Israel-Hamas war thread

[Rex Kramer 1207]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Just to frame this a bit differently, a sovereign nation launched 108 high value strategic war assets at another state’s territory. This was in response to a targeted attack on a non-state actor on the territory of a third state.  
 

Relevant also to note that the third state does not border Iran, and that Hezbollah is useful to Iran only as a platform to advance Iranian interests vis-a-vis the Palestine issue and potentially as a deterrent to keep Israel from striking back at Iran for doing— shit like this. You cannot credibly say that Iran’s core security is affected by strikes on Hezbollah. It’s even more ludicrous than claiming that Russia’s core security was affected by Ukraine battling LNR/DNR militias.

Bottom line is that a 108 ballistic missile attack on a nation’s air bases IS ALREADY ALL OUT FUCKING WAR. Only in the insane discourse of Israel is there a risk of Israel “escalating” from that and in fact they are showing amazing restraint already.  If Belarus launches 100 ballistic missiles at Polish defense installations no one is writing stupid headlines like “will this lead to all out war?” 

Because the very strong narrative on Israel is they don’t exercise restraint, particularly in the last year. Iran fucked up, incredibly. What they did makes zero sense. This was different than April’s drone show, and I expect some sort of Israeli response after sundown Friday. 

[Brisketexan 103184]

3 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

This is a remarkable euphemism. 

Look, do we really need to get into the nicknames we have for our penis around here?  Yeah, I thought not.

[956 Worldwide 33958]

1 minute ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

This is a remarkable euphemism. 

 Just trying to frame what happened— Iran launched a whole bunch of medium range liquid fueled ballistic missiles.  These are among the most expensive and valuable assets available to their armed forces and a pillar of any war planning scenario they have as well as their deterrence posture. 
 

Asking “could this lead to war” is sort of like asking a woman who is not your wife mid-pump, “hey, is this a full-blown affair?” 

[Brisketexan 103184]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

Asking “could this lead to war” is sort of like asking a woman who is not your wife mid-pump, “hey, is this a full-blown affair?” 

Dude....that's why you don't ASK.

[52-80 18967]

There is no fucking way that the music festival attack happened 1.0 years ago. October 2023. 

Is it just me being old as shit or doesnt that seem like an event from 3/4 months back? 

[bolverk 28892]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Just to frame this a bit differently, a sovereign nation launched 108 high value strategic war assets at another state’s territory. This was in response to a targeted attack on a non-state actor on the territory of a third state.  
 

Relevant also to note that the third state does not border Iran, and that Hezbollah is useful to Iran only as a platform to advance Iranian interests vis-a-vis the Palestine issue and potentially as a deterrent to keep Israel from striking back at Iran for doing— shit like this. You cannot credibly say that Iran’s core security is affected by strikes on Hezbollah. It’s even more ludicrous than claiming that Russia’s core security was affected by Ukraine battling LNR/DNR militias.

Bottom line is that a 108 ballistic missile attack on a nation’s air bases IS ALREADY ALL OUT FUCKING WAR. Only in the insane discourse of Israel is there a risk of Israel “escalating” from that and in fact they are showing amazing restraint already.  If Belarus launches 100 ballistic missiles at Polish defense installations no one is writing stupid headlines like “will this lead to all out war?” 

I'm not sure what kind of argument you think I was trying to make by posting that NYTimes analysis because what you've stated here is actually my thoughts on this. Earlier, there were other posters arguing here or in the other CR thread that Israel would show restraint in their response to Iran's attack. I think the case is just the opposite and believe that Israel will go at them with full force, justifiably, by the way.

In my previous comment, I thought I made it clear that this Iranian attack was different in that a) it wasn't half-assed like the other one and b) Iran is inserting itself into a fight between Israel and Hezbollah (yes, I know they're a proxy, but Iran could keep their hands unbloodied by staying out of it). Last time, Israel simply gave Iran a cursory response because everyone knew it was all a theatrical performance. This time will be different.

Bold statement, I know.

[atomheartbevo 88753]

 

 

[InkaUtexas 24831]

A bit of proof shit is not going to be easy for the IDF.

Israel’s military says eight of its soldiers have been killed in combat in southern Lebanon, its first losses since the start of the ground invasion against the armed group Hezbollah.

Most were commandos from the elite Egoz and Golani Reconnaissance units.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czxgkrv9j7no

[Hagbard Celine 10498]

times of india

Iran launched ballistic missiles at Israel, forcing millions into bomb shelters. Israel began limited ground operations in Lebanon against Hezbollah. Most missiles were intercepted. Israel

The Middle East edged nearer to a wider regional conflict following Iran's launch of ballistic missiles at Israel on Tuesday, sending almost 10 million people into bomb shelters as projectiles and interceptors exploded in the skies above.
Israel said it has initiated restricted ground operations in Lebanon, focusing on the Iran-supported Hezbollah militia.
According to Israeli sources, many of the missiles were intercepted, and US officials said that American destroyers contributed to Israel's defense.

Iran claimed that the majority of its missiles reached their intended targets. No immediate reports of casualties were available.
The attack came five months after a strike in April that was the first ever direct Iranian strike on Israel. Ballistic missiles are an important part of the arsenal at Tehran's disposal.
To better understand the situation, it is crucial to examine Iran's ballistic missile arsenal and the defensive capabilities of Israeli forces.

How dangerous is Iran’s ballistic missile arsenal

Iran possesses a significantly larger arsenal of artillery and Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS) compared to Israel. However, these weapon systems would need to be deployed near Israel's borders to be effective, as traditional artillery and MLRS with a range of 70-80 km cannot reach Israel from their current positions.

Iran is also known to have a substantial number of short, medium, and long-range ballistic missiles capable of striking Israel. According to a 2021 report by the Missile Threat Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Tehran has thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles with a variety of ranges.
Ballistic missiles follow a trajectory that takes them outside or near the limits of Earth's atmosphere before the warhead separates from the rocket and descends onto its target. An analysis of Iran's extensive ballistic missile arsenal, considering guidance systems and range, reveals a significant threat to Israel, as Iran is believed to possess at least five different long-range ballistic missiles that can reach Israel from Iranian territory.
Iran's Ballistic missile system includes primarily short-range and medium-range missiles, such as the Fateh, Sajjil, Shahab, Qiam, and Khorramshar. The short-range Shahab-2, with a range of up to 500 km, has been part of Iran's arsenal since 1998, while the Fateh-313, another short-range missile with a similar range, was incorporated into Iran's defense system in 2015.

Medium-range missiles, capable of traveling 1,000 to 2,000 km, were introduced into Iran's defense program in 2003 with the Shahab-3. These missiles use liquid propellant, carry warheads weighing 760 to 1,200 kg, and can be launched from mobile launchers and silos. According to Iran Watch, the latest variants of the Shahab-3, the Ghadr and Emad missiles, have accuracies within 300 meters (almost 1,000 feet) of their intended targets.

Iranian media reported that Tehran used a new missile, the Fateh-1, in Tuesday's attacks on Israel. This 'hypersonic' missile travels at Mach 5, or five times the speed of sound (6,100 km per hour).

Israel's defence mechanism: Beyond the Iron Dome

Israel's nuclear capabilities have been a topic of speculation for decades, as the nation maintains a policy of ambiguity regarding its nuclear arsenal. While the country has not officially confirmed or denied possessing nuclear weapons, it is widely assumed that Israel has a substantial nuclear stockpile.
According to estimates from the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, Israel's nuclear arsenal likely consists of approximately 90 plutonium-based nuclear warheads. Furthermore, the country is believed to have produced sufficient plutonium to potentially manufacture between 100 and 200 nuclear weapons.
Israel has a multi-layered missile defense system designed to intercept various types of threats, from ballistic missiles that reach high altitudes to low-flying cruise missiles and rockets.
The Iron Dome, which has garnered significant attention for its effectiveness, is the lowest tier of Israel's missile defense and is primarily used to counter incoming rockets and artillery weapons. However, the Iron Dome was not the system employed to combat the ballistic missiles launched on Tuesday night, CNN reported.
The next level of defense is David's Sling, a collaborative effort between Israel's RAFAEL Advanced Defense System and US defense giant Raytheon. This system protects against short- and medium-range threats, utilizing Stunner and SkyCeptor kinetic hit-to-kill interceptors to neutralize targets up to 186 miles away, as reported by the Missile Threat Project at the CSIS.

Above David's Sling, Israel has the Arrow 2 and Arrow 3 systems, both developed in partnership with the United States. The Arrow 2 employs fragmentation warheads to destroy incoming ballistic missiles in their terminal phase, as they descend towards their targets in the upper atmosphere.
According to the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance, the Arrow 2 has a range of 56 miles and a maximum altitude of 32 miles, representing an upgrade from the US Patriot missile defenses Israel previously used in this role.

The Arrow 3, on the other hand, utilizes hit-to-kill technology to intercept incoming ballistic missiles in space before they reenter the atmosphere on their way to targets.

[Willfully Horn 7820]

Oh-noes! Political poster banned for the election for refusing to hot take in the CR.

Edited October 3 by Willfully Horn

[Brian Fantana 6590]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

Oh-noes! Political poster banned for the election despite refusing to hot take in the CR.

[Willfully Horn 7820]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

If those posts are there, where they ought to be, I’ve missed them.

Edited October 3 by Willfully Horn

[Ghost of LL 15225]

I don’t know whether this goes here or the Ukraine thread, but whatever:

 

[Chad Fuck 17274]

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

I don’t know whether this goes here or the Ukraine thread, but whatever:

 

I was hoping Israel might take out the factories where the Iranians manufacture munitions like the Shahed or perhaps the Caspian ports from which they're shipped.  But this seems like a good intermediate step.  

I mean, if they're going to use our weaponry to take stuff out, we might as well both benefit from it.

[Ghost of LL 15225]

1 hour ago, Chad Fuck said:

I was hoping Israel might take out the factories where the Iranians manufacture munitions like the Shahed or perhaps the Caspian ports from which they're shipped.  But this seems like a good intermediate step.  

I mean, if they're going to use our weaponry to take stuff out, we might as well both benefit from it.

I suspect this is part of the battlefield-shaping phase of Israel's coming aerial offensive against Iran.

If Israel wants to attack Iran, it doesn't exactly have to go across Syrian and Iraqi airspace, but it sure makes it easier.  But Syria has a whole bunch of Russian air-defense weapons systems, including Pantsir-1s and S-300s.  Now, Syria has a lot less ammunition for those air-defense systems.  And that makes a route to Iran over Syria a whole lot easier.

And by the way, if you're Iraq right now, you may just want to declare your airspace open.

[PTINS 3412]

17 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Just to frame this a bit differently, a sovereign nation launched 108 high value strategic war assets at another state’s territory. This was in response to a targeted attack on a non-state actor on the territory of a third state.  
 

Relevant also to note that the third state does not border Iran, and that Hezbollah is useful to Iran only as a platform to advance Iranian interests vis-a-vis the Palestine issue and potentially as a deterrent to keep Israel from striking back at Iran for doing— shit like this. You cannot credibly say that Iran’s core security is affected by strikes on Hezbollah. It’s even more ludicrous than claiming that Russia’s core security was affected by Ukraine battling LNR/DNR militias.

Bottom line is that a 108 ballistic missile attack on a nation’s air bases IS ALREADY ALL OUT FUCKING WAR. Only in the insane discourse of Israel is there a risk of Israel “escalating” from that and in fact they are showing amazing restraint already.  If Belarus launches 100 ballistic missiles at Polish defense installations no one is writing stupid headlines like “will this lead to all out war?” 

In talks with the Israeli government, the White House was expected to point to the relatively light damage caused by the Iranian missile attack on Tuesday and urge Israeli restraint, the U.S. official said. These pleas were expected to have little impact, the official added.

This wasn't proxies crossing the border on motorcycles with machine guns. A simple way of looking at this is, "What should the Israeli response be if none of the incoming Iranian missiles were shot down and all of them hit their targets in Tel Aviv?" 

That is what Israel's response should be. Anything other than civilian targets is fair game.

FAFO

[Ghost of LL 15225]

33 minutes ago, PTINS said:

In talks with the Israeli government, the White House was expected to point to the relatively light damage caused by the Iranian missile attack on Tuesday and urge Israeli restraint, the U.S. official said. These pleas were expected to have little impact, the official added.

This wasn't proxies crossing the border on motorcycles with machine guns. A simple way of looking at this is, "What should the Israeli response be if none of the incoming Iranian missiles were shot down and all of them hit their targets in Tel Aviv?" 

That is what Israel's response should be. Anything other than civilian targets is fair game.

FAFO

Well I hate to say this, but all of our restraint-urging is pretty pointless if we're not going to impose any consequences for non-restraint.  And so far, we haven't shown any inclination toward imposing any consequences.  

The closest we have come is not vetoing a pretty weak-kneed resolution in the UNSC after Israel went in and wantonly killed a few dozen thousand civilians in Gaza.  But notwithstanding their non-restraint in Gaza and Lebanon, we haven't done anything toward cutting our material support for Israel.  And with our current political situation, it is a little difficult to imagine us doing so.

So the leverage we have with Israel is pretty non-existent.  Who really cares what Israel's response should be, given that we don't have the present ability to impact it in one direction or the other?  At this point, it's just a "que sirah, sirah" situation for the United States.

[bolverk 28892]

21 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

At this point, it's just a "que sirah, sirah" situation for the United States.

One of my favorite grape varietals.

[Brian Fantana 6590]

57 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

And so far, we haven't shown any inclination toward imposing any consequences.

We hinted that fewer billions may be coming and Netanyahu got on the next plane to come and scold Congress and they took it like South Austin's mom.

[MagicSoccerSpray 1725]

 

[956 Worldwide 33958]

Everyone knows I deeply celebrate every piece of ordinance that falls on Russians. I’d temper this take a bit.  Just like us, the Russians treat bombs falling on forward-deployed positions thousands of miles from Russia in a conflict zone VERY differently than bombs falling on strategic bases in the homeland.  
 

Iran attacked us in Al-Assad in 2020 and we didn’t respond as if they shot missiles at Dyess.  The deterrence equation is not at all the same. 

[Herbie Hancock 7270]

 
Iran attacked us in Al-Assad in 2020 and we didn’t respond as if they shot missiles at Dyess.  The deterrence equation is not at all the same. 

Eh, after Joe Allen’s moved locations and then Deutschlander Garden closed up shop I’m not sure that town is worth wasting the ordnance on.

[tx 3 putt 74778]

might want to stop announcing the new leaders …

 

[tx 3 putt 74778]

 

[Deej 76086]

9 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

 

[Not a cat 5596]

40 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

might want to stop announcing the new leaders …

 

Or follow Springfield Mafia tactic.

[Parliament 13982]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

They’re gonna have a hard time finding good candidates to backfill that job.

[huge 3767]

11 hours ago, Parliament said:

They’re gonna have a hard time finding good candidates to backfill that job.

Maybe they should try ZipRecruiter.  75% of postings receive a qualified candidate within the first day!!!

[Brisketexan 103184]

11 hours ago, Parliament said:

They’re gonna have a hard time finding good candidates to backfill that job.

 

11 minutes ago, huge said:

Maybe they should try ZipRecruiter.  75% of postings receive a qualified candidate within the first day!!!

I don't want to give Hebollah any ideas, but.....if they hired a mexican immigrant to do the job, I'm betting the whole deal would come in ahead of schedule, under budget, and they'd also learn the joy of having El Pollo Rico served at their operational meetings.  

[ChickenSandwich 9751]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I don't want to give Hebollah any ideas, but.....if they hired a mexican immigrant to do the job, I'm betting the whole deal would come in ahead of schedule, under budget, and they'd also learn the joy of having El Pollo Rico served at their operational meetings.  

Brilliant. Tacos and delicious salsas could bring world peace. 
 

 

[Deej 76086]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I don't want to give Hebollah any ideas, but.....if they hired a mexican immigrant to do the job, I'm betting the whole deal would come in ahead of schedule, under budget, and they'd also learn the joy of having El Pollo Rico served at their operational meetings.  

I thought nothing topped Palestinian chicken?

[Brisketexan 103184]

7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Brilliant. Tacos and delicious salsas could bring world peace. 
 

 

Pues, hombres....I hear you.  We COULD spend all month building new places to hide rockets and missiles and stuff.  Or....Jorge, Rogelio, and I can fix up all these buildings, redo the wiring, and set you up for some business operations and farming.  Shit, Jorgeknows all this shit, he's a real chingon -- JORGE, come over here, tell these guys about planting orange trees!  Wait...have you ever thought about growing chiles?  Orale, don't forget to get one of those barbacoa tacos on your way out.

Edited October 4 by Brisketexan

[ChickenSandwich 9751]

The tile game would be out of control. 

[ChickenSandwich 9751]

Hard to fight after a 5 taco lunch. 

[statsman 5352]

22 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

after Israel went in and wantonly killed a few dozen thousand civilians in Gaza.  

That is a pretty damning claim. I have reviewed offered data from Hamas, and from IDF, as well as reviewed data from U.S. actions in Iraq, and data from the Syrian civil war on civilian deaths, and can’t say that I agree that Israel killed dozens of thousands of civilians, let alone “wantonly”. What is the minimum number that meets the threshold of “dozens of thousands”?
 
Given that Hamas bases in civilian population centers, do you attribute any Gazan civilian deaths to them?

Can you share your calculations and sources? I am open to being persuaded. 

Edited October 4 by statsman

[Ghost of LL 15225]

7 minutes ago, statsman said:

That is a pretty damning claim. I have reviewed offered data from Hamas, and from IDF, as well as reviewed data from U.S. actions in Iraq, and data from the Syrian civil war on civilian deaths, and can’t say that I agree that Israel killed dozens of thousands of civilians, let alone “wantonly”. What is the minimum number that meets the threshold of “dozens of thousands”?
 
Given that Hamas bases in civilian population centers, do you attribute any Gazan civilian deaths to them?

Can you share your calculations and sources? I am open to being persuaded. 

The official count is 41,000, which is three-and-a-half dozen.  Now, that may be an overcount.  But it also could easily be an undercount.  Regardless, out of a pre-war population of around 2,000,000, that's a metric fuckton.

As to "wontonly," yeah--I feel pretty good about that characterization.  Israel was using 2,000 lb. bombs in heavily urbanized environments.  But apart from the bombardment, Israel prevented food and medicine from entering Gaza, and it notoriously murdered aid workers.

And yeah--"murdered" is the right word.

I do credit the fact that Hamas has taken shelter in populated areas.  But Hamas' war crimes do not justify or excuse Israel's.

[MagicSoccerSpray 1725]

12 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

The official count is 41,000,

 

"Official count" by who?

 

13 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I do credit the fact that Hamas has taken shelter in populated areas.  But Hamas' war crimes do not justify or excuse Israel's.

 

So you're ok with zero repercussions for the use of human shields? It's ok to allow terrorists to operate freely, and to attack civilians and military targets with no recourse? You think a sternly worded letter will be enough to get Hamas to fight "fairly", and to the standard you wish to hold Israel to?

[statsman 5352]

42 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

The official count is 41,000, which is three-and-a-half dozen.  Now, that may be an overcount.  But it also could easily be an undercount.  Regardless, out of a pre-war population of around 2,000,000, that's a metric fuckton.

As to "wontonly," yeah--I feel pretty good about that characterization.  Israel was using 2,000 lb. bombs in heavily urbanized environments.  But apart from the bombardment, Israel prevented food and medicine from entering Gaza, and it notoriously murdered aid workers.

And yeah--"murdered" is the right word.

I do credit the fact that Hamas has taken shelter in populated areas.  But Hamas' war crimes do not justify or excuse Israel's.

Official? By who? Hamas (who counts all dead as civilians and refuses to count any as militants)? Or the UNRWA (with members in Hamas)? (Edited- I see your source article gets the data from the Gaza Ministry of Health, in other words, Hamas)
 
The IDF says they have killed 20,000 Hamas militants. I recognize they have a bias (I assume they are possibly victim to the same counting issues the U.S. had in Vietnam). 
 
Who is official?

Should we accept both? 41,000 dead, 20,000 of them Hamas militants, and 21,000 civilian Gazans caught in the (literal) crossfire? (Which is awful, but nowhere near as bad as civilian casualties in every other urban conflict, almost as if Israel really isn’t trying to kill civilians as it pursues Hamas through the towns and cities it bases in)  

Does Israel get any credit for warning civilians to leave areas? Is that “wanton”?

I get that there is another interpretation, that Gaza is not distinct from Israel, that Israel has jurisdiction over it, and responsibility for the Gazans. Per this argument, Israel should treat the Hamas matter as more of a criminal issue, and address it more through policing, with utmost care to not harm civilians or their property. Israel rejects this argument, though.

Does Egypt get any blame for refusing admission to fleeing Palestinian civilians? Isn’t that wanton? (Definition- “deliberate and unprovoked”)

This war, I believe, is a serious issue, and I don’t think hyperbole in pursuit of a moral equivalency is helpful. 
 
As for war crimes, that is a real topic. It affects all armies. What differentiates them is how they are handled (or not handled, as the case may be). There are four U.S. servicemen, for example, imprisoned in Leavenworth, who will never again see the light of day as free men. They raped and killed a young Iraqi girl, and murdered her family to cover it up. I’m sure Iraqis think the punishment too lenient, perhaps rightfully, but there was a formal investigation and trial. As an American, I’m ashamed of these soldiers, but not ashamed of their handling and disposition. 
 
Similarly, the IDF has a formal process for investigating proposed war crimes. Do you believe it inadequate? How do you think it compares to the other belligerents in this conflict?

Edited October 4 by statsman

[Parliament 13982]

Man I can’t wait to get back to my laptop so I can put some more people on ignore.

[Foosters 17627]

1 hour ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

 

"Official count" by who?

 

 

So you're ok with zero repercussions for the use of human shields? It's ok to allow terrorists to operate freely, and to attack civilians and military targets with no recourse? You think a sternly worded letter will be enough to get Hamas to fight "fairly", and to the standard you wish to hold Israel to?

In your mind the two options are either 1) kill all the human shields, or 2) strongly worded letter?

 

[Ghost of LL 15225]

1 hour ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

 

"Official count" by who?

 

 

So you're ok with zero repercussions for the use of human shields? It's ok to allow terrorists to operate freely, and to attack civilians and military targets with no recourse? You think a sternly worded letter will be enough to get Hamas to fight "fairly", and to the standard you wish to hold Israel to?

Boy, that strawman sure took a thrashing.  Well done, you.

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Official? By who? Hamas (who counts all dead as civilians and refuses to count any as militants)? Or the UNRWA (with members in Hamas)? (Edited- I see your source article gets the data from the Gaza Ministry of Health, in other words, Hamas)
 
The IDF says they have killed 20,000 Hamas militants. I recognize they have a bias (I assume they are possibly victim to the same counting issues the U.S. had in Vietnam). 
 
Who is official?

Should we accept both? 41,000 dead, 20,000 of them Hamas militants, and 21,000 civilian Gazans caught in the (literal) crossfire? (Which is awful, but nowhere near as bad as civilian casualties in every other urban conflict, almost as if Israel really isn’t trying to kill civilians as it pursues Hamas through the towns and cities it bases in)  

Does Israel get any credit for warning civilians to leave areas? Is that “wanton”?

I get that there is another interpretation, that Gaza is not distinct from Israel, that Israel has jurisdiction over it, and responsibility for the Gazans. Per this argument, Israel should treat the Hamas matter as more of a criminal issue, and address it more through policing, with utmost care to not harm civilians or their property. Israel rejects this argument, though.

Does Egypt get any blame for refusing admission to fleeing Palestinian civilians? Isn’t that wanton? (Definition- “deliberate and unprovoked”)

This war, I believe, is a serious issue, and I don’t think hyperbole in pursuit of a moral equivalency is helpful. 
 
As for war crimes, that is a real topic. It affects all armies. What differentiates them is how they are handled (or not handled, as the case may be). There are four U.S. servicemen, for example, imprisoned in Leavenworth, who will never again see the light of day as free men. They raped and killed a young Iraqi girl, and murdered her family to cover it up. I’m sure Iraqis think the punishment too lenient, perhaps rightfully, but there was a formal investigation and trial. As an American, I’m ashamed of these soldiers, but not ashamed of their handling and disposition. 
 
Similarly, the IDF has a formal process for investigating proposed war crimes. Do you believe it inadequate? How do you think it compares to the other belligerents in this conflict?

I don't have time to get into a tit-for-tat on accounting.  As the article I posted noted, it is exceedingly difficult to count dead civilians in an active war zone.  Let it suffice to say that there are many thousands of dead civilians, which is consistent with the means and methods we've all seen Israel using.  And no, telling civilians to leave entire cities so that those cities can be leveled  is not to Israel's credit.  It smacks of collective punishment operating under the guise of civility.  

And yes--I think Israel is not doing an adequate job of policing its own war criminality.  For just one (relatively very small) example of that, see Israel's inaction in prosecuting the WFK murders.

[bolverk 28892]

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/10/04/world/israel-iran-hezbollah-lebanon/iran-anxiety-war-israel?smid=url-share

 

As Iran awaits possible retaliation strikes by Israel, its senior officials threatened to hit back with force and the armed forces were placed on highest alert. But in interviews and on social media and virtual town hall discussions, many Iranians said anxiety about an unpredictable war with Israel was spreading.

In telephone interviews with more than a dozen Iranians in different cities, men and women across political divides said they did not want or support a war with Israel or the United States. They said that their lives were already a struggle because of a terrible economy, American sanctions, corruption and oppression. War could exacerbate these hardships and plunge the country into more chaos.

“Nobody I know has prepared for a possible war,” Mahdieh, 41, an engineer in Tehran, said in a phone interview. “We are jarred. Let us have our normal life. We are not willing or want to enter a war era.” She asked that her last name not be published out of fear of retribution. She said she and her husband had prepared an emergency bag with their documents in case they needed to leave Tehran.

A message shared widely on social media by many Iranians read, “NO WAR,” and “Which bunkers will you use to shield the people? How will you repair damaged infrastructure? There is no good in war, do not lay ruin to Iran.”

On Monday Iran launched 180 ballistic missiles into Israel in retaliation for Israel’s killing of its top regional ally, the Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, that of a senior Iranian general in Beirut and that of the political leader of Hamas in Tehran. Israel has said it plans to respond by attacking Iran; its potential targets include military bases for the Revolutionary Guards Corps and oil refineries.

President Masoud Pezeshkian of Iran traveled to Qatar on Wednesday to attend a conference of the Organization of Islamic Countries, where he said that Iran did not seek war, saying “there are no winners in war, we know this.” And then he warned, “Iran will respond stronger if Israel makes the slightest mistake.”

Iran’s mission to the United Nations said in a statement that Tehran and Washington had exchanged messages through their official intermediary in Tehran in the aftermath of the attack on Israel. The statement said that Iran considered any country that assisted Israel in an attack on Iran “an accomplice and a legitimate target.”

According to two Iranian officials, who are familiar with the war planning and were not authorized to speak publicly, Iran had asked Russia for cooperation with satellite intelligence ahead of an Israeli strike.

But despite the official saber rattling, even some supporters of the government who had cheered the attacks on Israel were now confronting the realities of an all-out war that could take out infrastructure and harm the economy. Facing that possibility, some said they hoped Israel’s response would be limited and any tit-for-tat strikes would end quickly.

“We had to slap it [Israel] in the face, otherwise it would keep moving forward,” Hamidreza Jalaeipour, a prominent sociologist close to the reformist faction, said in a discussion on the application Clubhouse. “If there is a war, it will be imposed on us.”

Mr. Jalaeipour said he predicted that in the event of war the majority of Iranians would rally behind the flag to defend their country forcefully and put divisions aside.

But discontent against the government runs deep, and in waves of protests, notably in the women-led uprising in 2022, demonstrators called for the toppling of the ruling clerics. The loyalty and ideological fervor of the early years of the revolution — when even teenagers volunteered for the front lines of the eight-year war the country was then fighting with Iraq — has given way to despair and frustration with the status quo.

Some opponents of the government said they were angry that Iran had struck Israel in the first place, placing the lives and safety of its own citizens at risk for a cause outside its own borders. In anti-government protests in previous years, people have chanted, “No to Gaza, no to Lebanon, my life for Iran.”

And now that Israeli attacks seemed likely and imminent, the government had not announced any emergency provisions to prepare the population for war.

“Most of us are not happy about the interference of the Islamic Republic in the region and its so-called proxies. People do not want their national resources to be spent abroad,” said Mahan, a 50-year-old doctor in the northern city of Rasht. “The most pressing feeling these days, both for myself and the majority of friends and people I know, is the fear and worry of war.”

[ChickenSandwich 9751]

Israel attacks hezbollah in Lebanon....

 

“We had to slap it [Israel] in the face, otherwise it would keep moving forward,” Hamidreza Jalaeipour, a prominent sociologist close to the reformist faction, said in a discussion on the application Clubhouse. “If there is a war, it will be imposed on us.”

 

no, no you absolutely did not, and will probably face consequences for doing so

[tx 3 putt 74778]

 

[KYHorn 16691]

NEW

The Washington Post is out with new reporting on how the Mossad got those pagers into the hands of Hezbollah. 

Hezbollah operatives were enticed by the bulky, rugged pagers that were pitched to them because they felt they could survive battlefield conditions. 

They were waterproof and had an oversized battery that could operate for MONTHS without charging. 

The pagers also allowed encrypted messages to be sent but there was a catch. 

In order for the encrypted message to be read, the user had to press two buttons at the same time. 

That’s how the Mossad insured that most Hezbollah members had the pagers in their hands when they exploded. 

The pagers contained such a tiny amount of the explosive PETN that even if Hezbollah broke open the pagers, they wouldn’t be able to detect its presence. 

So where did the idea come from? 

The Mossad already got walkie talkies in the hands of Hezbollah back in 2015. The walkie talkies contained an extra large battery and also gave the ability of Mossad to eavesdrop on ALL Hezbollah communications, which it did for nine years. 

Gift Link: bit.ly/3NgJDNu 

Edit to add: the 2015 ones also contained explosives and those are what Israelis set off the the day after the first round.

Edited October 6 by KYHorn

[Armybrat 40477]

On 10/4/2024 at 4:16 PM, ChickenSandwich said:

“We had to slap it [Israel] in the face, otherwise it would keep moving forward,” Hamidreza Jalaeipour, a prominent sociologist close to the reformist faction, said in a discussion on the application Clubhouse. “If there is a war, it will be imposed on us.”

 

no, no you absolutely did not, and will probably face consequences for doing so

Beat me to it.

Fuck that terrorist supporter.

[Parliament 13982]

30 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

NEW

The Washington Post is out with new reporting on how the Mossad got those pagers into the hands of Hezbollah. 

Hezbollah operatives were enticed by the bulky, rugged pagers that were pitched to them because they felt they could survive battlefield conditions. 

They were waterproof and had an oversized battery that could operate for MONTHS without charging. 

The pagers also allowed encrypted messages to be sent but there was a catch. 

In order for the encrypted message to be read, the user had to press two buttons at the same time. 

That’s how the Mossad insured that most Hezbollah members had the pagers in their hands when they exploded. 

The pagers contained such a tiny amount of the explosive PETN that even if Hezbollah broke open the pagers, they wouldn’t be able to detect its presence. 

So where did the idea come from? 

The Mossad already got walkie talkies in the hands of Hezbollah back in 2015. The walkie talkies contained an extra large battery and also gave the ability of Mossad to eavesdrop on ALL Hezbollah communications, which it did for nine years. 

Gift Link: bit.ly/3NgJDNu 

My God that's glorious.

[Armybrat 40477]

41 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

NEW

The Washington Post is out with new reporting on how the Mossad got those pagers into the hands of Hezbollah. 

Hezbollah operatives were enticed by the bulky, rugged pagers that were pitched to them because they felt they could survive battlefield conditions. 

They were waterproof and had an oversized battery that could operate for MONTHS without charging. 

The pagers also allowed encrypted messages to be sent but there was a catch. 

In order for the encrypted message to be read, the user had to press two buttons at the same time. 

That’s how the Mossad insured that most Hezbollah members had the pagers in their hands when they exploded. 

The pagers contained such a tiny amount of the explosive PETN that even if Hezbollah broke open the pagers, they wouldn’t be able to detect its presence. 

So where did the idea come from? 

The Mossad already got walkie talkies in the hands of Hezbollah back in 2015. The walkie talkies contained an extra large battery and also gave the ability of Mossad to eavesdrop on ALL Hezbollah communications, which it did for nine years. 

Gift Link: bit.ly/3NgJDNu 

Get ready for the next round suckas….

 

[Bevo 13418]

On 10/4/2024 at 2:51 PM, Ghost of LL said:

I don't have time to get into a tit-for-tat on accounting. 

That’s a fucking joke

[Parliament 13982]

I'm thinking Apple earpods.