Israel-Hamas war thread

[AnTiM 1666]

34 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Please consider self-immolation as an expression of your condolences. 

[Vegas64 673]

22 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

yOu LoVe tHe teRRoRisTs!!!!

In actual news:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/10/18/israel-iran-hamas-war-news-gaza-lebanon/

This all sounds like neither Hamas nor Bibi is budging on anything. In fact, it sounds like negotiations are getting worse and worse and we suck at facilitating them. Time to serve up more suffering for the civvys!!

Respectfully, wrong.

Negotiations are getting worse because Hamas is losing whatever alternatives and leverage they had. Being decimated and wiped out systematically all they have left are the hostages. They get rid of the hostages and they are DONE and so they simply can't do it.

Bibi actually gave a verbal of a guarantee to the captors that they can “leave and live” if they let the hostages go.

Hamas won't because it will mean complete failure and defeat.

That's on Hamas, not Israel.

[Bookman 4638]

It's probably not a good idea to start a war that you can't win. 

[Laxtonto 12078]

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6682]

8 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Respectfully, wrong.

Negotiations are getting worse because Hamas is losing whatever alternatives and leverage they had. Being decimated and wiped out systematically all they have left are the hostages. They get rid of the hostages and they are DONE and so they simply can't do it.

Bibi actually gave a verbal of a guarantee to the captors that they can “leave and live” if they let the hostages go.

Hamas won't because it will mean complete failure and defeat.

That's on Hamas, not Israel.

Also respectfully, nothing you said really runs contrary to anything I said, except for the assertion that Bibi has not been acting as an obstructionist here. That is demonstrably untrue and there is a mountain of empirical evidence that he has been. Pretty much all of that reporting has come from Israeli media, to their credit, as they have every incentive to simply sit on that information in order to strengthen the Israeli position in the eyes of the world.

[Brian Fantana 6682]

Too late to edit but forgot to add none of that means I think your assertions about Hamas' role are incorrect.

[ChickenSandwich 9829]

Wow
 

CNN — 

The US is investigating a leak of highly classified US intelligence about Israel’s plans for retaliation against Iran, according to three people familiar with the matter. One of the people familiar confirmed the documents’ authenticity.

The leak is “deeply concerning,” a US official told CNN.

The documents, dated October 15 and 16, began circulating online Friday after being posted on Telegram by an account called “Middle East Spectator.”

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/19/politics/us-israel-iran-intelligence-documents

Edited October 20 by ChickenSandwich

[Armybrat 40826]

Somebody needs to go to prison for life without parole….at the very least. 
or just disappear.

[nineliveslost 2753]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wow
 

CNN — 

The US is investigating a leak of highly classified US intelligence about Israel’s plans for retaliation against Iran, according to three people familiar with the matter. One of the people familiar confirmed the documents’ authenticity.

The leak is “deeply concerning,” a US official told CNN.

The documents, dated October 15 and 16, began circulating online Friday after being posted on Telegram by an account called “Middle East Spectator.”

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/19/politics/us-israel-iran-intelligence-documents

very embarrassing. Someone should be in prison 

[SL Xpress 7513]

18 hours ago, Bookman said:

It's probably not a good idea to start a war that you can't win. 

 

What is winning? What is the alternative? 

There is a zero sum game going on. Either the Israelis achieve dominance in the area to the point the Palestinians no longer exist as a cultural identity, or the Palestinians/Arabs achieve dominance in the area to the point where Jewish cultural identity is somewhere other than the Levant, like it was for 1900 years.

For the Palestinians to give up fighting, means being 2nd class citizens and being powerless minorities in what they consider their own land. If you're Palestinian, what has peace looked like? Having political parties in Israel with no real voice in the government. Going through check points and being constantly dehumanized in Gaza and the West Bank. Watching settlers incrementally take over land, with policies deliberately designed to encourage you to move somewhere else. Anywhere else. 

I don't condone Hamas, but I'm not sure why anyone expects a different behavior, in the past or the future. For all of the destruction Israel has wrecked on their enemies - and it's been impressive - Israel is more isolated than ever. World opinion is at its lowest ebb towards Jews and Israel specifically.  There's more of a movement against the US/Israel alliance from both the left and the right than there ever has been. I'm unconvinced it's going to lead anywhere. Jews have always been targets of people who see their culture with fear and suspicion, and use it for a path to power. But sometimes it does lead somewhere, as we all know. 

There's practically a celebration in Jewish-centric outlets that I simply don't share. To me this all feels like short term victories. Important short term victories, but short term nonetheless. But allowing an organization willing to perpetrate October 7 to exist in a state where it was able to execute that day's events was impossible. Allowing Hezbollah to rain down rockets indiscriminately day after day was a no go. People decry the civilian deaths, but to me a completely ruthless response was the only response that was going to achieve this level of success. And it's not over. But there are consequences to all of this. I don't see any of the activity around Gaza and Lebanon as leading to long term peace. I believe it will harden attitudes and give rise to a new generation with a similar kind of resolve to strike back at the Zionists. I firmly believe October 7 will be celebrated among the Palestinian rank and file as a great victory. Sinwar and his cohorts, and all the Palestinian lives lost in the subsequent operation will be seen as necessary martyrs against evil. Future generations are going to willingly jump into the breach in hopes they can fulfill a similar purpose.

I'm not sure why people see it differently than that. 

[SL Xpress 7513]

31 minutes ago, nineliveslost said:

very embarrassing. Someone should be in prison 

Same shit different day. Same thing happened with Ukraine. 

And that's not even including the big leaks we hear about. 

I don't blame other countries for forgiveness over permission approaches. The US is not a secure ally.

[gsoda3 3251]

Leaks like these are often purposeful. I know, I've read all the Clancy novels.

[Bookman 4638]

1 hour ago, SL Xpress said:

 

What is winning? What is the alternative? 

There is a zero sum game going on. Either the Israelis achieve dominance in the area to the point the Palestinians no longer exist as a cultural identity, or the Palestinians/Arabs achieve dominance in the area to the point where Jewish cultural identity is somewhere other than the Levant, like it was for 1900 years.

For the Palestinians to give up fighting, means being 2nd class citizens and being powerless minorities in what they consider their own land. If you're Palestinian, what has peace looked like? Having political parties in Israel with no real voice in the government. Going through check points and being constantly dehumanized in Gaza and the West Bank. Watching settlers incrementally take over land, with policies deliberately designed to encourage you to move somewhere else. Anywhere else. 

I don't condone Hamas, but I'm not sure why anyone expects a different behavior, in the past or the future. For all of the destruction Israel has wrecked on their enemies - and it's been impressive - Israel is more isolated than ever. World opinion is at its lowest ebb towards Jews and Israel specifically.  There's more of a movement against the US/Israel alliance from both the left and the right than there ever has been. I'm unconvinced it's going to lead anywhere. Jews have always been targets of people who see their culture with fear and suspicion, and use it for a path to power. But sometimes it does lead somewhere, as we all know. 

There's practically a celebration in Jewish-centric outlets that I simply don't share. To me this all feels like short term victories. Important short term victories, but short term nonetheless. But allowing an organization willing to perpetrate October 7 to exist in a state where it was able to execute that day's events was impossible. Allowing Hezbollah to rain down rockets indiscriminately day after day was a no go. People decry the civilian deaths, but to me a completely ruthless response was the only response that was going to achieve this level of success. And it's not over. But there are consequences to all of this. I don't see any of the activity around Gaza and Lebanon as leading to long term peace. I believe it will harden attitudes and give rise to a new generation with a similar kind of resolve to strike back at the Zionists. I firmly believe October 7 will be celebrated among the Palestinian rank and file as a great victory. Sinwar and his cohorts, and all the Palestinian lives lost in the subsequent operation will be seen as necessary martyrs against evil. Future generations are going to willingly jump into the breach in hopes they can fulfill a similar purpose.

I'm not sure why people see it differently than that. 

You don't know what winning is? Seriously? 

[SL Xpress 7513]

12 minutes ago, Bookman said:

You don't know what winning is? Seriously? 

Do you?

[Dnaguy 11920]

4 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wow
 

CNN — 

The US is investigating a leak of highly classified US intelligence about Israel’s plans for retaliation against Iran, according to three people familiar with the matter. One of the people familiar confirmed the documents’ authenticity.

The leak is “deeply concerning,” a US official told CNN.

The documents, dated October 15 and 16, began circulating online Friday after being posted on Telegram by an account called “Middle East Spectator.”

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/19/politics/us-israel-iran-intelligence-documents

 

3 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Somebody needs to go to prison for life without parole….at the very least. 
or just disappear.

 

The administration leaked it themselves.

 

They're trying to prevent the strike and so a 'leaker' did it.

 

No one is going to jail b/c it was done on purpose. They're trying to make sure a full blown regional war doesn't break out. 

If you're a cynic, you'll say it's to prevent a war breaking out so close to an election.

However, I feel like it's Biden really believing the mass chaos and reproductions of a full regional war in the Middle East breaking out.

[Brian Fantana 6682]

58 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Do you?

It's amazing to read the first line of someone's post and come up with a take like that one.

Good post btw.

[Bevo 13570]

10 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

 

 

The administration leaked it themselves.

 

They're trying to prevent the strike and so a 'leaker' did it.

 

No one is going to jail b/c it was done on purpose. They're trying to make sure a full blown regional war doesn't break out. 

If you're a cynic, you'll say it's to prevent a war breaking out so close to an election.

However, I feel like it's Biden really believing the mass chaos and reproductions of a full regional war in the Middle East breaking out.

 

This is likely true. We fucked Ukraine in their first offensive so Ukraine kept their invasion of Kursk a secret. And guess what, it was successful. We've fucked Israel. We've helped Russia and Iran. Yeah, we have a lot of cool shit and we have provided intelligence and shot stuff down, but we have shown that we are not to be trusted and are not a reliable partner.

[Captainant 27640]

4 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wow
 

CNN — 

The US is investigating a leak of highly classified US intelligence about Israel’s plans for retaliation against Iran, according to three people familiar with the matter. One of the people familiar confirmed the documents’ authenticity.

The leak is “deeply concerning,” a US official told CNN.

The documents, dated October 15 and 16, began circulating online Friday after being posted on Telegram by an account called “Middle East Spectator.”

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/19/politics/us-israel-iran-intelligence-documents

It's hard to keep track of when we care about classified documents and when we dont

[Brisketexan 105082]

It's hard to keep track of when we care about classified documents and when we dont

It’s pretty easy. When they serve the ends of MAGA, leakers are heroes. “I love Wikileaks.” But when the MAGAs don’t like the end served, it’s treason, and someone should rot in prison. Remember the important rule of this new era: there are no objective laws or rules. Just things that should be praised because we like the result, and things that should be punished because we don’t.

[Homercles 10205]

All right everybody, time to retire as a Counter Insurgency specialist and start a new career as Senior Principal Intelligence Analysts.  

Job market may be rough for tech right now but I’ve heard there’s a dearth of Economic Intelligence Vaccine Urban Planning Offensive Coordinators.  

[Bevo 13570]

26 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It's hard to keep track of when we care about classified documents and when we dont

Politicians don't - military does- justice department has been iffy - generally pretty good but did purposefully pre-release the Roe v Wade ruling.

[Bevo 13570]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It’s pretty easy. When they serve the ends of MAGA, leakers are heroes. “I love Wikileaks.” But when the MAGAs don’t like the end served, it’s treason, and someone should rot in prison. Remember the important rule of this new era: there are no objective laws or rules. Just things that should be praised because we like the result, and things that should be punished because we don’t.

 

I thought you would be against releasing Ukraine and Israel war plans to their enemies.

[Brisketexan 105082]

 
I thought you would be against releasing Ukraine and Israel war plans to their enemies.

I am. I’m against the release of classified documents. Because that’s the law. I’m just pointing out that many of the folks who are decrying this leak are just fine with “I love Wikileaks.”
I have a problem with all of the leaks of classified info.

[Bevo 13570]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I am. I’m against the release of classified documents. Because that’s the law. I’m just pointing out that many of the folks who are decrying this leak are just fine with “I love Wikileaks.”
I have a problem with all of the leaks of classified info.

Gotcha, for a minute it sounded like you felt that the administration was justified in releasing the war plans of its allies. 

[Anastasis 23464]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have a problem with all of the leaks of classified info.

That’s a pretty broad general statement. Far too much over classification. Far too many things that need to see light of day. Not really related at all to this particular situation. But as a general series of statements.  

[TKthunder2 4985]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

That’s a pretty broad general statement. Far too much over classification. Far too many things that need to see light of day. Not really related at all to this particular situation. But as a general series of statements.  

I agree with this completely, and I tend to disagree with you 9 out of 10 times.

[Armybrat 40826]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I am. I’m against the release of classified documents. Because that’s the law. I’m just pointing out that many of the folks who are decrying this leak are just fine with “I love Wikileaks.”
I have a problem with all of the leaks of classified info.

Pardon my senior ignorance, I have heard about this “Wikileaks” but don’t know who or where it is. 
Seriously.

[DDD Dad 14331]

On 10/18/2024 at 2:59 PM, MagicSoccerSpray said:

Collectively, it's time for the West to grow up. This isn't a classroom, or a courtroom, and we're not dealing with rational trustworthy entities that you can assume are acting in good faith. No more idealism, no more naivete.

I’ll show myself out. 

[DDD Dad 14331]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Politicians don't - military does- justice department has been iffy - generally pretty good but did purposefully pre-release the Roe v Wade ruling.

You misspelled Sam Alito. 

[Anastasis 23464]

27 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

I agree with this completely, and I tend to disagree with you 9 out of 10 times.

Some people would rather live in blissful ignorance as a matter of course. 

[Brian Fantana 6682]

19 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Some people would rather live in blissful ignorance as a matter of course. 

I don't think it's that necessarily, I just think Brisket has lawyer brain and this is just one of those topics it's going to leak into. Your point about over-classification lands pretty well.

[956 Worldwide 34704]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

 

I thought you would be against releasing Ukraine and Israel war plans to their enemies.

They didn’t.  I have seen the docs but if the heading that is circulating and the description is accurate, what got leaked was a U.S. assessment including sensitive imagery.  

[Anastasis 23464]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

Pardon my senior ignorance, I have heard about this “Wikileaks” but don’t know who or where it is. 
Seriously.

Use to be favorably viewed when he was shitting on bush. Liberals started losing their minds when he shit on HRC. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

That’s a pretty broad general statement. Far too much over classification. Far too many things that need to see light of day. Not really related at all to this particular situation. But as a general series of statements.  

Let me guess. You should be the one to determine what should and should not?

[956 Worldwide 34704]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

Pardon my senior ignorance, I have heard about this “Wikileaks” but don’t know who or where it is. 
Seriously.

Wikileaks is an online portal that Julian Assange used to publish documents that purportedly leaked.  Its primary purpose was to launder information stolen, hacked, or otherwise illegally obtained by Kremlin intelligence services in a way that served Russia’s foreign policy interests.  It also notably refused to publish leaked Kremlin documents. This is because Assange is an open, paid Kremlin agent. 

[Armybrat 40826]

Assange! 
Now I remember that case. There was a tug of war between a trio of countries over extraditing him IIRC. 
How did that end up?

[956 Worldwide 34704]

2 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Assange! 
Now I remember that case. There was a tug of war between a trio of countries over extraditing him IIRC. 
How did that end up?

He plead guilty to espionage in exchange for time served in the UK awaiting extradition and went back to Australia. 

Edited October 20 by 956 Worldwide

[Bookman 4638]

4 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Do you?

Yeah, of course. It's the opposite of losing.

If they can't identify what "winning" is, then this is probably all over their heads. 

Edited October 20 by Bookman

[Anastasis 23464]

38 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Let me guess. You should be the one to determine what should and should not?

As a law abiding and patriotic american tax payer I have as much right as anyone else in this country to view that material. It is only the cockroaches that are scared of what comes from the light of day. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As a law abiding and patriotic american tax payer I have as much right as anyone else in this country to view that material. It is only the cockroaches that are scared of what comes from the light of day. 

No, you don't. You have a right to vote for those that see it. Not everything should be out there. I agree a lot is stupid, but smart people can do a lot with just a little information.

[Anastasis 23464]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

No, you don't. You have a right to vote for those that see it.

WRT that, I don't find any of that shit in the Constitution and I understand that rights are reserved to the people. You nor anyone else gets to tells the rest of us what rights we have and don't have. The cockroaches love that shit though. And particularly the compliant types. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

WRT that, I don't find any of that shit in the Constitution and I understand that rights are reserved to the people. You nor anyone else gets to tells the rest of us what rights we have and don't have. The cockroaches love that shit though. And particularly the compliant types. 

A secret clearance is not spelled out in the constitution, therefore we should all sit in on Presidential intel briefings?

[InkaUtexas 25875]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

WRT that, I don't find any of that shit in the Constitution and I understand that rights are reserved to the people. You nor anyone else gets to tells the rest of us what rights we have and don't have. The cockroaches love that shit though. And particularly the compliant types. 

And when the fuck did I tell your free earthing self what you can and not know? When did I infringe on your rights?

Like I said. Those that you vote for have the power to see certain things. Please send me the link to your political campaign.

[Anastasis 23464]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

A secret clearance is not spelled out in the constitution, therefore we should all sit in on Presidential intel briefings?

The President is not a special god ordained figure with some set of unique rights. The American people should have every single piece of relevant information. If it is relevant to the President's decision making, it is relevant to the people. I would be willing to make reasonable and pragmatic exceptions in times of declared war. But this notion that the government somehow has super authority and autonomy distinct from the right of the governed people is fundamentally anti-democratic.  

Edited October 20 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23464]

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

When did I infringe on your rights?

You did not infringe my rights. You just tried to tell me what they were and were not. And I pushed back. I hope that is ok. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The President is not a special god ordained figure with some set of unique rights. The American people should have every single piece of relevant information. If it is relevant to the President's decision making, it is relevant to the people. I would be willing to make reasonable and pragmatic exceptions in times of declared war. But this notion that the government somehow has super authority and autonomy distinct from the right of the governed people is fundamentally anti-democratic.  

I think trying to start a war might be a reason. Dude, there is not a plot behind everything event. I think you need to go outdoors, breathe some air, make sure the BOI is not infringing on your perimeter.

No one said they were god like. And I did not try to tell you one thing. Again, no conspiracy. There is not a CIA agent hiding in your closet. Or is there?

[Anastasis 23464]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think trying to start a war might be a reason. Dude, there is not a plot behind everything event. I think you need to go outdoors, breathe some air, make sure the BOI is not infringing on your perimeter.

No one said they were god like. And I did not try to tell you one thing. Again, no conspiracy. There is not a CIA agent hiding in your closet. Or is there?

No one is talking about a CIA plot here dude. Just basic principles about the roles and relationship between the governed and our representatives. There is nothing fundamentally traumatizing when the light of day shines. Unless you are a cockroach. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

No one is talking about a CIA plot here dude. Just basic principles about the roles and relationship between the governed and our representatives. There is nothing fundamentally traumatizing when the light of day shines. Unless you are a cockroach. 

Cool. Joint Chiefs coming to your place tomorrow for tea They want to discuss with you and your neighbors the war readiness plans for 2050. Please have scones. They like scones.

Half the nation is functioning literate, sure lets tell them everything. TayTay can write songs about it to ensure they listen in. Maybe part of his community service Puff can do some PSA's.

Shit, no they are not. Joint Chiefs are not in the Constitution. Or is it joint chefs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

joint

Edited October 20 by InkaUtexas

[956 Worldwide 34704]

Every American needs the “At Sea Deterrent” tracking app on their phone. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Every American needs the “At Sea Deterrent” tracking app on their phone. 

Nah, we got fitness apps so everyone can know where they are. Like was basecamp in syria.