Israel-Hamas war thread

[Bevo 13633]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

There are plenty of foot soldiers, a lot of RPG's, mines, etc. and Southern Lebanon is not "tank country. They could hold for a bit and continue to sting Israeli forces. I mean, who other than the Norks is better of jumping through fire rings than middle eastern extremists?

 

The impact is really within the political framework of Lebanon. Cross over is will Hezbollah need to pull people out of Syria to come back and defend?

 

 

 

What do you think is Israel's and Hezbollah's next move?

[tx 3 putt 77920]

guerrilla warfare in that environment is ideal but no electronics is damn tough to mount attacks 

im thinking idf flies a fleet of drones ahead of tanks / troops to help clear a path 

[Rex Kramer 1436]

25 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

There are plenty of foot soldiers, a lot of RPG's, mines, etc. and Southern Lebanon is not "tank country. They could hold for a bit and continue to sting Israeli forces. I mean, who other than the Norks is better of jumping through fire rings than middle eastern extremists?

 

The impact is really within the political framework of Lebanon. Cross over is will Hezbollah need to pull people out of Syria to come back and defend?

 

I don’t know how many Hezbollah foot soldiers remain, but I doubt they could hold anything and any attempt to sting Israel will result in their deaths. They’re not able to communicate and probably scared shitless. 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

I wouldn't celebrate before crossing the goal line. Israeli invasions of Lebanon have not exactly gone well in the past.

[InkaUtexas 26345]

23 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I don’t know how many Hezbollah foot soldiers remain, but I doubt they could hold anything and any attempt to sting Israel will result in their deaths. They’re not able to communicate and probably scared shitless. 

They don't hold, they delay, etc. And for the hardline foot troop, non-leader type, they joined with martyrdom as a distinct possibility. It is a mistake to think they may have our same outlook on life.

Guerillas do not hold territory unless the invader does not want it or costs too much. Lots of historical examples of this. Concerning comms. There are ways around that. Lots of groups have been successful without modern comms. Sometimes it is better for them.

Can Hezbollah win? Well define winning. Can they hold Israel from taking and pacifying Lebanon? Maybe. Defeat the IDF in a batter? Nope. Shit, even if Syria decided to intercede they would be pummeled, both land and air.

Hezbollahs only real options is fire off all the rockets at once and go guerilla, or become a transient force (like the PLO) and head into Syria.

[InkaUtexas 26345]

48 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

guerrilla warfare in that environment is ideal but no electronics is damn tough to mount attacks 

im thinking idf flies a fleet of drones ahead of tanks / troops to help clear a path 

Nah, groups decentralize. Very general orders, cells operate as they can. Some will be more effective than others, but they will not defeat the IDF. 

Ukraine has shown drones are good, but they do not effectively clear a path.

[Parliament 14368]

What kinda comms did the Somali’s have in 1993.  They were all coached to go kill 1 American with whatever weapon they could find.

[tx 3 putt 77920]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Nah, groups decentralize. Very general orders, cells operate as they can. Some will be more effective than others, but they will not defeat the IDF. 

Ukraine has shown drones are good, but they do not effectively clear a path.

i have faith that idf has better drones

a swarm of mini drones and ….

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

i have faith that idf has better drones

a swarm of mini drones and ….

Still gotta take over the falafel shop and goat pen.

[tx 3 putt 77920]

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Still gotta take over the falafel shop and goat pen.

 

i’m much more curious what targets they need to take by ground force 

terrorist meeting in the premie baby icu ?

[Rex Kramer 1436]

22 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Can Hezbollah win?

There is no metric whereby Hez can do anything that could resemble winning. 

[Conqueeftador 123]

50 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I wouldn't celebrate before crossing the goal line. Israeli invasions of Lebanon have not exactly gone well in the past.

Sorry for your loss. 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

1 hour ago, Conqueeftador said:

Sorry for your loss. 

You seem to be confused.

[Bevo 13633]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You seem to be confused.

 

Maybe, maybe not, but it was pretty damn funny either way.

[Brian Fantana 6704]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

Maybe, maybe not, but it was pretty damn funny either way.

Agreed! But my point was I hope that Israel has learned from the mistakes of the past. Previous invasions of Lebanon haven't yielded good results. So far, they're killing it going after Hezbollah leadership. It's still possible to fumble this, though, so they need to keep executing.

[Foosters 17918]

21 hours ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

If I wanted to engage your bullshit, I'd go to the appropriate board and thread and do so. Why is that unreasonable, and hard for people like you to understand?

I don't want to ignore them. I want a good, informational, thread, to not be shit on by childish trolls.

Pussies are the people who coddle and indulge the behavior of vain, narcissistic, trolls who needlessly shit on things for dopamine hits.

Whining about non-CR opinions because the people behind them post in the CR? Lmao.

[Bevo 13633]

2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Whining about non-CR opinions because the people behind them post in the CR? Lmao.

 

All opinions are borderline CR to CR - that is the reason @immamac tries keeping DT for news only. As for arguing with CR personalities, my issue is that it is like arguing with attorneys - no one has time for that shit - and no one has the desire for that shit.

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

There is no metric whereby Hez can do anything that could resemble winning. 

foolish believer in conventional warfare theory vs. Guerillas. They always win. They win just by surviving. You are thinking of conventional means, cities falling, postage stamps being made to celebrate some crap.

There might be a few that did not win by disappearing, most during colonialism (Mao Mao, etc.)  but they won since the target of the insurgency lost. No more theory, going to stick to the news.

Shit continues in Gaza. No hostages released today. Humanitarian conditions suck (UN), President Abbas spoke at the UN. Said generations of Palestinians in Gaza fucked.

 

 

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

i’m much more curious what targets they need to take by ground force 

terrorist meeting in the premie baby icu ?

Kill as many as they can and block any incoming supplies. There is no building IDF can take that marks the end of it.

[Rex Kramer 1436]

26 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

foolish believer in conventional warfare theory vs. Guerillas. They always win. They win just by surviving. You are thinking of conventional means, cities falling, postage stamps being made to celebrate some crap.

There might be a few that did not win by disappearing, most during colonialism (Mao Mao, etc.)  but they won since the target of the insurgency lost. No more theory, going to stick to the news.

Shit continues in Gaza. No hostages released today. Humanitarian conditions suck (UN), President Abbas spoke at the UN. Said generations of Palestinians in Gaza fucked.

 

 

I don’t view this like you might view Vietnam. Again, there is zero metric by which hezbollah is winning. Are some foot soldiers winning by surviving?  No. 

[InkaUtexas 26345]

ISIS in Iraq is still there. They are not defeated. You have to defeat an enemy for true victory. It is why the US cannot ever win the war on extreme terrorism. Does this mean don't fight it? Fuck no. Hammer them.

But it is not victory.

What is victory over Hezbollah and Hamas in your opinion? How does Israel get there? Happy to move this to the CR so this thread can be only news.

 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

ISIS in Iraq is still there. They are not defeated. You have to defeat an enemy for true victory. It is why the US cannot ever win the war on extreme terrorism. Does this mean don't fight it? Fuck no. Hammer them.

But it is not victory.

What is victory over Hezbollah and Hamas in your opinion? How does Israel get there? Happy to move this to the CR so this thread can be only news.

 

This topic would be so much better if certain posters read just one or two history books after high school.

I was trying to hammer this point home in the CR thread months ago about how defeating (perhaps destroying is a better word) terrorist organizations militarily is next to impossible for the reasons you're outlining here, in addition to some other stuff. It just doesn't sink in to some people that direct, even overwhelming force can't end every conflict.

[Brisketexan 105569]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

ISIS in Iraq is still there. They are not defeated. You have to defeat an enemy for true victory. It is why the US cannot ever win the war on extreme terrorism. Does this mean don't fight it? Fuck no. Hammer them.

But it is not victory.

What is victory over Hezbollah and Hamas in your opinion? How does Israel get there? Happy to move this to the CR so this thread can be only news.

 

These.  Those groups may not be winning, but they also are not defeated.  It's kind of like if you don't kill all cancer cells so that it never comes back -- you didn't cure your cancer.  Those cancerous cells avoid defeat simply by existing, holding out, and waiting for a later opportunity to flare up and cause serious damage.

Again, doesn't mean that you don't keep bashing them with chemo -- knocking cancer back to "just background shit" is pretty win-ish, especially when compared to "letting the cancer flourish and devastate your body."  What Israel has done with Hezbollah in the past two weeks has been incredible.  It has knocked that cancer WAY back.  But defeating Hezbollah entirely may well be impossible; that is often the case with insurgent movements that are clandestine and guerilla in nature.

[Rex Kramer 1436]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

These.  Those groups may not be winning, but they also are not defeated.  It's kind of like if you don't kill all cancer cells so that it never comes back -- you didn't cure your cancer.  Those cancerous cells avoid defeat simply by existing, holding out, and waiting for a later opportunity to flare up and cause serious damage.

Again, doesn't mean that you don't keep bashing them with chemo -- knocking cancer back to "just background shit" is pretty win-ish, especially when compared to "letting the cancer flourish and devastate your body."  What Israel has done with Hezbollah in the past two weeks has been incredible.  It has knocked that cancer WAY back.  But defeating Hezbollah entirely may well be impossible; that is often the case with insurgent movements that are clandestine and guerilla in nature.

Your killing of cancer cells comment is at complete odds with your persistent need to criticize how Israel conducts business in Gaza. Hamas and Hezbollah aren’t coming back in their current forms. They’re done and never to return. It may take a little more fighting particularly in Lebanon. But the two groups are very much defeated or are long on the road to total defeat.

Will groups rise up and replace them?  I’m quite certain of it. Will Iran continue to prop such groups up?  It depends on what Israel decides to do next, but probably. 

Edited September 30 by Rex Kramer

[InkaUtexas 26345]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Your killing of cancer cells comment is at complete odds with your persistent need to criticize how Israel conducts business in Gaza. Hamas and Hezbollah aren’t coming back in their current forms. They’re done and never to return. It may take a little more fighting particularly in Lebanon. But the two groups are very much defeated or are long on the road to total defeat.

Will groups rise up and replace them?  I’m quite certain of it. Will Iran continue to prop such groups up?  It depends on what Israel decides to do next, but probably. 

What should Israel do to win? Rex, I am on your side in the goal, just not in the methods used in Gaza. Have I said anything about the attacks in Beruit? Nope.

 

[Brisketexan 105569]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

Your killing of cancer cells comment is at complete odds with your persistent need to criticize how Israel conducts business in Gaza.

I mean.....except that take is totally wrong?

I have -- FUCKING REPEATEDLY, to the point that I can only conclude that you are illiterate -- said that Israel attacking Hamas leadership and fighters is justified and good.  Same goes for Hezbollah.  And yeah, actually, the cancer fighting analogy is pretty fucking spot on here.  Because I'm all for targeted therapies -- surgical tumor removal, targeted radiation, chemo therapies that kill the cancer cells while doing as little damage to healthy cells as possible.  I have a problem with an approach of "if a little radiation is good, then LOTS of radiation is better!" as a cancer therapy.

I want Israel to fight cancer.  I don't want Israel to kill everything and everyone within 5 miles of the tumor to do so.  The fact that you cannot/refuse to see that distinction is fucked up.

4 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Will groups rise up and replace them?  I’m quite certain of it. Will Iran continue to prop such groups up?  It depends on what Israel decides to do next, but probably. 

And it's like you can ALMOST see the issue here.

If I spend all of my political capital, and conduct a brutal and indiscriminate campaign to "kill cancer".....and the end result is that the cancer just comes back....did I actually accomplish very much?

Israel's goal SHOULD be to kill as much of the cancer as possible to force it to the background, while at the SAME time not devastating the overall body and creating conditions for the cancer to fire back up in the future, nastier than ever.  You're so focused on how awesome it is to blast cancer cells (and in the process, taking out the entire lung) that you pay no attention to the damage caused, or the long-term prognosis created.  Think holistically, and with a long-term strategy.

[Brisketexan 105569]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

What should Israel do to win? Rex, I am on your side in the goal, just not in the methods used in Gaza. Have I said anything about the attacks in Beruit? Nope.

 

And this.  For fuck's sake, if Rex would take a goddamned pill, breathe, and look at the big picture, he'd realize (much to his surprise) that we generally share his goal (well, except to the extent that his goal is "exterminate all Palestinians from the Levant," which I still don't think we can take off the table for him - he says he doesn't want it....he just wants to keep doing everything possible to make it happen).  The attacks in Beirut and Lebanon have been masterful.  And yes, there's even been collateral damage, real damage, but the balance is much more favorable in those cases.

[Rex Kramer 1436]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

(well, except to the extent that his goal is "exterminate all Palestinians from the Levant," which I still don't think we can take off the table for him - he says he doesn't want it....he just wants to keep doing everything possible to make it happen).

You keep saying this and you have no basis for it. I agree that what they’ve done up north is significantly more appealing that what has occurred down south. I’m not going to opine on what has occurred in Gaza because I’m still forming an opinion here. I’ll just say, so you’ll finally shut up about it, is that it’s very unfortunate and tone deaf. 

To my point, yes, you can totally defeat organizations and have their charred remnants rise up like a phoenix and form new organizations. That absolutely will happen. So the cancer analogy is poor; it’s always going to come back and there’s no amount of tactful and precise killing that Israel can do to avoid it. But it doesn’t make what Israel has done to Hamas or Hezbollah any less necessary or noble. 

[Brisketexan 105569]

5 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

To my point, yes, you can totally defeat organizations and have their charred remnants rise up like a phoenix and form new organizations. That absolutely will happen. So the cancer analogy is poor; it’s always going to come back and there’s no amount of tactful and precise killing that Israel can do to avoid it.

You can conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't create an entire generation of people who will become cancer/terrorists when they come of age.  "Fighting terrorism by creating more people who will be terrorists when they come of age" is a counterproductive strategy.  And I am glad to see you at least describing such a strategy as "unfortunate and tone deaf."  But take it one step further -- in the long run, a strategy like that is actually AGAINST Israel's interests.

I agree that no matter what, even if the war in Gaza had been conducted perfectly, there were always going to be future "brush fires" of terrorism and terrorist movements.  I think that what Israel has done, though, means that those will flare up like full-on forest fires.  Raging cancers, if you will, instead of isolated tumors that can easily be excised.

Oh, and Hezbollah is different in a lot of respects: its leadership is much more reachable, Israel has done a MASTERFUL job in taking that leadership out and, most importantly, it is almost a "state actor" (it is arguably a wing of the Iranian military).  It can be fought differently, squashed differently, and Israel is doing both pretty well.  But it should continue to be thoughtful and strategic if it goes forward with any serious ground invasion.  Letting yourself get sucked into a situation where you take needless casualties, become enraged, and start leveling civilian areas indiscriminately, unnecessarily turns the war against Hezbollah into Gaza 2: Super Shitty Boogaloo.

[Anastasis 23498]

13 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I’m not going to opine on what has occurred in Gaza because I’m still forming an opinion here.

Yes, we all get it by now. You have absolutely no moral compass. 

[Rex Kramer 1436]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You can conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't create an entire generation of people who will become cancer/terrorists when they come of age.  "Fighting terrorism by creating more people who will be terrorists when they come of age" is a counterproductive strategy. 

Impossible. 

[InkaUtexas 26345]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Impossible. 

What is?

[Brisketexan 105569]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

Impossible.  Because Palestinians are inherently savages.  The only way to deal with them is to kill them.

FIF the conclusion that you didn't finish.

When you say it's impossible to deal with Palestinians without all of them turning into terrorists, those are the exact things you are saying.  They are inherently terrorists.  And thus, the only rational response is to kill them all.

[Rex Kramer 1436]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Hezbollah is different in a lot of respects: its leadership is much more reachable

?  Really?  Hamas is self-contained on your land. Hezbollah is in another country and can move somewhat freely (until recently) to the north, east and northeast. They’re a much more formidable opponent. 

[Brisketexan 105569]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

?  Really?  Hamas is self-contained on your land. Hezbollah is in another country and can move somewhat freely (until recently) to the north, east and northeast. They’re a much more formidable opponent. 

Perhaps you missed the part where material Hamas leadership is in Qatar.  That's what I was referring to.

I agree that Hezbollah was technically more formidable . . . but the things that made them formidable (significant weapons systems) also made them more vulnerable.  The more you become like a regular military, the easier you are to blow up.

[Rex Kramer 1436]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

FIF the conclusion that you didn't finish.

When you say it's impossible to deal with Palestinians without all of them turning into terrorists, those are the exact things you are saying.  They are inherently terrorists.  And thus, the only rational response is to kill them all.

Okay Ana. That’s how you desperately want me to respond. I’ll ignore you said that. It’s impossible to get rid of the leading terrorist organizations of the day and not have new ones sprout up. Because terrorists gon’ terrorist. Has nothing to do with Palestinians. 

To my point, do you honestly think there won’t be another Iranian-funded Lebanese or Syrian group with the primary purpose to wreak havoc on Israel?  Even though the Israelis were delicate with their Hezbollah destruction (relative to Hamas)?  I don’t at all, and their destruction had no direct tie to Palestinians. 

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Perhaps you missed the part where material Hamas leadership is in Qatar.  That's what I was referring to.

I agree that Hezbollah was technically more formidable . . . but the things that made them formidable (significant weapons systems) also made them more vulnerable.  The more you become like a regular military, the easier you are to blow up.

And if you blow them up you get to take over their chain of falafel stands. That is the true victory here.

And Rex, I don't think Hamas' leadership within Gaza is easy to get to. Otherwise the IDF would have already done it. Since they could not they are bombing the shit out of it. 

[Brisketexan 105569]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And if you blow them up you get to take over their chain of falafel stands. That is the true victory here.

Why everyone can't just fucking chill and be happy making and eating delicious falafel and baba ganoush and maqlubeh and pita and hummus and shakshuka....FFS, people.  Chill, revel in the fact that y'all all make delicious grub, pull up a chair, and enjoy.

[InkaUtexas 26345]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Why everyone can't just fucking chill and be happy making and eating delicious falafel and baba ganoush and maqlubeh and pita and hummus and shakshuka....FFS, people.  Chill, revel in the fact that y'all all make delicious grub, pull up a chair, and enjoy.

Don't forget the bad ass olives and tea. mmmmmmm, pomegranate tea with honey.

[Armybrat 40987]

7 hours ago, MinerProphet said:

9 days. Pretty, pretty pretty good.

 

Well, that “circle” certainly got narrowed and downsized.

Is Vegas putting out any odds on the new guy?

[Brian Fantana 6704]

10 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

It’s impossible to get rid of the leading terrorist organizations of the day and not have new ones sprout up. Because terrorists gon’ terrorist.

Shit like this is so funny, because it's always the same 3-4 posters that post absolutely pudding brained nonsense like this in this thread and then run to immamac when the "CR posters" "ruin the thread" by offering painfully obvious rebuttals like "Hey, maybe if you altered the environment that caused the terrorists to exist in the first place, then they wouldn't come back - see, for example, the IRA".

[MinerProphet 71]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Shit like this is so funny, because it's always the same 3-4 posters that post absolutely pudding brained nonsense like this in this thread and then run to immamac when the "CR posters" "ruin the thread" by offering painfully obvious rebuttals like "Hey, maybe if you altered the environment that caused the terrorists to exist in the first place, then they wouldn't come back - see, for example, the IRA".

"Maybe if you altered the environment that caused the terrorists to exist in the first place..." 

+

"Hezbollah has long held the destruction of Israel as a core aim (Nasrallah infamously described the country as a cancer)." 

=

Get rid of Israel if you don't want terrorists around with the stated existential reason for existance being "get rid of Israel".

Do you see how that doesn't really make sense? Especially considering that the "cake is baked" in that you have to work with the pieces as they are aligned on the chessboard today, you can't start the game over.

[Conqueeftador 123]

Sounds we leaked Israeli plans. Not cool. 
 

Translation 

The ministers of the political-security cabinet officially approved during the meeting the next phase of the operation in Lebanon.
One of the ministers asked Defense Minister Galant why a report referred to the start of the maneuver even before the discussion and official approval. Galant explained that "they had to refer to publications in foreign media".

[Scary Stranger 1715]

45 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Impossible. 

 

12 minutes ago, MinerProphet said:

"Maybe if you altered the environment that caused the terrorists to exist in the first place..." 

+

"Hezbollah has long held the destruction of Israel as a core aim (Nasrallah infamously described the country as a cancer)." 

=

Get rid of Israel if you don't want terrorists around with the stated existential reason for existance being "get rid of Israel".

Do you see how that doesn't really make sense? Especially considering that the "cake is baked" in that you have to work with the pieces as they are aligned on the chessboard today, you can't start the game over.

Yep. There is no altering of the environment that will appease the enemies of Israel other than the destruction of the country and the death of all the Jews. 

[Rex Kramer 1436]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Why everyone can't just fucking chill and be happy making and eating delicious falafel and baba ganoush and maqlubeh and pita and hummus and shakshuka....FFS, people.  Chill, revel in the fact that y'all all make delicious grub, pull up a chair, and enjoy.

Good to see you’ve shifted from “this guy is clearly racist against Palestinians” to cracking dumbass jokes. 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

Just now, MinerProphet said:

"Maybe if you altered the environment that caused the terrorists to exist in the first place..." 

+

"Hezbollah has long held the destruction of Israel as a core aim (Nasrallah infamously described the country as a cancer)." 

=

Get rid of Israel if you don't want terrorists around with the stated existential reason for existance being "get rid of Israel".

Do you see how that doesn't really make sense? Especially considering that the "cake is baked" in that you have to work with the pieces as they are aligned on the chessboard today, you can't start the game over.

Hezbollah exists as a direct response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Decapitating their leadership is a good thing, and Israel has been doing a good job of doing so with these targeted operations. Yet another invasion of Lebanon would likely ultimately be counterproductive.

[Hitch 54]

What I can’t understand is where exactly is Iran now that shit has gotten real and how long it will take these proxies to realize they’re just cannon fodder. 

[Brian Fantana 6704]

8 minutes ago, Scary Stranger said:

Yep. There is no altering of the environment that will appease the enemies of Israel other than the destruction of the country and the death of all the Jews. 

Again, this is just a lazy, unserious, blanket justification for anything Israel does. It's the same kind of tepid bullshit diarrhea we had to listen to coming out of George W. Bush's mouth to justify the Iraq war.

Not a single person in this thread is saying they shouldn't go after Hezbollah, just that if their goal is to actually end that organization, doing the exact same shit that caused it to form in the first place might not be a great idea.

[Brisketexan 105569]

9 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Good to see you’ve shifted from “this guy is clearly racist against Palestinians” to cracking dumbass jokes. 

I assure you, delicious food is never a dumbass joke.

And....there's actually a whole theological angle about "the table," it's connection to our shared humanity, sacrifice, and peace - it's a lot more than I can or should try to cover here (actual books have been written on it).  It's not as simple as "peace and love through tasty food," but....it kinda is.  For example, even for a religion/culture that I presume you despise, hospitality of the table is a central.  Of course.....much like the virtuous and foundational elements of other major faiths (e.g., Christianity, Judaism), it has taken a fucking BEATING and with respect to foreigners, observed mostly in the breach.  But, that doesn't make it any less theologically sound or important.  Just like Matthew 25:40's admonition "as you do for the least of these, you do for Me" is utterly shat upon by modern "Christianity"...which doesn't make it any less true.

So, yeah....focusing on a path where we can all break bread together is, ultimately, the only path that can produce a lasting peace.  But we are a long, long, long fucking way from that. 

Edited September 30 by Brisketexan

[Brisketexan 105569]

5 minutes ago, Hitch said:

What I can’t understand is where exactly is Iran now that shit has gotten real and how long it will take these proxies to realize they’re just cannon fodder. 

Iran has, functionally, had their bluff called.  And they don't have shit for cards.