Israel-Hamas war thread

[SimonBolivar 10958]

Just now, bolverk said:

What was the name of that show? He was such a hilarious curmudgeon.

An Idiot Abroad. It wasn't as good as the old XFM shows or the podcasts that spawned off of that, but it is really solid especially when he goes to the "alright wall of China".

[troph 24782]

32 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Just give them Oregon. Or New Zealand. 10x the space and far away from the ‘Rabs. 

Everybody wins. 

just because I think there are some holy (shit) sites in Oregon (never been to NZ), doesn't mean the religous in the mid east will agree.

[52-80 19149]

15 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Egypt can't take care of their own people and their infrastructure is shit.  They can't deal with a million refugees.

Besides the fact that most Muslim states are poor, why do some people fall into the identitarian assumption that they all unify simply on the basis of religion. Not all Christian people and states get along. 

Egypt - or whoever else - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary. They are their own entities in the end. 

[NoName 16351]

Just now, bolverk said:

What was the name of that show? He was such a hilarious curmudgeon.

An Idiot Abroad

while not as good there is also The Moaning of Life.

[NoName 16351]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Besides the fact that most Muslim states are poor, why do some people fall into the identitarian assumption that they all unify simply on the basis of religion. Not all Christian people and states get along. 

Egypt - or whoever else - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary. They are their own entities in the end. 

yeah man, we are all aware of the Shia-Sunni divide in the Arab world. this isn't 1994.

let me fix this for you:

Quote

Egypt - and basically everyone else in the Arab world - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary.

re: "poor"

OPEC members earned about $888 billion in net oil export revenue in 2022 alone. they will earn about $2.8 trillion between 21 and 24 based on their projections.

go take a look at the OPEC members in the MENA region alone.

EU and their member states have given them billions.

US has given them billions

Qatar has given them billions.

notice who isn't showing up a ton on this list? or who gave them money specifically during the Second Intifada and have dropped off a ton since?

lol "poor countries"

they could if they wanted to or cared to, but they can't or won't and they haven't.

it is what it is but don't defend them as "poor countries" - come on.

 

[troph 24782]

16 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Besides the fact that most Muslim states are poor, why do some people fall into the identitarian assumption that they all unify simply on the basis of religion. Not all Christian people and states get along. 

Egypt - or whoever else - will use Palestine as long as its convenient and later dispose of them when necessary. They are their own entities in the end. 

because with respect to the US and Israel there is a ton of overlapping positions (of opposition), because many of these nations have a vocal position on Israeli / Palestinian politics, because neighboring countries should do things to help stabilize their region and should engage in humanitarian aid (and I think the US should do this in its own border politics too), because not all motives are clean and there is a long history of Palestinians being used as pawns by countries in the Middle East.

[Parliament 14254]

37 minutes ago, troph said:

just because I think there are some holy (shit) sites in Oregon (never been to NZ), doesn't mean the religous in the mid east will agree.

Oklahoma

[52-80 19149]

23 minutes ago, NoName said:

they could if they wanted to or cared to, but they can't or won't and they haven't.

it is what it is but don't defend them as "poor countries" - come on.

 

Uh, what countries did you think I suggested SHOULD give them harbor? (my point is its none).

And what countries are you suggesting should do it, and are simultaneously flush with excess wealth?

 

 

[52-80 19149]

36 minutes ago, NoName said:

OPEC members earned about $888 billion in net oil export revenue in 2022 alone. they will earn about $2.8 trillion between 21 and 24 based on their projections.

go take a look at the OPEC members in the MENA region alone.

the largest producer and exporter of oil in that list still has a lower per capita gdp than the EU but sure

[InkaUtexas 25892]

They are spread across the gulf  but not large numbers. Here is a graphic from a migration advocacy group in 2022. I do not know their politics. But I can say working in the UAE, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain for 8 years I did not meet that many. My interpreter in Dubai was Palestinian, his parents were doctors, but still never given any rights for land ownership. They did not have the $ to purchase a 99 year lease like the Western. Expats, Russians, rich Indians or Chinese did. 

What is misleading is this map shows both Internally Displaced People (still within Israel's borders but not at home) and Refugees (another country). This is important since the aid given to the two categories is quite different. 

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/palestinian-refugees-dispossession#:~:text=Generations of Palestinian Refugees Face Protracted Displacement and Dispossession,-May 3%2C 2023&text=Seventy-five years after the,the largest stateless community worldwide.

[troph 24782]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

Oklahoma

I thought about that. has historical precedence. eek emoji.

Edited October 17, 2023 by troph

[Trey3216 15346]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

I got the number of Palestinian refugees in Jordan from this dataset published by the UN, which listed 2,334,789 in 2021 and 2,365,090 in 2022, the most recent year. I rounded up to 2.4 million.

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/download/?url=0zZg7O

Also, it should be noted an additional 2.5 million or so Palestinians are refugees inside Gaza or the West Bank, according to the dataset listed above. If you estimate the total Palestinian population of both Gaza and the West Bank to be roughly 5.5 million, that means about 45% of all Palestinians living in either territory are refugees. That sounds like a grim situation.

Finally, the same dataset shows Lebanon hosting close to 500,000 and Syria close to 600,000.

I won't argue the wider responsibility of the Arab world, including Egypt here. Some of this conversation can get a little CR, so I'm not going to go any further.

 

and almost all of the ones in Jordan have been there since at least '73 and are multi-generational 'refugees' who have lived in Jordan their entire life. 

[bolverk 29659]

9 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

and almost all of the ones in Jordan have been there since at least '73 and are multi-generational 'refugees' who have lived in Jordan their entire life. 

If you're itching for a discussion on the topic of the status of refugees in this thread, you won't get one from me. We're already off-topic from the "current events" mandate given to us by Blacklab.

[SquishMitten 10403]

16 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

More pics in the tweet thread

 

 

 

Doesn’t the Super Hornet have like 9 pylons for missiles? What’s the significance of noting that this one is loaded with 3? Are they normally not carrying any? Or typically carrying a different load out?

[SimonBolivar 10958]

Hamas jumping up the rhetoric with this new hospital strike where they're claiming hundreds are dead. They say it's time for the Muslim world to join and help them. Israel says the IDF is looking into it. 

[kevwun 15773]

Those are both air to air missiles.  That's a hello to Iran.

[Trey3216 15346]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

If you're itching for a discussion on the topic of the status of refugees in this thread, you won't get one from me. We're already off-topic from the "current events" mandate given to us by Blacklab.

Not itching for anything.  Was just adding additional context to the data presented.  

[bolverk 29659]

Just now, Trey3216 said:

Not itching for anything.  Was just adding additional context to the data presented.  

Which is fine. Seriously. There's other additional context to the refugee topic, but this isn't the appropriate place. I'm more than happy to provide that, congenially, elsewhere. Let's keep this thread focused on what's going on now in the conflict itself, as requested by mods.  

[Bevo 13575]

9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

If you're itching for a discussion on the topic of the status of refugees in this thread, you won't get one from me. We're already off-topic from the "current events" mandate given to us by Blacklab.

 

 

I think the "mandate" is more like a guideline than an actual rule.

[NoName 16351]

no clue whats happening here but already a ton of misinformation and videos out there on it. ive seen videos purporting to show a failed Hamas rocket launch and a video saying it is an Israeli airstrike and showing it.

+

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edit: already being weaponized no matter what.

edit2: of course a politician already jumped on it. wrong time and direction. at this point not seeing ANYONE clearly say what did/didn't happen and a lot of questions out there about it like an hour+ after it happened is wild

the hamas "failed rocket" video i saw was this one which is old/recycled:

politicians gonna be politicians

another update:

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by NoName

[bolverk 29659]

12 minutes ago, NoName said:

no clue whats happening here but already a ton of misinformation and videos out there on it. ive seen videos purporting to show a failed Hamas rocket launch and a video saying it is an Israeli airstrike and showing it.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Apologies if this has already been posted but Scoop: White House has discussed U.S. military response if Hezbollah attacks Israel.

Quick temp check: who here thinks that the US joining a war in the middle east is a good idea?

[troph 24782]

one of those tweets says "reminder 30-40%...." and if you click on it the remainder of the tweet says "of Hamas rockets misfire and land in Gaza."

oof.

[troph 24782]

3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Apologies if this has already been posted but Scoop: White House has discussed U.S. military response if Hezbollah attacks Israel.

Quick temp check: who here thinks that the US joining a war in the middle east is a good idea?

btw reluctantly joining wars is how world wars happen.

if we do join I'd bet $1000 it's air support only.

Edited October 17, 2023 by troph

[SimonBolivar 10958]

Aaron Boxerman
Oct. 17, 2023, 2:49 p.m. ET6 minutes ago
6 minutes ago
Aaron BoxermanReporting from Jerusalem

The Israel Defense Forces said in a statement that hospitals were not Israeli military targets. “The I.D.F. is investigating the source of the explosion and, like always, is prioritizing accuracy and reliability,” the Israeli military said in a statement. “We urge everyone to proceed with caution.”

 

[bolverk 29659]

15 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Apologies if this has already been posted but Scoop: White House has discussed U.S. military response if Hezbollah attacks Israel.

Quick temp check: who here thinks that the US joining a war in the middle east is a good idea?

I watched this interview with Zeihan last night, and he's pretty adamant in his belief that the US is going to try to stay out of it (unless it's to rescue US hostages).

 

@DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt Start at 14:20 for that part of the discussion.

Edited October 17, 2023 by bolverk

[NoName 16351]

1 hour ago, NoName said:

no clue whats happening here but already a ton of misinformation and videos out there on it. ive seen videos purporting to show a failed Hamas rocket launch and a video saying it is an Israeli airstrike and showing it.

+

+

+

+

+

edit: already being weaponized no matter what.

edit2: of course a politician already jumped on it. wrong time and direction. at this point not seeing ANYONE clearly say what did/didn't happen and a lot of questions out there about it like an hour+ after it happened is wild

the hamas "failed rocket" video i saw was this one which is old/recycled:

politicians gonna be politicians

another update:

 

 

 

more updates

+

expanding into Jordan now:

 

+

 

 

 

MORE misinformation around this attack:

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by NoName

[Schulz2.0 28951]

^The guys JDAM'd by the border fence?

 

[NoName 16351]

20 minutes ago, NoName said:

 

MORE misinformation around this attack:

 

 

well...

 

 

it's too late though:

 

earlier Israel sent out a recommendation for all of their citizens to leave Turkey.

additional info:

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+

well, shit.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by NoName

[Frank Drebin 5663]

8 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

^The guys JDAM'd by the border fence?

 

[bolverk 29659]

For those wanting to avoid Twitter bullshit, I'm finding the Live Update page from Haaretz to be helpful. Their updates are coming in fast and furious. I'm not posting the link because the URL changes periodically with major news. 

Go to the Haaretz homepage: https://www.haaretz.com/ and click the below. Refresh as needed. No paywall.

 

[Brisketexan 105093]

Well.  This all seems to be going about as well as expected.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

Just got a "Breaking News" email from the NYT that Israel bombed the hospital. Nice job confirming the story before you rush it out there fucksticks. 

[Don Johnson 4752]

9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For those wanting to avoid Twitter bullshit, I'm finding the Live Update page from Haaretz to be helpful. Their updates are coming in fast and furious. I'm not posting the link because the URL changes periodically with major news. 

Go to the Haaretz homepage: https://www.haaretz.com/ and click the below. Refresh as needed. No paywall.

 

WTF is going on in that photo?

[Harrison Stafford 3335]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Just give them Oregon. Or New Zealand. 10x the space and far away from the ‘Rabs. 

Everybody wins. 

Before deciding on the final solution, Hitler considered transplanting the Jews to Madagascar.  

[Trey3216 15346]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

I watched this interview with Zeihan last night, and he's pretty adamant in his belief that the US is going to try to stay out of it (unless it's to rescue US hostages).

 

@DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt Start at 14:20 for that part of the discussion.

[bolverk 29659]

2 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

WTF is going on in that photo?

Caption reads: "The funeral of members of the Zohar family, who were murdered in the Kibbutz Nahal Oz.

[NoName 16351]

14 minutes ago, bolverk said:

For those wanting to avoid Twitter bullshit, I'm finding the Live Update page from Haaretz to be helpful. Their updates are coming in fast and furious. I'm not posting the link because the URL changes periodically with major news. 

Go to the Haaretz homepage: https://www.haaretz.com/ and click the below. Refresh as needed. No paywall.

 

im happy to spoiler my tweet links if folks prefer. no issue from my end!

[smuggs 9353]

38 minutes ago, NoName said:

 

 

It's not an interception if it strikes the ground.

 

[Don Johnson 4752]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

Caption reads: "The funeral of members of the Zohar family, who were murdered in the Kibbutz Nahal Oz.

Looks like bodies being dropped into a vertical grave.  That people are inside of.

[bolverk 29659]

2 minutes ago, NoName said:

im happy to spoiler my tweet links if folks prefer. no issue from my end!

No worries. Just trying to identify alternative sources for those worried about bad Twitter accounts.

 

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

Looks like bodies being dropped into a vertical grave.  That people are inside of.

Seems to be the case.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

Quote

 

Reuters

11:12 PM

Islamic Jihad spokesman denies Israeli allegations that it was responsible for Gaza hospital strike

 

True or not, this is going to get some mileage. Lebanon is cancelling school tomorrow too to prepare for the protests.

[bolverk 29659]

Al Jazeera Live Update page links to this Twitter account from a WaPo journalist. Sorry for the editorializing from the first tweet. Focus on the second.

 

[52-80 19149]

6 minutes ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Before deciding on the final solution, Hitler considered transplanting the Jews to Madagascar.  

True story wife proposed honeymooning there until she discovered they had an active national outbreak of the plague. Like actual, literal bulbonic plague. 
 

So we went to Zanzibar instead and she caught montezumas revenge anyway lulz. 

[SimonBolivar 10958]

10 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Just got a "Breaking News" email from the NYT that Israel bombed the hospital. Nice job confirming the story before you rush it out there fucksticks. 

It explicitly says "Palestinian officials say" in the subject line.

[BrickHorn 18218]

11 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Just got a "Breaking News" email from the NYT that Israel bombed the hospital. Nice job confirming the story before you rush it out there fucksticks. 

“In war, truth is the first casualty.” The mass media rushing atrocity stories to print is unsurprising to say the least. Best to take a breath and wait for further investigation to clear things up. But that’s not how human beings work, for the most part.

[MissingInAction 25031]

That was no RPG.

 

[NoName 16351]

33 minutes ago, NoName said:

well...

 

 

it's too late though:

 

earlier Israel sent out a recommendation for all of their citizens to leave Turkey.

additional info:

+

+

well, shit.

 

 

i was going to post a video that they say is the failed launch but man idk if i trust the account so not going to post it until more reliable/trustworthy people do.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

True story wife proposed honeymooning there until she discovered they had an active national outbreak of the plague. Like actual, literal bulbonic plague. 
 

So we went to Zanzibar instead and she caught montezumas revenge anyway lulz. 

I want to party with ya'll

[Anastasis 23466]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

Al Jazeera Live Update page links to this Twitter account from a WaPo journalist. Sorry for the editorializing from the first tweet. Focus on the second.

 

 

Seems we got some ordinance experts here.  Does that look like a prime-grade munition explosion or one of improvised rockets used by the various Palestinian groups? I have no fucking idea how to assess that, but it looks like a big fucking boom.