Israel-Hamas war thread

[956 Worldwide 35513]

The most sensible and strategically sound decision Israel could make is to return settlers from the West Bank and unilaterally declare the existence of a Palestinian state inside internationally recognized borders. Hand over the details of what comes next to Arab neighbors, seal the border, and respond with overwhelming force to any attacks emanating from that territory but otherwise wash their hands and walk away. 

[Stros121 3]

 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

55 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The most sensible and strategically sound decision Israel could make is to return settlers from the West Bank and unilaterally declare the existence of a Palestinian state inside internationally recognized borders. Hand over the details of what comes next to Arab neighbors, seal the border, and respond with overwhelming force to any attacks emanating from that territory but otherwise wash their hands and walk away. 

Their goal is to take all that land for themselves, no matter how many people they have to kill or displace. that's the strategy. It's not going to change. I don't necessarily disagree with you.

[Keef 852]

I see Bibi was very dedicated to the White House's cease fire plan.  He's embarrassing us at every turn.

[Laxtonto 13013]

 

[Rex Kramer 1522]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Now, apply that take to the hard right in Israel that has openly stated that it wants to wipe all Palestinians from the levant.

And see how fucked we are for a long, long, long time, because the current war is adding generations of fuel to the fire for the extremist elements on both sides.

No I won’t apply it because it’s apples and oranges, and you know it, and anyone who engages with you on this particular thread needs to say nothing more than that.

Nothing Israel is doing is adding any more fuel.  On the total fucking contrary, they’re having massive military and intel success, and they’ve got these savages in absolute fear. Anyone associated with Hamas or Hezbollah needs to die. Kill. Them. All. When Hamas II rears its head, kill them all. 

[HellesBier 190]

27 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Their goal is to take all that land for themselves, no matter how many people they have to kill or displace. that's the strategy. It's not going to change. I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I’m glad we have you with your special intelligence giving us live accurate updates with absolute authority! We are surly a lucky group!

[Rex Kramer 1522]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The most sensible and strategically sound decision Israel could make is to return settlers from the West Bank and unilaterally declare the existence of a Palestinian state inside internationally recognized borders. Hand over the details of what comes next to Arab neighbors, seal the border, and respond with overwhelming force to any attacks emanating from that territory but otherwise wash their hands and walk away. 

Sounds good on paper. Questions: 

(1) Where is this Palestinian state?

(2) Will Palestinians ever go for it?

(3) Does their border touch Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon or Syria?

[Brisketexan 106607]

21 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

No I won’t apply it because it’s apples and oranges, and you know it, and anyone who engages with you on this particular thread needs to say nothing more than that.

Nothing Israel is doing is adding any more fuel.  On the total fucking contrary, they’re having massive military and intel success, and they’ve got these savages in absolute fear. Anyone associated with Hamas or Hezbollah needs to die. Kill. Them. All. When Hamas II rears its head, kill them all. 

If you don't want to take an objective, expansive view, and instead just want to jack off in your bloodlust, just say so and be done with it.

What Israel continues to do in the West Bank alone refutes what I bolded.

None of us have a particular problem with Israeli decapitation actions against Hamas and Hezbollah leadership.  The ongoing fuckery in the West Bank (happening in the background and getting much less viewing because of the greater drama in Gaza and Lebanon) puts a lie to what I bolded.  Israel should stop that shit.  Israel could and should take an approach that 1) if you are militants, we will kill you, but 2) if you are civilians, we won't fuck you and will act to protect you.  Regarding the WB, that sure as shit isn't what's happening.

[956 Worldwide 35513]

3 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Sounds good on paper. Questions: 

(1) Where is this Palestinian state?

(2) Will Palestinians ever go for it?

(3) Does their border touch Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon or Syria?

Answer: No longer Israel’s problem.   They want a state: give it to them and then treat that state like any other that launches attacks on a more powerful neighbor.  
 

Israel would be far more justified and supported internationally if it was acting in self-defense against a Palestinian state.  The narrative shifts and all of a sudden you can’t hide real motives. It would also channel local anger outside of Israel.  A newly formed state that meets stated Arab nation demands and that is dependent on said nations for support is the last thing those countries really want. 
 

 

[Rex Kramer 1522]

10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Answer: No longer Israel’s problem.   They want a state: give it to them and then treat that state like any other that launches attacks on a more powerful neighbor.  
 

Israel would be far more justified and supported internationally if it was acting in self-defense against a Palestinian state.  The narrative shifts and all of a sudden you can’t hide real motives. It would also channel local anger outside of Israel.  A newly formed state that meets stated Arab nation demands and that is dependent on said nations for support is the last thing those countries really want. 
 

 

They’d never be able to shift the narrative because the Palestinians would never agree to it. This is why I asked the specific questions I asked. Answering them is crucial to your plan. 

[Parliament 14555]

1 hour ago, Stros121 said:

Edited September 27 by Parliament

[956 Worldwide 35513]

8 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

They’d never be able to shift the narrative because the Palestinians would never agree to it. This is why I asked the specific questions I asked. Answering them is crucial to your plan. 

I am fairly sanguine about the fact that a future Palestinian independent political entity will remain dangerous to Israel. My plan takes away their most useful weapon: sympathy based on a fairly persuasive argument that Israel poses as the region’s stable rule-follower but flouts international norms. 
 

You’ll note that I said “unilateral.”  The Palestinians don’t get a vote.  In effect, the following letter to the international community:

“Dear International Community:

We agree with your long-held contention that Palestinians should have a state within internationally recognized borders.  Effective tomorrow, they have one.  Our only conditions are that Palestinians now sort out their affairs with themselves and the international community and remain within their universally recognized borders.

Moving forward, our relations with the new Palestinian state are the responsibility of the Palestinian government.  We are happy to establish an embassy and discuss our differences and shared goals.  We are equally happy to resolve future differences via JDAMS.  The choice is Palestine’s- and yours.”

The Romans had an obsession with “scientific” defensible frontiers. For a state like Israel, scientific frontiers are political as well as physical.  Israel needs to establish scientific defensible borders and secure Western/US support for generations while punting the Palestine question to the Arab world. 
 

 

[Rex Kramer 1522]

17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I am fairly sanguine about the fact that a future Palestinian independent political entity will remain dangerous to Israel. My plan takes away their most useful weapon: sympathy based on a fairly persuasive argument that Israel poses as the region’s stable rule-follower but flouts international norms. 
 

You’ll note that I said “unilateral.”  The Palestinians don’t get a vote.  In effect, the following letter to the international community:

“Dear International Community:

We agree with your long-held contention that Palestinians should have a state within internationally recognized borders.  Effective tomorrow, they have one.  Our only conditions are that Palestinians now sort out their affairs with themselves and the international community and remain within their universally recognized borders.

Moving forward, our relations with the new Palestinian state are the responsibility of the Palestinian government.  We are happy to establish an embassy and discuss our differences and shared goals.  We are equally happy to resolve future differences via JDAMS.  The choice is Palestine’s- and yours.”

The Romans had an obsession with “scientific” defensible frontiers. For a state like Israel, scientific frontiers are political as well as physical.  Israel needs to establish scientific defensible borders and secure Western/US support for generations while punting the Palestine question to the Arab world. 
 

 

My point is, Palestinians would retain every ounce of sympathy when they reject Israel’s offer due to the lack of details you have provided. And, when you provide them, whatever you provide they will quibble with every detail. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

49 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Answer: No longer Israel’s problem.   They want a state: give it to them and then treat that state like any other that launches attacks on a more powerful neighbor.  
 

Israel would be far more justified and supported internationally if it was acting in self-defense against a Palestinian state.  The narrative shifts and all of a sudden you can’t hide real motives. It would also channel local anger outside of Israel.  A newly formed state that meets stated Arab nation demands and that is dependent on said nations for support is the last thing those countries really want. 
 

 

 

19 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I am fairly sanguine about the fact that a future Palestinian independent political entity will remain dangerous to Israel. My plan takes away their most useful weapon: sympathy based on a fairly persuasive argument that Israel poses as the region’s stable rule-follower but flouts international norms. 
 

You’ll note that I said “unilateral.”  The Palestinians don’t get a vote.  In effect, the following letter to the international community:

“Dear International Community:

We agree with your long-held contention that Palestinians should have a state within internationally recognized borders.  Effective tomorrow, they have one.  Our only conditions are that Palestinians now sort out their affairs with themselves and the international community and remain within their universally recognized borders.

Moving forward, our relations with the new Palestinian state are the responsibility of the Palestinian government.  We are happy to establish an embassy and discuss our differences and shared goals.  We are equally happy to resolve future differences via JDAMS.  The choice is Palestine’s- and yours.”

The Romans had an obsession with “scientific” defensible frontiers. For a state like Israel, scientific frontiers are political as well as physical.  Israel needs to establish scientific defensible borders and secure Western/US support for generations while punting the Palestine question to the Arab world. 
 

 

Obviously this couldn't happen overnight, but I don't really disagree with what you're saying here. Does Israel foot the bill to rebuild all of the infrastructure they destroyed?

[956 Worldwide 35513]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Obviously this couldn't happen overnight, but I don't really disagree with what you're saying here. Does Israel foot the bill to rebuild all of the infrastructure they destroyed?

I’d say all questions about that get punted to whether a future Palestine wants JDAMS or an embassy.  The whole point here is to make this other people’s problems. Pull the Band-Aid.

There are some very wealthy states that claim to have solidarity with Palestine so start there for funding. 

[956 Worldwide 35513]

 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’d say all questions about that get punted to whether a future Palestine wants JDAMS or an embassy.  The whole point here is to make this other people’s problems. Pull the Band-Aid.

There are some very wealthy states that claim to have solidarity with Palestine so start there for funding. 

I get what you're saying but I would guess that saying "lol it's all yours now" after you've already leveled a great deal of the infrastructure is not exactly going to win Israel any points in the international community. That argument you referenced with regard to Israel posing as the stable rule-follower but not really living up to that is not going to get any less persuasive.

It certainly wouldn't reduce the risk of violence. It would just cause a desperate population to become even more desperate.

[956 Worldwide 35513]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I get what you're saying but I would guess that saying "lol it's all yours now" after you've already leveled a great deal of the infrastructure is not exactly going to win Israel any points in the international community. That argument you referenced with regard to Israel posing as the stable rule-follower but not really living up to that is not going to get any less persuasive.

It certainly wouldn't reduce the risk of violence. It would just cause a desperate population to become even more desperate.

In that case Israel can send a bill for the cost of developing and deploying Iron Dome and call it even Steven. 
 

Although you are making my subtle point that nothing will ever be satisfactory. Are you saying that the Arab and Muslim world won’t step up to help the desperate population? 

[956 Worldwide 35513]

Anyway, the question of “who rebuilds” would be irrelevant. A new Palestine would be the darling of the Norways and Irelands and other rich nations of the world.  They’d be falling over themselves to distribute largesse.

The sole question would be the new entity’s willingness to use it for infrastructure and not bombs and a willingness to set aside the symbolic demands of “Israel has to pay or it doesn’t count.” 
 

Open question on both. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

In that case Israel can send a bill for the cost of developing and deploying Iron Dome and call it even Steven. 
 

Although you are making my subtle point that nothing will ever be satisfactory. Are you saying that the Arab and Muslim world won’t step up to help the desperate population? 

I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're staking out a starting point that is simply entirely unreasonable and saying "See????? Nothing can be good enough!" when it's inevitably rejected by the international community. It's not a compelling argument and neither is the circular one you are presenting in the first sentence.

If Israel cared to do what you're proposing they could have done it literally decades ago.

e: But we both know the overall goal is to steal all that land and kill and/or displace anyone who holds out.

Edited September 27 by Brian Fantana

[956 Worldwide 35513]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're staking out a starting point that is simply entirely unreasonable and saying "See????? Nothing can be good enough!" when it's inevitably rejected by the international community. It's not a compelling argument and neither is the circular one you are presenting in the first sentence.

If Israel cared to do what you're proposing they could have done it literally decades ago.

I am laying out what they should do and  not what they have done and you are very effectively showing that the goal posts will always move.  But you are wrong, many nations would be very happy for Palestine to simply be an Arab/Muslim/UN problem tomorrow and be relieved of legalistic arguments to throttle support for Israel’s defense. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Anyway, the question of “who rebuilds” would be irrelevant. A new Palestine would be the darling of the Norways and Irelands and other rich nations of the world.  They’d be falling over themselves to distribute largesse.

The sole question would be the new entity’s willingness to use it for infrastructure and not bombs and a willingness to set aside the symbolic demands of “Israel has to pay or it doesn’t count.” 
 

Open question on both. 

Yeah you're probably right about that, and I personally wouldn't care who paid but my guess is the international community wouldn't respond positively to the scenario you're putting forward is all.

[Rex Kramer 1522]

14 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

In that case Israel can send a bill for the cost of developing and deploying Iron Dome and call it even Steven. 
 

Although you are making my subtle point that nothing will ever be satisfactory. Are you saying that the Arab and Muslim world won’t step up to help the desperate population? 

This is my entire point. They’d reject anything Israel offers. They have for 75+ years. They’d then spin that rejection into Israel’s unreasonability and have the “international community” buy that bullshit. They don’t live to prosper. They live to scapegoat and terrorize Israel, and suffer. 

[956 Worldwide 35513]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah you're probably right about that, and I personally wouldn't care who paid but my guess is the international community wouldn't respond positively to the scenario you're putting forward is all.

They would. No one wants Serbia to pay a bunch of money to Kosovo or Bosnia, they just want them to stop being assholes. I am excluding a set of nations here that will never be satisfied until a Jewish state is wiped from the face of the earth. A side benefit of my plan is that this would put that fact in stark relief. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

They would. No one wants Serbia to pay a bunch of money to Kosovo or Bosnia, they just want them to stop being assholes. I am excluding a set of nations here that will never be satisfied until a Jewish state is wiped from the face of the earth. A side benefit of my plan is that this would put that fact in stark relief. 

You might be right, honestly, it's just a shame that none of it will ever happen because we both know what the actual goal is.

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

many nations would be very happy for Palestine to simply be an Arab/Muslim/UN problem tomorrow

Considering that the Western world has spent the decades since WWII working very hard (and very successfully, I might add) to shift the blame for the Holocaust and the many pogroms that occurred in non-Arab nations entirely onto Palestinians and the Arab world, I certainly cannot disagree with this statement at all.

[956 Worldwide 35513]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You might be right, honestly, it's just a shame that none of it will ever happen because we both know what the actual goal is.

Considering that the Western world has spent the decades since WWII working very hard (and very successfully, I might add) to shift the blame for the Holocaust and the many pogroms that occurred in non-Arab nations entirely onto Palestinians and the Arab world, I certainly cannot disagree with this statement at all.

Absolutely nonsense framing and a good example of inhabiting an alternate reality. Please provide a solitary example of a Western nation blaming the Arab world for the Holocaust or any pogroms (except for the Arab’s entirely “Anti-Zionist” actions to destroy millennial-old Jewish communities as a completely not anti-Semitic response to Israel’s establishment). Just one case of a Western government blaming the Arabs for the Holocaust will suffice. 

[statsman 5674]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I am fairly sanguine about the fact that a future Palestinian independent political entity will remain dangerous to Israel. My plan takes away their most useful weapon: sympathy based on a fairly persuasive argument that Israel poses as the region’s stable rule-follower but flouts international norms. 
 

You’ll note that I said “unilateral.”  The Palestinians don’t get a vote.  In effect, the following letter to the international community:

“Dear International Community:

We agree with your long-held contention that Palestinians should have a state within internationally recognized borders.  Effective tomorrow, they have one.  Our only conditions are that Palestinians now sort out their affairs with themselves and the international community and remain within their universally recognized borders.

Moving forward, our relations with the new Palestinian state are the responsibility of the Palestinian government.  We are happy to establish an embassy and discuss our differences and shared goals.  We are equally happy to resolve future differences via JDAMS.  The choice is Palestine’s- and yours.”

The Romans had an obsession with “scientific” defensible frontiers. For a state like Israel, scientific frontiers are political as well as physical.  Israel needs to establish scientific defensible borders and secure Western/US support for generations while punting the Palestine question to the Arab world. 
 

 

How is this different than pulling out of Gaza in 2005?

[956 Worldwide 35513]

Just now, statsman said:

How is this different than pulling out of Gaza in 2005?

Israel did not recognize a Palestinian state, they just left and continued to let Gaza/WB occupy a legal gray zone.  This solution is to just leave, wash your hands, and solidify U.S. military and political support for generations. 

[Rex Kramer 1522]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Absolutely nonsense framing and a good example of inhabiting an alternate reality. Please provide a solitary example of a Western nation blaming the Arab world for the Holocaust or any pogroms (except for the Arab’s entirely “Anti-Zionist” actions to destroy millennial-old Jewish communities as a completely not anti-Semitic response to Israel’s establishment). Just one case of a Western government blaming the Arabs for the Holocaust will suffice. 

Like I said, I don’t know why y’all engage with him. He’s a loon. First I’ve ever heard the idea that the Holocaust is the Arabs’ fault and not the Nazis’. I mean, what a fucking ridiculous statement.  Bonkers. 

[HellesBier 190]

It is beautiful watching @Brian Fantanagetting ganbanged like that white slut but the 5 black dudes memes. 

Sent with love, like a drone, from Ukraine

[statsman 5674]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Israel did not recognize a Palestinian state, they just left and continued to let Gaza/WB occupy a legal gray zone.  This solution is to just leave, wash your hands, and solidify U.S. military and political support for generations. 

I think thats a distinction without a difference. 
 
Israel left Gaza, the PA held an election, Hamas won, the UNRWA gives a bunch of money that enriches terrorist leaders and buys tunnels (not weapons; Iran gives them for free). Israel provides utilities and medical care (Egypt provides neither), and in return the Gazans hate them and the world pilloried them. I don’t see how writing the letter you composed would make anything different. 
 
I think the last  thing this world needs is another authoritarian and aggressive state. How about this- the Palestinian people organize into a liberal democracy (there are a lot of examples) and then they get a state?

[Rex Kramer 1522]

2 minutes ago, statsman said:

I think the last  thing this world needs is another authoritarian and aggressive state. How about this- the Palestinian people organize into a liberal democracy (there are a lot of examples) and then they get a state?

Nah I think giving them their own state wherever they want, even bordering Syria and Lebanon, will work out great. lol. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Absolutely nonsense framing and a good example of inhabiting an alternate reality. Please provide a solitary example of a Western nation blaming the Arab world for the Holocaust or any pogroms (except for the Arab’s entirely “Anti-Zionist” actions to destroy millennial-old Jewish communities as a completely not anti-Semitic response to Israel’s establishment). Just one case of a Western government blaming the Arabs for the Holocaust will suffice. 

First, I do not deny at all the pogroms that occurred in the Arab world and antisemitic retaliations that occurred in the wake of Israel's establishment, nor the level of antisemitism present in the Arab world. It's all fucking gross.

Second, I could not have possibly worded what I said in a worse way. What I meant to say is: The Western world has successfully shifted its guilt for the crimes of the Holocaust et al away from itself and a colonized Palestine is poor restitution for said crimes. Making Palestine entirely the problem of the Arab world would just be the Western world's final act of washing their hands of all that. I would say Israel agrees, considering their goals are very clearly to ethnically cleanse all of occupied Palestine and absorb it into Israel.

I certainly agree that your scenario would definitely be better than that, at least.

[bolverk 30228]

For what it's worth @956 Worldwide, I wholeheartedly endorse your plan, as it's essentially the stance I've held from the beginning.

Since the various parties can't seem to get along, they should all stay on their own side of the 1967 line. Any acts of aggression beyond that line (including blockades like the Israelis had over Gaza @statsman) should be rejected by the international community and the aggressor gets punished with impunity, regardless of who the bad actor is. It makes the state of affairs clear and unambiguous; everyone knows the rules and respects one another's full sovereignty. If you can't abide by those rules, you can get fucked.

I'm even fine if Israel doesn't help with rebuilding. After all, they'll have lost all their investments to the Palestinian State in housing and infrastructure in the West Bank to serve the settlements. And, as you said, there is no shortage of countries that would be happy to help the Palestinians rebuild.

[Brian Fantana 6856]

10 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

It is beautiful watching @Brian Fantanagetting ganbanged like that white slut but the 5 black dudes memes. 

Sent with love, like a drone, from Ukraine

Stay safe!

[956 Worldwide 35513]

1 minute ago, statsman said:

I think thats a distinction without a difference. 
 
Israel left Gaza, the PA held an election, Hamas won, the UNRWA gives a bunch of money that enriches terrorist leaders and buys tunnels (not weapons; Iran gives them for free). Israel provides utilities and medical care (Egypt provides neither), and in return the Gazans hate them and the world pilloried them. I don’t see how writing the letter you composed would make anything different. 
 
I think the last  thing this world needs is another authoritarian and aggressive state. How about this- the Palestinian people organize into a liberal democracy (there are a lot of examples) and then they get a state?

I think ideally I am with you, but it’s a non-ideal world. And that the minutiae of international law does have an impact. For a lot of countries, it’s a real difference. Announcing acceptance and recognition of a Palestinian state unlocks a lot of real tools and more than that places responsibility for governance and security firmly within multilateral structures.  Purely from a self-interest standpoint, multinational forces and neighbors begin to absorb the brunt of Palestinian anger and Israel is not physically overextended by trying to defend settlements it doesn’t really want or need. Israel cannot and will not truly seize and defend Gaza or WB and the status quo is less preferable to giving them up and then defending recognized borders. 
 

I don’t agree on a lot with Fantana here,  but it’s domestic politics and not strategic interest guiding Israeli behavior here. 

[statsman 5674]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For what it's worth @956 Worldwide, I wholeheartedly endorse your plan, as it's essentially the stance I've held from the beginning.

Since the various parties can't seem to get along, they should all stay on their own side of the 1967 line. Any acts of aggression beyond that line (including blockades like the Israelis had over Gaza @statsman) should be rejected by the international community and the aggressor gets punished with impunity, regardless of who the bad actor is. It makes the state of affairs clear and unambiguous; everyone knows the rules and respects one another's full sovereignty. If you can't abide by those rules, you can get fucked.

I'm even fine if Israel doesn't help with rebuilding. After all, they'll have lost all their investments to the Palestinian State in housing and infrastructure in the West Bank to serve the settlements. And, as you said, there is no shortage of countries that would be happy to help the Palestinians rebuild.

You say “blockade”. Isn’t a better description “inspecting approaching ships for weapons from Iran”?

If there were no weapons from Iran coming to Gaza, do you think Israel would still insist on boarding approaching ships? I guess we’ll never know…

[Brisketexan 106607]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

but it’s domestic politics and not strategic interest guiding Israeli behavior here. 

Ding ding ding.

[bolverk 30228]

1 minute ago, statsman said:

You say “blockade”. Isn’t a better description “inspecting approaching ships for weapons from Iran”?

If there were no weapons from Iran coming to Gaza, do you think Israel would still insist on boarding approaching ships? I guess we’ll never know…

Israel controls all utilities in Gaza, including water, electricity, and telecoms, and they've rationed the shit out of it in punitive measures to the extent that Gazans have been made to suffer -- even in times of peace. In addition, Gazan fishermen have not even been allowed to fish in their own territorial waters nor have Palestinians been allowed access to their own gas fields in the Mediterranean Sea. They've been under a near-total blockade (no scare quotes needed) for two decades. 

Now, imagine whether more Gazans would've moderated and not felt the need to resort to armed revolt if there were no blockade. I guess we'll never know...

[Rex Kramer 1522]

7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Israel controls all utilities in Gaza, including water, electricity, and telecoms, and they've rationed the shit out of it in punitive measures to the extent that Gazans have been made to suffer -- even in times of peace. In addition, Gazan fishermen have not even been allowed to fish in their own territorial waters nor have Palestinians been allowed access to their own gas fields in the Mediterranean Sea. They've been under a near-total blockade (no scare quotes needed) for two decades. 

Now, imagine whether more Gazans would've moderated and not felt the need to resort to armed revolt if there were no blockade. I guess we'll never know...

Sucks for non-Hamas Gazans, but it sure as shit ain’t Israel’s fault that Hamas has existed and ruled the last 2 decades. I have zero problem with their blockade and rationing. 

[statsman 5674]

What has kept Gaza from using that UNRWA funding to develop their own utilities? And a foreign office to protest Israeli actions?

Oh, yeah, the Hamas autocrats who rule Gaza. They take the money for themselves and leave the people dependent on Israel for needs a functioning government would provide. 
 
You don’t say anything, Bolverk, about the Iranian weapons smuggled in. One thing to remember- the missiles are for Israelis, sure, but the rifles and bullets? 90% of the time, Hamas has them in use for keeping the Gazan civilians in line. 

Edited September 27 by statsman

[Brisketexan 106607]

7 minutes ago, statsman said:

90% of the time, Hamas has them in use for keeping the Gazan civilians in line. 

So, clearly, the only rational thing for Israel to do is.....kill Gazan civilians and actively pursue the goal of removing them all from the levant so that Israel can occupy the entire levant "from the river to the sea" (yeah, that's an exact quote from members of the Israeli hardline right since this war started).

Most of us would agree that Hamas has been and remains fuckers to the Gazan civilian population.  We just differ in our take on the "so, an approach where Israel amps up that suffering is a great idea" angle.  If you want to ensure perpetual hatred and conflict, and yes, future terrorism and murder of Israelis and jews, by all means, continue this process.  That violence will happen in different ways than it did on Oct 7th....but it will happen.  

[InkaUtexas 26793]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The most sensible and strategically sound decision Israel could make is to return settlers from the West Bank and unilaterally declare the existence of a Palestinian state inside internationally recognized borders. Hand over the details of what comes next to Arab neighbors, seal the border, and respond with overwhelming force to any attacks emanating from that territory but otherwise wash their hands and walk away. 

100%. When I said this one person told me to go fuck my mother, so be careful. Surly hate is real. Sadly the retired Diplomat is deceased. Otherwise she would have kicked this said persons ass both over policy and on implementation.

A state, that is dependent on the Arabs is easily Israel's best way out. A-, they don't pay for it. B- if it gets out of hand let the UAE's SF deal with it. C- if that is what the arab street (not the leaders) want, cool. Remove the rationale for protests.

[bolverk 30228]

9 minutes ago, statsman said:

What has kept Gaza from using that UNRWA funding to develop their own utilities? And a foreign office to protest Israeli actions?

Oh, yeah, the Hamas autocrats who rule Gaza. They take the money for themselves and leave the people dependent on Israel for needs a functioning government would provide. 
 
You don’t say anything, Bolverk, about the Iranian weapons smuggled in. One thing to remember- the missiles are for Israelis, sure, but the rifles and bullets? 90% of the time, Hamas has them in use for keeping the Gazan civilians in line. 

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you explicitly. The demand for smuggled-in weapons stems from the oppressive conditions Gazans have been living under since 1967. That's the fuel that feeds the fire. It's simple human psychology. Fuck, take a look at how Americans reacted to the beginning of the pandemic when they thought that an oppressive government was keeping them from going to Applebees or Supercuts. We, collectively, freaked the fuck out, marched in the streets with ARs, barged into state capitols, tried to kidnap governors, etc.

Ironically, those are the same conditions under which other assholes can take power for themselves. In this case, Hamas, which I'm obviously no fan of and which you should be aware of since I know you lurk the CR thread where I've pasted articles about Hamas's own oppression of the Gazans, including those that compare them to the Stasi and how Palestinians living in Gaza have protested against them.

Now, as to the Gazan infrastructure questions. Sure, Hamas is a wholly corrupt organization that has diverted international funding intended for humanitarian purposes. We expect that from corrupt autocrats to amass wealth and retain power. But you should also remember that groundwater is the only source for that strip of desert, and Israel has been limiting how much water can be pumped. Not only that, Israel controls the distribution of power and telecom within Gaza and disrupts their services at will.

[InkaUtexas 26793]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

What has kept Gaza from using that UNRWA funding to develop their own utilities? And a foreign office to protest Israeli actions?

Oh, yeah, the Hamas autocrats who rule Gaza. They take the money for themselves and leave the people dependent on Israel for needs a functioning government would provide. 
 
You don’t say anything, Bolverk, about the Iranian weapons smuggled in. One thing to remember- the missiles are for Israelis, sure, but the rifles and bullets? 90% of the time, Hamas has them in use for keeping the Gazan civilians in line. 

Palestine does have a Foreign Office. It sits in the UN as a non-voting member. Back in the PLO Days they had this. Arafat spoke before the General Assembly.

Utilities- The UN does not ever like shit handed over. Why? Causes the UN Jobs which equal funds which tend to go to internationals who work for or sell shit to the UN. One reason Bosnia worked was it was NOT the UN overseeing reconstruction and the peacekeeping. It was NATO and a US/EU led group.

Gaza and other long term crisis locations are careers for people. And they get paid damn well.

Edited September 27 by InkaUtexas

[Rex Kramer 1522]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, clearly, the only rational thing for Israel to do is.....kill Gazan civilians and actively pursue the goal of removing them all from the levant so that Israel can occupy the entire levant "from the river to the sea" (yeah, that's an exact quote from members of the Israeli hardline right since this war started).

Most of us would agree that Hamas has been and remains fuckers to the Gazan civilian population.  We just differ in our take on the "so, an approach where Israel amps up that suffering is a great idea" angle.  If you want to ensure perpetual hatred and conflict, and yes, future terrorism and murder of Israelis and jews, by all means, continue this process.  That violence will happen in different ways than it did on Oct 7th....but it will happen.  

Funny, that quote is used constantly by Palestinian and Arab leaders, and pro Palestinian protestors. Likud isn’t above reproach by any stretch, but this contrarian what aboutism is hilarious. 

Perpetual hatred and would-be conflict has been here since ‘47 and will persist. I’d rather a superior military eradicate terrorist threats. It is Hamas that has consistently put its non-combatants in harm’s way. Their deaths are on Hamas and not IDF. 

[Rex Kramer 1522]

23 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

100%. When I said this one person told me to go fuck my mother, so be careful. Surly hate is real. Sadly the retired Diplomat is deceased. Otherwise she would have kicked this said persons ass both over policy and on implementation.

A state, that is dependent on the Arabs is easily Israel's best way out. A-, they don't pay for it. B- if it gets out of hand let the UAE's SF deal with it. C- if that is what the arab street (not the leaders) want, cool. Remove the rationale for protests.

You gave more details than he did, and I was kidding about your mother (I’m sorry) because you quickly moved to labeling me a genocide advocate. I asked a bunch of questions of 956 and while I think he’s an astute poster on the topic, he continues to not answer and says my questions are irrelevant. They are wholly relevant to whether or not Israel would make such an offer, and whether or not Palestinians would accept. Without answering the questions (my location has many sub-questions not the least of which were does Jerusalem fit into the equation), your solution is a pipe dream. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

[InkaUtexas 26793]

13 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

You gave more details than he did, and I was kidding about your mother (I’m sorry) because you quickly moved to labeling me a genocide advocate. I asked a bunch of questions of 956 and while I think he’s an astute poster on the topic, he continues to not answer and says my questions are irrelevant. They are wholly relevant to whether or not Israel would make such an offer, and whether or not Palestinians would accept. Without answering the questions (my location has many sub-questions not the least of which were does Jerusalem fit into the equation), your solution is a pipe dream. 

Jerusalem could be an international city, since it is important to three major religions. This takes away the visible role the IDF plays blocking Palestinians from praying there and blocking Jewish groups from going to certain areas. Shitty role for the IDF troops. I bet they would love to give it over to another entity. Thus when Mahmoud goes boom or Jacob decides to go full Zionist, it is not the IDF's fault.

I have said two things. Stop the settlement expansion and stop the current level of force in Gaza. Small team tactics? Special ops? Mossad tricks? Yep, keep them up. Never let up the pressure.

The US committed one horrid atrocity we overlook in Afghanistan yes there are others, but this one is applicable. They hit a MSF Hospital in Kunduz with a AC-130. Were the Talibs on the wall? Yep. were those elements going to cause the collapse of the whole country? Nope.

So if you really want to get that target, wait until he is not next to a hospital. I suggest you read this book. Rise and Kill First. it gives a solid history of how Israel would react vs. shitheads (Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc.) and the legal recourse they had to go through internally. Now, it appears they do not have the same constraints. And for the record. The 1986 invasion of Lebanon did not succeed. Nor will another one. Just like the indiscriminate use of force in Gaza will not end it. Go kill the leaders wherever they are. Israel has to think about the international perception of their actions if they want to keep the dollars flowing and be seen as a modern nation.

Fuck OU.

 

 

Edited September 27 by InkaUtexas