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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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18 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Funny, that quote is used constantly by Palestinian and Arab leaders, and pro Palestinian protestors. Likud isn’t above reproach by any stretch, but this contrarian what aboutism is hilarious. 

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Palestinians chanting "to the river to the sea" (meaning "drive all jews out of the levant") and committing heinous violence against Israeli and jewish civilians....engenders rage, a violent response, and pure hatred....and UNDERSTANDABLY SO.  THAT'S THE NATURAL RESPONSE TO SUCH THINGS.

Being that it's the natural response to such things....why on earth would one expect that it wouldn't work exactly the same in both directions.  When Israelis, including influential figures within the actual government, say and do the exact same things....why wouldn't we expect Palestinians to react the same way?

And....IF our goal is to eliminate/sharply limit future violent action against Israeli and jewish people....how does this approach accomplish that, in the actual strategic long-term?  How is this not cutting one of Hydra's heads off (immensely satisfying) only to see one or more grow back in its place (so...not so satisfying)?

I'd like to see the Israeli state continue, surviving and indeed thriving.  

I'd like to see Israeli and jewish people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there, but it can indeed be minimized).

I'd like to see Palestinian people live safe and decent lives, surviving and indeed thriving, probably in an actual Palestinian state of some sort.

I'd like to see Palestinian people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there - some of them "internal" and homegrown, but it can indeed be minimized).

 

What Hamas did on October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It helped create new generational hatred.

Much of what Israel has done since October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It's helping create new generational hatred.

 

Rational people want us to get off of this deranged and horrific round-and-round-we-go merry go-round.....yet Palestinian and Israeli leadership are just making the merry go-round spin faster and faster and faster.  What baffles many of us is how anyone who purports to want a future of peace and security could call this current path "winning."

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48 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you explicitly. The demand for smuggled-in weapons stems from the oppressive conditions Gazans have been living under since 1967. That's the fuel that feeds the fire. It's simple human psychology. Fuck, take a look at how Americans reacted to the beginning of the pandemic when they thought that an oppressive government was keeping them from going to Applebees or Supercuts. We, collectively, freaked the fuck out, marched in the streets with ARs, barged into state capitols, tried to kidnap governors, etc.

Ironically, those are the same conditions under which other assholes can take power for themselves. In this case, Hamas, which I'm obviously no fan of and which you should be aware of since I know you lurk the CR thread where I've pasted articles about Hamas's own oppression of the Gazans, including those that compare them to the Stasi and how Palestinians living in Gaza have protested against them.

Now, as to the Gazan infrastructure questions. Sure, Hamas is a wholly corrupt organization that has diverted international funding intended for humanitarian purposes. We expect that from corrupt autocrats to amass wealth and retain power. But you should also remember that groundwater is the only source for that strip of desert, and Israel has been limiting how much water can be pumped. Not only that, Israel controls the distribution of power and telecom within Gaza and disrupts their services at will.

Ok. Now do Egypt. 

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Palestinians chanting "to the river to the sea" (meaning "drive all jews out of the levant") and committing heinous violence against Israeli and jewish civilians....engenders rage, a violent response, and pure hatred....and UNDERSTANDABLY SO.  THAT'S THE NATURAL RESPONSE TO SUCH THINGS.

Being that it's the natural response to such things....why on earth would one expect that it wouldn't work exactly the same in both directions.  When Israelis, including influential figures within the actual government, say and do the exact same things....why wouldn't we expect Palestinians to react the same way?

And....IF our goal is to eliminate/sharply limit future violent action against Israeli and jewish people....how does this approach accomplish that, in the actual strategic long-term?  How is this not cutting one of Hydra's heads off (immensely satisfying) only to see one or more grow back in its place (so...not so satisfying)?

I'd like to see the Israeli state continue, surviving and indeed thriving.  

I'd like to see Israeli and jewish people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there, but it can indeed be minimized).

I'd like to see Palestinian people live safe and decent lives, surviving and indeed thriving, probably in an actual Palestinian state of some sort.

I'd like to see Palestinian people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there - some of them "internal" and homegrown, but it can indeed be minimized).

 

What Hamas did on October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It helped create new generational hatred.

Much of what Israel has done since October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It's helping create new generational hatred.

 

Rational people want us to get off of this deranged and horrific round-and-round-we-go merry go-round.....yet Palestinian and Israeli leadership are just making the merry go-round spin faster and faster and faster.  What baffles many of us is how anyone who purports to want a future of peace and security could call this current path "winning."

Well 6-5 is a "winning season." ask aggy.

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

If he wants a comparison, please do Mexico, Sudan, Burma and a few other places the world deals with while you are at it.

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39 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Nope. You are both sides-ing the fuck out of this and I won’t let you do it. You’re trying way too hard. 

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

The Arabs would prefer a safer Palestine than all of them as refugees. They would rather send money in than have them come out. They do not need to while Israel and to a lesser degree the international community (not just the UNRWA, the US has unilateral projects in both the West Bank and Gaza, primary development led by USAID) prop up the governments. They get to scream about injustice in public while cutting deals with Israelis in Europe. It feeds the street so the focus is on that vs. they corrupt nature of their own governments. It is also important to note we toss around the word Arab like we do Latino. There is a major difference among them. A Syrian is not a Yemeni who is not a Algerian who is not an Egyptian but they all talk shit about Israel and hate the Saudis.

The Arab nations, led probably by the GCC, could create the utility infrastructure for Gaza and probably turn a profit. But there lies 1 big issue to this that is overlooked. The brain drain. Are there electrical engineers who can maintain something built? With the Israeli control of imports, what port do you use? Ideally it would be based out of Egypt and an overland corridor, but the fear is under the current conditions the Palestinians would go south into the Sinai to escape both Israel and Hamas.

There are quite a few aggressive authoritarian states the world, including the US deals with. You could argue under the Likud Israel is led by an authoritarian party. Authoritarian does not mean a dictator. So lets start with Russia. Yep, up until Ukraine we all dealt with them, and some western companies and non-western countries we like continue to do so. India and China. Currently we can add El Salvador under Bukele, Hungary under Orban, South Africa under the ANC in South Africa, Egypt with the fall of the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas' buddy), etc.... Shit, add the PRI in Mexico.

Creating a Palestinian state, as noted, would be a nation against a nation if they attacked. If Hamas is the leadership, well it is still a nation-state. The world would expect them to behave like one. Now they can play the Occupied Territory card all they want with no action against them. take it away from them.

Using the Kurds as an example. Post Saddam, though they do no allow Kurdistan to be an independent nation, does give them a lot more say in their day to day lives. Relations really changed. So much that the Kurds saved Iraq's ass from ISIS. Then look at Turkey. They are dicks to the Kurds, so the PKK blows up shit in Turkey. I would prefer to see an independent Kurdistan. But by giving them more of a voice and recognition (there is a US Consulate in Erbil) the animosity in less than one generation has decreased.

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

They know exactly what you mean. But you know Egypt won’t get shade from “reasonable” people. A sovereign liberal democratic Palestine would never happen in my children’s lifetimes. In their poorly defined pipe dream, Palestine would be iron fist ruled by corrupt leaders, and become a serious threat to Israel in short order.  Israel would react predictably, shut those savages down, and the world would cry foul. Every one of these motherfuckers posting here knows it. 

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18 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

They know exactly what you mean. But you know Egypt won’t get shade from “reasonable” people. A sovereign liberal democratic Palestine would never happen in my children’s lifetimes. In their poorly defined pipe dream, Palestine would be iron fist ruled by corrupt leaders, and become a serious threat to Israel in short order.  Israel would react predictably, shut those savages down, and the world would cry foul. Every one of these motherfuckers posting here knows it. 

As long as they are occupied they do not have to answer to the world. Make them behave if they want aid. We do that to kim jong dick fuck. we were doing that to Iran. We do it to Venezuela. Why do we give in to Gaza? Cuz they can rightfully play the occupied status.

Look, no one on this board bitched if Israel blew up a building full of Hamas/Hezbollah/IRG in Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank or Syria. I think the discussion is don't fucking hit the hospital. Hold your troops to international standards. Don't bend to their level. Hold individuals who do bend down to the Hamas level, desecrate bodies, rape, etc accountable like the US and UK did to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and currently the Canadians and Aussies are doing to theirs for crimes committed by individuals. And what Taliban and Iraqi insurgents of the various sects did was atrocious.

In Israel's case it has the appearance that this is State sponsored and led.

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1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

They know exactly what you mean. But you know Egypt won’t get shade from “reasonable” people. A sovereign liberal democratic Palestine would never happen in my children’s lifetimes. In their poorly defined pipe dream, Palestine would be iron fist ruled by corrupt leaders, and become a serious threat to Israel in short order.  Israel would react predictably, shut those savages down, and the world would cry foul. Every one of these motherfuckers posting here knows it. 

It's absolutely hilarious that he doesn't see that this is pure racism. Palestinians/Arabs can't be reasonable. They're orcs. It's in their DNA, don't you see? They're "savages". The only reason he isn't saying "sand n*****s" is he would get banned. It's the same reason he would never acknowledge or answer any questions about the IDF soldiers that raped Palestinian prisoners to death. He thinks they're less than human, straight up, and those kinds of retaliatory actions are acceptable. If you engage him on this topic in any way, you have to understand that his position is purely based on racism. That he's as dumb as a fucking hammer is just icing on the cake.

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Nope. You are both sides-ing the fuck out of this and I won’t let you do it. You’re trying way too hard. 

This post made me laugh so hard I nearly dropped my phone. Seriously the dumbest person on Surly. The mental gymnastics are incredible.

e: Sorry, I won't address Rex anymore it's just too goddamn funny to pass up sometimes.

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7 hours ago, bolverk said:

Israel controls all utilities in Gaza, including water, electricity, and telecoms, and they've rationed the shit out of it in punitive measures to the extent that Gazans have been made to suffer -- even in times of peace. In addition, Gazan fishermen have not even been allowed to fish in their own territorial waters nor have Palestinians been allowed access to their own gas fields in the Mediterranean Sea. They've been under a near-total blockade (no scare quotes needed) for two decades. 

Now, imagine whether more Gazans would've moderated and not felt the need to resort to armed revolt if there were no blockade. I guess we'll never know...

Every functional state requires the ability to control their borders, land, resources and freedom of movement. I am quite certain that the natural gas reserves that sit under gazan territorial waters are involved in the calculus of all the parties involved. 

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Nope. You are both sides-ing the fuck out of this and I won’t let you do it. You’re trying way too hard. 

Your sputtering rage posting is interesting to watch.
Especially when it leads you to post something as utterly stupid as this. I don’t have to “try” at all. I LITERALLY can quote “from the river to the sea” from both Hamas leadership and Israeli leadership. No “trying” at all - it’s just sitting there for anyone with open eyes to point out.
Some posters on this thread have had the honesty to admit their goal: complete ethnic cleansing if all Palestinians from the levant. Significant voices in Israeli leadership have said the same. Kinda funny that you call for all of the actions to accomplish that…but then say that’s not your goal. Just finish the thought. You’ll feel better, and you won’t have to keep lying to the rest of us.
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17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Your sputtering rage posting is interesting to watch.
Especially when it leads you to post something as utterly stupid as this. I don’t have to “try” at all. I LITERALLY can quote “from the river to the sea” from both Hamas leadership and Israeli leadership. No “trying” at all - it’s just sitting there for anyone with open eyes to point out.
Some posters on this thread have had the honesty to admit their goal: complete ethnic cleansing if all Palestinians from the levant. Significant voices in Israeli leadership have said the same. Kinda funny that you call for all of the actions to accomplish that…but then say that’s not your goal. Just finish the thought. You’ll feel better, and you won’t have to keep lying to the rest of us.

There it is.  The ethnic cleansing advocacy accusation.  I love it.  I have not heard Israeli leadership use that phrase.  Only terrorists and their idiot supporters.  There is no comparison, yet you make it.

 

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Make them behave if they want aid.

I suggest they demonstrate they can behave under competent home rule leadership before granting them a fucking state.

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I suggest they demonstrate they can behave under competent home rule leadership before granting them a fucking state.

Huh. I imagined it when the national security minister said this stuff:

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said in a faction meeting on Monday.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”


He has said similar shit before and since. He’s not the only Israeli official to do so. And he’s FAR from the only Israeli to do so; many Israelis have openly advocated for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and settlement of the area by Israelis.

Like I said, I don’t have to try at all. There is a material and vocal movement in Israel to remove all Palestinians from Gaza. Their statements are out there, loud and proud. I’m not sure why that bothers you so.
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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Huh. I imagined it when the national security minister said this stuff:

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said in a faction meeting on Monday.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”


He has said similar shit before and since. He’s not the only Israeli official to do so. And he’s FAR from the only Israeli to do so; many Israelis have openly advocated for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and settlement of the area by Israelis.

Like I said, I don’t have to try at all. There is a material and vocal movement in Israel to remove all Palestinians from Gaza. Their statements are out there, loud and proud. I’m not sure why that bothers you so.

I mean Bibi has literally said the words out loud. He doesn't wanna know, you're not gonna get through that fat head.

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38 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

There it is.  The ethnic cleansing advocacy accusation.  I love it.  I have not heard Israeli leadership use that phrase.  Only terrorists and their idiot supporters.  There is no comparison, yet you make it.

 

I suggest they demonstrate they can behave under competent home rule leadership before granting them a fucking state.

The American Colonies went through a lot less, and we revolted.

Building a state with competent home rule requires a bit of time and some fucking breathing room. Maybe the ability to make your own trade deals? Purchase your own food?

I get it. You don't want the Palestinians to disappear. You just want them to disappear from Gaza/West Bank.

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30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Huh. I imagined it when the national security minister said this stuff:

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said in a faction meeting on Monday.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”


He has said similar shit before and since. He’s not the only Israeli official to do so. And he’s FAR from the only Israeli to do so; many Israelis have openly advocated for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and settlement of the area by Israelis.

Like I said, I don’t have to try at all. There is a material and vocal movement in Israel to remove all Palestinians from Gaza. Their statements are out there, loud and proud. I’m not sure why that bothers you so.

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. No money quote refrained by millions of antisemites. No context (was this during the current invasion?). No link. You’re wasting my time. 

 

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

The American Colonies went through a lot less, and we revolted.

Building a state with competent home rule requires a bit of time and some fucking breathing room. Maybe the ability to make your own trade deals? Purchase your own food?

I get it. You don't want the Palestinians to disappear. You just want them to disappear from Gaza/West Bank.

Terrible analogy. Did we lob millions of rockets over the Atlantic?  Did we have able leadership?

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I’m on my phone, dude. You can look it up. Yes, it was during the current war.

And yes, Bibi has used the exact term (“from the river to the sea”).

FFS, now you’re just being a dishonest piece of shit. Israelis, including Israeli leadership, have plainly called for Palestinians to be gone from Gaza. You know…the literal definition of ethnic cleansing. And you contort yourself by saying “ahh, but that was on a Tuesday, and today’s a Friday!”, or some similar stupid shit. Jesus.

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3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m on my phone, dude. You can look it up. Yes, it was during the current war.

And yes, Bibi has used the exact term (“from the river to the sea”).

FFS, now you’re just being a dishonest piece of shit. Israelis, including Israeli leadership, have plainly called for Palestinians to be gone from Gaza. You know…the literal definition of ethnic cleansing. And you contort yourself by saying “ahh, but that was on a Tuesday, and today’s a Friday!”, or some similar stupid shit. Jesus.

First, I didn’t know bibi said that. Second, what you posted did NOT say that. Third, his quotes at the very least make sense given itd be more humane if a temporary migration while they do what they need to do. Fourth, talk of Gaza settlements and Bibi’s quote are totally tone deaf and should be beneath them. Finally, there is zero comparison to what was quoted and the use of “from the river to the sea” phrase by the other side. Totally disingenuous at best and you’re desperate to portray Israel as the bad guy.

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4 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. No money quote refrained by millions of antisemites. No context (was this during the current invasion?). No link. You’re wasting my time. 

 

Terrible analogy. Did we lob millions of rockets over the Atlantic?  Did we have able leadership?

WE stole cannon and bombarded an English City on Colonial Soil. Ya know, Boston. We attacked a seperate colony. Ya know, Modern Canada. We raided British commerce at sea. Quite a bit. Leadership yes, able, well in some areas. There was quite a bit of speculation, corruption, etc.

Have you ever read history and sat back and thought about it? And I offered a reading suggestion, a book that is pretty Pro Israel and I agree with the premise. You did not comment on it. You also did not say if you agreed the Palestinians should not be there.

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