Israel-Hamas war thread

[statsman 5356]

No CR, but Netanyahu’s government sells itself as being best on security. I imagine he is expected to lead through this, make all the needed (ugly) decisions, and then call for new elections. 

[G650 13401]

27 minutes ago, Viper said:

Not completely the same but Israeli PM Golda Meir was defeated in election after the Yom Kippur War even after winning it because of not being prepared for it beforehand. 

I mean Winston Churchill went down after WWII

[statsman 5356]

Facts and suppositions:

There are no Gaza Kings or Ghandis. Any such would be killed by Hamas. 
 
Hamas has been in charge a long time. All young adults have grown up on an education of anti-semitism. There are no other curriculums. 
 
I have sympathy for the common Gazan; they never had a chance, were never allowed a glimpse of another way. 
 
I still welcome harsh punishment for the terrorist criminals (I’m the kind of guy that cheers when a 95 year old Nazi criminal is discovered and brought to judgment). 
 
Even still- this will be a tough group to reform, to re-educate (I hate that term, because of its authoritarian legacy), to liberalize. 
 
I give credit to Israel for pointedly saying they were at war with Hamas, and not Gaza, even though Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza. 
 
Warring on Hamas will be really ugly. It will have two stages- the first, while everyone determines what to do about the hostages (several are Americans). The second, after. The first part could take a long time, leading to global memory forgetting the massacres and denouncing Israel during the second part. I’m sure Israel understands that. 
 
Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

Edited October 11, 2023 by statsman

[Viper 11958]

12 minutes ago, statsman said:

Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

[SydneyCarton 47673]

21 minutes ago, statsman said:

No CR, but Netanyahu’s government sells itself as being best on security. I imagine he is expected to lead through this, make all the needed (ugly) decisions, and then call for new elections. 

Oh, you expect a guy who was wildly unpopular already, under charges of corruption while previously in office, and who has been reshaping the government along authoritarian lines, who failed at the security his party touts, so suddenly do the moral thing and then step down for new, fair elections, eh?
 

well, I’m jealous of your optimism, I guess.   

[statsman 5356]

8 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Oh, you expect a guy who was wildly unpopular already, under charges of corruption while previously in office, and who has been reshaping the government along authoritarian lines, who failed at the security his party touts, so suddenly do the moral thing and then step down for new, fair elections, eh?
 

well, I’m jealous of your optimism, I guess.   

In a parliamentary system, can’t the parliament force new elections? In times like this, the fringes of the majority coalition can be pressured to vote for a change, bringing a majority to call for a new election. Is that mistaken?

[SydneyCarton 47673]

1 minute ago, statsman said:

In a parliamentary system, can’t the parliament force new elections? In times like this, the fringes of the majority coalition can be pressured to vote for a change, bringing a majority to call for a new election. Is that mistaken?

I don’t think you’re mistaken. In my, admittedly, not robust understanding of where things sit now in Israel, I think it’s unlikely bibi’s majority coalition of his allies, who have been cheering his dismantling of their judicial system’s authority to enforce constitutional rights, is going to call for a new election.Hope I’m wrong, I’m no expert. Guess we’ll see whenever this mess is “done” enough for Israel to focus inward again. 

[Ted Lange 15937]

 

[G650 13401]

Just now, Ted Lange said:

 

Good

[Parliament 14033]

12 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

Ha.  Go fuck yourself. 

[hobbes2702 12541]

16 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

[BlueGreySky 990]

I had never read the Hamas charter statements, but after hearing about that Dukhan's death I looked: 

Goals of the HAMAS:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

On the destruction of Israel:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

The call to jihad:

"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)

Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:

"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic incitement:

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

[NoName 16243]

 

[BlueGreySky 990]

Siege continues as IDF prepares for a ground invasion (presumably) 

 

[Viper 11958]

 

 

[52-80 19010]

54 minutes ago, statsman said:

Facts and suppositions:

There are no Gaza Kings or Ghandis. Any such would be killed by Hamas. 
 
Hamas has been in charge a long time. All young adults have grown up on an education of anti-semitism. There are no other curriculums. 
 
I have sympathy for the common Gazan; they never had a chance, were never allowed a glimpse of another way. 
 
I still welcome harsh punishment for the terrorist criminals (I’m the kind of guy that cheers when a 95 year old Nazi criminal is discovered and brought to judgment). 
 
Even still- this will be a tough group to reform, to re-educate (I hate that term, because of its authoritarian legacy), to liberalize. 
 
I give credit to Israel for pointedly saying they were at war with Hamas, and not Gaza, even though Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza. 
 
Warring on Hamas will be really ugly. It will have two stages- the first, while everyone determines what to do about the hostages (several are Americans). The second, after. The first part could take a long time, leading to global memory forgetting the massacres and denouncing Israel during the second part. I’m sure Israel understands that. 
 
Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

Gazas parliament is nominally 1/3rd Fatah, which is supposed to be tame and have been de-sanctioned by the west.  If (a gigantic big if) that represents the will of the people, then 1/3rd of the people are ethically innocent.  Of course, the big if is that the last election was almost 2 decades ago, and the last one they were supposed to have was cancelled. 

[Deej 76241]

8 minutes ago, BlueGreySky said:

Siege continues as IDF prepares for a ground invasion (presumably) 

 

Only takes snow to do that in Austin. 

[statsman 5356]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Gazas parliament is nominally 1/3rd Fatah, which is supposed to be tame and have been de-sanctioned by the west.  If (a gigantic big if) that represents the will of the people, then 1/3rd of the people are ethically innocent.  Of course, the big if is that the last election was almost 2 decades ago, and the last one they were supposed to have was cancelled. 

Fair, but I’m sticking with “Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza”

[NoName 16243]

 

[Bolero88 249]

21 minutes ago, Viper said:

 

 

The fuck does "the Greeks aren't here. The Romans aren't here," mean?

[52-80 19010]

6 minutes ago, statsman said:

Fair, but I’m sticking with “Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza”

i think hamas having de facto complete control is a safe assumption.  i was just pointing out the apparent party representation.  no idea of the real internal dynamics

[NoName 16243]

that's a hell of a back to back tweet combo

[locodos 5296]

4 minutes ago, Bolero88 said:

The fuck does "the Greeks aren't here. The Romans aren't here," mean?

The food sucks?  idk

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

12 minutes ago, NoName said:

 

Unless the goal is to publish videos of a bunch of protesters getting mowed down.

[Ollie Slatt 289]

14 minutes ago, Bolero88 said:

The fuck does "the Greeks aren't here. The Romans aren't here," mean?

That the Jewish people outlasted multiple other powers that have conquered/attacked Israel in the past . . . and maybe Greeks and Romans fit the meter better than Ottomans and Babylonians.  

Edited October 11, 2023 by Ollie Slatt

[BabaYaga 15188]

15 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Probably a Brad Thor novel.  I've never read any of his stuff, but have seen it in airports, and every cover I've seen resembles the plot you just outlined.

 

Maybe.  For travel/vacation, those are my jam.  Mind candy

[atomheartbevo 89163]

11 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

 

11 hours ago, Not a cat said:

Let's hope that Egypt is actually one of those other countries that is on board. 

Why do you think we are sending a carrier battle group?

 

[JesusSweatDuck 17780]

Coworker's brother was called up by the IDF a couple days ago. He's petitioning for LOA to go back and volunteer. 

[MissingInAction 24469]

11 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

The book Rise and Shoot First addressed this. There is talk that Israel went our way for intelligence gathering. Instead of having a contact in the room the relied on tech. Sometimes the best sources are those no one anticipates. The dude with the food stand next door to HQ. 

Which makes me think this is a clear case of counter intelligence.  Hamas has/had people on the inside of Israel's intelligence structure.

[atomheartbevo 89163]

29 minutes ago, Bolero88 said:

The fuck does "the Greeks aren't here. The Romans aren't here," mean?

16 minutes ago, Ollie Slatt said:

That the Jewish people outlasted multiple other powers that have conquered/attacked Israel in the past . . . and maybe Greeks and Romans fit the meter better than Ottomans and Babylonians.  

The rest of the tweet:  "The Greeks aren’t here. The Romans aren’t here. The Nazis aren’t here. We are here and Hamas will soon be no more!"

Basically, the Jewish people will outlast anybody who wants to destroy them.

 

[Bevo 13442]

1 hour ago, BlueGreySky said:

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

 

That's funny in a morbid kind of way. They say they want to kill all Jews and then they call Jews "warmongering".

[babysdaddy 2710]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

Facts and suppositions:

There are no Gaza Kings or Ghandis. Any such would be killed by Hamas. 
 
Hamas has been in charge a long time. All young adults have grown up on an education of anti-semitism. There are no other curriculums. 
 
I have sympathy for the common Gazan; they never had a chance, were never allowed a glimpse of another way. 
 
I still welcome harsh punishment for the terrorist criminals (I’m the kind of guy that cheers when a 95 year old Nazi criminal is discovered and brought to judgment). 
 
Even still- this will be a tough group to reform, to re-educate (I hate that term, because of its authoritarian legacy), to liberalize. 
 
I give credit to Israel for pointedly saying they were at war with Hamas, and not Gaza, even though Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza. 
 
Warring on Hamas will be really ugly. It will have two stages- the first, while everyone determines what to do about the hostages (several are Americans). The second, after. The first part could take a long time, leading to global memory forgetting the massacres and denouncing Israel during the second part. I’m sure Israel understands that. 
 
Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

This is exactly what will happen and we have some pedantic Hamas simps on this board with raging antisemitism that will make sure they are here to post all relevant information.

[Aqua Buddha 14356]

40 minutes ago, NoName said:

 

And if they arm themselves (and they will), then they're not civilians anymore.

[Woodrow Call 493]

11 hours ago, Not a cat said:

Here's a balanced view of the situation and Israel's options. It's not particularly hopeful, but Lawrence Freedman is well respected professor with in-depth knowledge of the conflict. It's short podcast interview. 

 

That's right. 

[ztejas 42832]

31 minutes ago, NoName said:

that's a hell of a back to back tweet combo

I'm not a fan of "innocent" people dying but it's important to remember that the large majority of Palestinians are a-okay with killing Jews and harboring terrorists. 

Like someone said upthread, I think it's unfortunate that children are born into this conflict, and a lot of their attitudes are a product of their upbringing, but there's levels of innocence and I think it's difficult for Israel to tiptoe around it. The line has to be drawn somewhere and civilians right under that line that don't "deserve" to die will be caught in the crossfire. 

[FartingMonk 3604]

Are the Sammies and the Palestinian students fighting yet?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

I think the plan is to raze it and make it completely uninhabitable for Gazans, kick them out and make it part of Israel. Which would align with the stated goal of many of their far right leaders. 

[SurlyGator 839]

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

[Wally Fairway 5495]

1 hour ago, Viper said:

 

 

While that is awesome; I am going to be there in a couple of weeks and certainly hope this display didn't put The Sphere on the list.

{cue Stripes meme - you just made the list gif)

[Wally Fairway 5495]

31 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Maybe.  For travel/vacation, those are my jam.  Mind candy

Scott Horvath would get this shit settled as a matter of course

[wildcat09 28730]

14 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

This is exactly what will happen and we have some pedantic Hamas simps on this board with raging antisemitism that will make sure they are here to post all relevant information.

Name one, you fucking clown.

[ztejas 42832]

2 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

The hospital in the tweet that @NoName posted is in Israel. 

[Aqua Buddha 14356]

3 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

 

[Viper 11958]

4 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I think the plan is to raze it and make it completely uninhabitable for Gazans, kick them out and make it part of Israel. Which would align with the stated goal of many of their far right leaders. 

I think it's way to early to say this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlueGreySky 990]

1 minute ago, SurlyGator said:

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

That documentation is already out there about them doing this.  It is known. Even from neutral sources.  I swear I read something on it in this thread.

Found it - Ah Shifa Hospital on Wikipedia

I know not everyone likes wiki, but look at the references for primary sources.  There are 23 citations just on this short half-page about the hospital.  And surely it's not the only mosque, school, or hospital being used as cover for Hamas.

[NoName 16243]

yeah, it's about to start popping off

Text: The Israeli Ministry of Health has announced that Patients of Hospitals in the North have begun to be Transferred to Medical Facilities in the Center of the Country in order to allow Assessments and Readiness of Hospital along the Northern Front for the Future Security Developments.

edit: globally as well...

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by NoName

[NoName 16243]

im going to spoiler this but include the text

Quote

video from last saturday shows two paraglider riding terrorists of #Hamas hitting a high voltage powerline & dying instantly somewhere in South of #Israel where Nova Music Festival was held

Spoiler

 

the only things i know about paragliding is to avoid power lines and trees

[SurlyGator 839]

6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The hospital in the tweet that @NoName posted is in Israel. 

The tweet says it was an Israeli strike in Gaza that killed paramedics.  Either my reading comprehension skills have declined significantly, or...

[NoName 16243]

1 minute ago, SurlyGator said:

The tweet says it was an Israeli strike in Gaza that killed paramedics.  Either my reading comprehension skills have declined significantly, or...

there were two tweets. the top one is paramedics killed in israeli strike in gaza.

the bottom one is that a hospital in israel suffered a direct hit from a rocket launched from gaze.

2 different events.

Edited October 11, 2023 by NoName

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11665]

17 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

 

 

we are sending military to an anagram of vietnam.  that's probably a good sign.