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Posted
8 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:


Agree. But again define peace. There are way too many assholes for “peace”.

It's a good question. Just now in trying to come up with a good response, I'm reflecting on other "resolved" conflicts where two religious/ethnic groups have historical claims over the same parcels of land, and to be honest, it's difficult to come up with hopeful comparisons.

The best two that my admittedly limited (and extremely Eurocentric) library of knowledge can come up with are the Northern Ireland and Kosovo/Bosnia situations. Both peaces are shaky to varying degrees and were more or less the results of outside powers (US/NATO/EU) kind of forcing peace on them, but they're both holding steady for now. You would know about the former Yugoslavia shit better than me, for sure, and yeah I know there has been some Serbian rumbling.

I guess the naive optimist in me believes people can get along (or at least not be at each others' throats) once they gain some perspective. If (big if) a couple of generations from each warring side learn to live in peace and begin to prosper, they just might put some of their mutual hatred aside and focus on the greater good and their own well-being.

Sure, there will always be agitating assholes ready to shit in the punch bowl, but I can see no other way forward until the current belligerent leadership of all sides is out of power (I'm mostly speaking of the Israeli/Palestinian issue). The Iranian/Hezbollah situation is somewhat different given those two are completely tied at the hip, militarily and politically whereas I think Hamas is more isolated.

I doubt those are groundbreaking thoughts and they can certainly be pulled apart, but you asked my opinion so I wanted to give you my best, honest answer.

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Posted

Bibi has said openly that he wants 60,000 people to return to their homes in the north. If looking for a motivation and end goal, I’d start there and work backwards. It would relieve some domestic tension coming from the fact that he isn’t getting hostages back alive. 

The goal of a north that is livable and not under rocket fire is one that can be filed under “reasonable, although likely hypocritical given Israel’s behavior in WB.” 
 

 

Posted
5 hours ago, sidis said:

disruption of communication infrastructure that continues to push them backwards into more and more archaic and less efficient mechanisms. they had already pushed them back to the early 1990's.

completely new installation of communication protocols which takes lots of time and money.

further paranoia and guarding against a non-stop feeling of threat. attempting to enhance security is extremely expensive and laborious. slows things down considerably. that also leads to a temporary operational hurdle that makes them extremely ineffective or agile because they cannot coordinate efficiently.

the feeling that you are under threat 100% of the time regardless of where you are, when you are, who you are, what you are doing...demonstrating that they can get to you and instantly kill you by means you've never previously imagined and in your home with your family. it's psychologically deteriorating.

it, of course, further hardens the confrontation and ensures no peaceful coexistence in short and long term but unfortunately, we seem to have crossed that threshold for good.

 

eta: on the coordination point above, i do not think it is a coincidence that today we are seeing low level fighter jet flights over beirut and bombing runs all over southern lebanon in the immediate aftermath of them likely abandoning all their existing primary communication protocols.

 

That threshold was crossed when Jews took over Israel and displaced the Palestinians from their previous homeland, and the Palestinians didn't just disappear as a cultural identity. 

There has never been a legitimate two state solution that would work in the long term. In the end the Palestinians will not be satisfied until the Jews are expelled from Palestine, and shockingly enough, the Jews have no actual interest in leaving. There are plenty of Jews who see the more satisfactory solution being the Palestinians are expelled for the most part from Gaza and the West Bank, with Israeli settlers occupying those lands. 

Anything resembling an approach to "long term peace" is actually a temporary ceasefire until people are in charge of one group or the other who resume hostilities. 

People decry this mentality as barbarous. Somehow folks want to believe we've moved beyond this as human beings, but we really haven't. We're inured by military strength and the possession of nuclear weapons that can potentially end all life on earth into thinking we're no longer the genocidal maniacs that have been eliminating competing species and fellow human tribes since the dawn of our existence. The world is full of places where the people in power are forcibly removing a cultural identity from the face of the earth with every means at their disposal. Just like we always have.

To me people should pick a side. Either support Palestinians in their efforts to regain Palestine and Jerusalem for their own, and support yet another expulsion of the Jews from Israel. It's been 2000 years. They're probably due. No temple restoration to destroy this time, but you can't have everything. Or support Israel in their right to defend themselves. And since the Palestinians are never going to allow the Jews to peaceably permanently occupy the former Palestinian homelands, that's going to necessitate a broad range of actions that are going to make people very uncomfortable. Blowing up pagers and walkie talkies seems mild to me. 

I'm pro Israel. I make no bones about it. I can't defend everything the Jews have done or continue to do there, but either I think they should have a homeland of their own after existing as the most successful minority in history for 2000 years, or I don't. Coming out of WWII and the Holocaust, the Western powers supported it, either tacitly or explicitly. It has helped immeasurably that Jews have found some of their greatest successes as a diaspora in the United States, and have formed arguably the most powerful lobbying group in the country. It also helps that there is an evangelical Christian element that supports Israel for their own reasons, in part because they're rooting for the end of the world and they feel like the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel is a harbinger. 

In any case, this feels like it's going to continue to get worse, possibly interspersed by interregnums of a sort where we have something resembling peace in the region, even if it's a temporary mirage. 

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Posted
13 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

 

That threshold was crossed when Jews took over Israel and displaced the Palestinians from their previous homeland, and the Palestinians didn't just disappear as a cultural identity. 

There has never been a legitimate two state solution that would work in the long term. In the end the Palestinians will not be satisfied until the Jews are expelled from Palestine, and shockingly enough, the Jews have no actual interest in leaving. There are plenty of Jews who see the more satisfactory solution being the Palestinians are expelled for the most part from Gaza and the West Bank, with Israeli settlers occupying those lands. 

Anything resembling an approach to "long term peace" is actually a temporary ceasefire until people are in charge of one group or the other who resume hostilities. 

People decry this mentality as barbarous. Somehow folks want to believe we've moved beyond this as human beings, but we really haven't. We're inured by military strength and the possession of nuclear weapons that can potentially end all life on earth into thinking we're no longer the genocidal maniacs that have been eliminating competing species and fellow human tribes since the dawn of our existence. The world is full of places where the people in power are forcibly removing a cultural identity from the face of the earth with every means at their disposal. Just like we always have.

To me people should pick a side. Either support Palestinians in their efforts to regain Palestine and Jerusalem for their own, and support yet another expulsion of the Jews from Israel. It's been 2000 years. They're probably due. No temple restoration to destroy this time, but you can't have everything. Or support Israel in their right to defend themselves. And since the Palestinians are never going to allow the Jews to peaceably permanently occupy the former Palestinian homelands, that's going to necessitate a broad range of actions that are going to make people very uncomfortable. Blowing up pagers and walkie talkies seems mild to me. 

I'm pro Israel. I make no bones about it. I can't defend everything the Jews have done or continue to do there, but either I think they should have a homeland of their own after existing as the most successful minority in history for 2000 years, or I don't. Coming out of WWII and the Holocaust, the Western powers supported it, either tacitly or explicitly. It has helped immeasurably that Jews have found some of their greatest successes as a diaspora in the United States, and have formed arguably the most powerful lobbying group in the country. It also helps that there is an evangelical Christian element that supports Israel for their own reasons, in part because they're rooting for the end of the world and they feel like the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel is a harbinger. 

In any case, this feels like it's going to continue to get worse, possibly interspersed by interregnums of a sort where we have something resembling peace in the region, even if it's a temporary mirage. 

Confused Little Girl GIF

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Posted
1 hour ago, Welshy said:

Confused Little Girl GIF

one of my favorite memes. I love memes and use them frequently 

BUT what do you dispute? What is your solution? How do you make or create a livable peaceful solution when two people hate each other? 

 

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Posted
50 minutes ago, nineliveslost said:

one of my favorite memes. I love memes and use them frequently
BUT what do you dispute? What is your solution? How do you make or create a livable peaceful solution when two people hate each other? 

 

I'm not disputing anything. I have no idea what the solution is. The meme (to me) implies not knowing what to do. 

...are you the meme police? Are you going to give me a ticket? 

impressive GIF

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Posted
5 hours ago, bolverk said:

It's a good question. Just now in trying to come up with a good response, I'm reflecting on other "resolved" conflicts where two religious/ethnic groups have historical claims over the same parcels of land, and to be honest, it's difficult to come up with hopeful comparisons.

The best two that my admittedly limited (and extremely Eurocentric) library of knowledge can come up with are the Northern Ireland and Kosovo/Bosnia situations. Both peaces are shaky to varying degrees and were more or less the results of outside powers (US/NATO/EU) kind of forcing peace on them, but they're both holding steady for now. You would know about the former Yugoslavia shit better than me, for sure, and yeah I know there has been some Serbian rumbling.

I guess the naive optimist in me believes people can get along (or at least not be at each others' throats) once they gain some perspective. If (big if) a couple of generations from each warring side learn to live in peace and begin to prosper, they just might put some of their mutual hatred aside and focus on the greater good and their own well-being.

Sure, there will always be agitating assholes ready to shit in the punch bowl, but I can see no other way forward until the current belligerent leadership of all sides is out of power (I'm mostly speaking of the Israeli/Palestinian issue). The Iranian/Hezbollah situation is somewhat different given those two are completely tied at the hip, militarily and politically whereas I think Hamas is more isolated.

I doubt those are groundbreaking thoughts and they can certainly be pulled apart, but you asked my opinion so I wanted to give you my best, honest answer.

I think you have laid it about as close as we could wish for. The problem withe multiple generation thing is once shit gets going well, one generation says fuck this, I read a book and those assholes across the river/valley, whatever are the cause of all my woes. Lets go fuck em up. And there we go again.

For instance, I expect a Balkan war within 10 years. I will be surprised if something, low key compared to the 1990's, does not happen.

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Posted
3 hours ago, Welshy said:

I'm not disputing anything. I have no idea what the solution is. The meme (to me) implies not knowing what to do. 

...are you the meme police? Are you going to give me a ticket? 

impressive GIF

Meme police were beneficial and easily could’ve jumped straight to STOP RESISTING in this situation. That meme suggested you thought his post was too stupid to seriously reply to. 

Posted
4 hours ago, nineliveslost said:

one of my favorite memes. I love memes and use them frequently 

BUT what do you dispute? What is your solution? How do you make or create a livable peaceful solution when two people hate each other? 

 

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

Posted
17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is

 

 

My mental gymnastics consist of Israel are the good guys, and the terrorists are the bad guys.  

 

 

17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference.

 

 

There aren't any clips/pics/articles of young palestinians being to taught to hate Israelis?  How many instances of kids being taught to hate do you want?  Or, is whatever I might post just going to be the exception that rarely ever actually happens?   

 

 

 

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

Posted
7 minutes ago, B00M said:

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

 

 

You don't.  Only they can choose that.  That's where this is at.  It's not at the "how do you make them" stage anymore.  Eventually the palestinian people will yield.  Eventually they'll choose to peacefully co-exist.  

 

 

 

Posted
4 hours ago, B00M said:

So how do you make them simultaneously stop teaching their kids to hate each other?

If you are the United States, the answer seems to be “By sending one side globemasters full of bombs while our state department runs interference for an ethnic cleansing operation.”

Posted
5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

Israel isn't going to be anything other than a Jewish homeland. They will ensure it remains an ethno apartheid state because to allow the Palestinians to gain power completely eliminates the whole purpose in founding a Jewish state in the first place. They'll allow minority Palestinian representation but no real legislative power. They're never going to be the bastion of democracy you're wanting them to be. 

There's no haven possible for both Palestinians and Israelis together. Not for any kind of equal numbers. A small number of Palestinians can live in Israel as long as they're no threat to coming into real power.  

You can talk about how one group learns to hate and the other group is taught to hate, but the truth is seeing each other as the enemy is practically as natural as breathing for them. The hate started when the Palestinians lived in the place Israelis wanted for their own, and then after they were displaced they wanted it back. I don't know about all the immutable characteristics, but that's a pretty fundamental one. Not sure how you go about halving the baby in that case. 

I don't know about all the mental gymnastics and blind spots I have to set up for myself. I want Israel to be a nation state. I have a deep respect for Judaism. I find it remarkable they existed for a couple of millenia as a distinct people without having a nation state. Things have been messy since the formation of Israel because people were already living there. Trying to graft some kind of peaceable solution when the dynamics won't allow for it seems quixotic to me. I mean, more power to the people who try to bring a cessation to hostilities, but it's not going to last. 

Posted
5 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

You don't.  Only they can choose that.  That's where this is at.  It's not at the "how do you make them" stage anymore.  Eventually the palestinian people will yield.  Eventually they'll choose to peacefully co-exist.  

 

 

 

Why would the Palestinians yield? What does that even look like? Gaza has been reduced to uninhabitable rubble. Do you think they're ready to go somewhere else? They feel if they leave it just gives Israel the opportunity to occupy more of their land. There's not going to be any yielding. The IDF and Mossad can kill as many Palestinian leaders they want. More will take their place. It's just an endless cycle of horrific violence until either the Palestinians or the Israelis lose most of their cultural identity. 

I'll put it another way. Does anyone think if Hamas could go back and do it all over again they would choose not to launch their initial attack, or change how it was conducted? Because I don't. It has been and will be celebrated as a great victory. It's like wondering if people who were associated with Al Qaeda would choose not to destroy the World Trade Center. They struck a great victory against an implacable foe, and if they can gather the means to do it again, they'll do so. Put another way, if anyone associated with Hamas/Hezbollah could get their hands on a nuke, get it inside Israel and detonate it, do we think they wouldn't? 

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Posted
8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

The post was bloviating nonsense, a long-winded way of letting us know that he's firmly pro ethnic cleansing because "people have to pick sides". The idea that you have to either support the expulsion of all Jews from Israel or support a Jewish ethno-state is straight up bullshit. It's actually just completely baby-brained shitposting. There's a whole bunch of mental gymnastics and convenient blind spots you have to set up for yourself to be pro-Israel as it is: an ethno-apartheid state, rather than Israel as it should be: the genuine bastion of democracy they claim to be but actually aren't even close to and never have been in reality.

I place myself in the latter category of being "pro-Israel". I firmly believe it should and can exist as a true haven for both Palestinians and Israelis.

It also isn't helpful to pretend they just hate each other and that's that. Palestinians, for the most part, learn to hate Israelis. Israelis, for the most part, are taught to hate Palestinians. It is a subtle but profound difference. It's a plain and simple lie that they hate each other because of each other's immutable characteristics.

Neither of us are pro ethnic cleansing. 

What is your solution? A realistic solution?

Posted
Neither of us are pro ethnic cleansing. 
What is your solution? A realistic solution?

Two states. I can get into details when at a computer. Tapa sucks. I know the supporters of extremism on this forum won’t like it but I don’t see them chiming in shit useful. Fuck the naysayers. Something has to happen. Cliff notes
1- internal politics. Israel allows more autonomy for Palestinians authority. Allows them to build a civil infrastructure for what we would consider simple. Shit like export licenses. Israel has to stop the expansion of settlements. They need to give up some and not just turn an eye away from its growth. They did that with Gaza in 2005.
2- external politics. Both sides get back to talking. Israel just tells hamas fuck off we don’t recognize you. Pressure pa to solve it and be the face of both enclaves. Allow Arab (non Iran) to invest. Pressure the gulf states to invest in real shit. Pa goes on a campaign as the moderate voice of both enclaves. Lebanon is told. We will invest but hezbollah is outlawed tomorrow. Or we will just keep leveling the border and bekka valley.
3- economy. See above. Encourage some development. Run a global campaign made in Palestine. Can begin small cottage and grow. Shit I would buy some olives from there happily. Toss in some Jesus fertilized here and the Christian right will jump at it.
4- social. This is the hard one. There was an integration movement. Want kids to grow up not hating? Get them into secular schools together. Start there. Small things like combined art shows. Make working together an acceptable concept. Takes time. Can happen. People who eat together tend to not blow each other up.
5- most critical. Develop a vision that there is a better tomorrow for both. Sell this internally and outside. Don’t let the region continue to be used by outside actors. Looking at the Arab states and far right in the us. Tell them both to fuck off. You are not from here so your voice matters little.

Would not be easy at all. But it can be done. First step. Bibi and Hamas leadership. get exiled to a shit island together. They want to fight give em both a pointy stick.

Was not going to chime in but the meme wars above made me.
Well, it may have a bitter taste with some jihadist dick mixed in with the cabrito.

Maybe some like it spicy. Who are you to judge?
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Posted
That region has been in turmoil off & on pretty regular for at least 3 thousand years.
Nobody or any organization alive today is going to change that.

That is why 5 is the most important. How many times with Germanic tribes fight their neighbors? I mean you were there right? Do you see Germany moving back towards France any time soon?
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Posted

Maybe some like it spicy. Who are you to judge?

Great post.
Yet we are at a time where I’ve never seen both Palestinian AND Israeli leadership less interested in such an approach. The worst, most genocidal elements are in charge in each camp right now. There is zero room or appetite for the ideas you’re discussing right now. Hell, look at this thread, where people who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza, and don’t have any criticism of what Israel is doing anywhere. The shift to the extreme and the extreme only is discouraging as hell.
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Posted

Great post.
Yet we are at a time where I’ve never seen both Palestinian AND Israeli leadership less interested in such an approach. The worst, most genocidal elements are in charge in each camp right now. There is zero room or appetite for the ideas you’re discussing right now. Hell, look at this thread, where people who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza, and don’t have any criticism of what Israel is doing anywhere. The shift to the extreme and the extreme only is discouraging as hell.

The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.

Great post.
Yet we are at a time where I’ve never seen both Palestinian AND Israeli leadership less interested in such an approach. The worst, most genocidal elements are in charge in each camp right now. There is zero room or appetite for the ideas you’re discussing right now. Hell, look at this thread, where people who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza, and don’t have any criticism of what Israel is doing anywhere. The shift to the extreme and the extreme only is discouraging as hell.

The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.
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Posted
42 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:


The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.
The voices are there. I talk to a few friends on both sides. Issue is the moderate voices are shouted over. Like these threads the more extreme takes become the focus. Back and forth down we go.

I expect to hear something from the opposition in Israel soon. A plan forward. Quiet backing from the Arab states. Jordan might take lead as the voice for the Arabs. Arabs don’t want to see a few things. The destruction, stronger Iran and a bunch of refugees they say no to.

That sounds very hopeful. I pray it is true. Who is the moderate voice for the Palestinians? Is it a new organization? And not the shitheels of Hamas or Hezbolla?

CHIEF

Posted
That sounds very hopeful. I pray it is true. Who is the moderate voice for the Palestinians? Is it a new organization? And not the shitheels of Hamas or Hezbolla?
CHIEF

The Palestinian authority was. Or that was the plan. But they were not mean enough.
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Posted
2 hours ago, CHIEF said:

Who is the moderate voice for the Palestinians? Is it a new organization? And not the shitheels of Hamas or Hezbolla?

In countries/regions with very limited freedom of speech, the moderates get punished for not toeing the extremist party line. The moderate voice is there, it's  just get eyes poked out or tongues sliced off when said moderates publicly speak their minds.

Moderates here in the US are just shouted down by the extremes of their party who get a lot of airtime and publicity because it drives fear and outrage and that leads to clicks, eyeballs and subscription/advertising dollars. 

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Posted
35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Israel just blew up the fucker that did the 1983 Marine Barracks bombing. Fuck that asshole.  Fantastic work by the IDF. 

Reports are the strike was delivered by F-35. 
 

 

Oh shit I remember that guy.

Posted
24 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

Moderates here in the US are just shouted down by the extremes of their party who get a lot of airtime and publicity because it drives fear and outrage and that leads to clicks, eyeballs and subscription/advertising dollars. 

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

Posted
5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

[P]eople who were always pro-Israel but perhaps more moderate are [now] just fine with total ethnic cleaning of Gaza.

Absolutely stunned by the people I’ve heard this from recently. 

Posted
1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

Not sure you can make a blanket assessment like that when we are really in no position to tell where moderate is. At least not from sitting in the US. And not from our own geopolitical, ethnic and often religious biases.

Posted
1 hour ago, Newdoc said:

Not sure you can make a blanket assessment like that when we are really in no position to tell where moderate is. At least not from sitting in the US. And not from our own geopolitical, ethnic and often religious biases.

Our elected officials absolutely have a default position of unconditional support of Israel's actions, including continuing to fund and arm them to the tune of many billions of American taxpayer dollars no matter what they do. That is not a moderate position at all when you take into account how extremely right wing the leadership of Israel is and that many of the actions they have taken in the past several decades would straight up be considered terrorism if any country that wasn't Israel (or the United States) engaged in them.

A moderate position would start with cutting off the gravy train until certain conditions are met, like ceasing all attempts at the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank. Removal of the settlers, etc.

Posted
28 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Our elected officials absolutely have a default position of unconditional support of Israel's actions, including continuing to fund and arm them to the tune of many billions of American taxpayer dollars no matter what they do. That is not a moderate position at all when you take into account how extremely right wing the leadership of Israel is and that many of the actions they have taken in the past several decades would straight up be considered terrorism if any country that wasn't Israel (or the United States) engaged in them.

A moderate position would start with cutting off the gravy train until certain conditions are met, like ceasing all attempts at the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank. Removal of the settlers, etc.

 

I'm hesitant to post this because the article dips its toes in the CR waters, but it certainly demonstrates how US support for Israel has changed over the years and how past presidents weren't too shy about using US aid to influence Israeli policy.

Quick read. Free link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/10/us/politics/biden-reagan-israel.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ME4.iNod.B2Mjk-zIgD_H&smid=url-share

 

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Posted
14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not even the extremes, the default position on Israel in the US is far to the right of moderate, even for a LOT of otherwise progressive people/politicians.

Many interesting books on the brain washing of Americans towards certain geo political stances. Most elites say the propaganda is good. Have the lower and middle class be distracted by culture / religious wars rather then than money.

Screenshot_20240921_034823_Google.thumb.jpg.3c18e3ab88b5864aecd579138d863391.jpg

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