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Israel-Hamas war thread

Brisketexan

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13418

Posted
Posted
Just now, Brisketexan said:

False.  Go back and read some early posts in the Global Spring thread and the Israel thread.  There's a SHITLOAD of "blame the victim first" responses. 
 

I didn’t see those posts so I will take your word for it. Anyone who blames the victims here is also equally gross. There’s obviously some nuance needed for this discussion which isn’t going to happen here. But again, I don’t need to both sides about genocide. 
 

Don’t support genocide regardless of who is committing it and their reasons. That’s it. Pretty simple

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BlueGreySky
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My friend from Nazareth (works as a tour guide and I hang out with her and her family every time I'm there)... digital silence.  Can't get her by phone.  Hasn't posted anything on FB or Insta since Th

TexArcher
TexArcher

I'm continually amazed at the ability of Americans to pick a side in this ongoing fiasco. I know people who are very pro-Israel and others who are very pro-Palestine. All I see is two bad gu

alincoln
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You must not read your own posts 

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Ghost of LL

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You are operating under the mistaken belief that ability limits aspiration.  Hamas will carry out as much "total war" as it can.  It is an unambiguous enemy.  There is no longer any room for negotiation, compromise, or rapprochement.  Hamas must be exterminated.  Not weakened, not neutered.  Completely eliminated.  It's the only sane and rational response/approach for Israel.

Yeah, ability does limit aspiration . . . as evidenced by the fact that you didn't have a threesome with Sela Ward and Suzanna Hoffs last night.

And by the way, if you think merely aspiring to commit genocide merits the intended victim wiping you out, then you ought to be real careful.  By that formulation, Russia ought to have an FSB hit squad tracking you down.  And by your formulation, they'd be justified in doing so.

But even if they were justified in killing you--a point I do not for a minute concede--it would have very negative consequences for Russia.  And so even aside from the moral and legal point, there is a practical point.

And so from every standpoint--moral, legal, ethical, and practical--Israel needs to show a little restraint here and not follow the Brisketexan Guide to Justifying Genocide.

4 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Lay siege to them.  Cut off everything.  A month from now when their hungry, cold, and sick kids are crying in the middle of the night, they'll come out.

Just demand the unconditional surrender of anything in Hamas leadership.

Yeah--that's a war crime.  And it's fucking gross.  

But beyond that, Israel's supporters in America don't do Israel any favors by loudly encouraging it to commit war crimes.  

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babysdaddy

babysdaddy 2731

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8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

False.  Go back and read some early posts in the Global Spring thread and the Israel thread.  There's a SHITLOAD of "blame the victim first" responses. 

which posters?  Israel was invaded by Hamas, women raped and murdered, kidnapped, murdered children in front of their parents and we have posters on this site blaming those very victims for it?  AYFKM.  Goddamn that is gross.

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Aqua Buddha

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9 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Yeah, ability does limit aspiration . . . as evidenced by the fact that you didn't have a threesome with Sela Ward and Suzanna Hoffs last night.

And by the way, if you think merely aspiring to commit genocide merits the intended victim wiping you out, then you ought to be real careful.  By that formulation, Russia ought to have an FSB hit squad tracking you down.  And by your formulation, they'd be justified in doing so.

But even if they were justified in killing you--a point I do not for a minute concede--it would have very negative consequences for Russia.  And so even aside from the moral and legal point, there is a practical point.

And so from every standpoint--moral, legal, ethical, and practical--Israel needs to show a little restraint here and not follow the Brisketexan Guide to Justifying Genocide.

Yeah--that's a war crime.  And it's fucking gross.  

But beyond that, Israel's supporters in America don't do Israel any favors by loudly encouraging it to commit war crimes.  

How else do you win a war?

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 35586

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The good news is that Israel isn’t going to commit a genocide. There is going to be a lot of destruction and many deaths, and thanks to Israel’s overwhelming firepower advantage, Palestinians will suffer more. But they are not going to commit a genocide and they aren’t even going to do something as clearly war-crimey as what happened on Saturday. 
 

They are absolutely justified in killing or imprisoning everyone formally affiliated with Hamas, and they may try to do that, and they will certainly lose far more soldiers than they would if they just decided to do a genocide. 

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GabrielsHorn

GabrielsHorn 2244

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52 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

See that does not solve anything. The Hamas fighters and their equipment moves with them. Hamas can then move into Egypt via their tunnels and go elsewhere. 

And then Israel and Egypt have a massive refugee camp along the border they have to take care of. Israel did this in Lebanon and it did not go well. 

Well, it is the recommendation for now from the IDF. 

 

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MirrOlure

MirrOlure 15250

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Maybe I'm too old-school-educated for the modern world...but I'm having a hard time grasping that fighting back then going on offense against an attacking enemy constitutes "genocide."  Of course every conflict in that region (and most other regions) involves one or more race/religion against another, and to win you have to severely damage the enemy.  

To me "genocide" is the unprovoked killing of masses of people for the sole reason that they belong to a particular race or ethnic group.  

I guess arguably if the retaliation is devoid of any military or anti-terrorist purpose, and is just blowing up buildings because Palestinians live there....then that's where we get the genocide label?

 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13418

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3 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

Maybe I'm too old-school-educated for the modern world...but I'm having a hard time grasping that fighting back then going on offense against an attacking enemy constitutes "genocide."  Of course every conflict in that region (and most other regions) involves one or more race/religion against another, and to win you have to severely damage the enemy.  

To me "genocide" is the unprovoked killing of masses of people for the sole reason that they belong to a particular race or ethnic group.  

I guess arguably if the retaliation is devoid of any military or anti-terrorist purpose, and is just blowing up buildings because Palestinians live there....then that's where we get the genocide label?

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide#:~:text=Medical Definition-,genocide,genocidal

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29577

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41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You are operating under the mistaken belief that ability limits aspiration.  Hamas will carry out as much "total war" as it can.  It is an unambiguous enemy.  There is no longer any room for negotiation, compromise, or rapprochement.  Hamas must be exterminated.  Not weakened, not neutered.  Completely eliminated.  It's the only sane and rational response/approach for Israel.

The "rough measures" to which you refer are going to look pretty fucking genocidal for a good while.  But not forever.  There will still be living breathing Palestinians in Gaza when this is done.  It may well be that very few of them are males over the age of 14. 

You know that's true. And you know that it can't be any other way.  Not anymore.

EDIT: and YES, Israel's one-two punch of poor leadership, at once being all talk and mild action on "look how tough we are and how shitty we can be" as it is also more occupied with grandstanding than actually governing has bitten Israel in the ass.  They'll have to deal with that as well.  But that doesn't change how they have to deal with Hamas now.

That basically describes what Gaza's already like.  The median male age there is 17.

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ztejas

ztejas 44217

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Posted (edited)

I think "genocide" is being thrown around too loosely in here. From Israel's perspective it will likely be an attempt at eradicating Hamas - not killing Palestinians for the sake of being Palestinian. Calling it genocide is conflating their religion/ethnicity with the belligerent party that they are fighting for or supporting. For it to be genocide there needs to be widespread killing of Palestinian women and children outside of typical collateral-damage civilian casualties. 

Are the waters going to get muddied? Sure - I just think actual genocide is extremely deliberate and not the same thing as going to war against a militant organization that happens to mostly be Palestinian. To @Brisketexan's point - would some Israelis like to see all of them dead, including the women and children? Probably, but that doesn't mean it's going to be carried out.

@MirrOlure download(15).jpeg.073c17cfe686a2cfc025578075d44beb.jpeg

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locodos

locodos 5590

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20 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Do we have confirmation that Americans were dragged into Gaza as hostages? Because that changes the equation and isn't going to end well for anyone.

Why?  are the Uvalde police finally saddled up and set to go in?

Americans or not, I'm not sure anything would change as it relates to US / Hamas "relations" and it's not like the US can be anymore in the bag for Israel than we already are. So what changes?  Hell we get kids slaughtered here on the regular and nothing changes.

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wildcat09

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21 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The good news is that Israel isn’t going to commit a genocide. There is going to be a lot of destruction and many deaths, and thanks to Israel’s overwhelming firepower advantage, Palestinians will suffer more. But they are not going to commit a genocide and they aren’t even going to do something as clearly war-crimey as what happened on Saturday. 
 

They are absolutely justified in killing or imprisoning everyone formally affiliated with Hamas, and they may try to do that, and they will certainly lose far more soldiers than they would if they just decided to do a genocide. 

I don't see any good reason to think this is correct.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13418

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1 minute ago, ztejas said:

I think "genocide" is being thrown around too loosely in here. From Israel's perspective it will likely be an attempt at eradicating Hamas - not killing Palestinians for the sake of being Palestinian. Calling it genocide is conflating their religion/ethnicity with the belligerent party that they are fighting for or supporting. For it to be genocide there needs to be widespread killing of Palestinian women and children outside of typical collateral-damage civilian casualties. 

Are the waters going to get muddied? Sure - I just think actual genocide is extremely deliberate and not the same thing as going to war against a militant organization that happens to mostly be Palestinian. To @Brisketexan's point - would some Israelis like to see all of them dead, including the women and children? Probably, but that doesn't mean it's going to be carried out.

It sounds like Israel isn’t going to commit genocide. Apologies for a slight derail. My point is only that no one on this site should be advocating for genocide, which several posters have absolutely suggested as the solution to this conflictz

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MirrOlure

MirrOlure 15250

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And killing somebody in justified self defense is a “homicide.” Doesn’t make it wrong.

The casual throwing around of that word in its broadest and most general sense is disingenuous….especially when it is being ascribed to Israel, for obvious reasons.
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hobbes2702

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3 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:


And killing somebody in justified self defense is a “homicide.” Doesn’t make it wrong.

The casual throwing around of that word in its broadest and most general sense is disingenuous….especially when it is being ascribed to Israel, for obvious reasons.

It’s not casually being thrown around. It’s being suggested by people in this thread.

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

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19 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

Maybe I'm too old-school-educated for the modern world...but I'm having a hard time grasping that fighting back then going on offense against an attacking enemy constitutes "genocide."  Of course every conflict in that region (and most other regions) involves one or more race/religion against another, and to win you have to severely damage the enemy.  

To me "genocide" is the unprovoked killing of masses of people for the sole reason that they belong to a particular race or ethnic group.  

I guess arguably if the retaliation is devoid of any military or anti-terrorist purpose, and is just blowing up buildings because Palestinians live there....then that's where we get the genocide label?

 

We're referring to their plan to cut off water, food and electricity and lay siege to Gaza, which was the quoted plan from a high-level IDF leader.

Not a single person here is suggesting that Israel declaring war and going on the offensive to wipe out Hamas is genocide.

That said, given the most recent statements made by the IDF it sounds like their US masters made clear that isn't going to fly.

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956 Worldwide

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13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't see any good reason to think this is correct.

The IDF has already begun broadcasting information to Gaza of where civilians should relocate to avoid air strikes and the coming ground operation. That is pretty much the opposite of what Hamas did on Saturday, which was a massive pogrom. Israel is not going to eliminate 2 million people and it’s not going to starve them all to death either.  

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Woodrow Call

Woodrow Call 494

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Posted
2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

so what's the plan regarding cutting off food, water and electricity to 2 million people?

Minimally, to demoralize and wage of a war of attrition. Or to remove as many Palestinians as possible so they can completely take over the area. They want all of them gone. 

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29577

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The IDF has already begun broadcasting information to Gaza of where civilians should relocate to avoid air strikes and the coming ground operation. That is pretty much the opposite of what Hamas did on Saturday, which was a massive pogrom. Israel is not going to eliminate 2 million people and it’s not going to starve them all to death either.  

I sure hope you're right.

Do you (or does anyone else here) have a good source you trust for the latest breaking news on this? Twitter generally has been pretty useless, but I expect there are some good accounts still worth following. The only ones I know though are the Bellingcat guys.

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Woodrow Call

Woodrow Call 494

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Bullshit propaganda. 

No, it's not. Go back and listen to some of the things Israeli hardliners have said. It's terrifying. I'm all for Israel doing what's necessary to defend itself, but I'm not naive about what this hardliner government wants. I want Hamas gone. Ben-Gvir wants all of them gone and said so. 

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Ted Lange

Ted Lange 16405

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7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I sure hope you're right.

Do you (or does anyone else here) have a good source you trust for the latest breaking news on this? Twitter generally has been pretty useless, but I expect there are some good accounts still worth following. The only ones I know though are the Bellingcat guys.

I have used this list for awhile now.

 

 

 

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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4 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

No, it's not. Go back and listen to some of the things Israeli hardliners have said. It's terrifying. I'm all for Israel doing what's necessary to defend itself, but I'm not naive about what this hardliner government wants. 

Source? Because I've been hearing about the elimination of Israel for my whole life, not just a few Twitter morons.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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Hamas' armed wing issues hostage threat over Israeli air strikes

The armed wing of Hamas, the Al-Qassam brigades, has announced it will "begin executing an Israeli civilian captive in return for any new Israeli bombing of civilian houses without pre-warning".

Al Qassam spokesman Abu Obaida, in a post on Telegram, blamed the move on "Israel's stepped-up bombing and killing of children, women, and the elderly inside their homes".

He added that "the ball is in their [Israel's] court from now on."

The Israeli government believes dozens of Israelis are being held captive in Gaza after Hamas fighters infiltrated the country on Saturday.

Israel sends alerts warning Palestinians if they are in an area due to be targeted in an attack.

Since Israel began striking Gaza in response to the large-scale attacks by Hamas, nearly 600 people have died.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67050350?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=65243795fd63b979e1accdb9%26Hamas' armed wing issues hostage threat over Israeli air strikes%262023-10-09T17%3A55%3A13.508Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:ad359c4b-181c-4f58-9604-60bbc09758b2&pinned_post_asset_id=65243795fd63b979e1accdb9&pinned_post_type=share

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Woodrow Call

Woodrow Call 494

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7 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Source? Because I've been hearing about the elimination of Israel for my whole life, not just a few Twitter morons.

Again, I'm pro-Israel, but this guy isn't helping things. 

“Jerusalem is ours,” he said. “The Palestinians can go to – the Gaza Strip should also be ours – can go to Saudi Arabia or other places, like Iraq or Iran.

“Not here, this is our place. Israel is our country.” He's made numerous comments about creating a law to expel anyone that acts "against the state." It's pretty clear what he wants. 

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Ted Lange

Ted Lange 16405

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Posted
4 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

how fucking stupid do you have to be to say 'it's unjustifiable to kill women, children and the elderly and it must stop' right after you just slaughtered women, children and the elderly? 

They dont care.   They knew doing what they did would lead to this.   They know beheading people on TV will make it worse.   They don't care.

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

Again, I'm pro-Israel, but this guy isn't helping things. 

“Jerusalem is ours,” he said. “The Palestinians can go to – the Gaza Strip should also be ours – can go to Saudi Arabia or other places, like Iraq or Iran.

“Not here, this is our place. Israel is our country.” He's made numerous comments about creating a law to expel anyone that acts "against the state." It's pretty clear what he wants. 

A little more info from wikipedia. Sounds like he's the Jewish version of Hamas. Good thing he was put in a position of power.

Quote

Itamar Ben-Gvir (Hebrew: אִיתָמָר בֶּן גְּבִיר; born 6 May 1976) is an Israeli lawyer and politician, who serves as the Minister of National Security.[1] He is additionally a member of the Knesset and leader of Otzma Yehudit.[2][3] His political position has been described as far-right.[4][5]

Ben-Gvir, a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. He removed the portrait after he entered politics.[3] He was also previously convicted of supporting a terrorist group known as Kach, which espoused Kahanism, an extremist religious Zionist ideology.[6]

Under his leadership, the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), a party which espouses Kahanism and anti-Arabism, won six seats in the 2022 Israeli legislative election, and is represented in what has been called the most right-wing and hardline government in Israel's history.[7][8][9][10] He has called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel.[10] Ben Gvir is "widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities".[11]

Ben Gvir had been long accused of being a provocateur, having previously led several visits to the Temple Mount as activist and member of Knesset, contentious marches through Jerusalem's Old City Muslim Quarter, and set up an office in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood which witnessed several evictions of Palestinians.[12] On 3 January 2023, he visited the Temple Mount where the al-Aqsa Mosque is located, spurring an international wave of criticism that labelled his visit purposely provocative.[12] As a lawyer, he is known for defending Jewish radicals and terrorists on trial in Israel.[13]

 

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Chopper

Chopper 17430

Posted
Posted (edited)

IMO the link we need to be concerned about is

Hamas <----->Iran<--->Russia

I don't know how you "win" a war against an enemy that hides in the same buildings as women, children and other civilians. The same people that elect Hamas to rule their territory.

I also don't know how you negotiate with an enemy that refuses time and again not only to not negotiate but even refuse your very right to exist.

How do you negotiate with an enemy that would slaughter and take hostage 84 year old women and 4 year old children?

In closing I'll leave you with a word from elmo the clown

https://www.wired.com/story/x-israel-hamas-war-disinformation/

edit to add - don't believe shit you read/see on twitter

image.thumb.png.5b428afc9d52cd45832908e7fe93ea0a.png

 

image.thumb.png.bbb016e53e6e10510059e6243db091d8.png

Edited by Chopper
cutting and pasting is hard work
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