Israel-Hamas war thread

[VABuckeye 2481]

43 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

We have refueling capability in UAE and in Qatar.

Qatar probaly isn't a good idea.  They put out a statement condemning Israel after the attacks.

[alincoln 2390]

The next phase is relocating the population of Gaza to Sinai and letting the Arabs deal with it.

[InkaUtexas 26854]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

Qatar probaly isn't a good idea.  They put out a statement condemning Israel after the attacks.

They are not going to stop our aircraft from taking off if we decided to help refuel in air.

I did not say land the Israeli's there. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Also have a hard time thinking that if I was in their shoes, that I'd give a fuck either.

Same statement could be said about the Palestinians. The situation is so completely and utterly broken/untenable that neither side sees any hope in the future. Which makes decision-making a fraught exercise.

[GabrielsHorn 2242]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

"Hamas are assholes so we can starve 2 million people" is not a compelling moral argument.

It all depends on whether Israel opens up humanitarian corridors or if they are truly going medieval with the siege. 

That being said, it’s unbelievably complex as Hamas is using civilian locales as places to store arms - the secondary explosions at a mosque and at an university prove that. Hamas is essentially trying to use the population as a shield or suicide bomb, which only moreso emphasizes the need to completely remove them from Gaza and the world. Getting there is going to be extremely tricky and we can only hope that Israel isn’t going with the “destroy everything and everyone.”

[VABuckeye 2481]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

They are not going to stop our aircraft from taking off if we decided to help refuel in air.

I did not say land the Israeli's there. 

I understand.  It's just another political mess to deal with.

[GabrielsHorn 2242]

1 minute ago, alincoln said:

The next phase is relocating the population of Gaza to Sinai and letting the Arabs deal with it.

Highly doubt that as Egypt won’t allow it - the Palestinians in other countries have done incredible damage (eg Lebanon and Jordan’s civil wars, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt) which makes it extremely difficult for other Arabian countries to take them in. 
 

if there is a country that should take them it, it should be Qatar as they love to fund the violence. 

[wildcat09 29577]

Just now, GabrielsHorn said:

It all depends on whether Israel opens up humanitarian corridors or if they are truly going medieval with the siege. 

That being said, it’s unbelievably complex as Hamas is using civilian locales as places to store arms - the secondary explosions at a mosque and at an university prove that. Hamas is essentially trying to use the population as a shield or suicide bomb, which only moreso emphasizes the need to completely remove them from Gaza and the world. Getting there is going to be extremely tricky and we can only hope that Israel isn’t going with the “destroy everything and everyone.”

Humanitarian corridors to where? Gaza has been an open air prison for years. Israel isn't going to suddenly let most of its population leave.  

I don't know enough about the current state of Israeli domestic politics to have a good sense if they've got the internal support to do it, but it sure seems that Netanyahu and most if not all of Likud and the IDF are about ready to carry out a horrific genocide. 

[VABuckeye 2481]

Yep.  Off topic but I love Formula 1 and it's really starting to grind my gears that the FIA is having races in countries with missile attacks (last year) and that fund terrorists.

Edited October 9, 2023 by VABuckeye

[InkaUtexas 26854]

2 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I understand.  It's just another political mess to deal with.

Fuck Qatar. Leader of Hamas lives there, just like the leadership of the Taliban did. 

[Surly Bevo 25704]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

Fuck Qatar. Leader of Hamas lives there, just like the leadership of the Taliban did. 

And aggy

[Macklemore 2941]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Fuck Qatar. Leader of Hamas lives there, just like the leadership of the Taliban did. 

and yet FIFA chose them to host the World Cup last year to be followed up by Saudi in 2034. Disgusting.

[InkaUtexas 26854]

3 minutes ago, GabrielsHorn said:

Highly doubt that as Egypt won’t allow it - the Palestinians in other countries have done incredible damage (eg Lebanon and Jordan’s civil wars, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt) which makes it extremely difficult for other Arabian countries to take them in. 
 

if there is a country that should take them it, it should be Qatar as they love to fund the violence. 

This, it is just exporting the Hamas problem. Something we commented on is the Ukrainian kids growing up during the war are going to be hard pressed to ever forgive Russia. Same for Palestinian kids. And the Arab states have not been that great when it comes to refugee resettlement. My interpreter in Dubai was Palestinian. Smart kid, spoke 4 languages. Father was a UK trained Doctor but in Dubai treated as a second class citizen. 

[BabaYaga 15552]

1 minute ago, Macklemore said:

and yet FIFA chose them to host the World Cup last year to be followed up by Saudi in 2034. Disgusting.

A world cup built on the backs of thousands of dead migrant workers who constructed the facilities.  

[alincoln 2390]

No one wants them but that is the way the hose will be pointing when Israel turns on the spigot.

[Wally Fairway 5673]

Y'all keep talking about genecide in Gaza, the Israli hope is not for genecide but for hostages to be returned ALIVE. The sooner the better, they can't bomb them back, I don't think they can find them, so they do what they can. These are hardened tough fuckers and they are not really looking to negotiate for a few of them. 
I am not saying I support the starvation of children, but there have been children killed in this war already so if Hamas wants those children to eat they know what they have to do; and I'm not sure that Hamas cares who dies. 
There has been war in the middle east for centuries (maybe millenia) and we (the West) are crazy to think we can get to a solution. Iran may have bitten off more than they expected, if the Saudi's (who were negotiating economic relations with Israel) who also hate the Iranian regime were align with Israel and destroy the Iranian oil infrastructure.
This war seems to be a very large version of fuck around and find out.

[InkaUtexas 26854]

US Navy has a major base in Bahrain. 

 

Saraya Wa’ad Allah, an Iranian-backed militia in the island Kingdom of Bahrain, has announced its support for Hamas’ slaughter of Israelis and called for similar mobilization inside Bahrain. Despite the threat of violence, however, similar calls to action by the militia, or other Iranian-backed groups on the island over the last few years, have failed to materialize. 

According to Saraya Wa’ad Allah, the Hamas-led assault on Israel “revealed the internal defeat of the house of spiders, as God has fulfilled his promise.” Moreover, the militia states that “what the Israeli occupation is experiencing is the inevitable divine promise that this great act of resistance will overshadow this bastard entity and God will decree their evacuation sooner than later.” 

The militia goes on to congratulate Hamas and other groups within the so-called “Islamic Resistance,” or other militant groups within Iran’s orbit, and calls on them to continue until the “adhan [call to prayer] and calls of takbeer” can be heard from within. 

Turning more locally, Saraya Wa’ad Allah also states that this is evidence that the current ruling Al-Khalifa family of Bahrain should turn against Israel and not pursue normalization. Calls against normalization with Israel have been a common refrain for Bahraini militias for several years. 

The Shia militant group then states that the Hamas-led assault should be the call for Bahrain’s own mobilization against “Zionists” on the island and calls for a popular resistance uprising against the Bahraini state and Israelis. 

https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2023/10/bahraini-militia-celebrates-hamas-led-invasion-of-israel-calls-for-mobilization-against-israelis.php

[GabrielsHorn 2242]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Humanitarian corridors to where? Gaza has been an open air prison for years. Israel isn't going to suddenly let most of its population leave.  

I don't know enough about the current state of Israeli domestic politics to have a good sense if they've got the internal support to do it, but it sure seems that Netanyahu and most if not all of Likud and the IDF are about ready to carry out a horrific genocide. 

Doesn’t have to be out of Gaza - earlier, Israel was redirecting people out of Gaza City to other portions of the strip. 

[956 Worldwide 35586]

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account

 

Quote

The attack on the festival outside of Re’im began around 7 a.m. The party was at its peak by then—which meant that by then most people were inebriated. At first, partygoers heard a loud explosion, which they took to be another sporadic rocket attack on southern Israel. But then the explosions grew louder and constant, and kept going for about five minutes. The music stopped, and the police protecting the 4,000 or 5,000 ravers began pushing everyone to leave.

By then, the terrorists were approaching in pickup trucks bearing Hamas military markings.

Shooting began. Many were executed on the spot. 260 bodies have been found, so far, on the site of the rave.

Many of the young men and women started running in the flat expanse of the western Negev desert. Faced with the spectacle of kids fleeing for their lives on a largely flat surface, the terrorists began rounding up the rest of their victims.

Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies.”

Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza. In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.

This is Bronze Age warfare. Racing to surprise the other tribe, killing as many as you can, raping, and stealing women and children as hostages. Then running back and celebrating the great victory. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[InkaUtexas 26854]

1 minute ago, GabrielsHorn said:

Doesn’t have to be out of Gaza - earlier, Israel was redirecting people out of Gaza City to other portions of the strip. 

See that does not solve anything. The Hamas fighters and their equipment moves with them. Hamas can then move into Egypt via their tunnels and go elsewhere. 

And then Israel and Egypt have a massive refugee camp along the border they have to take care of. Israel did this in Lebanon and it did not go well. 

[956 Worldwide 35586]

13 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

This, it is just exporting the Hamas problem. Something we commented on is the Ukrainian kids growing up during the war are going to be hard pressed to ever forgive Russia. Same for Palestinian kids. And the Arab states have not been that great when it comes to refugee resettlement. My interpreter in Dubai was Palestinian. Smart kid, spoke 4 languages. Father was a UK trained Doctor but in Dubai treated as a second class citizen. 

Arab states don’t want to resettle and integrate mostly because that would be a major step to resolving the whole issue.  And to be fair, there is a  of point that Israel and its creation made the problem and it’s not their job to fix it. 

[Ghost of LL 15681]

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You're not wrong.

I just come back to this: a movement that has as its unambiguous goal the extermination of all Jews wherever they may be found, a movement that is supported by the people of Gaza, has committed an act of genocide (yes, that's what a massive campaign to slaughter Israeli civilians is), and promises to commit more.

How do you respond to that?  Not "we did this because you aren't allowing our infrastructure to develop."  No.  "We did this because we will not rest until every Jew is dead."  Is there any other sane or rational response OTHER than rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands very, very dirty?

I think that's a pretty ridiculous take.

Hamas doesn't have the wherewithal to exterminate Jews.  It has the ability to kill a pretty decent number of Jews who live in Israel.  But it has no ability to commit a genocide.

Perhaps committing a genocide of the Jews may be an aspiration of Hamas.  But Hamas isn't alone in that aspiration.  It's an aspiration shared by a huge number of people worldwide, including a fair number in the United States.  But those aspirations are not a license for Israel to kill people who hold it.

Hamas has the ability to kill people inside Israel, and Israel has the right to eliminate that ability.  And Israel should and will avail itself of that ability.  

But answering Hamas's aspiration to commit a genocide with an actual genocide is an unacceptable outcome.

18 minutes ago, alincoln said:

The next phase is relocating the population of Gaza to Sinai and letting the Arabs deal with it.

That's a fantastically bad idea.  It would destabilize Egypt and do nothing to improve Israel's security.

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

A world cup built on the backs of thousands of dead migrant workers who constructed the facilities.  

If we're now objecting to facilities built with slave labor, well we're going to have to abandon quite a lot of American infrastructure (starting with our Capitol).

[InkaUtexas 26854]

And the pyramids, and most of Rome, and the autobahn, the list goes on. 

But this is an age where we are not supposed to sanction the use of slave labor. And it really is. Dubai's wealth is built by people who live in squalor for horrible wages (a lot of time being deported without being paid) that only enriches the Emirati's and the Labor Brokers in the originating nations. 

[BabaYaga 15552]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

If we're now objecting to facilities built with slave labor, well we're going to have to abandon quite a lot of American infrastructure (starting with our Capitol).

You really think there is an equivalence here?

[Brisketexan 106851]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Hamas has the ability to kill people inside Israel, and Israel has the right to eliminate that ability.  And Israel should and will avail itself of that ability.  

Few more effective ways than a full blockade of Gaza.  Nothing in.  Nothing out.

Which is also genocidal.

Fuck around and find out has been the way of the world since we figured out how to sharpen sticks.  If you think that's not going to be Israel's play, you aren't paying attention. 

Hamas has chosen total war, with as much genocide as it can muster, with the support of the people in Gaza.  Hamas chose total war, Israel will give it to them.  You know that to be true.

[ztejas 44137]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

If we're now objecting to facilities built with slave labor, well we're going to have to abandon quite a lot of American infrastructure (starting with our Capitol).

I think we're objecting to facilities built with slave labor like, you know, within the last year. 

[BabaYaga 15552]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Hamas has chosen total war, with as much genocide as it can muster, with the support of the people in Gaza.  Hamas chose total war, Israel will give it to them.  You know that to be true.

With an ally with billions in funds with a designation for humanitarian aid sitting on the sidelines

[GopherRock 1773]

This is the only thing I thought of this morning.

[bolverk 30305]

15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account

 

This is Bronze Age warfare. Racing to surprise the other tribe, killing as many as you can, raping, and stealing women and children as hostages. Then running back and celebrating the great victory. 

Safe to watch. No gore.

Second tweet was previously posted on the other thread, but it got tagged along with the first one below and I can't do anything about that.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by bolverk

[Aqua Buddha 14802]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Can they really do that? That's genocide.

Yes and yes.

Hamas could also unconditionally surrender and end it.

 

[wildcat09 29577]

14 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Arab states don’t want to resettle and integrate mostly because that would be a major step to resolving the whole issue.  And to be fair, there is a  of point that Israel and its creation made the problem and it’s not their job to fix it. 

I don't have anything particularly insightful to contribute so I'm just going to stick with dark humor. Can you imagine if we actually did get some Arab countries to agree to resettle the Palestinians? The Sauds would probably dump them in the Rub' al Khali and tell them good luck. 

[Aqua Buddha 14802]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Few more effective ways than a full blockade of Gaza.  Nothing in.  Nothing out.

Which is also genocidal.

Fuck around and find out has been the way of the world since we figured out how to sharpen sticks.  If you think that's not going to be Israel's play, you aren't paying attention. 

Hamas has chosen total war, with as much genocide as it can muster, with the support of the people in Gaza.  Hamas chose total war, Israel will give it to them.  You know that to be true.

Hamas & Co have been allowed to play on the margins for decades with no real consequence for the actual people they "lead."  That will change now, as it should.  When these jihadists mothers, wives, and daughters start dying, maybe they'll come around from internal pressure if nothing else.

[Ghost of LL 15681]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You really think there is an equivalence here?

Well, there is an equivalence.  But it doesn't really matter.  Because the slave labor that was used to build the Capitol is as irrelevant to the World Cup as the World Cup is to the current war.

My point is simply that you cannot dismiss Qatar as a player based on its use of slave labor to build the World Cup venues.  If you do that, then you need to appreciate that the same argument is going to be thrown back at us, no matter how unrelated the issues may be.

If we want to talk about Qatar in this discussion, then let's focus on its role in supporting Hamas and whether it has played a constructive or destructive role over the years.

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Few more effective ways than a full blockade of Gaza.  Nothing in.  Nothing out.

Which is also genocidal.

Fuck around and find out has been the way of the world since we figured out how to sharpen sticks.  If you think that's not going to be Israel's play, you aren't paying attention. 

Hamas has chosen total war, with as much genocide as it can muster, with the support of the people in Gaza.  Hamas chose total war, Israel will give it to them.  You know that to be true.

Hamas hasn't chosen "total war," because Hamas can't carry out "total war."

Israel is the only participant in this war that can carry out a genocide.  Were Israel to do that, then I have no trouble saying that Israel would be wrong.

Israel needs to defend itself.  And it's going to take rough measures to do so.  

But Israel also needs to exist in the world after this war.  And being a genocidal ethno-state is going to make that pretty damned difficult.  As someone who supports Israel, I really hope it doesn't choose that path.

[InkaUtexas 26854]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Hamas & Co have been allowed to play on the margins for decades with no real consequence for the actual people they "lead."  That will change now, as it should.  When these jihadists mothers, wives, and daughters start dying, maybe they'll come around from internal pressure if nothing else.

That is western thinking. They all become martyrs, and the witnesses the next generation of Hamas members. 

[wildcat09 29577]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Hamas & Co have been allowed to play on the margins for decades with no real consequence for the actual people they "lead."  That will change now, as it should.  When these jihadists mothers, wives, and daughters start dying, maybe they'll come around from internal pressure if nothing else.

Are you fuckin serious?

[Foosters 18267]

5 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Yes and yes.

Hamas could also unconditionally surrender and end it.

 

People here are defending Hamas as "hapless victims?"

what's your deal?

[Aqua Buddha 14802]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Are you fuckin serious?

Not like this they haven't.  

Just now, Foosters said:

People here are defending Hamas as "hapless victims?"

what's your deal?

Not people here, in particular, but people nation and worldwide, yes.

[hobbes2702 13393]

5 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Hamas & Co have been allowed to play on the margins for decades with no real consequence for the actual people they "lead."  That will change now, as it should.  When these jihadists mothers, wives, and daughters start dying, maybe they'll come around from internal pressure if nothing else.

You should maybe sit this one out

[Brisketexan 106851]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Hamas hasn't chosen "total war," because Hamas can't carry out "total war."

Israel is the only participant in this war that can carry out a genocide.  Were Israel to do that, then I have no trouble saying that Israel would be wrong.

Israel needs to defend itself.  And it's going to take rough measures to do so.  

But Israel also needs to exist in the world after this war.  And being a genocidal ethno-state is going to make that pretty damned difficult.  As someone who supports Israel, I really hope it doesn't choose that path.

You are operating under the mistaken belief that ability limits aspiration.  Hamas will carry out as much "total war" as it can.  It is an unambiguous enemy.  There is no longer any room for negotiation, compromise, or rapprochement.  Hamas must be exterminated.  Not weakened, not neutered.  Completely eliminated.  It's the only sane and rational response/approach for Israel.

The "rough measures" to which you refer are going to look pretty fucking genocidal for a good while.  But not forever.  There will still be living breathing Palestinians in Gaza when this is done.  It may well be that very few of them are males over the age of 14. 

You know that's true. And you know that it can't be any other way.  Not anymore.

EDIT: and YES, Israel's one-two punch of poor leadership, at once being all talk and mild action on "look how tough we are and how shitty we can be" as it is also more occupied with grandstanding than actually governing has bitten Israel in the ass.  They'll have to deal with that as well.  But that doesn't change how they have to deal with Hamas now.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Aqua Buddha 14802]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

You should maybe sit this one out

Lay siege to them.  Cut off everything.  A month from now when their hungry, cold, and sick kids are crying in the middle of the night, they'll come out.

Just demand the unconditional surrender of anything in Hamas leadership.

[hobbes2702 13393]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

Lay siege to them.  Cut off everything.  A month from now when their hungry, cold, and sick kids are crying in the middle of the night, they'll come out.

Just demand the unconditional surrender of anything in Hamas leadership.

Like I said, maybe just sit this out. 
Seeing posters on this site support and advocate for genocide is fucking gross. 

[BabaYaga 15552]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Lay siege to them.  Cut off everything.  A month from now when their hungry, cold, and sick kids are crying in the middle of the night, they'll come out.

Just demand the unconditional surrender of anything in Hamas leadership.

They'll start executing prisoners long before this happens

[hobbes2702 13393]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

They'll start executing prisoners long before this happens

And this.

Hamas fucking sucks, but genocide is still genocide.

[InkaUtexas 26854]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Lay siege to them.  Cut off everything.  A month from now when their hungry, cold, and sick kids are crying in the middle of the night, they'll come out.

Just demand the unconditional surrender of anything in Hamas leadership.

Again, they won't give zeros fucks. They will broadcast the suffering across the Arab world and it will continue to spread. 

And the true Hamas leadership is either in Qatar, Tehran or Beruit. 

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

They'll start executing prisoners long before this happens

According to CNN they just said they will do just this if the IDF attacks continue. 

[Brisketexan 106851]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Like I said, maybe just sit this out. 
Seeing posters on this site support and advocate for genocide is fucking gross. 

It's also gross to see posters on this site sympathize with Hamas.  When you look at an attack with genocidal intent AND effect, and say "well, this is the victim's fault," that's fucking bullshit.

I say this as someone who has been plenty critical of Israel for a long-ass time.  It's exactly how I would react if someone had an ultra shitty neighbor, who was widely criticized for years -- and I join in that criticism.  Then the aggrieved party walks over there, shoots the neighbor in the head, rapes his wife, and kidnaps his kid.  Nope.  Not gonna respond with "well...he WAS a shitty neighbor."  Not gonna do it.  Line has been crossed.  It cannot be uncrossed.

Hamas has chosen the path.  Now, the belligerents will follow that path.  That's the way it goes.

[Brisketexan 106851]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And the true Hamas leadership is either in Qatar, Tehran or Beruit. 

Which is where Israel needs to hit them.  It needs to run Operation Wrath of God II, following the post-Munich playbook.

[hobbes2702 13393]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

It's also gross to see posters on this site sympathize with Hamas.  When you look at an attack with genocidal intent AND effect, and say "well, this is the victim's fault," that's fucking bullshit.

I say this as someone who has been plenty critical of Israel for a long-ass time.  It's exactly how I would react if someone had an ultra shitty neighbor, who was widely criticized for years -- and I join in that criticism.  Then the aggrieved party walks over there, shoots the neighbor in the head, rapes his wife, and kidnaps his kid.  Nope.  Not gonna respond with "well...he WAS a shitty neighbor."  Not gonna do it.  Line has been crossed.  It cannot be uncrossed.

Hamas has chosen the path.  Now, the belligerents will follow that path.  That's the way it goes.

No one is sympathizing with Hamas. That’s ridiculous and you know it. 
 

Saying Hamas is bad so genocide is ok is literally happening on this website. 

[G650 14432]

I see the takes in here are just as hot as the ones in the CR.

[Brisketexan 106851]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

No one is sympathizing with Hamas. That’s ridiculous and you know it. 

False.  Go back and read some early posts in the Global Spring thread and the Israel thread.  There's a SHITLOAD of "blame the victim first" responses. 

[Eastwood 4394]

This concept that Hamas cannot conduct “total war” is a flawed one. I’m not a trained fighter, but if I take a swing at Tyson Fury on the street and get two cheap shots in, I’m in a “fight” with Tyson Fury. The skill level between the two parties is irrelevant. It’s the intent of the initiator that matters, in my opinion. I hypothetically intended on knocking out Tyson Fury with a cheap shot and my life would probably meet a swift end after I failed.