking evil, they are not the drivers.  The drivers are leadership -- Hamas and Israeli.  And between those two shitty groups of leaders (yes, Hamas is shittier) are trapped a) Palestinian civilians, and b) Israeli civilians, esp. including hostages.

And in the end, no matter how shitty Hamas is, and no matter how cavalier THEY are with the lives of Palestinian civilians, Israel should not be.  And Israel should not act purposefully to harm civilians, or protect Israelis who are doing so.  And there is significant evidence that those things have happened. No, they are not the ONLY thing that has happened, and no, not all examples that Hamas would like to point to are accurate.  But the point is, Israel is our ally, Israel is supposed to be an actual responsible nation state, and we should hold them accountable.

Hamas is a terrorist movement.  They can't be held accountable by policy points - they don't give a fuck.  They are held accountable only by force....a process that is ongoing as we speak.

When your enemy is a piece of shit who is happy to have the civilians purportedly under its care fall victim to the violence of war, that fucking sucks, and makes the opponent state's job harder....but the opponent state needs to step up to that challenge.  Nobody expects there to be zero civilian casualties.

28 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I am not sure anymore about “most” Gaza civilians having nothing to do with Hamas.

Oh, and as for this, read the accounts of the successful hostage rescue raid.  A bunch of Gazan civilians were complaining like hell about what Hamas has wrought - they blame Hamas for bringing this upon them all.

[DixonHur 11296]

56 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I never said Israel is blameless.

Give us an example where you blamed Israel for anything wrong... like ever?

57 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I am not sure anymore about “most” Gaza civilians having nothing to do with

Hamas' approval rating in Gaza is 32%.  

[Rex Kramer 1335]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Give us an example where you blamed Israel for anything wrong... like ever?

Hamas' approval rating in Gaza is 32%.  

I did not feel compelled to do so, Dixon, because this board is ultra critical of Israel. I’m not a guy who feels the need to pile on so that I show my non-biased nature.

[Foosters 17850]

lmao

[Nivek 16923]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Give us an example where you blamed Israel for anything wrong... like ever?

Hamas' approval rating in Gaza is 32%.  

That is a familiar number.   Sigh

[Hank_Hill 18803]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

lmao

Rex didn’t want to bully Israel by expressing any negativity in an online forum and you’re laughing??

[956 Worldwide 34705]

 

[Rex Kramer 1335]

1 hour ago, Hank_Hill said:

Rex didn’t want to bully Israel by expressing any negativity in an online forum and you’re laughing??

I don’t feel the need to caveat both sides type statements when it’s clear one side is far worse than the other.

[Hank_Hill 18803]

5 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I don’t feel the need to caveat both sides type statements when it’s clear one side is far worse than the other.

Passively ignoring one sides terrible actions because the others are potentially worse is a dangerous slope, but you do you.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

Just now, Hank_Hill said:

Passively ignoring one sides terrible actions because the others are potentially worse is a dangerous slope, but you do you.

I don’t. I read all of bolverk’s painstaking posts. I pay attention. I’ll comment when I want to. 

[Chopper 17230]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

3) Hamas leadership is happy to goad Israel into killing Palestinian civilians because it makes the plight of Palestinians a) more visible than it was before and b) sympathetic.  Hamas, plainly, is GOOD with seeing Palestinian civilians suffer and die today, because Hamas believes that it will serve their ultimate goals.

Just adding - Hamas is also happy to help Israel increase the body county of civilians because it increases the possibility that Iran and Lebanon get dragged into the conflict. Hamas' goal is to expand the war. Everything they do should be seen through that prism. That's also a reason Israel should be doing everything it can to avoid killing civilians. Israel needs to get Netanyahu out of office and into jail where he belongs, though I wish they'd find the Hamas leader in his underground hole already.

 

[Indomitable 80]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

I look forward to the protests and demonstrations urging Hamas to release the hostages, thereby expediting an end to the bloodshed. 

[Anastasis 23469]

4 hours ago, Indomitable said:

I look forward to the protests and demonstrations urging Hamas to release the hostages, thereby expediting an end to the bloodshed. 

Release of hostages doesn't appear to be the primary sticking point. Timetables and durability, otoh, are. 

From the NYT (plain text paste mofos, learn how to use it):

Hamas officials on Tuesday said they delivered to mediators in Qatar and Egypt a response to a cease-fire proposal endorsed by the United Nations Security Council, putting pressure on Israel to make the next move as Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken meets with negotiators in the Middle East.

The Hamas response proposed amendments to the deal endorsed on Monday in a 14-0 Security Council vote that may prove to be another stumbling block to a cease-fire agreement.

The counterproposal came as Mr. Blinken was in the region, meeting with top officials in Israel, Egypt and Jordan, in an effort to advance a peace agreement and urging Hamas to accept the U.N.-backed proposal. He was expected to fly to Qatar on Wednesday for meetings with officials there. Qatar and Egypt have acted as intermediaries between Israel and Hamas, which do not communicate directly with each other.

An official with knowledge of the talks, who asked for anonymity to discuss sensitive diplomacy, said the Palestinian response proposed amendments to the cease-fire plan, including firm timetables for not only a short-term truce but a permanent one, and for a full Israeli withdrawal.

This differs from the three-phase deal Israel proposed, that the Security Council endorsed and that President Biden has been pushing. That plan calls for an immediate cease-fire in phase one as negotiators hammer out a plan for a permanent end to fighting in the second phase. If talks on a permanent end to hostilities take longer than six weeks, the temporary truce would be extended, according to the original proposal.

Israel has said previously that it will not agree to a deal that doesn’t allow it to eradicate Hamas or would force what it considers a premature end to the war.

An Israeli official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive talks, said the Israeli negotiating team had received a copy of Hamas’s response to the proposed agreement through Qatari and Egyptian mediators, characterizing it as tantamount to a rejection of the deal presented by President Biden.

John F. Kirby, a White House spokesman for the National Security Council, said that the U.S. had received Hamas’s response but declined to discuss the details until it had been fully examined. “We are evaluating it right now,” Mr. Kirby said.

[Poester 109]

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

They want a shit ton more civilian deaths and Israel will give it to them. 

[PRONG HORN 3141]

 

 

FWIW

 

https://denvergazette.com/news/nation-world/patagonia-funneled-thousands-to-palestinian-terrorism-linked-group-documents-show/article_6b21821e-50dc-5905-8eb8-126092aac713.amp.html

 

Quote

Patagonia, the outdoor apparel brand with offices across the world, granted tens of thousands of dollars to a group connected to Palestinian terrorism. Now the company says it has launched an internal review into the funding.

 

[PRONG HORN 3141]

 

[Skipper 6133]

5 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

I mean the actual article was posted like 10 posts before this.   Screenshots from your weird algo is pretty much a zero value add in this specific thread.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Release of hostages doesn't appear to be the primary sticking point. Timetables and durability, otoh, are. 

From the NYT (plain text paste mofos, learn how to use it):

Hamas officials on Tuesday said they delivered to mediators in Qatar and Egypt a response to a cease-fire proposal endorsed by the United Nations Security Council, putting pressure on Israel to make the next move as Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken meets with negotiators in the Middle East.

The Hamas response proposed amendments to the deal endorsed on Monday in a 14-0 Security Council vote that may prove to be another stumbling block to a cease-fire agreement.

The counterproposal came as Mr. Blinken was in the region, meeting with top officials in Israel, Egypt and Jordan, in an effort to advance a peace agreement and urging Hamas to accept the U.N.-backed proposal. He was expected to fly to Qatar on Wednesday for meetings with officials there. Qatar and Egypt have acted as intermediaries between Israel and Hamas, which do not communicate directly with each other.

An official with knowledge of the talks, who asked for anonymity to discuss sensitive diplomacy, said the Palestinian response proposed amendments to the cease-fire plan, including firm timetables for not only a short-term truce but a permanent one, and for a full Israeli withdrawal.

This differs from the three-phase deal Israel proposed, that the Security Council endorsed and that President Biden has been pushing. That plan calls for an immediate cease-fire in phase one as negotiators hammer out a plan for a permanent end to fighting in the second phase. If talks on a permanent end to hostilities take longer than six weeks, the temporary truce would be extended, according to the original proposal.

Israel has said previously that it will not agree to a deal that doesn’t allow it to eradicate Hamas or would force what it considers a premature end to the war.

An Israeli official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive talks, said the Israeli negotiating team had received a copy of Hamas’s response to the proposed agreement through Qatari and Egyptian mediators, characterizing it as tantamount to a rejection of the deal presented by President Biden.

John F. Kirby, a White House spokesman for the National Security Council, said that the U.S. had received Hamas’s response but declined to discuss the details until it had been fully examined. “We are evaluating it right now,” Mr. Kirby said.

Your blind hatred for Israel causes you to do things like make this post trying to understand Hamas and being duped by their response. 

[bolverk 29660]

Report by UN-backed experts cites crimes by Israeli forces, Palestinian militants starting 0ct. 7

GENEVA (AP) — U.N.-backed human rights experts say in a report issued Wednesday that Israeli forces and Palestinian militants engaged in sexual and gender-based violence during the first months of the Israel-Hamas war.

The independent experts, in a detailed chronicling of events that have mostly been reported in the media, said Israeli forces and Palestinian militants committed war crimes, while Israel was also said to have committed crimes against humanity.

Israel, which has refused to cooperate with the body and accused it of bias, rejected the allegations.

The report, which covered the time between the Oct. 7 rampage and the end of last year, laid out a wide array of alleged rights violations and crimes by both sides during the conflict. It said Israeli forces had committed acts including forced starvation, murder or willful killing, collective punishment and intentional attacks on civilians, and that the military wings of Hamas and other armed Palestinian groups had performed deliberate killings and mistreatment of civilians and hostage-takings.

The findings come as the conflict has entered its ninth month with few signs of letting up.

The report said that frequency, prevalence and severity of sexual and gender-based crimes against Palestinians by Israeli security forces during the period late last year amounted to signs that some forms of such violence “are part of ISF operating procedures.”

Despite noting denials by Hamas’ military wing of sexual violence against Israeli women, the report said the experts had documented “cases indicative of sexual violence” against women and men near the site of a large music festival, a military outpost and several kibbutzim that the raiders attacked.

The expert panel was commissioned in 2021 by the U.N.-backed Human Rights Council to look into rights violations and abuses in Israel and the Palestinian areas it controls. Led by Navi Pillay, a former U.N. human rights chief, they are independent experts and do not speak for the world body itself. Israel has refused to cooperate with the team of experts.

Israel’s diplomatic mission in Geneva responded that the report “outrageously and repugnantly attempts to draw a false equivalence between IDF soldiers and Hamas terrorists with regards to acts of sexual violence” and reiterating longstanding claims of anti-Israel discrimination by the experts.

The report and Israel’s response marked the latest sign of the growing gulf between the U.N. and its affiliate institutions and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government over its response to the deadly Oct. 7 rampage and hostage-takings in Israel by armed Palestinian militants.

On Tuesday, the U.N. human rights office — which is separate from the panel of independent experts — cited possible war crimes by Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups in connection with a deadly raid by Israeli forces that freed four hostages over the weekend and killed hundreds of Palestinians.

[bolverk 29660]

Hahaha! @statsman got butthurt over a fucking Associated Press article and felt compelled to neg me. That's not the first time his delicate little sensibilities have been traumatized. Citing the UN definition of ethnic cleansing set him off last time. I guess the suggestion that Israel is capable of doing bad things, too, hurts his fee-fees.

There's nothing more cowardly you can do on Surly than to lob neg bombs from the sidelines while refusing to join in on a conversation.

[InkaUtexas 25907]

So this report, laying blame on both groups, is negged? And reporting the news on a news thread. HOW DARE YOU SIR!

[Chopper 17230]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

"On Tuesday, the U.N. human rights office — which is separate from the panel of independent experts — cited possible war crimes by Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups in connection with a deadly raid by Israeli forces that freed four hostages over the weekend and killed hundreds of Palestinians."

The truck the fucking cunt from the UN cried was supposedly an aid truck was a dishwashing soap company's truck. Fuck the UN for giving Hamas a bunch of bullshit propaganda. You can't trust a word they (either one of 'em) say.

[bolverk 29660]

2 minutes ago, Chopper said:

The truck the fucking cunt from the UN cried was supposedly an aid truck was a dishwashing soap company's truck. Fuck the UN for giving Hamas a bunch of bullshit propaganda. You can't trust a word they (either one of 'em) say.

Are you just going to gloss over the numerous stories of civilian Palestinian hostages detainees being mistreated in Israeli prisons?

The report said that frequency, prevalence and severity of sexual and gender-based crimes against Palestinians by Israeli security forces during the period late last year amounted to signs that some forms of such violence “are part of ISF operating procedures.”

[bolverk 29660]

@Chopper I just did a quick Google search to find a story about an Israeli field hospital operating on Palestinians without anesthesia but came up with this article from Reuters posted just five hours ago.

Palestinian detainees say they faced abuse in Israeli jails
GAZA, June 12 (Reuters) - Palestinians held in Israeli detention since the start of the war in Gaza said they faced systematic ill-treatment by prison authorities whom they accused of deliberately withholding vital medical treatment.

Human rights groups and international organizations have alleged widespread abuse of inmates detained by Israel in raids in the occupied West Bank or during its military advance through in Gaza.

They described abusive and humiliating treatment including holding blindfolded and handcuffed detainees in cramped cages as well as beatings, intimidation and harassment.

"We have left but we call on you to get the rest out," said former detainee Ataa Shbat, at the Kamal Adwan hospital in Gaza, where he was taken following his release. He said many detainees believed their families assumed they were dead.

"People are dying. Torture which you cannot imagine unless you taste it (experience it). Suffering which you cannot imagine unless you experience it," he said.

The Israeli military has said it is investigating allegations of mistreatment of detainees at facilities in Israel but has declined to comment on specific cases. A spokesperson said on Wednesday that details of the investigation would be shared when they were ready.

At least 18 Palestinians have died in Israeli custody since the start of the war, the Palestinian Prisoners Association said on Wednesday, six of whom were from Gaza, including orthopaedics surgeon Adnan al-Bursh.

More than 9,170 Palestinians from the West Bank have been arrested by Israel since Oct. 7, it said, with thousands more "forcibly disappeared" from Gaza. It said their exact number was unknown as Israel has refused to disclose how many Palestinians from Gaza it was holding.

Last week, Israeli state attorneys said authorities had begun transferring prisoners from Sde Teiman, a former military base in the Negev desert, after groups including Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) demanded the closure of the site.

Widespread reports of mistreatment of detainees in Israeli prisons have added to international pressure on Israel for its conduct of the Gaza war, now in its ninth month. Last month, the U.S. State Department said it was looking into allegations of Israeli abuse of Palestinian detainees.

The main United Nations relief agency for Palestinians UNRWA said in a report from April that prisoners reported ill-treatment throughout their detention. It said this included beatings, being deprived of food, denied access to water or toilets and having their hands and feet bound with plastic ties.

"The prisoners are dying every day. There is no food or drinks or medicine. There is no food or clothing. The disease is eating their bodies and no one is looking at them," said former detainee Aalam Hijazi.

"The water is not suitable for drinking," he told Reuters. "I have worn these clothes for eight months."

 

[bolverk 29660]

@Chopper Israel refuses to allow the Red Cross to visit this hospital.

Israel maintains a shadowy hospital for Gaza detainees. Critics allege mistreatment
Patients lying shackled and blindfolded on more than a dozen beds inside a white tent in the desert

JERUSALEM -- Patients lying shackled and blindfolded on more than a dozen beds inside a white tent in the desert. Surgeries performed without adequate painkillers. Doctors who remain anonymous.

These are some of the conditions at Israel's only hospital dedicated to treating Palestinians detained by the military in the Gaza Strip, three people who have worked there told The Associated Press, confirming similar accounts from human rights groups.

While Israel says it detains only suspected militants, many patients have turned out to be non-combatants taken during raids, held without trial and eventually returned to war-torn Gaza.

Eight months into the Israel-Hamas war, accusations of inhumane treatment at the Sde Teiman military field hospital are on the rise, and the Israeli government is under growing pressure to shut it down. Rights groups and other critics say what began as a temporary place to hold and treat militants after Oct. 7 has morphed into a harsh detention center with too little accountability.

The military denies the allegations of inhumane treatment and says all detainees needing medical attention receive it.

The hospital is near the city of Beersheba in southern Israel. It opened beside a detention center on a military base after the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel because some civilian hospitals refused to treat wounded militants. Of the three workers interviewed by AP, two spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared government retribution and public rebuke.

“We are condemned by the left because we are not fulfilling ethical issues,” said Dr. Yoel Donchin, an anesthesiologist who has worked at Sde Teiman hospital since its earliest days and still works there. “We are condemned from the right because they think we are criminals for treating terrorists.”

The military this week said it formed a committee to investigate detention center conditions, but it was unclear if that included the hospital. Next week Israel's highest court is set to hear arguments from human rights groups seeking to shut it down.

Israel has not granted journalists or the International Committee of the Red Cross access to the Sde Teiman facilities.

Israel has detained some 4,000 Palestinians since Oct. 7, according to official figures, though roughly 1,500 were released after the military determined they were not affiliated with Hamas. Israeli human rights groups say the majority of detainees have at some point passed through Sde Teiman, the country's largest detention center.

Doctors there say they have treated many who appeared to be non-combatants.

“Now we have patients that are not so young, sick patients with diabetes and high blood pressure,” said Donchin, the anesthesiologist.

A soldier who worked at the hospital recounted an elderly man who underwent surgery on his leg without pain medication. “He was screaming and shaking,” said the soldier.

Between medical treatments, the soldier said patients were housed in the detention center, where they were exposed to squalid conditions and their wounds often developed infections. There was a separate area where older people slept on thin mattresses under floodlights, and a putrid smell hung in the air, he said.

The military said in a statement that all detainees are “reasonably suspected of being involved in terrorist activity.” It said they receive check-ups upon arrival and are transferred to the hospital when they require more serious treatment.

A medical worker who saw patients at the facility in the winter recounted teaching hospital workers how to wash wounds.

Donchin, who largely defended the facility against allegations of mistreatment but was critical of some of its practices, said most patients are diapered and not allowed to use the bathroom, shackled around their arms and legs and blindfolded.

“Their eyes are covered all the time. I don't know what the security reason for this is,” he said.

The military disputed the accounts provided to AP, saying patients were handcuffed “in cases where the security risk requires it” and removed when they caused injury. Patients are rarely diapered, it said.

Dr. Michael Barilan, a professor at the Tel Aviv University Medical School who said he has spoken with over 15 hospital staff, disputed accounts of medical negligence. He said doctors are doing their best under difficult circumstances, and that the blindfolds originated out of a “fear (patients) would retaliate against those taking care of them."

Days after Oct. 7, roughly 100 Israelis clashed with police outside one of the country's main hospitals in response to false rumors it was treating a militant.

In the aftermath, some hospitals refused to treat detainees, fearful that doing so could endanger staff and disrupt operations. They were already overwhelmed by people wounded during the Hamas attack and expecting casualties to rise from an impending ground invasion.

As Israel pulled in scores of wounded Palestinians to Sde Teiman, it became clear the facility's infirmary was not large enough, according to Barilan. An adjacent field hospital was built from scratch.

Israel's Health Ministry laid out plans for the hospital in a December memo obtained by AP.

It said patients would be treated while handcuffed and blindfolded. Doctors, drafted into service by the military, would be kept anonymous to protect their "safety, lives and well-being." The ministry referred all questions to the military when reached for comment.

Still, an April report from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, drawing on interviews with hospital workers, said doctors at the facility faced “ethical, professional and even emotional distress.” Barilan said turnover has been high.

Patients with more complicated injuries have been transferred from the field hospital to civilian hospitals, but it has been done covertly to avoid arousing the public's attention, Barilan said. And the process is fraught: The medical worker who spoke with AP said one detainee with a gunshot wound was discharged prematurely from a civilian hospital to Sde Teiman within hours of being treated, endangering his life.

The field hospital is overseen by military and health officials, but Donchin said parts of its operations are managed by KLP, a private logistics and security company whose website says it specializes in “high-risk environments.” The company did not respond to a request for comment.

Because it’s not under the same command as the military’s medical corps, the field hospital is not subject to Israel’s Patients Rights Act, according to Physicians for Human Rights-Israel.

A group from the Israeli Medical Association visited the hospital earlier this year but kept its findings private. The association did not respond to requests for comment.

The military told AP that 36 people from Gaza have died in Israel’s detention centers since Oct. 7, some of them because of illnesses or wounds sustained in the war. Physicians for Human Rights-Israel has alleged that some died from medical negligence.

Khaled Hammouda, a surgeon from Gaza, spent 22 days at one of Israel's detention centers. He does not know where he was taken because he was blindfolded while he was transported. But he said he recognized a picture of Sde Teiman and said he saw at least one detainee, a prominent Gaza doctor who is believed to have been there.

Hammouda recalled asking a soldier if a pale 18-year-old who appeared to be suffering from internal bleeding could be taken to a doctor. The soldier took the teenager away, gave him intravenous fluids for a few hours, and then returned him.

“I told them, ‘He could die,'" Hammouda said. “‘They told me this is the limit.'”

[Chopper 17230]

27 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Are you just going to gloss over the numerous stories of civilian Palestinian hostages detainees being mistreated in Israeli prisons?

The report said that frequency, prevalence and severity of sexual and gender-based crimes against Palestinians by Israeli security forces during the period late last year amounted to signs that some forms of such violence “are part of ISF operating procedures.”

Naah. I'm not about glossing over anything. I was reacting to the generality of the accusation and lack of specificity in the article, and the fact that it continued to purvey false and inflammatory information.

Edited June 12 by Chopper

[bolverk 29660]

14 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Naah. I'm not about glossing over anything. I was reacting to the generality of the accusation and lack of specificity in the article, and the fact that it continued to purvey false and inflammatory information.

Understood, but your ire was directed at a separate report that is just a footnote to the main article.

For specificity, you can access the primary source here, which includes a link to the full report that has plenty of specificity on the war crimes committed by both Hamas and Israel. There are details of sexual and gender-based violence on the civilian population in the main report.

[Chopper 17230]

7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Understood, but your ire was directed at a separate report that is just a footnote to the main article.

Yes, but it has no place in there, and it just accentuates the fact that the article is a he said/she said without sifting out even known and proven lies.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

44 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Yes, but it has no place in there, and it just accentuates the fact that the article is a he said/she said without sifting out even known and proven lies.

I take nothing the UN says seriously. They have a major, major credibility problem. 

[InkaUtexas 25907]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I take nothing the UN says seriously. They have a major, major credibility problem. 

So who do we trust then?

I agree with the UN for the most part, but having worked with a few of their agencies, they are not all the same. I do trust their health/food/refugee personnel. I do not usually trust the speakers from NY.

 

[bolverk 29660]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So who do we trust then?

I agree with the UN for the most part, but having worked with a few of their agencies, they are not all the same. I do trust their health/food/refugee personnel. I do not usually trust the speakers from NY.

A reminder that prosecutors for the International Criminal Court (independent of the UN) found sufficient evidence of war crimes committed by Hamas and Israel to recommend arrest warrants recently.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So who do we trust then?

I agree with the UN for the most part, but having worked with a few of their agencies, they are not all the same. I do trust their health/food/refugee personnel. I do not usually trust the speakers from NY.

 

A LOT of governmental organizations, regardless of nation / international status. The UN is far more credible than say the IEA. 

[InkaUtexas 25907]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

A LOT of governmental organizations, regardless of nation / international status. The UN is far more credible than say the IEA. 

Umm... but most nations use their people in the UN to MAKE announcements.

For me the key is read as many sources as possible, talk to people who know the place/situation, and then think. No gut reactions when it comes to human lives on any side.

And a serious question. What is the UN's agenda on this subject? Honestly they should want a peacekeeping mission. That is where they make the big bucks.

[elfenix 34230]

War cabinet disbanded 

 

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-06-17-24/index.html

[YGIFS 19450]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:35 PM, PRONG HORN said:

 

https://denvergazette.com/news/nation-world/patagonia-funneled-thousands-to-palestinian-terrorism-linked-group-documents-show/article_6b21821e-50dc-5905-8eb8-126092aac713.amp.html

It's good to know that Hamas likes to wear Patagonia jackets and vests when to battle in 90 degrees, just like the douchebags in Texas.  

[PRONG HORN 3141]

 

 

 

UN can't find evidence of famine

 

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-06-17/ty-article/.premium/un-panel-says-data-lacking-to-determine-whether-famine-exists-in-northern-gaza/00000190-269a-d2de-af9e-67fa68040000

[bolverk 29660]

12 minutes ago, PRONG HORN said:

UN can't find evidence of famine

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-06-17/ty-article/.premium/un-panel-says-data-lacking-to-determine-whether-famine-exists-in-northern-gaza/00000190-269a-d2de-af9e-67fa68040000

Paywalled. Post the article so that other posters can read it to understand the full context of the UN's statement. 

You surely wouldn't want to mislead anyone. 

Edited June 18 by bolverk

[PRONG HORN 3141]

Just now, bolverk said:

Paywalled. Post the article so that other posters can read the article and understand the full context of the UN's statement. 

 

Isn't there a way to get around the paywall by altering the link?  I don't know how to do that.  

[bolverk 29660]

1 minute ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

Isn't there a way to get around the paywall by altering the link?  I don't know how to do that.  

You certainly know how to copy and paste.

[InkaUtexas 25907]

Just now, bolverk said:

You certainly know how to copy and paste.

can he? I mean he has access....... Hmmmm. Do tell, is there an aggy among us?

[bolverk 29660]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

can he? I mean he has access....... Hmmmm. Do tell, is there an aggy among us?

He doesn't seem to have a problem copy/pasting all his godawful tweets, exposing us to the bottom-of-the-barrel dregs found in his feed. But, of course, he's innocent of the poor-quality information stream he shares. You see, it's simply the algorithm, which he totally has no control over.

[PRONG HORN 3141]

9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You certainly know how to copy and paste.

 

 

Here's a related PDF link.  IDK what the IPC is.  It's dated May but I think was released recently.  

 

https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/documents/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_FEWS_NET_Gaza_4June2024.pdf

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

He doesn't seem to have a problem copy/pasting all his godawful tweets, exposing us to the bottom-of-the-barrel dregs found in his feed. But, of course, he's innocent of the poor-quality information stream he shares. You see, it's simply the algorithm, which he totally has no control over.

 

 

Those dregs are usually pro Palestine protestors btw.  

 

 

Edited June 18 by PRONG HORN

[bolverk 29660]

Since PRONG HORN continues to refuse to be transparent and post the article, I'll go ahead and do it so others can determine if his commentary, "UN can't find evidence of famine," matches the article and judge whether he can be trusted as a fully honest broker of information.

https://archive.is/eWRtw

UN Panel Says Data Lacking to Determine Whether Famine Exists in Northern Gaza
The UN expert panel contradicts findings of human rights organizations but warns against using the report to deny 'that extreme human suffering is without a doubt currently ongoing in the Gaza Strip'

The United Nations Famine Review Committee published a report on Monday on the situation in the northern Gaza Strip, in which it said there is not enough reliable information to declare a famine.

The committee is part of the UN's Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (aka IPC), which is a scale that indicates food security in crisis zones, as measured on a scale from phase 1 (generally food-secure) to phase 5 (famine/humanitarian catastrophe).

The report stated that the committee is "unable to endorse the IPC Phase 5 (Famine) classification" for northern Gaza, a classification that the U.S. Famine Early Warning Systems Network has endorsed. The UN panel's report said it did not find the U.S. "analysis plausible given the uncertainty and lack of convergence of the supporting evidence employed in the analysis. Therefore, the [committee] is unable to make a determination as to whether or not famine thresholds have been passed."

The UN report emphasized that "all stakeholders who use the IPC for high-level decision-making must understand that whether a famine classification is confirmed does not in any manner change the fact that extreme human suffering is without a doubt currently ongoing in the Gaza Strip and does not in any manner change the immediate humanitarian imperative to address this civilian suffering by enabling complete, safe, unhindered, and sustained humanitarian access into and throughout the Gaza Strip, including through ceasing hostilities."

The conclusion will likely help Israel rebut accusations of starving Gaza on the international legal front and to respond to criticism against it by other countries on the matter. Still, an Israeli response to the expert panel's conclusions that it should increase the amount of humanitarian aid entering Gaza, including through a cease-fire, is liable to cause a crisis in the government.

On Sunday, senior cabinet ministers criticized the Israeli decision to undertake a daily "tactical pause" to allow more deliveries of humanitarian aid. The decision led to exchanges of accusations between the prime minister and Israeli military brass.

[bolverk 29660]

27 minutes ago, PRONG HORN said:

Those dregs are usually pro Palestine protestors btw.  

Sure thing, buddy. Twitter accounts labeling all protestors as anti-semitic, anti-Israel, or pro-Hamas are totally on their side.