Israel-Hamas war thread

[HellesBier 185]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You're not wrong.  Just understand that if you condemn Hamas for inhumane, criminal tactics, and killing civilians....Israel's current approach, both in actual actions taken and in broad public support for same, is a shitload of the good old meme:

And note of course that Israel's shittiness to Palestinians didn't start on Oct. 7th.  Just like Palestinian terrorism didn't start ON Oct. 7th.  Tracing which is the "chicken vs. egg" here is an impossible task.

Oh, I don't believe that there will be justice of peace.  Each belligerent is currently controlled by factions that are completely opposed to any just or peaceful outcome.  Trust me, I agree with you on that.  Each side is bent on a war of extermination, with no meaningful modification of or deviation from that goal.  Congratulations.

Yep.

SO......knowing not just that this is going to be the outcome, but "suffering and death" is the DESIRED outcome, from EACH SIDE.....don't expect me to sympathize much with anyone except the civilians caught in the crossfire.  A vast majority of whom, at this point in time, are Palestinian.  That's just the numbers.  But that doesn't mean no sympathy for Israeli civilians targeted by Hezbollah rockets and such -- the civilians are getting the shit-end of this.  The civilians in both camps should demand better of their governments....but they really aren't, at least not meaningfully.

So, we're stuck with two populations who are happy to engage in a war of extermination against the other.  Hamas and its shittiness are known, and have been for a long-ass time.  Israel has pretended to be a "civilized" nation-state for a long-ass time, but it has now dispensed with that charade, engaging in its own brand of shittiness.  Hooray.  What a GREAT outcome for Israel.

It looks like we agree on many things. I will take a leap on something we dont agree on. As I mentioned above, we once dropped atomic bombs on an enemy and  at the time there were many discussion around a simple question....do we do it or do we not. The doctor behind it all understood that creating great destruction and pain in the short term would save long term pain and destruction. 

We can watch this happen for another 3000 years or we can rip the bandaid off. As far as who I want to be ripping the bandaid off in victory, well, not the people that act like its still 1300 who are wreaking havoc in Europe and who think raping women as a form of punishment and jailing them for making eye contact is acceptable. The Israel - Palestine outcome still has much to be debated but I am very glad you and the other liberals in this thread had no influence on past events, such as Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

5 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

It looks like we agree on many things. I will take a leap on something we dont agree on. As I mentioned above, we once dropped atomic bombs on an enemy and  at the time there were many discussion around a simple question....do we do it or do we not. The doctor behind it all understood that creating great destruction and pain in the short term would save long term pain and destruction. 

We can watch this happen for another 3000 years or we can rip the bandaid off. As far as who I want to be ripping the bandaid off in victory, well, not the people that act like its still 1300 who are wreaking havoc in Europe and who think raping women as a form of punishment and jailing them for making eye contact is acceptable. The Israel - Palestine outcome still has much to be debated but I am very glad you and the other liberals in this thread had no influence on past events, such as Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 

I continue to be fascinated by the lazy characterization of anyone who is anything less than "I support what Israel is doing 100%, without any reservation" as just another "liberal."

I am, and always have been, pretty moderate.  Even conservative on many points (I'm actually pretty hawkish for someone who votes Democrat these days).  Nobody here has said that there aren't hard decisions to be made, and unpleasant actions to be taken, in war.  Where you are wrong is where you take that truth, and extrapolate it to "and therefore, anything and everything the side I support does is right, and cannot be questioned."

Even worse, you are blind to what this does to Israel's position in the long run.  If you had asked me on October 8th....or even a month after, "who has the better side in this situation right now?", I'd have answered "Israel," and rather quickly (and yes, that is with full knowledge of Israel's unclean hands with respect to Palestinians....as well as my knowledge of the previous unclean hands of Hamas and the PLO and Hezbollah).  Today, I do not give that answer.  I am the sort of person who Israel wants and needs supporting them.  I am not at a campus rally saying "From the River to the Sea!"  I am not wearing a keffiyeh.  I think that the over-the-top pro-Palestinian types that I know are ridiculous, childish, and blind to reality.  But I am coming quite close to losing any and all sympathy or empathy for Israel and its cause.  If Israel wants to say "fuck everyone, we're going to be a villain," cool.  They can do that without my support.  

I will likely never again think well of Israel as a state.  I am not alone.  And again, I am no Hamas-sympathizer.  I'm the type of person who Israel-supporters could once say were pretty much in their corner.  I'm not any more.  It doesn't cost Israel to lose the support of Brisket.  But in the long run, it will cost them to lose the support of millions of people like me in the West, which is happening in real time.  One of Israel's greatest assets has been popular support in the West.  Burning that down for now and the future seems counter-productive but hey, Bibi has the war of annihilation (which also functions to keep him in power and out of prison - what a coincidental bonus, right?  Couldn't POSSIBLY be a big part of his motivation, could it?), just like he wanted, and isn't that what's really important?  Short-term win for Bibi, long-term cost be damned.

[Brisketexan 104189]

16 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

We can watch this happen for another 3000 years or we can rip the bandaid off.

Oh, and please tell us what that "ripping the bandaid off" looks like.  In detail.  Tell us what Gaza, the West Bank, and the Palestinian civilian populations look like when your plan is completed.  Stop tapdancing around it.  Give us the "and in conclusion, this is what victory looks like" picture.

[HellesBier 185]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I continue to be fascinated by the lazy characterization of anyone who is anything less than "I support what Israel is doing 100%, without any reservation" as just another "liberal."

I am, and always have been, pretty moderate.  Even conservative on many points (I'm actually pretty hawkish for someone who votes Democrat these days).  Nobody here has said that there aren't hard decisions to be made, and unpleasant actions to be taken, in war.  Where you are wrong is where you take that truth, and extrapolate it to "and therefore, anything and everything the side I support does is right, and cannot be questioned."

Even worse, you are blind to what this does to Israel's position in the long run.  If you had asked me on October 8th....or even a month after, "who has the better side in this situation right now?", I'd have answered "Israel," and rather quickly (and yes, that is with full knowledge of Israel's unclean hands with respect to Palestinians....as well as my knowledge of the previous unclean hands of Hamas and the PLO and Hezbollah).  Today, I do not give that answer.  I am the sort of person who Israel wants and needs supporting them.  I am not at a campus rally saying "From the River to the Sea!"  I am not wearing a keffiyeh.  I think that the over-the-top pro-Palestinian types that I know are ridiculous, childish, and blind to reality.  But I am coming quite close to losing any and all sympathy or empathy for Israel and its cause.  If Israel wants to say "fuck everyone, we're going to be a villain," cool.  They can do that without my support.  

I will likely never again think well of Israel as a state.  I am not alone.  And again, I am no Hamas-sympathizer.  I'm the type of person who Israel-supporters could once say were pretty much in their corner.  I'm not any more.  It doesn't cost Israel to lose the support of Brisket.  But in the long run, it will cost them to lose the support of millions of people like me in the West, which is happening in real time.  One of Israel's greatest assets has been popular support in the West.  Burning that down for now and the future seems counter-productive but hey, Bibi has the war of annihilation (which also functions to keep him in power and out of prison - what a coincidental bonus, right?  Couldn't POSSIBLY be a big part of his motivation, could it?), just like he wanted, and isn't that what's really important?  Short-term win for Bibi, long-term cost be damned.

I stopped reading after the second paragraph. Can you point to where I have said what I support can do no wrong? Nowhere did I say Israel can do no wrong and I support some other theories that call into question the power grip Israel has on US politics. 

I said, and I will repeat it again for you, that I support the side that doesnt rape women openly as punishment and call for the jailing of them for being heard speaking aloud. There is a lesser of two evils here. 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, and please tell us what that "ripping the bandaid off" looks like.  In detail.  Tell us what Gaza, the West Bank, and the Palestinian civilian populations look like when your plan is completed.  Stop tapdancing around it.  Give us the "and in conclusion, this is what victory looks like" picture.

Would you like the long or short version?

[Brisketexan 104189]

2 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

I stopped reading after the second paragraph. Can you point to where I have said what I support can do no wrong? Nowhere did I say Israel can do no wrong and I support some other theories that call into question the power grip Israel has on US politics. 

I said, and I will repeat it again for you, that I support the side that doesnt rape women openly as punishment and call for the jailing of them for being heard speaking aloud. There is a lesser of two evils here. 

Ummmmm.......

Quote

Shortly after Israeli authorities announced on July 29 they had detained reservists for allegedly abusing prisoners, hundreds of people demonstrated in front of Sde Teiman and Beit Lid, where the soldiers are believed to be held, to protest their detention.

Armed and masked Israeli reservists hold signs that read “The hero soldiers should be released” during a protest at Beit Lid military base on July 29.Matan Golan / SOPA Images / LightRocket via Getty Images

While the arrest of the reservists had brought this case to wider attention, B’Tselem argued that the abuse of Palestinian detainees is systemic in Israeli prisons.

In a heated meeting of lawmakers in July, a parliamentarian asked if it was legitimate “to insert a stick into a person’s rectum?” 

“Yes!” lawmaker Hanoch Milwidsky, of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing Likud party, shouted in reply. If the detainee is a Hamas militant, he said, “Everything is legitimate to do! Everything!”

The "abuse" in question was the rape of a prisoner.  By Israeli soldiers.  And the reaction of the Israeli public was....to storm the base where the arrested soldiers (arrested for rape, mind you) were being held, to demand their immediate release.

You want to think there's a "lesser" of two evils here.  And there surely is a gap.  But Israel and its supporters are doing all they can to shrink the everloving fuck out of that gap every day.  Again, you have lawmakers from the ruling party openly stating that everything is legitimate to do to the other side, including rape.  Not my words.  His words.  Exact words.

[HellesBier 185]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Ummmmm.......

The "abuse" in question was the rape of a prisoner.  By Israeli soldiers.  And the reaction of the Israeli public was....to storm the base where the arrested soldiers (arrested for rape, mind you) were being held, to demand their immediate release.

You want to think there's a "lesser" of two evils here.  And there surely is a gap.  But Israel and its supporters are doing all they can to shrink the everloving fuck out of that gap every day.  Again, you have lawmakers from the ruling party openly stating that everything is legitimate to do to the other side, including rape.  Not my words.  His words.  Exact words.

Hmm....a couple soldiers going rogue (happens here in America as I am sure you are aware) or a world wide religion that supports suppression of women's rights.....nice comparison my man. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

Just now, HellesBier said:

Hmm....a couple soldiers going rogue (happens here in America as I am sure you are aware) or a world wide religion that supports suppression of women's rights.....nice comparison my man. 

Way to bury the lede.

Soldiers committed a war crime.  Yep, that happens.

The Israeli public doesn't just support them, but storms a military base demanding that they be freed.

The ruling party doesn't just support them or claim they are innocent, but says that rape is a legitimate weapon.

The problem here isn't the rape.  It's the underlined text.  Which you ignored.  Which is 100% unsurprising.  Because the State of Israel can do not wrong: if the State and the People support it, then it is right.

10 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

Would you like the long or short version?

Both.  Tell me what the levant looks like when your plan is over.

And tell us how you get there, including the body count.  

[HellesBier 185]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Way to bury the lede.

Soldiers committed a war crime.  Yep, that happens.

The Israeli public doesn't just support them, but storms a military base demanding that they be freed.

The ruling party doesn't just support them or claim they are innocent, but says that rape is a legitimate weapon.

The problem here isn't the rape.  It's the underlined text.  Which you ignored.  Which is 100% unsurprising.  Because the State of Israel can do not wrong: if the State and the People support it, then it is right.

Both.  Tell me what the levant looks like when your plan is over.

And tell us how you get there, including the body count.  

But I already have told you the state can do wrong. So are you just pushing your narrative to paint me in a box?

I get not posting this as it doesnt support your position. So let me help you, rationale sir.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/03/israel-protesters-netanyahu-gaza-war

 

It is hard for you to pivot and attack when you realize I am not a blind supporter so I will understand when you keep pushing the same argument.

Edited September 3 by HellesBier

[Brisketexan 104189]

Just now, HellesBier said:

But I already have told you the state can do wrong. So are you just pushing your narrative to paint me in a box?

I get not posting this is doesnt support your text. So let me help you!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/03/israel-protesters-netanyahu-gaza-war

Oh, I followed those this weekend.

Care to make a wager on what ACTUAL public support for the regime and its actions are and...more importantly...whether Bibi and his war plan will be altered in the slightest?  He is engaged in the war of total annihilation that you want.  You are getting EXACTLY what you wanted.  You should be cheering him on, and cursing the names of those protesters.  Which, I presume is exactly what you are doing.

Again, tell us what your "victory" looks like.  And of course, you continue to tapdance past the underlined text.  Always.  And forever.  The next time an Israel apologist acknowledges the crimes of the Israeli state and the massive support the Israelis and Israeli leadership have for those crimes, will be the first.

[HellesBier 185]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, I followed those this weekend.

Care to make a wager on what ACTUAL public support for the regime and its actions are and...more importantly...whether Bibi and his war plan will be altered in the slightest?  He is engaged in the war of total annihilation that you want.  You are getting EXACTLY what you wanted.  You should be cheering him on, and cursing the names of those protesters.  Which, I presume is exactly what you are doing.

Again, tell us what your "victory" looks like.  And of course, you continue to tapdance past the underlined text.  Always.  And forever.  The next time an Israel apologist acknowledges the crimes of the Israeli state and the massive support the Israelis and Israeli leadership have for those crimes, will be the first.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-66-of-israelis-want-netanyahu-to-leave-politics-85-support-oct-7-probe/

Again, it just looks like you are a kite flying in the wind. Who is the one spreading the narrative here?

Why is it so inconceivable that maybe Israelis aren't what you are painting them as? What do you have against Israelis? Maybe you dislike Jews and this is just a narrative to jump on?

Edited September 3 by HellesBier

[Rex Kramer 1260]

On 9/1/2024 at 3:52 PM, Rex Kramer said:

Hamas is more evil. By far. Like the comparison is silly and you should feel bad for posting idiotic shit, and should shut the fuck up. 

Foosters negged this post. On Surly, you cannot make the statement “Hamas is more evil than Israel” without criticism. Fucking clown show, Foosters. 

[InkaUtexas 25169]

11 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-66-of-israelis-want-netanyahu-to-leave-politics-85-support-oct-7-probe/

Again, it just looks like you are a kite flying in the wind. Who is the one spreading the narrative here?

Why is it so inconceivable that maybe Israelis aren't what you are painting them as? What do you have against Israelis? Maybe you dislike Jews and this is just a narrative to jump on?

Not one post is anti-isreali. They are anti-Bibi's approach to the way they are attacking Gaza and not just Hamas.

[Foosters 17684]

Just now, Rex Kramer said:

Foosters negged this post. On Surly, you cannot make the statement “Hamas is more evil than Israel” without criticism. Fucking clown show, Foosters. 

The neg was for you acting like a whiny bitch and going after other posters who disagree with you. You are fucking unhinged on this thread, my man. Do you act like this in real life? 

 

[HellesBier 185]

3 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Foosters negged this post. On Surly, you cannot make the statement “Hamas is more evil than Israel” without criticism. Fucking clown show, Foosters. 

They are bleeding heart, no questions asked, full on liberals who get told how to act, what to think, and which cause to support.

The fact that the right has become the party of resistance and questioning tells you a lot. Don't pay them one second of attention other than to laugh. Let them rot under bridges as California gives them a pizza and free showers for their vote.

Edited September 3 by HellesBier

[Foosters 17684]

1 minute ago, HellesBier said:

They are bleeding heart, no questions asked, full on liberals who get told how to act, what to think, and which cause to support.

The fact that the right has become the party of resistance and questioning tells you a lot. Don't pay them one second of attention other than to laugh. Let them rot under bridges as California gives them a pizza and free showers for their vote.

Or, i found it neg worthy for Rex to - yet again - fly off the handle at every poster who posits an opposing viewpoint. 

As for the other stuff, lmao

[Rex Kramer 1260]

4 minutes ago, Foosters said:

The neg was for you acting like a whiny bitch and going after other posters who disagree with you. You are fucking unhinged on this thread, my man. Do you act like this in real life? 

 

No, I’m not. The comparison is silly and he should shut the fuck up. It appears you’re sympathetic to Hamas. 

[Foosters 17684]

Just now, Rex Kramer said:

No, I’m not. The comparison is silly and he should shut the fuck up. It appears you’re sympathetic to Hamas. 

Assume away, my dude.

[HellesBier 185]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

Or, i found it neg worthy for Rex to - yet again - fly off the handle at every poster who posits an opposing viewpoint. 

As for the other stuff, lmao

Maybe you are the little bitch?

[Rex Kramer 1260]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

Or, i found it neg worthy for Rex to - yet again - fly off the handle at every poster who posits an opposing viewpoint. 

As for the other stuff, lmao

Not flying off the handle. And never have. Have a nice day pal. 

[InkaUtexas 25169]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

Or, i found it neg worthy for Rex to - yet again - fly off the handle at every poster who posits an opposing viewpoint. 

As for the other stuff, lmao

Careful, Kramer will pull out the big analysis tool of great minds and insult your mother.

[Foosters 17684]

Just now, HellesBier said:

Maybe you are the little bitch?

haha, yeah maybe

good luck with "the resistance"

[Rex Kramer 1260]

Just now, Foosters said:

Assume away, my dude.

I really don’t care other than to point out what is apparent. I’ll call it out every time, and you’ll whine next time I’m unhinged. I don’t know how you feel on the subject and don’t care.

People in this thread go along with both sides posts made by Brisket and Inka, or even solely anti-Israel posts bolverk and fantana make, albeit to a lesser extent. All of these posters are moronic on the topic, and if me calling it out equates to being unhinged, then I’m a raging Derka on the matter, I guess. 

[InkaUtexas 25169]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

I really don’t care other than to point out what is apparent. I’ll call it out every time, and you’ll whine next time I’m unhinged. I don’t know how you feel on the subject and don’t care.

People in this thread go along with both sides posts made by Brisket and Inka, or even solely anti-Israel posts bolverk and fantana make, albeit to a lesser extent. All of these posters are moronic on the topic, and if me calling it out equates to being unhinged, then I’m a raging Derka on the matter, I guess. 

What both side posts? Who has said Israel does not have 1- Kick the shit out of Hamas, 2- Defend itself or 3- be supported as a modern nation?

Man, with your deep feelings have you considered heading over and moving into a Settlement? Being serious.

[Foosters 17684]

Just now, Rex Kramer said:

I really don’t care other than to point out what is apparent. I’ll call it out every time, and you’ll whine next time I’m unhinged. I don’t know how you feel on the subject and don’t care.

People in this thread go along with both sides posts made by Brisket and Inka, or even solely anti-Israel posts bolverk and fantana make, albeit to a lesser extent. All of these posters are moronic on the topic, and if me calling it out equates to being unhinged, then I’m a raging Derka on the matter, I guess. 

I'm not calling you out for disagreeing, I'm calling you out for being a massive dick to good posters who are merely offering their opinions or sharing the opinions of others. Responding with "fuck you" or "go fuck yourself" or "go fuck your mother" to posts that were in no way personal and simply offered opinion is neg worthy. Its one neg. It wont hurt you. And surely, someone telling people to go fuck themselves at the drop of a hat won't be bothered by one little neg? Or maybe you'll make a post about it and keep talking about it. 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

What both side posts? Who has said Israel does not have 1- Kick the shit out of Hamas, 2- Defend itself or 3- be supported as a modern nation?

Man, with your deep feelings have you considered heading over and moving into a Settlement? Being serious.

Yours. 

2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I'm not calling you out for disagreeing, I'm calling you out for being a massive dick to good posters who are merely offering their opinions or sharing the opinions of others. Responding with "fuck you" or "go fuck yourself" or "go fuck your mother" to posts that were in no way personal and simply offered opinion is neg worthy. Its one neg. It wont hurt you. And surely, someone telling people to go fuck themselves at the drop of a hat won't be bothered by one little neg? Or maybe you'll make a post about it and keep talking about it. 

You’re right. I apologized to him pretty quickly, so I wouldn’t consider myself unhinged. It’s tiresome having to read this shit constantly from a litany of “good posters”, however. There seems to be a healthy dose of contrarian antagonism here, and I don’t need to react strongly to it. 

[InkaUtexas 25169]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Yours. 

You’re right. I apologized to him pretty quickly, so I wouldn’t consider myself unhinged. It’s tiresome having to read this shit constantly from a litany of “good posters”, however. There seems to be a healthy dose of contrarian antagonism here, and I don’t need to react strongly to it. 

Where do I say they do not have those rights? I said right after this happened send in their SOCOM Groups and take out the leadership, and if desired, including the Hamas fucks hiding in Qatar. I have said that they should not be using 155mm and 2k bombs.

 

[Chopper 17038]

On 9/1/2024 at 3:28 PM, InkaUtexas said:

October 7 might not have happened if Israel has supported the PA more, and worked towards a two state solution.

So if not that, then what? Kill all Palestinians? Salt the land?

Correct me if I'm wrong but essentially wasn't the PA subsumed by Hamas? Admittedly I could be wrong...I just want to be clear I'm not playing a game of trying to one up you. If they weren't, I wonder how what you say should have happened would have played out internally to the Palestinians. Seems like Hamas has had the resources to take whatever they wanted within Palestinian borders.

I think condemning both Hamas and the Israeli government as led by Netanyahu is the right thing. Hoping for Israel's annihilation -- as some in this thread are apparently hoping for -- is woefully and embarrassingly misguided as to the interests of the United States, and frankly, for justice.   

[InkaUtexas 25169]

1 minute ago, Chopper said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but essentially wasn't the PA subsumed by Hamas? Admittedly I could be wrong...I just want to be clear I'm not playing a game of trying to one up you. If they weren't, I wonder how what you say should have happened would have played out internally to the Palestinians. Seems like Hamas has had the resources to take whatever they wanted within Palestinian borders.

I think condemning both Hamas and the Israeli government as led by Netanyahu is the right thing. Hoping for Israel's annihilation -- as some in this thread are apparently hoping for -- is woefully and embarrassingly misguided as to the interests of the United States, and frankly, for justice.   

Hamas took  over Gaza from the PA by force, and the region stood by and watched. Since then they have held Gaza like their private fiefdom. Stand up against them and you are killed. They were not able to take over in the West Bank though. PA is still there and in power, seen as the international face of the Palestinians.

They are pretty weak vs. the extremists like Hamas. They do not play dirty like Hamas did/does.

PA receives some support from the international community but not a lot.

[Chopper 17038]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Hamas took  over Gaza from the PA by force, and the region stood by and watched. Since then they have held Gaza like their private fiefdom. Stand up against them and you are killed. They were not able to take over in the West Bank though. PA is still there and in power, seen as the international face of the Palestinians.

They are pretty weak vs. the extremists like Hamas. They do not play dirty like Hamas did/does.

PA receives some support from the international community but not a lot.

I think if PA had anything worth taking Hamas would've taken it. At the same time, Netanyahu trying to bribe Hamas and having the gall to think it would work is one of the dumbest things ever.

Israel is in the jam it's in because it's a democracy and the wrong party has wedged itself into power. That's something we should all be concerned about given some in the US love to cozy up to autocrats. 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

11 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Where do I say they do not have those rights? I said right after this happened send in their SOCOM Groups and take out the leadership, and if desired, including the Hamas fucks hiding in Qatar. I have said that they should not be using 155mm and 2k bombs.

 

I didn’t say that. You’re putting words in my mouth. If you want to see my beef with what you’ve said, you might read my actual responses to your actual equivalence posts. 

[InkaUtexas 25169]

Just now, Chopper said:

I think if PA had anything worth taking Hamas would've taken it. At the same time, Netanyahu trying to bribe Hamas and having the gall to think it would work is one of the dumbest things ever.

Israel is in the jam it's in because it's a democracy and the wrong party has wedged itself into power. That's something we should all be concerned about given some in the US love to cozy up to autocrats. 

PA has West Bank. That is the prize between it and Gaza. I think the Jordanians would not let Hamas take over there.

And agree.

[Brisketexan 104189]

48 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

What do you have against Israelis? Maybe you dislike Jews and this is just a narrative to jump on?

THERE IT IS.  The easy, lazy, and guaranteed approach we knew we would get.  Fantastic.  Perfect.  Any criticism of Israel?  "YOU'RE ANTI-SEMITIC!  YOU SUPPORT HAMAS!"  Like.  Fucking.  Clockwork.  I fucking HATE Hamas, and I really and truly loathe the ignorant, counterproductive, and often flat-out fucking evil faction in this country that has let their sympathy for Palestinian civilians and their cause cause them to take positions that actually DO support Hamas and their evil.  But goddamn if I won't call out the same fucking type of bullshit from the "Israel at all times, at all costs" faction.

Oh, and also, you still failed to address:

1) Likud's stated approval for rape as a tactic (actual quote from actual Likud official)

2) Actual actions by a mob of Israelis to storm a base to free soldiers accused of said rape

3) What your plan for the Levant looks like, including the final snapshot and body count

And I know you never will actually honestly address those.  Because the truth will show you to be....well, exactly what you have already shown yourself to be.

Instead of answering those, you accuse anyone who DARES question ANYTHING the Israeli State and a sizable percentage of the Israeli population have done and supported as.....anti-semitic.  That's rich.  If you knew me, my family, and any of my personal history, it would be even funnier.  Or even more pathetic.

[Chopper 17038]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

The Israeli public doesn't just support them, but storms a military base demanding that they be freed.

The ruling party doesn't just support them or claim they are innocent, but says that rape is a legitimate weapon.

The problem here isn't the rape.  It's the underlined text.  Which you ignored.  Which is 100% unsurprising.  Because the State of Israel can do not wrong: if the State and the People support it, then it is right.

I've bolded, italicized and underlined the portion of your comment that makes no sense to me. It'd be like saying the people of the US supported what occurred on Jan. 6 because it was in support of the ruling party at the time. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

9 minutes ago, Chopper said:

I've bolded, italicized and underlined the portion of your comment that makes no sense to me. It'd be like saying the people of the US supported what occurred on Jan. 6 because it was in support of the ruling party at the time. 

Ummmm.....the bolded thing is more troubling than you think.  Because - not to go any more CR than is necessary to address that EXACT point - a candidate for POTUS who supports January 6ers and has pledged to pardon them has been leading in the polls until recently, and is still a 50/50 shot to win the presidency.  The Israeli people, or at least a sizable plurality, have given sufficient support to a shitty party and leadership to enable really shitty things to happen.  The American people have done similarly -- don't think that I hold us to any higher or lower standard or level of conduct.  We're pretty crappy, too.

And as to Israeli support, don't mistake eroding Israeli support for Bibi as a softening of the overall Israeli stance.  Sadly, a good chunk of Bibi's lost support comes from the right, because he's not doing enough (and because Israel is now compelling the ultra-orthodox to serve in the IDF).  There is a huge chunk of Israelis who support Likud (the party that actually said that rape is a legitimate weapon), and a huge chunk that backs that up (it wasn't just a person or two who overran a military base to free soldiers arrested for rape).

I'll be honest -- that's been my greatest disappointment, and what has disturbed me the most.  If this could be written off as "Bibi and the hardliners have outsized influence and power, and their actions don't reflect broad public sentiment," I'd feel much better for Israel's future.  But the bottom line is that the majority of Israelis are in favor of how the war has been prosecuted.  They may not like Bibi....but they like what he's doing.

[Chopper 17038]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ummmm.....the bolded thing is more troubling than you think.  Because - not to go any more CR than is necessary to address that EXACT point - a candidate for POTUS who supports January 6ers and has pledged to pardon them has been leading in the polls until recently, and is still a 50/50 shot to win the presidency.  The Israeli people, or at least a sizable plurality, have given sufficient support to a shitty party and leadership to enable really shitty things to happen.  The American people have done similarly -- don't think that I hold us to any higher or lower standard or level of conduct.  We're pretty crappy, too.

And as to Israeli support, don't mistake eroding Israeli support for Bibi as a softening of the overall Israeli stance.  Sadly, a good chunk of Bibi's lost support comes from the right, because he's not doing enough (and because Israel is now compelling the ultra-orthodox to serve in the IDF).  There is a huge chunk of Israelis who support Likud (the party that actually said that rape is a legitimate weapon), and a huge chunk that backs that up (it wasn't just a person or two who overran a military base to free soldiers arrested for rape).

I'll be honest -- that's been my greatest disappointment, and what has disturbed me the most.  If this could be written off as "Bibi and the hardliners have outsized influence and power, and their actions don't reflect broad public sentiment," I'd feel much better for Israel's future.  But the bottom line is that the majority of Israelis are in favor of how the war has been prosecuted.  They may not like Bibi....but they like what he's doing.

I think we at least partially agree because the USA also has a system where a candidate who receives a plurality, or less than a majority of votes, however you want to define it, can take control of the government and use it in an extremely malignant manner. Bibi has about the same % of the vote as does someone else who comes to mind. Conflating what the government does and using it as a way to condemn the entire nation and therefore, in this particular situation, its people, when it's the only nation in the region even attempting to have a democracy, seems misguided in my opinion. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

12 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Conflating what the government does and using it as a way to condemn the entire nation and therefore, in this particular situation, its people, when it's the only nation in the region even attempting to have a democracy, seems misguided in my opinion. 

I'm definitely not trying to do that (conflating what the government does with broad national support).  I'm attempting to carve out the support for the war and how it has been prosecuted, although polling on that has been sparse/sporadic.  To the extent that includes a discussion of Bibi and his popularity, I just note that a good chunk of his declining popularity includes loss of support from the right/hardline side (some of that loss of support being tied to the outcome of the ultra-orthodox now being required to serve in the IDF, which pisses off a chunk of the hard right).  And a right-wing coalition government that continues with a similar approach as Bibi has had seems like the most likely next regime, as a result of liekly voting, correct?  Seriously, that's what I understand/see -- correct me where I am wrong.

Most polling that I have seen shows continued broad support not just for the war (which is understandable), but for how it has been prosecuted.  How broad is hard to tell, but if not a majority, then a sizable plurality that is close to a majority and is large enough to drive a continuation of that approach.

Again, don't think I give a pass to us -- the worst elements/strains of the American "far right" are actually far more mainstream than most of us would like to admit.  We love hating us some foreigners and brown people.  It's not an anomaly or outlier, it's who we are (or at least who most of us are).  The problem with "even attempting to have a democracy" is that people are shitty, including Americans and Israelis (people are people, man).  So, when "the people" exercise their will, it is often a shitty thing.

I'm pissed off by Bibi, from his strategy to create and feed an existential threat to how he has responded when the beast he helped create/boost eventually did what beasts do.  I am pissed off by Likud, and their broad anti-Palestinian stance.  But I am DISAPPOINTED in how much support Bibi, the Israeli hard right, and the worst elements of Israel's approach to the war have gotten from the Israeli people as a whole.  The Israeli official position has been one that is pretty close to a war of annihilation/total ethnic cleansing....and the Israeli popular support for that approach has been pretty stout.  

I generally oppose wars of annihilation.  I really didn't think that would be a controversial take, but talking to the pro-Israel crowd on this site is 100% like the conversations I see people trying to have with the "from the River to the Sea" Palestinian supporters on other sites/social media.  It's pointless.  The pro-annihilation viewpoint is dominant on both sides of this war.  One side or another is going to get what they want, and in the process, become one of history's greatest villains.  Hooray.  What a stirring victory that will be.  Annihilation AND being a moral and political leper, what a FANTASTIC RESULT!

[Rex Kramer 1260]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

become one of history's greatest villains.

They won’t. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

10 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

They won’t. 

Yeah, stated and accomplished goals of ethnic cleansing, with nice graphic evidence of same, is typically endearing.  Worked wonders in the Balkans, everyone in the world loves the ethnic cleansing trophy case there, and thinks highly of the perpetrators.

OR....are you saying that because Israel has built up such sympathy over the years, it can do whatever it wants, to whomever it wants, no matter how bad it is, and face zero repercussions?  Because as to at least certain groups, you're not wrong.  As noted above -- Israel can do no wrong.  Israel could do everything that Hamas has ever done and more, and not lose a single iota of support from those folks.  Folks like you, for example.  There is nothing, not a single thing, that Israel could do to lose your support, or even to merit your criticism.  We get it.

Just realize that not everyone in the world thinks like you.

[Chopper 17038]

This is from the largest by circulation paid newspaper in Israel. (The largest daily by circulation is a freebie sponsored by Miriam Adelman, who unashamedly supports fascism in this country.)

Spoiler

Israelis were shocked, devastated and confounded by Sunday's news about the six hostages seemingly executed in cold blood by Hamas. They are furious and incensed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for his callous recklessness in repeatedly refusing a hostage deal. But they should not be surprised.
Netanyahu was never going to agree to a hostage deal. He wants and has a vested interest in prolonging the war. It's that simple. Tragic, inhuman, infuriating, but simple.
For some inexplicable reason the United States believed him, and most of the Israeli media played along with his lies and manipulations. Even the Israeli negotiating team, occasionally venting their frustration with him, never stood up publicly and exposed the truth: He does not want any hostage deal that includes a cease-fire that could signal the de facto end of the war.
It is very hard to find new ways, a new psycho-political diagnosis, new explanations, new angles, new terms or words to describe Benjamin Netanyahu's inept performance as prime minister or his character traits. It seems everything has been said and written.
But then he conjures another breathtaking exposition of cruelty, recklessness and incompetence. This time, it was the savage execution by Hamas of six Israeli hostages, all of whom could have been released and saved had Netanyahu assented to the very hostage and cease-fire deal he himself proposed in late May, and again in late July. Instead, he deceived and conned everyone, and ultimately reneged on it – though not without his trademark eye-rolling on how much he cares.

He was warned for months that through his evasive and spurious reluctance to strike a deal, he was recklessly condemning hostages to their fate. As late as last Thursday, he was told unequivocally by Defense Minister Yoav Gallant that his incomprehensible, senseless insistence on retaining an Israeli presence on the Philadelphi route between Gaza and Egypt was effectively sentencing hostages to death. He couldn't care less. In fact, no hostages, no worries.

He intentionally and grievously ignored those warnings. Netanyahu "knew the Israeli hostages were living on borrowed time ... their blood is on his hands," a senior member of Netanyahu's government told Haaretz's Gidi Weitz on Sunday. The source, cowardly remaining anonymous, added that everyone knew he is "a narcissist, a coward. But his lack of humanity was fully revealed in all its ugliness in recent months."

It is possible that in order to fully understand the underpinnings of his modus operandi and state of mind, you would have to depart from conventional political analysis and consult the American Psychiatric Association's trademark publication, "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" (Fifth Edition, 2013).
Since I am not qualified to make such observations, let alone a diagnosis, I'll stick with his psycho-political profile. Netanyahu has an acute case of political bipolarity. He is at once a man with delusions of grandeur, the self-ordained savior of Western civilization against "Islamo-fascism," a once-in-a-generation statesman whose contemporaries are incapable of fully appreciating him – and at the same time, an anxious, disoriented, panic-prone perpetual victim. He is convinced of his political acumen, but never stops whining about being victimized by an ungrateful world and even less grateful Israelis who fail to recognize his greatness.
Whether this is a mental state of affairs or whether it is planned by design is beyond me to determine. He is the person responsible for the worst debacle in Israeli history – Hamas' barbaric terror attack on October 7 – but who deeply believes it was the Israel Defense Forces and intelligence agencies' fault and that only he can fix it, denying any accountability.

He is at once pretending to be a seasoned and sophisticated global player while pushing Israel to isolation, condemnation and pariah status. He is a man who incessantly bragged about Israel's successes and yet single-handedly drove it to a level of value-destruction and chaos unprecedented in the history of democracies. He is at once grandstanding the merits of Israeli democracy, while instigating a constitutional coup and behaving like a garden-variety autocrat.
Jewish history, while not being unique in this respect, has a tradition of false or pseudo-messiahs: charlatans who invoke lofty quasi-religious fantasies to advance their fraudulent agenda. From Theudas, who tried to convince Jews to follow him across the Jordan River to redemption before being executed by the Romans in the year 46, to Shimon Bar Kochba, who led the failed rebellion against the Romans of 133-135, to Moses of Crete in 448, and the 12th century's David Alroy in Baghdad. Then there was the most famous false messiah of all: Shabbetai Zvi (1626-1676), who created an eponymous movement and later converted to Islam.
By almost every criteria, Mr. Netanyahu is a false messiah – actually a vile messiah – in both his self-image and the sycophantic cult around him. While he arrogantly regards himself as a providential gift to the Jewish people and Western civilization, his abysmal domestic and foreign policy, and security record, paints the exact opposite, starkest of pictures.
With regards to the hostage deal and cease-fire that he refused to reach, it was all too predictable. Politically, he needs the war and a war-like atmosphere to stay in power. Emergency and cowardice is the glue that holds his governing coalition together and, until Sunday night, prevented large-scale demonstrations. His proactive flirtation with escalations is part of the same logic: to shield him from political strife, vindicate his narrative that this is total war or "a second war of independence," as he calls it.
Then there is the American political angle. Netanyahu wants the war and the crisis to linger at least until November. He needs the war to become an electoral issue that hurts Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris, which it likely won't, but he is intent on helping Donald Trump. If the United States does nothing, the Biden administration would be accused of aloofness and inaction. If they exert pressure on Israel, Netanyahu will run and whine to his Republican friends that President Joe Biden and Harris betrayed him while he is fighting America's war, as he indicated in a speech to Congress in July.

The gap between Netanyahu's plethora of failures – Iran, the Palestinians, terror, Gaza, the economy, the cost of living, law and order – and the adulation of his base (25 to 33 percent of Israelis) is astounding. There are valid socio-political-cultural explanations, but the gap is so wide that it has all the attributes of a cult.
For his coalition and supporters, it has become a Jesus-like phenomenon: he is suffering for their sins, defending them, standing up for them. Accordingly, he developed a doctrine of "papal infallibility": that he, as their pope, is saved from the possibility of error when speaking ex cathedra, i.e., in an official capacity. So they dismiss the narcissism, the lies and the flaws.
They now apply the same logic to his refusal to conclude a hostage deal. If he did or said it, he must be right. Meanwhile, the majority of Israelis remain shocked by how deep their country has descended.

 

Edited September 3 by Chopper
to spoiler

[956 Worldwide 34185]

An honest assessment of public sentiment for or against atrocities and bloodshed will not leave either Israeli or Palestinian in a place to talk down or lecture the other.  Accusations about a “sick society” aren’t really helpful and can fairly stick to just about any actor in the region. 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah, stated and accomplished goals of ethnic cleansing, with nice graphic evidence of same, is typically endearing.  Worked wonders in the Balkans, everyone in the world loves the ethnic cleansing trophy case there, and thinks highly of the perpetrators.

OR....are you saying that because Israel has built up such sympathy over the years, it can do whatever it wants, to whomever it wants, no matter how bad it is, and face zero repercussions?  Because as to at least certain groups, you're not wrong.  As noted above -- Israel can do no wrong.  Israel could do everything that Hamas has ever done and more, and not lose a single iota of support from those folks.  Folks like you, for example.  There is nothing, not a single thing, that Israel could do to lose your support, or even to merit your criticism.  We get it.

Just realize that not everyone in the world thinks like you.

There are a lot of things they can do to lose my support. Those things do not include what you and bolverk post. The rest of your post is laughable and completed with one of the most ironic comments ever. You’re oblivious. 

[Anastasis 23275]

What could they do that would cause you to withdrawal your support?

[Rex Kramer 1260]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What could they do that would cause you to withdrawal your support?

I’m not particularly qualified to answer that, unlike all you resident George Friedmans here. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What could they do that would cause you to withdrawal your support?

I would suspect "stop killing the shit out of Palestinians" might do it.

Because we know that "raping prisoners and having leadership claim that it's a legitimate tactic," or "purposefully killing Palestinian civilians, including children [for fucking real, there are IDF soldiers captured on film doing it and bragging about it," or "calling for the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza so that only jewish Israelis will end up living there" aren't problems for him.

[Brisketexan 104189]

36 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

An honest assessment of public sentiment for or against atrocities and bloodshed will not leave either Israeli or Palestinian in a place to talk down or lecture the other.  Accusations about a “sick society” aren’t really helpful and can fairly stick to just about any actor in the region. 

Which is kind of my fucking point.

And while discussions of the dueling "sick societies" here isn't helpful in reaching any just or peaceful resolution...it's pretty fucking helpful to understanding why we have ZERO prospect of reaching a just or peaceful resolution.  The worst elements of each are leading their societies into and through a war where both sides seek annihilation and cleansing of the other.  Hamas won't rest until Israel and jews in the Levant are gone.  Israel won't stop until any meaningful Palestinian presence in Gaza (and the West Bank, if you're paying attention) is gone.  Solve that shit.  You can't.  Not without "annihilation of ____" being the answer.  

[PRONG HORN 3095]

 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Because we know that "raping prisoners and having leadership claim that it's a legitimate tactic," or "purposefully killing Palestinian civilians, including children [for fucking real, there are IDF soldiers captured on film doing it and bragging about it," or "calling for the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza so that only jewish Israelis will end up living there" aren't problems for him

Presumptuous Looney Tunes. 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

43 minutes ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

Part of the complete ethnic cleanse, you Zionist pig. 

[Brisketexan 104189]

29 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Part of the complete ethnic cleanse, you Zionist pig. 

Please cite any poster here lamenting that guy's death.

I know that you will not accept that most of us think Hamas is shit, and will not only not weep for, but will celebrate, the death of Hamas shitbags.....but we also don't think that Israel engaging in fucking complete ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza is okay or good.  Both of those things can be true.  But not in your world.  Anything less than complete and total support for Israel and everything it has ever done, is doing, and will do, means that person is a Hamas supporter and loves shitbag terrorists like Wadya.  Those are the only options.  Complete and total support for Israel and everything it does, or Hamas supporter.

Fuck that shit.

[Rex Kramer 1260]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Please cite any poster here lamenting that guy's death.

I know that you will not accept that most of us think Hamas is shit, and will not only not weep for, but will celebrate, the death of Hamas shitbags.....but we also don't think that Israel engaging in fucking complete ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from Gaza is okay or good.  Both of those things can be true.  But not in your world.  Anything less than complete and total support for Israel and everything it has ever done, is doing, and will do, means that person is a Hamas supporter and loves shitbag terrorists like Wadya.  Those are the only options.  Complete and total support for Israel and everything it does, or Hamas supporter.

Fuck that shit.

It’s notable someone as seemingly intelligent as you actually believes Israel is completely ethnically cleansing. Israel the state; not WB settlers. It’s a terrible take. Hyperbole and mockery is the only way to respond.