Israel-Hamas war thread

[Brisketexan 104197]

18 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Funny, that quote is used constantly by Palestinian and Arab leaders, and pro Palestinian protestors. Likud isn’t above reproach by any stretch, but this contrarian what aboutism is hilarious. 

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Palestinians chanting "to the river to the sea" (meaning "drive all jews out of the levant") and committing heinous violence against Israeli and jewish civilians....engenders rage, a violent response, and pure hatred....and UNDERSTANDABLY SO.  THAT'S THE NATURAL RESPONSE TO SUCH THINGS.

Being that it's the natural response to such things....why on earth would one expect that it wouldn't work exactly the same in both directions.  When Israelis, including influential figures within the actual government, say and do the exact same things....why wouldn't we expect Palestinians to react the same way?

And....IF our goal is to eliminate/sharply limit future violent action against Israeli and jewish people....how does this approach accomplish that, in the actual strategic long-term?  How is this not cutting one of Hydra's heads off (immensely satisfying) only to see one or more grow back in its place (so...not so satisfying)?

I'd like to see the Israeli state continue, surviving and indeed thriving.  

I'd like to see Israeli and jewish people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there, but it can indeed be minimized).

I'd like to see Palestinian people live safe and decent lives, surviving and indeed thriving, probably in an actual Palestinian state of some sort.

I'd like to see Palestinian people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there - some of them "internal" and homegrown, but it can indeed be minimized).

 

What Hamas did on October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It helped create new generational hatred.

Much of what Israel has done since October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It's helping create new generational hatred.

 

Rational people want us to get off of this deranged and horrific round-and-round-we-go merry go-round.....yet Palestinian and Israeli leadership are just making the merry go-round spin faster and faster and faster.  What baffles many of us is how anyone who purports to want a future of peace and security could call this current path "winning."

[statsman 5360]

48 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you explicitly. The demand for smuggled-in weapons stems from the oppressive conditions Gazans have been living under since 1967. That's the fuel that feeds the fire. It's simple human psychology. Fuck, take a look at how Americans reacted to the beginning of the pandemic when they thought that an oppressive government was keeping them from going to Applebees or Supercuts. We, collectively, freaked the fuck out, marched in the streets with ARs, barged into state capitols, tried to kidnap governors, etc.

Ironically, those are the same conditions under which other assholes can take power for themselves. In this case, Hamas, which I'm obviously no fan of and which you should be aware of since I know you lurk the CR thread where I've pasted articles about Hamas's own oppression of the Gazans, including those that compare them to the Stasi and how Palestinians living in Gaza have protested against them.

Now, as to the Gazan infrastructure questions. Sure, Hamas is a wholly corrupt organization that has diverted international funding intended for humanitarian purposes. We expect that from corrupt autocrats to amass wealth and retain power. But you should also remember that groundwater is the only source for that strip of desert, and Israel has been limiting how much water can be pumped. Not only that, Israel controls the distribution of power and telecom within Gaza and disrupts their services at will.

Ok. Now do Egypt. 

[InkaUtexas 25187]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Palestinians chanting "to the river to the sea" (meaning "drive all jews out of the levant") and committing heinous violence against Israeli and jewish civilians....engenders rage, a violent response, and pure hatred....and UNDERSTANDABLY SO.  THAT'S THE NATURAL RESPONSE TO SUCH THINGS.

Being that it's the natural response to such things....why on earth would one expect that it wouldn't work exactly the same in both directions.  When Israelis, including influential figures within the actual government, say and do the exact same things....why wouldn't we expect Palestinians to react the same way?

And....IF our goal is to eliminate/sharply limit future violent action against Israeli and jewish people....how does this approach accomplish that, in the actual strategic long-term?  How is this not cutting one of Hydra's heads off (immensely satisfying) only to see one or more grow back in its place (so...not so satisfying)?

I'd like to see the Israeli state continue, surviving and indeed thriving.  

I'd like to see Israeli and jewish people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there, but it can indeed be minimized).

I'd like to see Palestinian people live safe and decent lives, surviving and indeed thriving, probably in an actual Palestinian state of some sort.

I'd like to see Palestinian people be mostly safe from terrorism and violence (I say "mostly" because I'm a realist -- we live in a violent world, there will always be some bad actors out there - some of them "internal" and homegrown, but it can indeed be minimized).

 

What Hamas did on October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It helped create new generational hatred.

Much of what Israel has done since October 7th ultimately did not further those goals.  It's helping create new generational hatred.

 

Rational people want us to get off of this deranged and horrific round-and-round-we-go merry go-round.....yet Palestinian and Israeli leadership are just making the merry go-round spin faster and faster and faster.  What baffles many of us is how anyone who purports to want a future of peace and security could call this current path "winning."

Well 6-5 is a "winning season." ask aggy.

[bolverk 29197]

2 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ok. Now do Egypt. 

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

If he wants a comparison, please do Mexico, Sudan, Burma and a few other places the world deals with while you are at it.

[Brian Fantana 6651]

46 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ok. Now do Egypt. 

Holy fuck you are dumb.

[statsman 5360]

39 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Are you trying to move the goalposts again?

Do you or don't you support a fully sovereign Palestinian state? Yes or no.

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not contrarian whataboutism.  It's a fucking mirror.  That blanket supporters of everything Israel does should look into.

Nope. You are both sides-ing the fuck out of this and I won’t let you do it. You’re trying way too hard. 

[InkaUtexas 25187]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

The Arabs would prefer a safer Palestine than all of them as refugees. They would rather send money in than have them come out. They do not need to while Israel and to a lesser degree the international community (not just the UNRWA, the US has unilateral projects in both the West Bank and Gaza, primary development led by USAID) prop up the governments. They get to scream about injustice in public while cutting deals with Israelis in Europe. It feeds the street so the focus is on that vs. they corrupt nature of their own governments. It is also important to note we toss around the word Arab like we do Latino. There is a major difference among them. A Syrian is not a Yemeni who is not a Algerian who is not an Egyptian but they all talk shit about Israel and hate the Saudis.

The Arab nations, led probably by the GCC, could create the utility infrastructure for Gaza and probably turn a profit. But there lies 1 big issue to this that is overlooked. The brain drain. Are there electrical engineers who can maintain something built? With the Israeli control of imports, what port do you use? Ideally it would be based out of Egypt and an overland corridor, but the fear is under the current conditions the Palestinians would go south into the Sinai to escape both Israel and Hamas.

There are quite a few aggressive authoritarian states the world, including the US deals with. You could argue under the Likud Israel is led by an authoritarian party. Authoritarian does not mean a dictator. So lets start with Russia. Yep, up until Ukraine we all dealt with them, and some western companies and non-western countries we like continue to do so. India and China. Currently we can add El Salvador under Bukele, Hungary under Orban, South Africa under the ANC in South Africa, Egypt with the fall of the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas' buddy), etc.... Shit, add the PRI in Mexico.

Creating a Palestinian state, as noted, would be a nation against a nation if they attacked. If Hamas is the leadership, well it is still a nation-state. The world would expect them to behave like one. Now they can play the Occupied Territory card all they want with no action against them. take it away from them.

Using the Kurds as an example. Post Saddam, though they do no allow Kurdistan to be an independent nation, does give them a lot more say in their day to day lives. Relations really changed. So much that the Kurds saved Iraq's ass from ISIS. Then look at Turkey. They are dicks to the Kurds, so the PKK blows up shit in Turkey. I would prefer to see an independent Kurdistan. But by giving them more of a voice and recognition (there is a US Consulate in Erbil) the animosity in less than one generation has decreased.

[Rex Kramer 1260]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

You had a long post about how Israel was holding back Gazan development. Gaza has another border, with Egypt. I thought that was worth noting, during all the speculation about Arab state stepping in and helping with necessary services- there isn’t really anything stopping them now. I guess they figure the UNRWA and Israel got it. 
 
As to your question-I support a sovereign liberal democracy Palestinian nation. As I posted before, I don’t think the world needs another aggressive authoritarian state (but, that might be what we get). 

They know exactly what you mean. But you know Egypt won’t get shade from “reasonable” people. A sovereign liberal democratic Palestine would never happen in my children’s lifetimes. In their poorly defined pipe dream, Palestine would be iron fist ruled by corrupt leaders, and become a serious threat to Israel in short order.  Israel would react predictably, shut those savages down, and the world would cry foul. Every one of these motherfuckers posting here knows it. 

[InkaUtexas 25187]

18 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

They know exactly what you mean. But you know Egypt won’t get shade from “reasonable” people. A sovereign liberal democratic Palestine would never happen in my children’s lifetimes. In their poorly defined pipe dream, Palestine would be iron fist ruled by corrupt leaders, and become a serious threat to Israel in short order.  Israel would react predictably, shut those savages down, and the world would cry foul. Every one of these motherfuckers posting here knows it. 

As long as they are occupied they do not have to answer to the world. Make them behave if they want aid. We do that to kim jong dick fuck. we were doing that to Iran. We do it to Venezuela. Why do we give in to Gaza? Cuz they can rightfully play the occupied status.

Look, no one on this board bitched if Israel blew up a building full of Hamas/Hezbollah/IRG in Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank or Syria. I think the discussion is don't fucking hit the hospital. Hold your troops to international standards. Don't bend to their level. Hold individuals who do bend down to the Hamas level, desecrate bodies, rape, etc accountable like the US and UK did to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and currently the Canadians and Aussies are doing to theirs for crimes committed by individuals. And what Taliban and Iraqi insurgents of the various sects did was atrocious.

In Israel's case it has the appearance that this is State sponsored and led.

[staboner 4955]

channel 5 dropped a vid in tel aviv 

as per usual, i got nothing. just fucking suffering for everyone

[Parliament 14066]

Back to the news and current events…

Losta Israeli air strikes tonight.  From the looks of the fireballs they’re hitting illegal fireworks factories in people’s basements. 

[Brian Fantana 6651]

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

They know exactly what you mean. But you know Egypt won’t get shade from “reasonable” people. A sovereign liberal democratic Palestine would never happen in my children’s lifetimes. In their poorly defined pipe dream, Palestine would be iron fist ruled by corrupt leaders, and become a serious threat to Israel in short order.  Israel would react predictably, shut those savages down, and the world would cry foul. Every one of these motherfuckers posting here knows it. 

It's absolutely hilarious that he doesn't see that this is pure racism. Palestinians/Arabs can't be reasonable. They're orcs. It's in their DNA, don't you see? They're "savages". The only reason he isn't saying "sand n*****s" is he would get banned. It's the same reason he would never acknowledge or answer any questions about the IDF soldiers that raped Palestinian prisoners to death. He thinks they're less than human, straight up, and those kinds of retaliatory actions are acceptable. If you engage him on this topic in any way, you have to understand that his position is purely based on racism. That he's as dumb as a fucking hammer is just icing on the cake.

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Nope. You are both sides-ing the fuck out of this and I won’t let you do it. You’re trying way too hard. 

This post made me laugh so hard I nearly dropped my phone. Seriously the dumbest person on Surly. The mental gymnastics are incredible.

e: Sorry, I won't address Rex anymore it's just too goddamn funny to pass up sometimes.

Edited September 28 by Brian Fantana

[Anastasis 23286]

7 hours ago, bolverk said:

Israel controls all utilities in Gaza, including water, electricity, and telecoms, and they've rationed the shit out of it in punitive measures to the extent that Gazans have been made to suffer -- even in times of peace. In addition, Gazan fishermen have not even been allowed to fish in their own territorial waters nor have Palestinians been allowed access to their own gas fields in the Mediterranean Sea. They've been under a near-total blockade (no scare quotes needed) for two decades. 

Now, imagine whether more Gazans would've moderated and not felt the need to resort to armed revolt if there were no blockade. I guess we'll never know...

Every functional state requires the ability to control their borders, land, resources and freedom of movement. I am quite certain that the natural gas reserves that sit under gazan territorial waters are involved in the calculus of all the parties involved. 

[Conqueeftador 123]

 

[Brisketexan 104197]

Nope. You are both sides-ing the fuck out of this and I won’t let you do it. You’re trying way too hard. 

Your sputtering rage posting is interesting to watch.
Especially when it leads you to post something as utterly stupid as this. I don’t have to “try” at all. I LITERALLY can quote “from the river to the sea” from both Hamas leadership and Israeli leadership. No “trying” at all - it’s just sitting there for anyone with open eyes to point out.
Some posters on this thread have had the honesty to admit their goal: complete ethnic cleansing if all Palestinians from the levant. Significant voices in Israeli leadership have said the same. Kinda funny that you call for all of the actions to accomplish that…but then say that’s not your goal. Just finish the thought. You’ll feel better, and you won’t have to keep lying to the rest of us.

[Rex Kramer 1260]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Your sputtering rage posting is interesting to watch.
Especially when it leads you to post something as utterly stupid as this. I don’t have to “try” at all. I LITERALLY can quote “from the river to the sea” from both Hamas leadership and Israeli leadership. No “trying” at all - it’s just sitting there for anyone with open eyes to point out.
Some posters on this thread have had the honesty to admit their goal: complete ethnic cleansing if all Palestinians from the levant. Significant voices in Israeli leadership have said the same. Kinda funny that you call for all of the actions to accomplish that…but then say that’s not your goal. Just finish the thought. You’ll feel better, and you won’t have to keep lying to the rest of us.

There it is.  The ethnic cleansing advocacy accusation.  I love it.  I have not heard Israeli leadership use that phrase.  Only terrorists and their idiot supporters.  There is no comparison, yet you make it.

 

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Make them behave if they want aid.

I suggest they demonstrate they can behave under competent home rule leadership before granting them a fucking state.

[Brian Fantana 6651]

[Brisketexan 104197]

I suggest they demonstrate they can behave under competent home rule leadership before granting them a fucking state.

Huh. I imagined it when the national security minister said this stuff:

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said in a faction meeting on Monday.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”


He has said similar shit before and since. He’s not the only Israeli official to do so. And he’s FAR from the only Israeli to do so; many Israelis have openly advocated for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and settlement of the area by Israelis.

Like I said, I don’t have to try at all. There is a material and vocal movement in Israel to remove all Palestinians from Gaza. Their statements are out there, loud and proud. I’m not sure why that bothers you so.

[Brian Fantana 6651]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Huh. I imagined it when the national security minister said this stuff:

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said in a faction meeting on Monday.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”


He has said similar shit before and since. He’s not the only Israeli official to do so. And he’s FAR from the only Israeli to do so; many Israelis have openly advocated for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and settlement of the area by Israelis.

Like I said, I don’t have to try at all. There is a material and vocal movement in Israel to remove all Palestinians from Gaza. Their statements are out there, loud and proud. I’m not sure why that bothers you so.

I mean Bibi has literally said the words out loud. He doesn't wanna know, you're not gonna get through that fat head.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

38 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

There it is.  The ethnic cleansing advocacy accusation.  I love it.  I have not heard Israeli leadership use that phrase.  Only terrorists and their idiot supporters.  There is no comparison, yet you make it.

 

I suggest they demonstrate they can behave under competent home rule leadership before granting them a fucking state.

The American Colonies went through a lot less, and we revolted.

Building a state with competent home rule requires a bit of time and some fucking breathing room. Maybe the ability to make your own trade deals? Purchase your own food?

I get it. You don't want the Palestinians to disappear. You just want them to disappear from Gaza/West Bank.

[Rex Kramer 1260]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Huh. I imagined it when the national security minister said this stuff:

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” Ben Gvir said in a faction meeting on Monday.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”


He has said similar shit before and since. He’s not the only Israeli official to do so. And he’s FAR from the only Israeli to do so; many Israelis have openly advocated for removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and settlement of the area by Israelis.

Like I said, I don’t have to try at all. There is a material and vocal movement in Israel to remove all Palestinians from Gaza. Their statements are out there, loud and proud. I’m not sure why that bothers you so.

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. No money quote refrained by millions of antisemites. No context (was this during the current invasion?). No link. You’re wasting my time. 

 

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

The American Colonies went through a lot less, and we revolted.

Building a state with competent home rule requires a bit of time and some fucking breathing room. Maybe the ability to make your own trade deals? Purchase your own food?

I get it. You don't want the Palestinians to disappear. You just want them to disappear from Gaza/West Bank.

Terrible analogy. Did we lob millions of rockets over the Atlantic?  Did we have able leadership?

[Brisketexan 104197]

I’m on my phone, dude. You can look it up. Yes, it was during the current war.

And yes, Bibi has used the exact term (“from the river to the sea”).

FFS, now you’re just being a dishonest piece of shit. Israelis, including Israeli leadership, have plainly called for Palestinians to be gone from Gaza. You know…the literal definition of ethnic cleansing. And you contort yourself by saying “ahh, but that was on a Tuesday, and today’s a Friday!”, or some similar stupid shit. Jesus.

[Rex Kramer 1260]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m on my phone, dude. You can look it up. Yes, it was during the current war.

And yes, Bibi has used the exact term (“from the river to the sea”).

FFS, now you’re just being a dishonest piece of shit. Israelis, including Israeli leadership, have plainly called for Palestinians to be gone from Gaza. You know…the literal definition of ethnic cleansing. And you contort yourself by saying “ahh, but that was on a Tuesday, and today’s a Friday!”, or some similar stupid shit. Jesus.

First, I didn’t know bibi said that. Second, what you posted did NOT say that. Third, his quotes at the very least make sense given itd be more humane if a temporary migration while they do what they need to do. Fourth, talk of Gaza settlements and Bibi’s quote are totally tone deaf and should be beneath them. Finally, there is zero comparison to what was quoted and the use of “from the river to the sea” phrase by the other side. Totally disingenuous at best and you’re desperate to portray Israel as the bad guy.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

4 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. No money quote refrained by millions of antisemites. No context (was this during the current invasion?). No link. You’re wasting my time. 

 

Terrible analogy. Did we lob millions of rockets over the Atlantic?  Did we have able leadership?

WE stole cannon and bombarded an English City on Colonial Soil. Ya know, Boston. We attacked a seperate colony. Ya know, Modern Canada. We raided British commerce at sea. Quite a bit. Leadership yes, able, well in some areas. There was quite a bit of speculation, corruption, etc.

Have you ever read history and sat back and thought about it? And I offered a reading suggestion, a book that is pretty Pro Israel and I agree with the premise. You did not comment on it. You also did not say if you agreed the Palestinians should not be there.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

4 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

itd be more humane if a temporary migration while they do what they need to do.

Like the Seminole Indians. We promise we will let you come on back, just let us build on it for a few years. We will even have casinos for you.

[Brian Fantana 6651]

I'm gonna fucking piss myself

[Brisketexan 104197]

First, I didn’t know bibi said that. Second, what you posted did NOT say that. Third, his quotes at the very least make sense given itd be more humane if a temporary migration while they do what they need to do. Fourth, talk of Gaza settlements and Bibi’s quote are totally tone deaf and should be beneath them. Finally, there is zero comparison to what was quoted and the use of “from the river to the sea” phrase by the other side. Totally disingenuous at best and you’re desperate to portray Israel as the bad guy.

I’m not desperate to portray Israel as the bad guy. My posting history on this and related threads has consistently stated that I strongly support Israel’s right to exist, its right to self defense, its right to respond to Oct 7 - I’m not gonna rehash all of that here for the 30th time just because you have blinders on.
Likewise, I’ve been unambiguous in my judgment of Hamas and hezbollah.

I actually want Israel to end up in a good place.

And I also have open eyes and ears that have seen both rhetoric and action from Israel that fall dead-on on the ethnic cleansing square in the board. Israel shouldn’t do that. It’s wrong, it hurts their cause…all the things that quite a few folks other than me have noted. And you dismiss it with a hand wave. Read the discussion, found easily with a cursory google search, regarding Ben Gvir’s remarks. They were not made in the context of “maybe it would be nice if the Palestinians took a little vacation while we kill Hamas, then they can come back.”” Dude. Come on. Stop.
Oh, and those are just Ben Gvir’s remarks. There are plenty of other Israelis directly calling for the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza, to be replaced by Jewish settlers. They aren’t hidden - they’ve given tv interviews saying just that, FFS.

[Rex Kramer 1260]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

WE stole cannon and bombarded an English City on Colonial Soil. Ya know, Boston. We attacked a seperate colony. Ya know, Modern Canada. We raided British commerce at sea. Quite a bit. Leadership yes, able, well in some areas. There was quite a bit of speculation, corruption, etc.

Have you ever read history and sat back and thought about it? And I offered a reading suggestion, a book that is pretty Pro Israel and I agree with the premise. You did not comment on it. You also did not say if you agreed the Palestinians should not be there.

Revolutionary War analogy is terrible. I didn’t comment because I haven’t read the book and have nothing to say. If Palestinians can cease firing rockets and committing terror then of course they can stay. 

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

Like the Seminole Indians. We promise we will let you come on back, just let us build on it for a few years. We will even have casinos for you.

I was attempting to understand the rationale for the words he chose, which makes some sense (in a vacuum; I know what that guy wants) in the context of a war. That particular quote is a far cry from “from the river to the sea.”

54 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m not desperate to portray Israel as the bad guy. My posting history on this and related threads has consistently stated that I strongly support Israel’s right to exist, its right to self defense, its right to respond to Oct 7 - I’m not gonna rehash all of that here for the 30th time just because you have blinders on.
Likewise, I’ve been unambiguous in my judgment of Hamas and hezbollah.

I actually want Israel to end up in a good place.

And I also have open eyes and ears that have seen both rhetoric and action from Israel that fall dead-on on the ethnic cleansing square in the board. Israel shouldn’t do that. It’s wrong, it hurts their cause…all the things that quite a few folks other than me have noted. And you dismiss it with a hand wave. Read the discussion, found easily with a cursory google search, regarding Ben Gvir’s remarks. They were not made in the context of “maybe it would be nice if the Palestinians took a little vacation while we kill Hamas, then they can come back.”” Dude. Come on. Stop.
Oh, and those are just Ben Gvir’s remarks. There are plenty of other Israelis directly calling for the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza, to be replaced by Jewish settlers. They aren’t hidden - they’ve given tv interviews saying just that, FFS.

I know your posting history on the matter. You’re critical of Hamas, and fair to Israel where it’s obviously merited. But you spend more time going to great lengths to show the board you’re more critical of Israel, and you lose your way with bad sub-points. See above on my full thoughts on the Ben Gvir quote. Your equivalency on the quote you mentioned is a terrible point. 

[Brian Fantana 6651]

38 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m not desperate to portray Israel as the bad guy. My posting history on this and related threads has consistently stated that I strongly support Israel’s right to exist, its right to self defense, its right to respond to Oct 7 - I’m not gonna rehash all of that here for the 30th time just because you have blinders on.
Likewise, I’ve been unambiguous in my judgment of Hamas and hezbollah.

I actually want Israel to end up in a good place.

And I also have open eyes and ears that have seen both rhetoric and action from Israel that fall dead-on on the ethnic cleansing square in the board. Israel shouldn’t do that. It’s wrong, it hurts their cause…all the things that quite a few folks other than me have noted. And you dismiss it with a hand wave. Read the discussion, found easily with a cursory google search, regarding Ben Gvir’s remarks. They were not made in the context of “maybe it would be nice if the Palestinians took a little vacation while we kill Hamas, then they can come back.”” Dude. Come on. Stop.
Oh, and those are just Ben Gvir’s remarks. There are plenty of other Israelis directly calling for the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza, to be replaced by Jewish settlers. They aren’t hidden - they’ve given tv interviews saying just that, FFS.

Human beings are shades of grey. Rex consistently has, and is right now, showing a very basic human tendency to try and analyze everything in a very black and white way. Grey is too complex and too uncertain. Black and white is simpler, even if it's not a true reflection of reality. It's a very simple, yet very powerful, defense mechanism called splitting in therapeutic terms.

In some ways, I'm sympathetic to his point of view. It's much easier, as a denizen of a Western country, to view Israel as an unambiguous good that must be championed and Palestinians (and by extension, the Arab world at large) as an unambiguous bad that must be destroyed. Drilling down past the surface, past what we've all been fed by Western media for our entire lives (or in Armybrat's case, a small percentage of his) uncovers a lot of uncomfortable truths about the situation in Israel, and the region in general, that paint everyone involved (including us, especially us) with many different shades of grey. At some point, it becomes far too difficult to view the conflict in such black and white terms.

Most people are either content to simply lap up the mixture of truths, half-truths, deflections, and flat out bald-faced lies that Western media feeds us, and shove every actor involved into neat little black and white boxes. I try to stay as informed as I have time to in order to keep myself seeing the shades of grey rather than the black and white. I try to take as optimistic an approach as I can to the future of Israel and occupied Palestine, but it's difficult to say the least. Most people, again, choose to see only the black and white and conclude that some kind of nebulously defined total victory is necessary, hence the multiple posters in this thread that advocate for ethnic cleansing with their full chest (some without even realizing it, it seems). As if repeating the mistakes of the past is a way to a better future.

I will say that I greatly appreciate @InkaUtexas's posting, yours, @bolverk and others, and @956 Worldwide though we frequently disagree. Inka in particular is extremely well read on the subject and the history of the region and I enjoy his insights every day. You yourself held a fairly black and white view of this subject nearly a year ago, albeit a more sympathetic and humane view than a lot of other people do, but you're smart/humble enough to seek out knowledge that may alter your world view when you're unsure of yourself. People like Rex purposefully avoid knowledge that may alter their world view, because it's too upsetting. I don't even necessarily fault them all that much for it, because it is a demonstrably hard thing to do. Hell, I should know, 15-20 years ago I was a dumbass central TX hillbilly, listening to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Mark fuckin' dumbshit Levin. Hooting and hollering when we were slaughtering a million people in Iraq based on a pure lie. I don't even like to think about all the dumb shit I believed.

This is not to place myself on a pedestal above. I have plenty of faults, blind spots, and knowledge gaps. I learn shit every day reading this board. I am usually very bad at articulating my thoughts in a way that isn't frequently abrasive or otherwise difficult to digest by others. I frequently think I'm a lot more well read on a particular aspect of X subject than I am, and often have to stop and take a break to better inform myself or collect myself. I wish I had a fraction of your, or Inkas, or @SL Xpress, or any number of other posters' ability to elucidate my thoughts in any sort of consistently palatable way.

Anyway, I have no idea why I wrote this post.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

8 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Revolutionary War analogy is terrible. I didn’t comment because I haven’t read the book and have nothing to say. If Palestinians can cease firing rockets and committing terror then of course they can stay.

No it is not. so ask WHY do they fire rockets? Israel has Iron Dome, backed by plenty of US support. I am great with that. It sucks they need it. And in the past they have taken these systems  out but assasinating the humans behind bringing them in. Israel has worked with Sudan (a Muslim nation) and Egypt (Muslim and Arab) to interdict the crap coming from Iran. Syria, well we all want Al Asad to fall into a deep as hole. Sucks he is holding on.

Read it is what I suggested. I did not think you had, and few have. I read it when working on a legal project about the use of force in Afghanistan. We learned that fire and forget drones pissed off more Afgans than did good and adopted parts of the early Israeli liquidation program. Yeah, i know, a non-threatening word for blowing the shit out of an asshole. To take out a launcher location when identified (and it did not have to be in active firing mode) it was blown up. But it was a hell fire vs. a 1000 lb bomb. One is targeted, the other flattens a block.

I don't see anyone saying Israel should not retaliate. They, and me are saying, do it more tactically. I mean, don't tell people to go to a certain safe area, and then bomb it cuz there was a small group of HAMAS dicks. They are everywhere. I concede it. Shoot them in the face. Is that not why your infantry is there? Do you snipe with a 120MM tank gun?

[InkaUtexas 25187]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Human beings are shades of grey. Rex consistently has, and is right now, showing a very basic human tendency to try and analyze everything in a very black and white way. Grey is too complex and too uncertain. Black and white is simpler, even if it's not a true reflection of reality. It's a very simple, yet very powerful, defense mechanism called splitting in therapeutic terms.

In some ways, I'm sympathetic to his point of view. It's much easier, as a denizen of a Western country, to view Israel as an unambiguous good that must be championed and Palestinians (and by extension, the Arab world at large) as an unambiguous bad that must be destroyed. Drilling down past the surface, past what we've all been fed by Western media for our entire lives (or in Armybrat's case, a small percentage of his) uncovers a lot of uncomfortable truths about the situation in Israel, and the region in general, that paint everyone involved (including us, especially us) with many different shades of grey. At some point, it becomes far too difficult to view the conflict in such black and white terms.

Most people are either content to simply lap up the mixture of truths, half-truths, deflections, and flat out bald-faced lies that Western media feeds us, and shove every actor involved into neat little black and white boxes. I try to stay as informed as I have time to in order to keep myself seeing the shades of grey rather than the black and white. I try to take as optimistic an approach as I can to the future of Israel and occupied Palestine, but it's difficult to say the least. Most people, again, choose to see only the black and white and conclude that some kind of nebulously defined total victory is necessary, hence the multiple posters in this thread that advocate for ethnic cleansing with their full chest (some without even realizing it, it seems). As if repeating the mistakes of the past is a way to a better future.

I will say that I greatly appreciate @InkaUtexas's posting, yours, @bolverk and others, and @956 Worldwide though we frequently disagree. Inka in particular is extremely well read on the subject and the history of the region and I enjoy his insights every day. You yourself held a fairly black and white view of this subject nearly a year ago, albeit a more sympathetic and humane view than a lot of other people do, but you're smart/humble enough to seek out knowledge that may alter your world view when you're unsure of yourself. People like Rex purposefully avoid knowledge that may alter their world view, because it's too upsetting. I don't even necessarily fault them all that much for it, because it is a demonstrably hard thing to do. Hell, I should know, 15-20 years ago I was a dumbass central TX hillbilly, listening to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Mark fuckin' dumbshit Levin. Hooting and hollering when we were slaughtering a million people in Iraq based on a pure lie. I don't even like to think about all the dumb shit I believed.

This is not to place myself on a pedestal above. I have plenty of faults, blind spots, and knowledge gaps. I learn shit every day reading this board. I am usually very bad at articulating my thoughts in a way that isn't frequently abrasive or otherwise difficult to digest by others. I frequently think I'm a lot more well read on a particular aspect of X subject than I am, and often have to stop and take a break to better inform myself or collect myself. I wish I had a fraction of your, or Inkas, or @SL Xpress, or any number of other posters' ability to elucidate my thoughts in any sort of consistently palatable way.

Anyway, I have no idea why I wrote this post.

Cuz you touch yourself.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

And quick note after Fantana's post. He should read the book as well. It gives a good look into how evil the anti-Israel dicks are, how well organized, how committed, and how they do use the civilians. They hide in plain site for the most part. It would be a great bathroom book for @Brisketexan. He could go through it after a few late night Taco Bell visits.

@Brian Fantana you mention Western Media. Do you think Al Jazeera does not push an agenda? The Hamas leaders live in Doha. AJ is owned by the government of Qatar. Good, independent media does not really exist. From anyside, so read them all and as you said, go gray.

 

[Rex Kramer 1260]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

No it is not. so ask WHY do they fire rockets? Israel has Iron Dome, backed by plenty of US support. I am great with that. It sucks they need it. And in the past they have taken these systems  out but assasinating the humans behind bringing them in. Israel has worked with Sudan (a Muslim nation) and Egypt (Muslim and Arab) to interdict the crap coming from Iran. Syria, well we all want Al Asad to fall into a deep as hole. Sucks he is holding on.

Read it is what I suggested. I did not think you had, and few have. I read it when working on a legal project about the use of force in Afghanistan. We learned that fire and forget drones pissed off more Afgans than did good and adopted parts of the early Israeli liquidation program. Yeah, i know, a non-threatening word for blowing the shit out of an asshole. To take out a launcher location when identified (and it did not have to be in active firing mode) it was blown up. But it was a hell fire vs. a 1000 lb bomb. One is targeted, the other flattens a block.

I don't see anyone saying Israel should not retaliate. They, and me are saying, do it more tactically. I mean, don't tell people to go to a certain safe area, and then bomb it cuz there was a small group of HAMAS dicks. They are everywhere. I concede it. Shoot them in the face. Is that not why your infantry is there? Do you snipe with a 120MM tank gun?

Colonialist revolution is a really really bad analogy. On the rest of your post, okay?  I don’t disagree, necessarily, with anything you wrote.  I’ll read the book, but I think you have me confused with someone else. Are you mistaking me for someone that cannot be critical of Israel, or the way they’ve conducted their Gaza campaign?  Because we were talking about the fantasy of Israel granting Palestinians a state, I was starting to argue why it would never happen, and now you’re treating me as if I’m IDF and jerk off to Bibi or something. I don’t get it. 

[Brian Fantana 6651]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And quick note after Fantana's post. He should read the book as well. It gives a good look into how evil the anti-Israel dicks are, how well organized, how committed, and how they do use the civilians. They hide in plain site for the most part. It would be a great bathroom book for @Brisketexan. He could go through it after a few late night Taco Bell visits.

@Brian Fantana you mention Western Media. Do you think Al Jazeera does not push an agenda? The Hamas leaders live in Doha. AJ is owned by the government of Qatar. Good, independent media does not really exist. From anyside, so read them all and as you said, go gray.

 

I will, I already ordered it lol. And yeah, you're 100% right, every media outlet has an agenda. I try to do exactly that.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

7 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Colonialist revolution is a really really bad analogy. On the rest of your post, okay?  I don’t disagree, necessarily, with anything you wrote.  I’ll read the book, but I think you have me confused with someone else. Are you mistaking me for someone that cannot be critical of Israel, or the way they’ve conducted their Gaza campaign?  Because we were talking about the fantasy of Israel granting Palestinians a state, I was starting to argue why it would never happen, and now you’re treating me as if I’m IDF and jerk off to Bibi or something. I don’t get it. 

Not my intent at all. I just don't recall much of that criticism.

History changes. There will be a two state solution. Today there was a group of 90 nations who are going to convene a meeting moving towards that. Head of it is Norway's FM and Saudi FM is backing it. Baseline is the 2002 protocols. So it is  a reset Israel agreed to already. Hamas/Fatah fucked it up. Who knows what will happen. In 1939 many dreamed of a Jewish state. Few thought it would happen.

Espen Barth Eide told The Associated Press that “there is a growing consensus in the international community from Western countries, from Arab countries, from the Global South, that we need to establish a Palestinian Authority, a Palestinian government, a Palestinian state — and the Palestinian state has to be recognized.”

Why Norway?  (my bold)

Norway is the guarantor of the 1993 Oslo Accords, hailed as a breakthrough in the decades-long conflict between Arabs and Jews, which created the Palestinian Authority and set up self-rule areas in the Palestinian Authority. Eide said more than 30 years later, Israel’s “occupation” is continuing, and there there are no negotiations leading to a final settlement and an independent Palestinian state — which led to Norway’s decision in May to recognize a Palestinian state.

Now, 149 of the U.N.’s 193 member nations have recognized a Palestinian state. Eide urged all countries “to contribute to universal recognition” and strengthen Palestinian institutions so they live up to the expectations of people in the West Bank and are prepared to return to Gaza: “We want one Palestine, not different Palestines,” he said.

https://apnews.com/article/un-norway-palestinian-state-saudi-arabia-eu-c9116cdb5f23574e668de65f6a7aca71

 

Bad analogy? Give me a good one. Only one I can think of is the Greek/Turkish population exchange.

[956 Worldwide 34204]

Petition to change title to “Israel-Hamas-Hezbollah War Thread @immamac.

Fuck this softboi. 
 

[956 Worldwide 34204]

 

[PRONG HORN 3095]

[HellesBier 184]

4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Human beings are shades of grey. Rex consistently has, and is right now, showing a very basic human tendency to try and analyze everything in a very black and white way. Grey is too complex and too uncertain. Black and white is simpler, even if it's not a true reflection of reality. It's a very simple, yet very powerful, defense mechanism called splitting in therapeutic terms.

In some ways, I'm sympathetic to his point of view. It's much easier, as a denizen of a Western country, to view Israel as an unambiguous good that must be championed and Palestinians (and by extension, the Arab world at large) as an unambiguous bad that must be destroyed. Drilling down past the surface, past what we've all been fed by Western media for our entire lives (or in Armybrat's case, a small percentage of his) uncovers a lot of uncomfortable truths about the situation in Israel, and the region in general, that paint everyone involved (including us, especially us) with many different shades of grey. At some point, it becomes far too difficult to view the conflict in such black and white terms.

Most people are either content to simply lap up the mixture of truths, half-truths, deflections, and flat out bald-faced lies that Western media feeds us, and shove every actor involved into neat little black and white boxes. I try to stay as informed as I have time to in order to keep myself seeing the shades of grey rather than the black and white. I try to take as optimistic an approach as I can to the future of Israel and occupied Palestine, but it's difficult to say the least. Most people, again, choose to see only the black and white and conclude that some kind of nebulously defined total victory is necessary, hence the multiple posters in this thread that advocate for ethnic cleansing with their full chest (some without even realizing it, it seems). As if repeating the mistakes of the past is a way to a better future.

I will say that I greatly appreciate @InkaUtexas's posting, yours, @bolverk and others, and @956 Worldwide though we frequently disagree. Inka in particular is extremely well read on the subject and the history of the region and I enjoy his insights every day. You yourself held a fairly black and white view of this subject nearly a year ago, albeit a more sympathetic and humane view than a lot of other people do, but you're smart/humble enough to seek out knowledge that may alter your world view when you're unsure of yourself. People like Rex purposefully avoid knowledge that may alter their world view, because it's too upsetting. I don't even necessarily fault them all that much for it, because it is a demonstrably hard thing to do. Hell, I should know, 15-20 years ago I was a dumbass central TX hillbilly, listening to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Mark fuckin' dumbshit Levin. Hooting and hollering when we were slaughtering a million people in Iraq based on a pure lie. I don't even like to think about all the dumb shit I believed.

This is not to place myself on a pedestal above. I have plenty of faults, blind spots, and knowledge gaps. I learn shit every day reading this board. I am usually very bad at articulating my thoughts in a way that isn't frequently abrasive or otherwise difficult to digest by others. I frequently think I'm a lot more well read on a particular aspect of X subject than I am, and often have to stop and take a break to better inform myself or collect myself. I wish I had a fraction of your, or Inkas, or @SL Xpress, or any number of other posters' ability to elucidate my thoughts in any sort of consistently palatable way.

Anyway, I have no idea why I wrote this post.

This is a good post. I myself become more moderate daily, skeptical of everything I hear, understanding that decisions are made only to benefit govts which are owned by individuals/corporations and we are fed the lies to justify them.

[Newdoc 3425]

4 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Hamas/Fatah fucked it up.

If the moderate factions in Israel and Palestine could keep their radical members out of this, then maybe other nations could broker a better deal. But this probably needs to be led by outside peace brokers who actually want peace, not power or the capital gains from it. But it shows a lot of hubris to think you can waltz in an undo thousands of years of religious and cultural conflict. If Abram would have resisted diddling the help (after his wife put him up to it), the Middle East wouldn't be in this mess.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Petition to change title to “Israel-Hamas-Hezbollah War Thread @immamac.

Fuck this softboi. 
 

Dude, it is Surly. We can do something better than that for a name.

Yep, fuck this POS. Long time coming. This has been a master class of removing the C-C of your enemy performed by the IDF.

[InkaUtexas 25187]

2 hours ago, Newdoc said:

If the moderate factions in Israel and Palestine could keep their radical members out of this, then maybe other nations could broker a better deal. But this probably needs to be led by outside peace brokers who actually want peace, not power or the capital gains from it. But it shows a lot of hubris to think you can waltz in an undo thousands of years of religious and cultural conflict. If Abram would have resisted diddling the help (after his wife put him up to it), the Middle East wouldn't be in this mess.

Yes and yes. But the issue is external elements don't really give a big fuck. For most it goes into the Would be Nice category of concerns.

Maybe the start is tell people stop taking the bible so literally. But that is not ever going to happen. So need to look at other areas. Economy is #1. Fuckers have jobs to damn busy to sit smoking shisha and plot how to blow shit up.

[Anastasis 23286]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Maybe the start is tell people stop taking the bible so literally.

Maybe the start is to stop acting like a geopolitical series of event from the last 80 or so years is a timeless representation of the struggle between good and evil. Or if we must do so, at least understand what the evil is. 

[InkaUtexas 25187]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe the start is to stop acting like a geopolitical series of event from the last 80 or so years is a timeless representation of the struggle between good and evil. Or if we must do so, at least understand what the evil is. 

Yeah, agree. I had a feeling you would come along and correct me.

[Laxtonto 11890]

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

So Israel has all of their comms, all of their logistic intel, and knows all the moves they are trying to make. This was just a subtle reminder to Iran that they are still completely compromised and anything you try to sneak into Lebanon they already know about and they can destroy at a whim. Save face and don't do anything foolish.

Iran will of course do some small level of retaliatory strike, which Israel will withstand and then Iran can then accept the fact that their proxy in Lebanon is gone. Or Iran can go all out and Israel will do something similar to Iran. Funny enough, Iran has already moved the Supreme Leader to an undisclosed hardened location...

[Anastasis 23286]

52 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yeah, agree. I had a feeling you would come along and correct me.

The foolish notion is that this has anything to do with the bible. That's not on you, that is a fundagelical heresy deeply embedded in the American psyche. 

[nineliveslost 2700]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

The foolish notion is that this has anything to do with the bible. That's not on you, that is a fundagelical heresy deeply embedded in the American psyche. 

[InkaUtexas 25187]

40 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The foolish notion is that this has anything to do with the bible. That's not on you, that is a fundagelical heresy deeply embedded in the American psyche. 

Agree. Western Europe way before hitler were massive dicks to Jews yet we tend to forget that historical fact. I mean, Jews moved to the Levant to get the fuck away from Europe. They preferred to have to deal with Palestinian issues than monarchies and midget authoritarians with industrial complexes behind them.