Israel-Hamas war thread

[sidis 9686]

10 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

The argument that what they're doing violates international law and that they often act without accountability is a legitimate one, but I don't really have a problem with what they did here. Minimal collateral damage.

Another thing I've been thinking about is I'm honestly not sure what this accomplishes in the long run. Obviously they spent a lot of time and money planning this, and it gives Hezbollah something to think about for sure, but ultimately what does it accomplish?

Are they trying to provoke open warfare with Lebanon or just thumb their noses at Hezbollah? I'm honestly unsure and I'd be curious to hear others' perspectives.

disruption of communication infrastructure that continues to push them backwards into more and more archaic and less efficient mechanisms. they had already pushed them back to the early 1990's.

completely new installation of communication protocols which takes lots of time and money.

further paranoia and guarding against a non-stop feeling of threat. attempting to enhance security is extremely expensive and laborious. slows things down considerably. that also leads to a temporary operational hurdle that makes them extremely ineffective or agile because they cannot coordinate efficiently.

the feeling that you are under threat 100% of the time regardless of where you are, when you are, who you are, what you are doing...demonstrating that they can get to you and instantly kill you by means you've never previously imagined and in your home with your family. it's psychologically deteriorating.

it, of course, further hardens the confrontation and ensures no peaceful coexistence in short and long term but unfortunately, we seem to have crossed that threshold for good.

 

eta: on the coordination point above, i do not think it is a coincidence that today we are seeing low level fighter jet flights over beirut and bombing runs all over southern lebanon in the immediate aftermath of them likely abandoning all their existing primary communication protocols.

Edited September 19 by sidis

[Brian Fantana 6651]

Yep, all good points. I'm mostly skeptical about any of this being good news for peace in the long run. They seem to be barrelling toward total war on multiple fronts.

[Skipper 5998]

7 minutes ago, sidis said:

 

 

eta: on the coordination point above, i do not think it is a coincidence that today we are seeing low level fighter jet flights over beirut and bombing runs all over southern lebanon in the immediate aftermath of them likely abandoning all their existing primary communication protocols.

I read somewhere a report that the initial plan was to coordinate detonation simultaneously with a more conventional attack but Israel had intelligence there was some suspicion by a couple of operatives that their pagers had been tampered with so Israel decided to go ahead and detonate earlier than planned.  In any event, I agree highly effective regardless for all of the reasons outlined above.

[Brisketexan 104199]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Yep, all good points. I'm mostly skeptical about any of this being good news for peace in the long run. They seem to be barrelling toward total war on multiple fronts.

Oh, none of it is good news for peace in the SHORT RUN.  But crippling your enemy so you can score some decisive wins against them can be good in the long run.

The fight with Hezbollah is different than the fight in Gaza.  The fight with Hezbollah is a proxy war between state actors.  It actually has a chance of reaching some resolution after one side gains a material combat advantage.

Gaza, on the other hand....it's a fight of extermination/cleansing.  It will end when Gaza and the Palestinians in it are gone.  That's the only visible end-game on that front.

[FartingMonk 3605]

The Israelis need to deliver cake to all the Hezbollah leaders.  Instead of it exploding.  A flag with BANG! pops up.  That will get the PTSD to max scale.

[sidis 9686]

18 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

The Israelis need to deliver cake to all the Hezbollah leaders.  Instead of it exploding.  A flag with BANG! pops up.  That will get the PTSD to max scale.

[Bevo 13465]

TEL AVIV—Israel launched a wave of airstrikes against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon Thursday, as the militant group’s leader said two days of debilitating attacks on its members amounted to a declaration of war.

The strikes came moments before Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah began to speak about the attacks earlier this week that caused pagers and walkie-talkies carried by thousands of the group’s members to explode, killing 37 people and injuring nearly 3,000.

 

Edited September 19 by Bevo

[InkaUtexas 25188]

Pagers got blowed up on Tuesday and walkie-talkies today. Does anyone have an expectation of what may or may not get 'sploded tomorrow?
Laptops maybe? Or nada? I guess speculating on that is the mindfuck part of these operations.
All I know is I'd be hesitant to set any alarms, turn on any TVs, run any microwaves, sit on any toilets, or start up any cars.

Ahmed!!!! You brought tabouli to the party???? Where did you get it why is it beeping?????

[InkaUtexas 25188]

Yep, all good points. I'm mostly skeptical about any of this being good news for peace in the long run. They seem to be barrelling toward total war on multiple fronts.

There ain’t going to be peace as westerners think about it. There will always be some sort of insurgency and intel operations to disrupt. But peace and koombaya sing alongside and meditation circles? Not at a 95% regional level.

[Nothing To Add 81]

If I am Israel I tell that UN gentleman that he is correct and we are willing to tell him all the details of the communications explosives.  In fact...it is so important that we do this immediately so we are going to give him a walkie talkie we have available so he can ask questions and we provide answers promptly.

[Captainant 27227]

3 minutes ago, Nothing To Add said:

If I am Israel I tell that UN gentleman that he is correct and we are willing to tell him all the details of the communications explosives.  In fact...it is so important that we do this immediately so we are going to give him a walkie talkie we have available so he can ask questions and we provide answers promptly.

Mailing a bomb to the UN isn't exactly what would be seen as a "good guy" move lol. Weird joke.

[Brian Fantana 6651]

37 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Mailing a bomb to the UN isn't exactly what would be seen as a "good guy" move lol. Weird joke.

Wanting to kill UN workers is a pretty baseline Zionist take if we're being real 😉

[Bevo 13465]

I'm surprised y'all aren't talking about the big F U that Israel just gave Hezbollah. Just as Hezbollah was declaring war on Israel today and was about to launch a large scale strike, Israel conducted a wave of airstrikes against Hezbollah positions and helped subvert the attack.
 

 

Quote

TEL AVIV—Israel launched a wave of airstrikes against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon Thursday, as the militant group’s leader said two days of debilitating attacks on its members amounted to a declaration of war.

The strikes came moments before Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah began to speak about the attacks earlier this week that caused pagers and walkie-talkies carried by thousands of the group’s members to explode, killing 37 people and injuring nearly 3,000.

 

[Brisketexan 104199]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I'm surprised y'all aren't talking about the big F U that Israel just gave Hezbollah. Just as Hezbollah was declaring war on Israel today and was about to launch a large scale strike, Israel conducted a wave of airstrikes against Hezbollah positions and helped subvert the attack.
 

 

 

A couple of us predicted it above. Disrupt the enemy's communications and confuse/disable its leadership, then attack.

[Laxtonto 11890]

This is the new comms devices that Hezbollah was able to source. They even got a bulk discount and the supplier said they would make sure that they get to them as soon as possible...

[InkaUtexas 25188]

18 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Wanting to kill UN workers is a pretty baseline Zionist take if we're being real 😉

UN workers get killed all over the place by lots of people of different backgrounds. Polio vaccine program in Pakistan was shut down because the UN personnel were being killed by islamists.

Not everything is zionist.

[bolverk 29202]

3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yep, all good points. I'm mostly skeptical about any of this being good news for peace in the long run. They seem to be barrelling toward total war on multiple fronts.

This analysis hits on long-term your concerns:

Pager Attack Highlights Tension Between Israel’s Technical Might and Strategic Fog
In Gaza, Lebanon and Iran, Israel has shown it’s capable of extraordinary acts of espionage, but is struggling to define long-term goals, according to Israeli analysts and public figures.

The contrast between the dexterity of Israel’s latest attacks on Hezbollah and the uncertainty over its long-term strategy in Lebanon is the latest example of a fragility at the heart of Israeli statecraft, according to Israeli public figures and analysts.

To friend and foe alike, Israel appears technologically strong, but strategically lost. It is capable of extraordinary acts of espionage, as well as powerful expressions of military might, but is struggling to tie such efforts to long-term diplomatic and geopolitical goals.

“You see the sophistication of the technological minds of Israel and the total failure of the political leadership to carry out any moves of consequence,” said Ehud Olmert, a former Israeli prime minister.

“They are too preoccupied and obsessed by their fears to do anything on a broader strategic basis,” Mr. Olmert said.

Israel’s security services have infiltrated and sabotaged Hezbollah’s communications networks by blowing up pagers and other wireless devices this week, but Israel’s leadership appears uncertain about how to contain the group in the long term. Israel has conducted several clandestine missions and assassinations inside Iran, most recently of the Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh by infiltrating a guesthouse protected by the Iranian security establishment. At the same time, it has avoided making the political concessions necessary to forge formal alliances with most of Iran’s opponents in the region.

Its commandos have freed several hostages from captivity through complex special operations, even as its politicians have failed to secure a wider deal to rescue more than 100 others still held in Gaza. And while Israel’s world-leading Air Force has pounded Gaza, destroying much of the territory’s urban fabric and killing top Hamas commanders like Muhammad Deif, the Israeli government has not issued a detailed and viable plan for Gaza’s postwar future.

The result is a slow and repetitive military campaign in Gaza in which Israeli soldiers are repeatedly capturing and then withdrawing from the same pockets of land, with no mandate to either hold ground or initiate a transfer of power to a different Palestinian leadership.

Israel’s campaigns have come at considerable cost. By killing tens of thousands of Gazan civilians as well as several hundred Lebanese in its strikes on enemy combatants, Israel has prompted international outcry, drawn accusations of genocide at the International Court of Justice and tarnished its global standing without conclusively destroying Hamas, let alone Hezbollah.

For now at least, Israel’s choices have also undermined its chance to forge diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia, the most influential Arab country and one that could provide Israel with an extra diplomatic and even military buffer against Iran and Hezbollah. Talks to normalize relations with Riyadh have stumbled amid Israel’s refusal to allow Palestinian sovereignty in Gaza and the West Bank after the war.

For some, the scrambled thinking is partly derived from the shock of Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel. The attack was the bloodiest day in Israel’s history and may have left Israel’s leaders seeking short-term wins to atone for their lapses that day, at the expense of long-term planning for Israel’s future. With many Israelis traumatized by the attack, their leaders risk losing popularity and further tarnishing their legacy by promoting contentious compromises to bring Israel’s various wars to a close.

“Tactical successes can be obtained by professionals, but large-scale achievements have to be achieved by leaders,” said Itamar Rabinovich, a former Israeli ambassador to Washington. “They must be able to bite their tongue, go against the grain, take unpopular decisions and political risks.”

For Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, Israel’s security must be prioritized at all costs, and Hamas and Hezbollah must be fully defanged — in part to restore the sense of deterrence and invincibility that Israel lost on Oct. 7 — before diplomatic compromises can be reached.

But to Mr. Netanyahu’s critics, true security cannot be achieved without a diplomatic vision that Israel’s allies and potential allies can accept; they argue that Israel’s successful operations against Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran will only have limited effect in the long term if they remain divorced from a coherent national strategy. According to his opponents, Mr. Netanyahu has allowed political considerations — principally his need to prevent the collapse of his fragile coalition government — to supersede strategic decisions that are opposed by his coalition allies.

Mr. Netanyahu’s grip on power is dependent on a group of far-right lawmakers who are opposed to the kinds of compromises necessary to reach an endgame in Gaza and Lebanon.

Those lawmakers have threatened to collapse Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition if he agrees to a truce in Gaza that leaves Hamas in power. They also oppose plans to hand power to Hamas’s main Palestinian rival, Fatah.

In turn, the standoff in Gaza has led to the extension of the war along the Israel-Lebanon border, where Hezbollah says it will continue fighting until a truce is reached between Israel and Hamas.

Mr. Netanyahu’s allies say the attacks this week in Lebanon, coupled with the deployment of more troops to the Lebanon border, show a clear strategic effort to use increased military action to force Hezbollah to compromise.

“Even though these are tactical moves, it’s part of a bigger plan,” said Nadav Shtrauchler, a political strategist and former adviser to Mr. Netanyahu. After months of contained conflict along the Israel-Lebanon border, Mr. Shtrauchler said, “We’re going to go strong at Hezbollah.”

To others, the moves still feel inconclusive, stopping short of a decisive end to the deadlock through either force or diplomacy. On the one hand, Mr. Netanyahu has avoided ordering a ground invasion of Lebanon. On the other, he has rejected a truce in Gaza that could end the Lebanon war through mediation.

“Where is he going? How does he end the war?” asked Mr. Rabinovich, the former ambassador. “All these fundamental questions have not been answered, and in some cases not even asked in the public discourse.”

To Mr. Olmert, the former prime minister, Israel’s lack of strategy extends far beyond Mr. Netanyahu.

The problem is rooted, Mr. Olmert said, in a reluctance across Israeli society and its establishment to address or sometimes even acknowledge a conundrum within Israel — the question of Palestinian sovereignty.

“There is no endgame on any issue without the Palestinians,” Mr. Olmert said.

Many Israelis now reject the idea of a Palestinian state because they feel a sovereign Palestine, shorn of Israeli supervision, would be more able to mount the kind of attack that Hamas initiated on Oct. 7.

Even centrist and left-leaning leaders mostly see the resumption of peace talks as a non-starter, given that one of the two leading Palestinian factions, Hamas, killed more than one thousand Israeli civilians less than a year ago and the other, Fatah, is weak and discredited among much of the Palestinian population.

Without agreeing to a pathway to a Palestinian state, it will be difficult for Israel to solve most of its other strategic binds, Mr. Olmert said.

For example, it will be harder to plan for a postwar Gaza without showing more flexibility on Palestinian sovereignty, Mr. Olmert said: The only feasible Palestinian alternative to Hamas is the Palestinian Authority, the Fatah-dominated institution that administers parts of the West Bank.

By allowing the Palestinian Authority to govern in both Gaza and the West Bank, Israel would in effect reestablish political contiguity between the two territories, making it easier to form a Palestinian state that spans both places.

Without at least some progress toward Palestinian statehood, it will also be harder for Israel to forge formal ties with Saudi Arabia, since the Saudi leadership has made clear that concessions to the Palestinians are a prerequisite for normalization. And by forging such an alliance, Israel could firm up its standing in the region and make Iran and its Hezbollah proxy warier of antagonizing Israel, since Saudi Arabia also shares Israel’s wariness of Tehran, Mr. Olmert said.

“Hezbollah and Iran won’t suddenly become Zionists, but it will change the balance,” said Mr. Olmert. “It will make life for Israel much easier to deal with such challenges.”

[Brisketexan 104199]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

To friend and foe alike, Israel appears technologically strong, but strategically lost. It is capable of extraordinary acts of espionage, as well as powerful expressions of military might, but is struggling to tie such efforts to long-term diplomatic and geopolitical goals.

Great thesis statement, and spot-on.

My entire career has been "handle adversarial shit."  And the most important question I ask and tease out with every client once they are in a fight is "what do you want to accomplish."  A LOT of times, the answer is the equivalent of "I want to blow up their pagers and make them bleed."  And I let the client tell me that, it's important and cathartic.  But you have to follow it with an "okay, let's presume we can make that happen....then what?  Because my question is really 'what do you want your world/business to look like when this case is over?'"

The ultimate answer then ends up being something like "I just want to be able to move on down the road, and conduct my business without them messing with my employees/supply chain/whatever."  Okay.  THAT is helpful to know.  NOW, let's talk about how we will use some of the tools available to us (litigation, or if you are Israel, military and diplomatic power) to get you there.

It's always about the ultimate goal.  And honestly, it's really hard to see that Israel is working towards any discernible and/or acceptable goal.  Its actions in Gaza are most consistent with a goal of "destroy all of Gaza and terrorize all Gazans so they leave."  It's not a good look, and it's not likely to advance them towards any goal that the rest of the world would get on board with.

RE Hezbollah, I can see some possible strategic goals being pursued, but really, it's all about Iran, and if/how Israel can get Iran to back the fuck off.  And I'm not sure how they can do that.

[Brian Fantana 6651]

12 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

UN workers get killed all over the place by lots of people of different backgrounds. Polio vaccine program in Pakistan was shut down because the UN personnel were being killed by islamists.

Not everything is zionist.

Yeah I know I was making a tasteless joke.

[bolverk 29202]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Great thesis statement, and spot-on.

My entire career has been "handle adversarial shit."  And the most important question I ask and tease out with every client once they are in a fight is "what do you want to accomplish."  A LOT of times, the answer is the equivalent of "I want to blow up their pagers and make them bleed."  And I let the client tell me that, it's important and cathartic.  But you have to follow it with an "okay, let's presume we can make that happen....then what?  Because my question is really 'what do you want your world/business to look like when this case is over?'"

The ultimate answer then ends up being something like "I just want to be able to move on down the road, and conduct my business without them messing with my employees/supply chain/whatever."  Okay.  THAT is helpful to know.  NOW, let's talk about how we will use some of the tools available to us (litigation, or if you are Israel, military and diplomatic power) to get you there.

It's always about the ultimate goal.  And honestly, it's really hard to see that Israel is working towards any discernible and/or acceptable goal.  Its actions in Gaza are most consistent with a goal of "destroy all of Gaza and terrorize all Gazans so they leave."  It's not a good look, and it's not likely to advance them towards any goal that the rest of the world would get on board with.

RE Hezbollah, I can see some possible strategic goals being pursued, but really, it's all about Iran, and if/how Israel can get Iran to back the fuck off.  And I'm not sure how they can do that.

I can't say I'd argue with you on any of those points. But speaking to the Hezbollah situation, I'm not sure what Israel can accomplish in the long term other than maybe buying a decade or so of security on their northern border, which might very well be Bibi's intent. Israel has invaded southern Lebanon, what, 2-3 times since the late 70s? In each instance, the IDF invaded and fucked shit/people up with no other tangible results. They went in, wrecked shop, ended up in a stalemate, and went home, leaving Hezbollah still intact as both a political and military force.

I guess the thinking is "This time will be different." But how so? I did read/saw either yesterday or Tuesday an article/news story that touched on Hezbollah's political power in Lebanon where they take part in the government in some very confusing way but are more often described as a "state within a state" and basically control the southern tier of the country. In it, they put forth a position that public support for Hezbollah has deteriorated in the past few years as folks have become increasingly skeptical of the organization, with some conjecture that they somehow played a role in that big port explosion whose video we all gawked over a while back.  So, maybe Israeli intelligence has picked up on that and sees this as an opportunity that could very well be different. I dunno.

Back to the larger question on the Israeli government's vision and strategy: It is my personal belief that much of their actions, especially concerning the West Bank and Gaza are all ultimately self-destructive and place the country in a weaker position globally. Sure, they've repeatedly proven they can kick their immediate neighbors' asses, but their lopsided and heavy-handed military actions and "security" policies virtually ensure the continued regeneration of neighbors who hate them alongside the long-term erosion of support from Western allies.

At some point, an Israeli leader will have to make a diplomatic compromise with the Palestinians, or they'll never have peace. That is if they actually want it. 

[InkaUtexas 25188]

I can't say I'd argue with you on any of those points. But speaking to the Hezbollah situation, I'm not sure what Israel can accomplish in the long term other than maybe buying a decade or so of security on their northern border, which might very well be Bibi's intent. Israel has invaded southern Lebanon, what, 2-3 times since the late 70s? In each instance, the IDF invaded and fucked shit/people up with no other tangible results. They went in, wrecked shop, ended up in a stalemate, and went home, leaving Hezbollah still intact as both a political and military force.
I guess the thinking is "This time will be different." But how so? I did read/saw either yesterday or Tuesday an article/news story that touched on Hezbollah's political power in Lebanon where they take part in the government in some very confusing way but are more often described as a "state within a state" and basically control the southern tier of the country. In it, they put forth a position that public support for Hezbollah has deteriorated in the past few years as folks have become increasingly skeptical of the organization, with some conjecture that they somehow played a role in that big port explosion whose video we all gawked over a while back.  So, maybe Israeli intelligence has picked up on that and sees this as an opportunity that could very well be different. I dunno.
Back to the larger question on the Israeli government's vision and strategy: It is my personal belief that much of their actions, especially concerning the West Bank and Gaza are all ultimately self-destructive and place the country in a weaker position globally. Sure, they've repeatedly proven they can kick their immediate neighbors' asses, but their lopsided and heavy-handed military actions and "security" policies virtually ensure the continued regeneration of neighbors who hate them alongside the long-term erosion of support from Western allies.
At some point, an Israeli leader will have to make a diplomatic compromise with the Palestinians, or they'll never have peace. That is if they actually want it. 

Agree. But again define peace. There are way too many assholes for “peace”.

[Brisketexan 104199]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

There are way too many assholes for “peace”.

All of Surly:

[bolverk 29202]

8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Agree. But again define peace. There are way too many assholes for “peace”.

It's a good question. Just now in trying to come up with a good response, I'm reflecting on other "resolved" conflicts where two religious/ethnic groups have historical claims over the same parcels of land, and to be honest, it's difficult to come up with hopeful comparisons.

The best two that my admittedly limited (and extremely Eurocentric) library of knowledge can come up with are the Northern Ireland and Kosovo/Bosnia situations. Both peaces are shaky to varying degrees and were more or less the results of outside powers (US/NATO/EU) kind of forcing peace on them, but they're both holding steady for now. You would know about the former Yugoslavia shit better than me, for sure, and yeah I know there has been some Serbian rumbling.

I guess the naive optimist in me believes people can get along (or at least not be at each others' throats) once they gain some perspective. If (big if) a couple of generations from each warring side learn to live in peace and begin to prosper, they just might put some of their mutual hatred aside and focus on the greater good and their own well-being.

Sure, there will always be agitating assholes ready to shit in the punch bowl, but I can see no other way forward until the current belligerent leadership of all sides is out of power (I'm mostly speaking of the Israeli/Palestinian issue). The Iranian/Hezbollah situation is somewhat different given those two are completely tied at the hip, militarily and politically whereas I think Hamas is more isolated.

I doubt those are groundbreaking thoughts and they can certainly be pulled apart, but you asked my opinion so I wanted to give you my best, honest answer.

[956 Worldwide 34205]

Bibi has said openly that he wants 60,000 people to return to their homes in the north. If looking for a motivation and end goal, I’d start there and work backwards. It would relieve some domestic tension coming from the fact that he isn’t getting hostages back alive. 

The goal of a north that is livable and not under rocket fire is one that can be filed under “reasonable, although likely hypocritical given Israel’s behavior in WB.” 
 

 

[RDCanecutter 26162]

14 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

so how are they going to communicate moving forward ?

They are mountain folk. Will probably learn to yodel.

[SL Xpress 7503]

5 hours ago, sidis said:

disruption of communication infrastructure that continues to push them backwards into more and more archaic and less efficient mechanisms. they had already pushed them back to the early 1990's.

completely new installation of communication protocols which takes lots of time and money.

further paranoia and guarding against a non-stop feeling of threat. attempting to enhance security is extremely expensive and laborious. slows things down considerably. that also leads to a temporary operational hurdle that makes them extremely ineffective or agile because they cannot coordinate efficiently.

the feeling that you are under threat 100% of the time regardless of where you are, when you are, who you are, what you are doing...demonstrating that they can get to you and instantly kill you by means you've never previously imagined and in your home with your family. it's psychologically deteriorating.

it, of course, further hardens the confrontation and ensures no peaceful coexistence in short and long term but unfortunately, we seem to have crossed that threshold for good.

 

eta: on the coordination point above, i do not think it is a coincidence that today we are seeing low level fighter jet flights over beirut and bombing runs all over southern lebanon in the immediate aftermath of them likely abandoning all their existing primary communication protocols.

 

That threshold was crossed when Jews took over Israel and displaced the Palestinians from their previous homeland, and the Palestinians didn't just disappear as a cultural identity. 

There has never been a legitimate two state solution that would work in the long term. In the end the Palestinians will not be satisfied until the Jews are expelled from Palestine, and shockingly enough, the Jews have no actual interest in leaving. There are plenty of Jews who see the more satisfactory solution being the Palestinians are expelled for the most part from Gaza and the West Bank, with Israeli settlers occupying those lands. 

Anything resembling an approach to "long term peace" is actually a temporary ceasefire until people are in charge of one group or the other who resume hostilities. 

People decry this mentality as barbarous. Somehow folks want to believe we've moved beyond this as human beings, but we really haven't. We're inured by military strength and the possession of nuclear weapons that can potentially end all life on earth into thinking we're no longer the genocidal maniacs that have been eliminating competing species and fellow human tribes since the dawn of our existence. The world is full of places where the people in power are forcibly removing a cultural identity from the face of the earth with every means at their disposal. Just like we always have.

To me people should pick a side. Either support Palestinians in their efforts to regain Palestine and Jerusalem for their own, and support yet another expulsion of the Jews from Israel. It's been 2000 years. They're probably due. No temple restoration to destroy this time, but you can't have everything. Or support Israel in their right to defend themselves. And since the Palestinians are never going to allow the Jews to peaceably permanently occupy the former Palestinian homelands, that's going to necessitate a broad range of actions that are going to make people very uncomfortable. Blowing up pagers and walkie talkies seems mild to me. 

I'm pro Israel. I make no bones about it. I can't defend everything the Jews have done or continue to do there, but either I think they should have a homeland of their own after existing as the most successful minority in history for 2000 years, or I don't. Coming out of WWII and the Holocaust, the Western powers supported it, either tacitly or explicitly. It has helped immeasurably that Jews have found some of their greatest successes as a diaspora in the United States, and have formed arguably the most powerful lobbying group in the country. It also helps that there is an evangelical Christian element that supports Israel for their own reasons, in part because they're rooting for the end of the world and they feel like the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel is a harbinger. 

In any case, this feels like it's going to continue to get worse, possibly interspersed by interregnums of a sort where we have something resembling peace in the region, even if it's a temporary mirage. 

[Welshy 907]

13 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

 

That threshold was crossed when Jews took over Israel and displaced the Palestinians from their previous homeland, and the Palestinians didn't just disappear as a cultural identity. 

There has never been a legitimate two state solution that would work in the long term. In the end the Palestinians will not be satisfied until the Jews are expelled from Palestine, and shockingly enough, the Jews have no actual interest in leaving. There are plenty of Jews who see the more satisfactory solution being the Palestinians are expelled for the most part from Gaza and the West Bank, with Israeli settlers occupying those lands. 

Anything resembling an approach to "long term peace" is actually a temporary ceasefire until people are in charge of one group or the other who resume hostilities. 

People decry this mentality as barbarous. Somehow folks want to believe we've moved beyond this as human beings, but we really haven't. We're inured by military strength and the possession of nuclear weapons that can potentially end all life on earth into thinking we're no longer the genocidal maniacs that have been eliminating competing species and fellow human tribes since the dawn of our existence. The world is full of places where the people in power are forcibly removing a cultural identity from the face of the earth with every means at their disposal. Just like we always have.

To me people should pick a side. Either support Palestinians in their efforts to regain Palestine and Jerusalem for their own, and support yet another expulsion of the Jews from Israel. It's been 2000 years. They're probably due. No temple restoration to destroy this time, but you can't have everything. Or support Israel in their right to defend themselves. And since the Palestinians are never going to allow the Jews to peaceably permanently occupy the former Palestinian homelands, that's going to necessitate a broad range of actions that are going to make people very uncomfortable. Blowing up pagers and walkie talkies seems mild to me. 

I'm pro Israel. I make no bones about it. I can't defend everything the Jews have done or continue to do there, but either I think they should have a homeland of their own after existing as the most successful minority in history for 2000 years, or I don't. Coming out of WWII and the Holocaust, the Western powers supported it, either tacitly or explicitly. It has helped immeasurably that Jews have found some of their greatest successes as a diaspora in the United States, and have formed arguably the most powerful lobbying group in the country. It also helps that there is an evangelical Christian element that supports Israel for their own reasons, in part because they're rooting for the end of the world and they feel like the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel is a harbinger. 

In any case, this feels like it's going to continue to get worse, possibly interspersed by interregnums of a sort where we have something resembling peace in the region, even if it's a temporary mirage. 

[nineliveslost 2700]

1 hour ago, Welshy said:

one of my favorite memes. I love memes and use them frequently 

BUT what do you dispute? What is your solution? How do you make or create a livable peaceful solution when two people hate each other? 

 

[Deej 76333]

On 9/17/2024 at 2:58 PM, Brisketexan said:

Word is this scrolled across the screen:

 

[Deej 76333]

[Welshy 907]

50 minutes ago, nineliveslost said:

one of my favorite memes. I love memes and use them frequently
BUT what do you dispute? What is your solution? How do you make or create a livable peaceful solution when two people hate each other? 

 

I'm not disputing anything. I have no idea what the solution is. The meme (to me) implies not knowing what to do. 

...are you the meme police? Are you going to give me a ticket? 

[nineliveslost 2700]

2 minutes ago, Welshy said:

I'm not disputing anything. I have no idea what the solution is. The meme (to me) implies not knowing what to do. 

...are you the meme police? Are you going to give me a ticket? 

[Laxtonto 11890]

 

[Armybrat 40627]

8 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

 

Combustible cabrito?

Hijo de la chingada!!

[InkaUtexas 25188]

5 hours ago, bolverk said:

It's a good question. Just now in trying to come up with a good response, I'm reflecting on other "resolved" conflicts where two religious/ethnic groups have historical claims over the same parcels of land, and to be honest, it's difficult to come up with hopeful comparisons.

The best two that my admittedly limited (and extremely Eurocentric) library of knowledge can come up with are the Northern Ireland and Kosovo/Bosnia situations. Both peaces are shaky to varying degrees and were more or less the results of outside powers (US/NATO/EU) kind of forcing peace on them, but they're both holding steady for now. You would know about the former Yugoslavia shit better than me, for sure, and yeah I know there has been some Serbian rumbling.

I guess the naive optimist in me believes people can get along (or at least not be at each others' throats) once they gain some perspective. If (big if) a couple of generations from each warring side learn to live in peace and begin to prosper, they just might put some of their mutual hatred aside and focus on the greater good and their own well-being.

Sure, there will always be agitating assholes ready to shit in the punch bowl, but I can see no other way forward until the current belligerent leadership of all sides is out of power (I'm mostly speaking of the Israeli/Palestinian issue). The Iranian/Hezbollah situation is somewhat different given those two are completely tied at the hip, militarily and politically whereas I think Hamas is more isolated.

I doubt those are groundbreaking thoughts and they can certainly be pulled apart, but you asked my opinion so I wanted to give you my best, honest answer.

I think you have laid it about as close as we could wish for. The problem withe multiple generation thing is once shit gets going well, one generation says fuck this, I read a book and those assholes across the river/valley, whatever are the cause of all my woes. Lets go fuck em up. And there we go again.

For instance, I expect a Balkan war within 10 years. I will be surprised if something, low key compared to the 1990's, does not happen.

[B00M 6237]

3 hours ago, Welshy said:

I'm not disputing anything. I have no idea what the solution is. The meme (to me) implies not knowing what to do. 

...are you the meme police? Are you going to give me a ticket? 

Meme police were beneficial and easily could’ve jumped straight to STOP RESISTING in this situation. That meme suggested you thought his post was too stupid to seriously reply to. 

[Brian Fantana 6651]

4 hours ago, nineliveslost said:

one of my favorite memes. I love memes and use them frequently 

BUT what do you dispute? What is your solution? How do you make or create a livable peaceful solution when two people hate each other? 

 

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

[Zepol87 9134]

2 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Combustible cabrito?

Hijo de la chingada!!

I’d try it 

[PRONG HORN 3094]

17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is

 

 

My mental gymnastics consist of Israel are the good guys, and the terrorists are the bad guys.  

 

 

17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference.

 

 

There aren't any clips/pics/articles of young palestinians being to taught to hate Israelis?  How many instances of kids being taught to hate do you want?  Or, is whatever I might post just going to be the exception that rarely ever actually happens?   

 

 

 

[B00M 6237]

30 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

[Brian Fantana 6651]

7 minutes ago, B00M said:

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

[PRONG HORN 3094]

7 minutes ago, B00M said:

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

 

 

You don't.  Only they can choose that.  That's where this is at.  It's not at the "how do you make them" stage anymore.  Eventually the palestinian people will yield.  Eventually they'll choose to peacefully co-exist.  

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23287]

4 hours ago, B00M said:

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

If you are the United States, the answer seems to be “By sending one side globemasters full of bombs while our state department runs interference for an ethnic cleansing operation.”

[SL Xpress 7503]

5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

Israel isn't going to be anything other than a Jewish homeland. They will ensure it remains an ethno apartheid state because to allow the Palestinians to gain power completely eliminates the whole purpose in founding a Jewish state in the first place. They'll allow minority Palestinian representation but no real legislative power. They're never going to be the bastion of democracy you're wanting them to be. 

There's no haven possible for both Palestinians and Israelis together. Not for any kind of equal numbers. A small number of Palestinians can live in Israel as long as they're no threat to coming into real power.  

You can talk about how one group learns to hate and the other group is taught to hate, but the truth is seeing each other as the enemy is practically as natural as breathing for them. The hate started when the Palestinians lived in the place Israelis wanted for their own, and then after they were displaced they wanted it back. I don't know about all the immutable characteristics, but that's a pretty fundamental one. Not sure how you go about halving the baby in that case. 

I don't know about all the mental gymnastics and blind spots I have to set up for myself. I want Israel to be a nation state. I have a deep respect for Judaism. I find it remarkable they existed for a couple of millenia as a distinct people without having a nation state. Things have been messy since the formation of Israel because people were already living there. Trying to graft some kind of peaceable solution when the dynamics won't allow for it seems quixotic to me. I mean, more power to the people who try to bring a cessation to hostilities, but it's not going to last. 

[SL Xpress 7503]

5 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

You don't.  Only they can choose that.  That's where this is at.  It's not at the "how do you make them" stage anymore.  Eventually the palestinian people will yield.  Eventually they'll choose to peacefully co-exist.  

 

 

 

Why would the Palestinians yield? What does that even look like? Gaza has been reduced to uninhabitable rubble. Do you think they're ready to go somewhere else? They feel if they leave it just gives Israel the opportunity to occupy more of their land. There's not going to be any yielding. The IDF and Mossad can kill as many Palestinian leaders they want. More will take their place. It's just an endless cycle of horrific violence until either the Palestinians or the Israelis lose most of their cultural identity. 

I'll put it another way. Does anyone think if Hamas could go back and do it all over again they would choose not to launch their initial attack, or change how it was conducted? Because I don't. It has been and will be celebrated as a great victory. It's like wondering if people who were associated with Al Qaeda would choose not to destroy the World Trade Center. They struck a great victory against an implacable foe, and if they can gather the means to do it again, they'll do so. Put another way, if anyone associated with Hamas/Hezbollah could get their hands on a nuke, get it inside Israel and detonate it, do we think they wouldn't? 

[MagicSoccerSpray 1725]

 

[nineliveslost 2700]

8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

Neither of us are pro ethnic cleansing. 

What is your solution? A realistic solution?

[Armybrat 40627]

8 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

I’d try it 

Well, it may have a bitter taste with some jihadist dick mixed in with the cabrito.

[InkaUtexas 25188]

Neither of us are pro ethnic cleansing. 
What is your solution? A realistic solution?

Two states. I can get into details when at a computer. Tapa sucks. I know the supporters of extremism on this forum won’t like it but I don’t see them chiming in shit useful. Fuck the naysayers. Something has to happen. Cliff notes
1- internal politics. Israel allows more autonomy for Palestinians authority. Allows them to build a civil infrastructure for what we would consider simple. Shit like export licenses. Israel has to stop the expansion of settlements. They need to give up some and not just turn an eye away from its growth. They did that with Gaza in 2005.
2- external politics. Both sides get back to talking. Israel just tells hamas fuck off we don’t recognize you. Pressure pa to solve it and be the face of both enclaves. Allow Arab (non Iran) to invest. Pressure the gulf states to invest in real shit. Pa goes on a campaign as the moderate voice of both enclaves. Lebanon is told. We will invest but hezbollah is outlawed tomorrow. Or we will just keep leveling the border and bekka valley.
3- economy. See above. Encourage some development. Run a global campaign made in Palestine. Can begin small cottage and grow. Shit I would buy some olives from there happily. Toss in some Jesus fertilized here and the Christian right will jump at it.
4- social. This is the hard one. There was an integration movement. Want kids to grow up not hating? Get them into secular schools together. Start there. Small things like combined art shows. Make working together an acceptable concept. Takes time. Can happen. People who eat together tend to not blow each other up.
5- most critical. Develop a vision that there is a better tomorrow for both. Sell this internally and outside. Don’t let the region continue to be used by outside actors. Looking at the Arab states and far right in the us. Tell them both to fuck off. You are not from here so your voice matters little.

Would not be easy at all. But it can be done. First step. Bibi and Hamas leadership. get exiled to a shit island together. They want to fight give em both a pointy stick.

Was not going to chime in but the meme wars above made me.

Well, it may have a bitter taste with some jihadist dick mixed in with the cabrito.

Maybe some like it spicy. Who are you to judge?

[Armybrat 40627]

That region has been in turmoil off & on pretty regular for at least 3 thousand years.

Nobody or any organization alive today is going to change that.