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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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18 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Funny, that quote is used constantly by Palestinian and Arab leaders, and pro Palestinian protestors. Likud isn’t above reproach by any stretch, but this contrarian what aboutism is hilarious. 

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Palestinians chanting "to the river to the sea" (meaning "drive all jews out of the levant") and committing heinous violence against Israeli and jewish civilians....engenders rage, a violent response, and pure hatred....and UNDERSTANDABLY SO.  THAT'S THE NATURAL RESPONSE TO SUCH THINGS.

Being that it's the natural response to such things....why on earth would one expect that it wouldn't work exactly the same in both directions.  When Israelis, including influential figures within the actual government, say and do the exact same things....why wouldn't we expect Palestinians to react the same way?

And....IF our goal is to eliminate/sharply limit future violent action against Israeli and jewish people....how does this approach accomplish that, in the actual strategic long-term?  How is this not cutting one of Hydra's heads off (immensely satisfying) only to see one or more grow back in its place (so...not so satisfying)?

I'd like to see the Israeli state continue, surviving and indeed thriving.  

I'd like to see Israeli and jewish people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there, but it can indeed be minimized).

I'd like to see Palestinian people live safe and decent lives, surviving and indeed thriving, probably in an actual Palestinian state of some sort.

I'd like to see Palestinian people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there - some of them "internal" and homegrown, but it can indeed be minimized).

 

What Hamas did on October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It helped create new generational hatred.

Much of what Israel has done since October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It's helping create new generational hatred.

 

Rational people want us to get off of this deranged and horrific round-and-round-we-go merry go-round.....yet Palestinian and Israeli leadership are just making the merry go-round spin faster and faster and faster.  What baffles many of us is how anyone who purports to want a future of peace and security could call this current path "winning."

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48 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you explicitly. The demand for smuggled-in weapons stems from the oppressive conditions Gazans have been living under since 1967. That's the fuel that feeds the fire. It's simple human psychology. Fuck, take a look at how Americans reacted to the beginning of the pandemic when they thought that an oppressive government was keeping them from going to Applebees or Supercuts. We, collectively, freaked the fuck out, marched in the streets with ARs, barged into state capitols, tried to kidnap governors, etc.

Ironically, those are the same conditions under which other assholes can take power for themselves. In this case, Hamas, which I'm obviously no fan of and which you should be aware of since I know you lurk the CR thread where I've pasted articles about Hamas's own oppression of the Gazans, including those that compare them to the Stasi and how Palestinians living in Gaza have protested against them.

Now, as to the Gazan infrastructure questions. Sure, Hamas is a wholly corrupt organization that has diverted international funding intended for humanitarian purposes. We expect that from corrupt autocrats to amass wealth and retain power. But you should also remember that groundwater is the only source for that strip of desert, and Israel has been limiting how much water can be pumped. Not only that, Israel controls the distribution of power and telecom within Gaza and disrupts their services at will.

Ok. Now do Egypt. 

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Palestinians chanting "to the river to the sea" (meaning "drive all jews out of the levant") and committing heinous violence against Israeli and jewish civilians....engenders rage, a violent response, and pure hatred....and UNDERSTANDABLY SO.  THAT'S THE NATURAL RESPONSE TO SUCH THINGS.

Being that it's the natural response to such things....why on earth would one expect that it wouldn't work exactly the same in both directions.  When Israelis, including influential figures within the actual government, say and do the exact same things....why wouldn't we expect Palestinians to react the same way?

And....IF our goal is to eliminate/sharply limit future violent action against Israeli and jewish people....how does this approach accomplish that, in the actual strategic long-term?  How is this not cutting one of Hydra's heads off (immensely satisfying) only to see one or more grow back in its place (so...not so satisfying)?

I'd like to see the Israeli state continue, surviving and indeed thriving.  

I'd like to see Israeli and jewish people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there, but it can indeed be minimized).

I'd like to see Palestinian people live safe and decent lives, surviving and indeed thriving, probably in an actual Palestinian state of some sort.

I'd like to see Palestinian people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there - some of them "internal" and homegrown, but it can indeed be minimized).

 

What Hamas did on October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It helped create new generational hatred.

Much of what Israel has done since October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It's helping create new generational hatred.

 

Rational people want us to get off of this deranged and horrific round-and-round-we-go merry go-round.....yet Palestinian and Israeli leadership are just making the merry go-round spin faster and faster and faster.  What baffles many of us is how anyone who purports to want a future of peace and security could call this current path "winning."

Well 6-5 is a "winning season." ask aggy.

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

If he wants a comparison, please do Mexico, Sudan, Burma and a few other places the world deals with while you are at it.

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39 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

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