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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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That region has been in turmoil off & on pretty regular for at least 3 thousand years.
Nobody or any organization alive today is going to change that.

That is why 5 is the most important. How many times with Germanic tribes fight their neighbors? I mean you were there right? Do you see Germany moving back towards France any time soon?
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Maybe some like it spicy. Who are you to judge?

Great post.
Yet we are at a time where I’ve never seen both Palestinian AND Israeli leadership less interested in such an approach. The worst, most genocidal elements are in charge in each camp right now. There is zero room or appetite for the ideas you’re discussing right now. Hell, look at this thread, where people who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza, and don’t have any criticism of what Israel is doing anywhere. The shift to the extreme and the extreme only is discouraging as hell.
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Great post.
Yet we are at a time where I’ve never seen both Palestinian AND Israeli leadership less interested in such an approach. The worst, most genocidal elements are in charge in each camp right now. There is zero room or appetite for the ideas you’re discussing right now. Hell, look at this thread, where people who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza, and don’t have any criticism of what Israel is doing anywhere. The shift to the extreme and the extreme only is discouraging as hell.

The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.

Great post.
Yet we are at a time where I’ve never seen both Palestinian AND Israeli leadership less interested in such an approach. The worst, most genocidal elements are in charge in each camp right now. There is zero room or appetite for the ideas you’re discussing right now. Hell, look at this thread, where people who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza, and don’t have any criticism of what Israel is doing anywhere. The shift to the extreme and the extreme only is discouraging as hell.

The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.
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42 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:


The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.
The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.

That sounds very hopeful. I pray it is true. Who is the moderate voice for the Palestinians? Is it a new organization? And not the shitheels of Hamas or Hezbolla?

CHIEF

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2 hours ago, CHIEF said:

Who is the moderate voice for the Palestinians? Is it a new organization? And not the shitheels of Hamas or Hezbolla?

In countries/regions with very limited freedom of speech, the moderates get punished for not toeing the extremist party line. The moderate voice is there, it's  just get eyes poked out or tongues sliced off when said moderates publicly speak their minds.

Moderates here in the US are just shouted down by the extremes of their party who get a lot of airtime and publicity because it drives fear and outrage and that leads to clicks, eyeballs and subscription/advertising dollars. 

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24 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

Moderates here in the US are just shouted down by the extremes of their party who get a lot of airtime and publicity because it drives fear and outrage and that leads to clicks, eyeballs and subscription/advertising dollars. 

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

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9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

No it’s not lol. I say this, yet believe you and bolverk are more reasonable on Israel than I thought even 2 days ago.

What do you think the default American position is?

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

Not sure you can make a blanket assessment like that when we are really in no position to tell where moderate is. At least not from sitting in the US. And not from our own geopolitical, ethnic and often religious biases.

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1 hour ago, Newdoc said:

Not sure you can make a blanket assessment like that when we are really in no position to tell where moderate is. At least not from sitting in the US. And not from our own geopolitical, ethnic and often religious biases.

Our elected officials absolutely have a default position of unconditional support of Israel's actions, including continuing to fund and arm them to the tune of many billions of American taxpayer dollars no matter what they do. That is not a moderate position at all when you take into account how extremely right wing the leadership of Israel is and that many of the actions they have taken in the past several decades would straight up be considered terrorism if any country that wasn't Israel (or the United States) engaged in them.

A moderate position would start with cutting off the gravy train until certain conditions are met, like ceasing all attempts at the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank. Removal of the settlers, etc.

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28 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Our elected officials absolutely have a default position of unconditional support of Israel's actions, including continuing to fund and arm them to the tune of many billions of American taxpayer dollars no matter what they do. That is not a moderate position at all when you take into account how extremely right wing the leadership of Israel is and that many of the actions they have taken in the past several decades would straight up be considered terrorism if any country that wasn't Israel (or the United States) engaged in them.

A moderate position would start with cutting off the gravy train until certain conditions are met, like ceasing all attempts at the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank. Removal of the settlers, etc.

 

I'm hesitant to post this because the article dips its toes in the CR waters, but it certainly demonstrates how US support for Israel has changed over the years and how past presidents weren't too shy about using US aid to influence Israeli policy.

Quick read. Free link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/10/us/politics/biden-reagan-israel.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ME4.iNod.B2Mjk-zIgD_H&smid=url-share

 

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