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Israel-Hamas war thread

Brisketexan

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Jatrain

Jatrain 288

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Viper said:

 

Here's a story for you about how the news industry works.

Earlier tonight, the group that invaded Israel, massacred 1000+ people, burned families to death in their homes, took hostages back to Gaza, and recorded it all with GoPros – this group announced that Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza, killing hundreds.

Then, instead of waiting for more information from the Israeli side, the editors of the world's most important media outlets said to themselves: "This is enough for us. Let's run with it."

Headlines screamed that Israel bombed a hospital. Push notifications were sent to MILLIONS of people.

CNN push: "Hundreds of people may have been killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza City hospital, according to the Palestinian health ministry"

BBC push: "Hundreds feared dead or injured in Israeli air strike on hospital in Gaza, Palestinian officials say"

NYT push: "At least 500 people were killed by an Israeli airstrike at a Gaza hospital, the Palestinian Health Ministry said"

Do you see what they did there?

They put the dramatic news in the beginning of the sentence and then they cited the source at the end so that the assertion is technically true. The Palestinian Health Ministry DID say that.

The thing is, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza is a Hamas institution.

What do you call people who amplify Hamas propaganda not just as news, but as the top news story in the world?

There is no way that a professional military such as the Israel Defense Forces can give an instant answer about a catastrophe in enemy territory during a war. It took around two or three hours for the IDF to share the results of its initial investigation – that the explosion at the hospital was a due to a rocket launched by Islamic Jihad that malfunctioned and crashed back into Gaza. More evidence is coming out as I write this.

The sad fact is that it appears that hundreds of Palestinians are dead at a hospital because terrorists in Gaza tried to fire rockets at Israelis and ended up hitting their own people. It's unbearably stupid and tragic.

None of this is new, unfortunately. Journalists in the Middle East know – they absolutely know – that a significant percentage of Hamas and Islamic Jihad’s rockets misfire and crash into residential areas of Gaza. 

I've attached a famous example. This video is from May 2022. It shows a live broadcast of a rocket being launched from a residential area of Gaza. The rocket malfunctions, turns sideways, and crashes into the city. The overexcited broadcaster tries to pretend that nothing unusual happened and asks the camera man to turn away. The video went viral at the time. There are other known instances where this happened. 

These rockets are designed to kill people. Don't act surprised when they do.

I say all of this to remind you to treat breaking news from Gaza with caution, even if it's unpopular to do so.

And then the irony of this tweet becomes apparent when it turns out the video that the Israeli government is providing as “proof” that it was a Gazan rocket hitting the hotel actually was timestamped 40 minutes after the actual explosion.  And it was the same NYT he criticizes that discovered the Israeli propaganda.

 
It’s almost like we should realize that both sides are putting out disinformation to drive their preferred narrative. 

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BlueGreySky
BlueGreySky

My friend from Nazareth (works as a tour guide and I hang out with her and her family every time I'm there)... digital silence.  Can't get her by phone.  Hasn't posted anything on FB or Insta since Th

TexArcher
TexArcher

I'm continually amazed at the ability of Americans to pick a side in this ongoing fiasco. I know people who are very pro-Israel and others who are very pro-Palestine. All I see is two bad gu

alincoln
alincoln

You must not read your own posts 

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Slacks

Slacks 6791

Posted
Posted

No CR

I hate war. 

I think war is the stupidest, most human thing ever. Right there with religion. 

Nobody keeps the land.Religion doesn't save us from each other. Everyone dies with nothing.  Good, bad, indifferent. No winners in war. 

ou sucks. 

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Viper

Viper 12025

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

And then the irony of this tweet becomes apparent when it turns out the video that the Israeli government is providing as “proof” that it was a Gazan rocket hitting the hotel actually was timestamped 40 minutes after the actual explosion.  And it was the same NYT he criticizes that discovered the Israeli propaganda.

 
It’s almost like we should realize that both sides are putting out disinformation to drive their preferred narrative. 

Not really, the IDF appears to be correct, they just had so many videos of Hamas rockets hitting Palestinians that they posted the wrong one

 

 

 

Seems we can say that either a Hamas misfire caused the explosion, or an Israeli defense missile intercepted the missile and then one or both of them caused the explosion 

 

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Not a cat

Not a cat 5615

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Slacks said:

No CR

I hate war. 

I think war is the stupidest, most human thing ever. Right there with religion. 

Nobody keeps the land.Religion doesn't save us from each other. Everyone dies with nothing.  Good, bad, indifferent. No winners in war. 

ou sucks. 

Tldr- War?  What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

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UT_OB1

UT_OB1 2200

Posted
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1 hour ago, Viper said:

 

 

CNN push: "Hundreds of people may have been killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza City hospital, according to the Palestinian health ministry"

BBC push: "Hundreds feared dead or injured in Israeli air strike on hospital in Gaza, Palestinian officials say"

NYT push: "At least 500 people were killed by an Israeli airstrike at a Gaza hospital, the Palestinian Health Ministry said"

Do you see what they did there?

 

 

8E20335E-CAC3-46F5-8FD7-5773BDBBBB59.jpeg

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bolverk

bolverk 29397

Posted
Posted

 

23 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:


Haaretz leans very hard in one direction. But Al Jazeera links seem to be ok here too and they are Qatari state media.

I don’t envy the mods task here, but what passes as objective in the DT?

I don't know Haaretz's lean. I found an in-country source of information that was providing very quick (and free) live updates to fast-moving events on the ground. They intersperse their feed in-house reporting while also updating feeds from other sources, such as Reuters and AP (two sources that are widely known for not having a "lean").

My posting the above, again, was simply to provide other posters with a handy alternative to Twitter, which multiple sources of disinformation have infected, and their updates were coming just as fast as anything credible on Twitter. 

Do you have a problem with any of my posts from today? Have you checked the link I provided to vet any of their updates? Do you know of another credible, in-country source of information? Is this now the let's bitch about the media thread without examining the fact that several tweets which have been posted haven't also been scrutinized for obvious bias and inaccuracy?

To my knowledge, not a single post was removed from this thread by a mod during this emotionally charged day with a good deal of "fog of war" happenings. The posters on this site have a wide variety of political viewpoints, a good deal of expertise on a number of topics, and we all tend to be fairly skeptical and are mostly media savvy. This leads to a good deal of self-policing, which you can find in this thread.

Do you have another solution, or are you just going to leave a "just asking questions" comment hanging there like a wet fart in a current events thread? We have another thread elsewhere that is much better suited to the news media "lean" topic as it pertains to this ongoing conflict. You're more than welcome to raise your points there, as does Viper and anyone else on this page.

Let's not ruin this news thread with the same tired and cumbersome bullshit that always bogs us down.

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Slacks

Slacks 6791

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Slacks said:

No CR

I hate war. 

I think war is the stupidest, most human thing ever. Right there with religion. 

Nobody keeps the land.Religion doesn't save us from each other. Everyone dies with nothing.  Good, bad, indifferent. No winners in war. 

ou sucks. 

And for clarification, individual religion has merit and value. Sorry. I just get angry at people. 

 

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bolverk

bolverk 29397

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Al Jazeera has very good coverage overall. They are definitely biased in their ME coverage.

 

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

yes they do. For international they watch a lot of things in far off places. 

 

 

I was purposefully not updating from them with anything because of the bias until they linked to the WaPo guy.

Edited by bolverk
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Welshy

Welshy 907

Posted
Posted

Here's a story for you about how people work.

HAMAS: We will kill hundreds and hundreds of their civilian mothers, civilian fathers, civilian sons and civilian daughters. Civilian Babies, civilian toddlers...we'll bath in the blood of civilians. We'll rape, murder and desecrate those civilians in front of their civilian families. We'll kidnap and degrade those civilians. Destroy as many civilians for as long as we can. Let's keep a few hundred or their civilian mothers, civilian daughters, civilian sons and civilian fathers as prisoners, too. We'll make it witchy. 

ISRAEL: We will destroy the people who did this. Many will get hurt and die. Our people and theirs. Many civilians. Many people who had nothing to do with this in any real sense.  We'll try to keep that from happening. We don't have a choice. Our survival is paramount. They won't allow us to survive. 

Around the world: a hospital <<<gasp>>> was struck! Israel is evil! poor Palistine! Occupied by Israel ! (not for ~20 years, but still)

HAMAS: Man, they have forgotten all about us!!! Fucking up a few thousand of those assholes really paid off. We got more money, we have Palestine in the news as martyrs, Arab nations that normally hate us are voicing support for us... LET'S KILL MORE OF THOSE CIVILIANS, IT'S WORKING!!!

The world: tsk tsk Israel.

 

What is the alternative? Turn the other cheek? To a killer who will only stop when you are dead? 

 

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MagicSoccerSpray

MagicSoccerSpray 1725

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, BLKNSTY said:

i can’t see how it isn’t an israeli missile. every single video I’ve seen of a hamas rocket explosion seems like it has barely enough explosive power to light a couple smart cars on fire. like a dozen grenades or so tied together.
this one just wiped the whole hospital and a cool thousand people off the face of the map, I know hospitals keep lots of pressurized o2 but damn.
i think this is going to be huge turning point, no way the millions of the locally displaced palestinians don’t crank up the pressure in jordan/egypt/lebanon/syria. can’t see israel launching a ground invasion of gaza now.

 

Hamas places rockets, explosives, and headquarters in hospitals, schools, etc. It would only take one unlucky explosion in the right place to set it all off.

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 34422

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It’s looking more and more like not only was it a Palestinian misfire, but the body count has no bearing to reality. This is Bellingcat showing local TV footage, hard to believe that they wouldn’t show structure damage if it happened. And you know that Israeli strikes take out whole buildings. 
 

 Reporting on Hamas is like reporting on the Kremlin, they lie always about everything so reporting what they say is always bullshit. 

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Buzzrock

Buzzrock 14870

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6 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

I don't know Haaretz's lean. I found an in-country source of information that was providing very quick (and free) live updates to fast-moving events on the ground. They intersperse their feed in-house reporting while also updating feeds from other sources, such as Reuters and AP (two sources that are widely known for not having a "lean").

My posting the above, again, was simply to provide other posters with a handy alternative to Twitter, which multiple sources of disinformation have infected, and their updates were coming just as fast as anything credible on Twitter. 

Do you have a problem with any of my posts from today? Have you checked the link I provided to vet any of their updates? Do you know of another credible, in-country source of information? Is this now the let's bitch about the media thread without examining the fact that several tweets which have been posted haven't also been scrutinized for obvious bias and inaccuracy?

To my knowledge, not a single post was removed from this thread by a mod during this emotionally charged day with a good deal of "fog of war" happenings. The posters on this site have a wide variety of political viewpoints, a good deal of expertise on a number of topics, and we all tend to be fairly skeptical and are mostly media savvy. This leads to a good deal of self-policing, which you can find in this thread.

Do you have another solution, or are you just going to leave a "just asking questions" comment hanging there like a wet fart in a current events thread? We have another thread elsewhere that is much better suited to the news media "lean" topic as it pertains to this ongoing conflict. You're more than welcome to raise your points there, as does Viper and anyone else on this page.

Let's not ruin this news thread with the same tired and cumbersome bullshit that always bogs us down.

Whoa. Take it easy man, I wasn’t picking on you. I’m not thread shitting, I’m trying to figure out the criteria for sources in this thread. Unfortunately it seems the line between news and propaganda has been erased in this world.
 

I’ve generally been sticking to WSJ links because 1) while not unbiased, they are a known quantity and 2) not everyone pays for the WSJ so I can share stuff that not everyone has access to.

So PSA I guess, Haaretz has been described by the western media as borderline-antisemitic. So just keep that in mind when you subscribe to their content. Doesn’t mean they can’t provide good updates but it’s something to be aware of. 

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29224

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Whoa. Take it easy man, I wasn’t picking on you. I’m not thread shitting, I’m trying to figure out the criteria for sources in this thread. Unfortunately it seems the line between news and propaganda has been erased in this world.
 

I’ve generally been sticking to WSJ links because 1) while not unbiased, they are a known quantity and 2) not everyone pays for the WSJ so I can share stuff that not everyone has access to.

So PSA I guess, Haaretz has been described by the western media as borderline-antisemitic. So just keep that in mind when you subscribe to their content. Doesn’t mean they can’t provide good updates but it’s something to be aware of. 

Haaretz is not antisemitic and anyone saying it is is a fucking dipshit. 

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Haaretz is a liberal-left Israeli paper. It’s hard to call it anti-Semitic.

But to the main topic:  Today should be a day that should teach the Western press not to report things under the rubric “Hamas (or Hamas controlled agencies) says.”  It’s time to treat them like the Kremlin, they lie basically always and about everything, cartoonishly.  This is the same organization that denied targeting civilians basically at the same time their fighters were uploading ultra-violence porn to social media. 
 

Israel is capable of lying too, of course. The difference being the scale and believability.   A good example is the coverup of the journalist that was shot by IDF a while back. First, it’s notable that we recall specific instances of the behavior. Hamas (and the Kremlin) simply have a spigot of shit constantly flowing and it’s just accepted that their statements will change and be untethered to reality, so it’s not a scandal when they lie. It’s just a given. 
 

Second, it was at least plausible that the journalist who got killed died in the crossfire. It turned out to not be true. But both Hamas and the Kremlin lie at an incredible scale that is easily disproven. Which is a tipoff that the lies serve a different type of purpose entirely.

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NoName

NoName 16290

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Posted

this is a long post/thread that has basically all the info you need in it to show what happened with the hospital yesterday. it's long and exhaustive.

tl;dr - "Now that day has broken, and we're getting better evidence, I'm willing to share some PRELIMINARY thoughts on the al-Ahli hospital explosion. The photos of the scene are, to me, not consistent with an airstrike and are not consistent with claims that 500+ people were killed."

text:

 
Quote

 

Now that day has broken, and we're getting better evidence, I'm willing to share some PRELIMINARY thoughts on the al-Ahli hospital explosion. The photos of the scene are, to me, not consistent with an airstrike and are not consistent with claims that 500+ people were killed.
Image
Image
First, I should mention that this thread isn't a forensic or expert investigation, I'm just sharing what I see and what I've seen previously. Nor am I attributing one way or another. Nor does this negate the countless civilians killed in Israel's campaign.
Photos of the aftermath show that the vast majority of the damage is from fire. Only 3 cars show any clear sign of kinnetic/structural damage. And for two of them, the general structure remains intact - despite clear damage. Image
Indeed, within 10m of the impact site there are cars which appear mostly undamaged.
Image
Image
This lack of structural damage to most cars is also clear in the IDF released drone fotage from less than 2hr after the explosion. Again these only show 3 cars with structural damage, and cars more than around 10-15m away appearing mostly undamaged. Image
Footage from ground level this morning shows essentially no crater. And very little damage to the building around 20m away from the impact site.
Image
Image
Next I want to highlight one of the things that the IDF claimed showing damage to roofs of hospital buildings around 30-45m away from the impact site. This would be consistent with an object that broke apart in midair, though I wouldn't view this point as conclusively as others.. Image
Namely because the 'before' image is from two days prior to the strike, I believe there were reports of the hospital being minorly damaged in strikes during that period so it is possible that the roof damage is not from the same time as the explosion.
But all in all, the damage we see is consistent with a small impact, with a lot of fuel accelerant that likely caused most of the fire damage, and very little (within a very narrow radius) structural damage.
Compare the damage from photos of rocket impacts in Ashkelon from last weekend. The only real difference is that this explosion appears to have involved more accelerant (which would track with reporting that this barrage was aimed at Tel Aviv).
Image
Image
Same lack of significant cratering, same structural damage/radius to parked cars. Similar in just a lot of ways.
Compare this to airstrikes in Gaza which tend to leave a much larger crater and cause a lot more damage, they also almost always leave big deposits of concrete dust after striking a structure, though the construction of this particular hospital could be different. Image
I spent a while looking for an individual IAF airstrike on a singular structure, rather than broad/widespread devestation, and found this in lower resolution imagery. It shows the crater, but also the concrete dust cloud deposits that are around 30m from the impact site. Image
Also see this to show the scale of the structural damage and concrete dust.
Next I want to address the claimed casualty count of 500+ killed, which seems widely inconsistent with the damage we can see. I am not doubting that civilians were killed, videos show the bodies collected in the hospital courtyard and I have no reason to doubt that.
It is also more than possible that there were many people in the area. And the casualties could be quite high, especially if people were out in the open and there was falling, burning fuel.
But 500's incredibly high number, honestly implausible. Overlaying the area of damage on Google Earth - keep in mind this is mostly from burning cars NOT the explosion - it is 228m2.
This is that sort of crowd density (assuming there were no survivors which is also implausible).
Image
Image
In July 2016 a truck bomb in Baghdad killed ~350, this is the damage it did.
In Oct 2017, a truck bomb in Mogadishu killed 500+, this is the damage it did.
In Oct 2022, a truck bomb in Mogadishu killed ~125, this is the damage it did.

Compare any of that to the above.

Image
Image
Image
Someone very kindly sent me higher resolution imagery of the airstrike impact I was talking about in this tweet. This demonstrates all the points I Was trying to make about the damage of IAF airstrikes.

Image
None of this absolves the IDF from the countless civilians it has killed in this aerial campaign. There is no excuse for the degree of civilian casualties that the IDF considers acceptable, nor of the siege tactics. And no one can deny the extent of devestation brought to Gaza.
But it seems extremely clear to me, that much (most (all)) of the initial reporting and discussion surrounding this explosion was inaccurate. The discourse and the reaction has quickly overtaken the facts and now it seems that the facts don't really matter.
It has also put me in the unenviable position of not being able to fully trust the numbers that come out of the Gazan Health Ministry, considering they are the only source providing numerical figures of the unquestionably numerous casualties in Gaza.
There is also this claimed audio intercept of communications between Hamas members in the area. I've tried to make the above thread accurate without relying on claims from the IDF which are often inaccurate, but this is still worth noting.
More on the ground footage of the scene, also showing the lack of a crater.

Image
Photos being released of the aftermath today shows that the grassy area to the West of the parking lot was full of civilians (blue in the map), a crowd here when the explosion happened could cause considerable civilian death, especially if there was falling fuel.
Image
Image
There is also photos showing damage nearer to the front of the hospital. This wider damage suggests there may have been a larger debris field which coudlve caused damage and casualties.
Despite this being a mass-casualty event, I still highly doubt the 500+ claim.
Image
Image
This video is the first that shows an impact crater. Once again, inconsistent with an airstrike. This crater is ~10m away (& closer to the civilian camp) from where I initially thought the impact was.


Image
Image
Given a car around 10m away from this impact was flipped by the explosion (which I thought would have meant an almost direct hit) this could further indicate a projectile that broke up mid-air. But this is not something im confident in calling, would love to hear from an expert.
This video looks pretty conclusive too, showing the hospital blast directly underneath rocket trajectories.

H/t @manniefabian
@manniefabian One other thing I will note, is that it is particularly sneaky of the IDF to release the thermal drone imagery in a way that just barely cuts out the small impact crater (around where the red circle would be). No idea if they did this deliberately, but it certainly does not help. Image
But generally when militaries just crop out a very relevant piece of evidence from their media releases... it's not great.
See this perennial example.

 

 

threadreader: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1714535497958334678.html

twitter:

a ton of folks latching onto the 500 death toll being wrong and seriously inflated. that thread talks a good bit about it.

haven't seen any of the OSINT folks in any of my lists share anything in the last ~12 hours hinting at this info below:

 

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troph

troph 24562

Posted
Posted

Last night in the car cnn had an Israeli colonel reporting that IDF had intercepted communications within Hamas talking about a misfire about the time the hospital (parking lot?) was struck … has anyone else seen anything about that? 
supposedly it was going to be released last night but then I didn’t get back to the US/western news to see - I was watching a different news channel for a while that likely wouldn’t report it even if true.

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Bevo

Bevo 13524

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, troph said:

Last night in the car cnn had an Israeli colonel reporting that IDF had intercepted communications within Hamas talking about a misfire about the time the hospital (parking lot?) was struck … has anyone else seen anything about that? 
supposedly it was going to be released last night but then I didn’t get back to the US/western news to see - I was watching a different news channel for a while that likely wouldn’t report it even if true.

Heard the tape this morning. I don't think it will satisfy the pro-Palestinian contingent. They will just say that it is fake.

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NoName

NoName 16290

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, troph said:

Last night in the car cnn had an Israeli colonel reporting that IDF had intercepted communications within Hamas talking about a misfire about the time the hospital (parking lot?) was struck … has anyone else seen anything about that? 
supposedly it was going to be released last night but then I didn’t get back to the US/western news to see - I was watching a different news channel for a while that likely wouldn’t report it even if true.

 

5 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Heard the tape this morning. I don't think it will satisfy the pro-Palestinian contingent. They will just say that it is fake.

audio here:

 

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Bevo

Bevo 13524

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, troph said:

Apparently biden is satisfied the evidence does point to Hamas as the responsible party for the hospital (parking lot?) explosion. 
 

what do we make of that?

 

It seems like Biden is giving unconditional support, but he may be getting blowback from it. I was following a rabbit hole from something I saw on Haeretz regarding mainly Texas representatives like Casar with one from Cali and one from Chicago.

 

 

13 House Democrats Call for Immediate Ceasefire in Gaza

Progressives hope the resolution, which comes after Israel has killed nearly 3,000 Palestinians, will create an opening for other members to follow suit.

October 16 2023, 2:38 p.m.

On Monday, 13 Democrats in the House of Representatives, led by Reps. Cori Bush of Missouri, Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, André Carson of Indiana, Summer Lee of Pennsylvania, and Delia Ramirez of Illinois, introduced a resolution urging the Biden administration to call for an “immediate deescalation and cease-fire in Israel and occupied Palestine” and to send humanitarian aid to Gaza.

“They are running out of body bags,” Tlaib said through tears in a press conference Monday. “We all know collective punishment of Palestinians is a war crime. The answer to war crimes can never be more war crimes.” It is a disgrace, Tlaib added, that Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the majority of Congress have not even mentioned the possibility of a ceasefire. 

The resolution comes after two earlier efforts in the House both fell short of calling for an end to violence. The first — a bipartisan resolution led by Reps. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, and Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., and supported by over 420 members of Congress — did not even mention Palestinian civilians. As of Monday, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza reports that at least 2,808 Palestinians have been killed, while 10,859 have been wounded.

The second, a letter led by Reps. Pramila Jayapal, D-Wash., and Mark Pocan, D-Wis., urged Biden to push for access to food and water in Gaza and ensure Israel follows international law but similarly fell short of calling for a ceasefire. Sources said the letter excluded that language because doing so would have reduced the number of signers from 55 to a dozen or fewer.

The “pro-peace, pro-Israel” J Street threatened to withhold endorsements from members who refused to sign onto the McCaul–Meeks resolution. J Street was once considered an alternative group to support progressive members who did not agree with hard-line and unconditional stances of pro-Israel support like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee or Democratic Majority for Israel. As The Intercept reported, J Street’s stance on the ongoing war has frustrated both former and current staffers who said its mission has been compromised. 

“What we are hearing from Dems right now is even worse than the typical anti-Palestinian narrative we always hear from the government. Israeli officials have openly admitted to genocidal intent, and Democrats are deliberately silent,” said one Democratic staffer who requested anonymity to speak freely. “They are willing accomplices to what is happening and what will happen in the coming days. Those of us staffers who have Palestinian family — or are Palestinians themselves — are totally abandoned and isolated here.”

Below are the 13 representatives who support an immediate deescalation and ceasefire as of Monday afternoon:

Cori Bush
Rashida Tlaib
André Carson
Summer Lee
Delia Ramirez
Jamaal Bowman
Bonnie Watson Coleman
Jesus “Chuy” Garcia
Jonathan Jackson
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Ilhan Omar
Ayanna Pressley
Nydia Velázquez

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troph

troph 24562

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

It seems like Biden is giving unconditional support, but he may be getting blowback from it. I was following a rabbit hole from something I saw on Haeretz regarding mainly Texas representatives like Casar with one from Cali and one from Chicago.

 

 

13 House Democrats Call for Immediate Ceasefire in Gaza

Progressives hope the resolution, which comes after Israel has killed nearly 3,000 Palestinians, will create an opening for other members to follow suit.

October 16 2023, 2:38 p.m.

On Monday, 13 Democrats in the House of Representatives, led by Reps. Cori Bush of Missouri, Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, André Carson of Indiana, Summer Lee of Pennsylvania, and Delia Ramirez of Illinois, introduced a resolution urging the Biden administration to call for an “immediate deescalation and cease-fire in Israel and occupied Palestine” and to send humanitarian aid to Gaza.

“They are running out of body bags,” Tlaib said through tears in a press conference Monday. “We all know collective punishment of Palestinians is a war crime. The answer to war crimes can never be more war crimes.” It is a disgrace, Tlaib added, that Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the majority of Congress have not even mentioned the possibility of a ceasefire. 

The resolution comes after two earlier efforts in the House both fell short of calling for an end to violence. The first — a bipartisan resolution led by Reps. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, and Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., and supported by over 420 members of Congress — did not even mention Palestinian civilians. As of Monday, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza reports that at least 2,808 Palestinians have been killed, while 10,859 have been wounded.

The second, a letter led by Reps. Pramila Jayapal, D-Wash., and Mark Pocan, D-Wis., urged Biden to push for access to food and water in Gaza and ensure Israel follows international law but similarly fell short of calling for a ceasefire. Sources said the letter excluded that language because doing so would have reduced the number of signers from 55 to a dozen or fewer.

The “pro-peace, pro-Israel” J Street threatened to withhold endorsements from members who refused to sign onto the McCaul–Meeks resolution. J Street was once considered an alternative group to support progressive members who did not agree with hard-line and unconditional stances of pro-Israel support like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee or Democratic Majority for Israel. As The Intercept reported, J Street’s stance on the ongoing war has frustrated both former and current staffers who said its mission has been compromised. 

“What we are hearing from Dems right now is even worse than the typical anti-Palestinian narrative we always hear from the government. Israeli officials have openly admitted to genocidal intent, and Democrats are deliberately silent,” said one Democratic staffer who requested anonymity to speak freely. “They are willing accomplices to what is happening and what will happen in the coming days. Those of us staffers who have Palestinian family — or are Palestinians themselves — are totally abandoned and isolated here.”

Below are the 13 representatives who support an immediate deescalation and ceasefire as of Monday afternoon:

Cori Bush
Rashida Tlaib
André Carson
Summer Lee
Delia Ramirez
Jamaal Bowman
Bonnie Watson Coleman
Jesus “Chuy” Garcia
Jonathan Jackson
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Ilhan Omar
Ayanna Pressley
Nydia Velázquez

Don’t know that Biden isn’t asking for restraint. Ground invasion may happen but it hasn’t yet. Reports are Biden will still be talking to Middle East leaders today. My post was simply that Biden says he reviewed intelligence including US intelligence and is satisfied it was Hamas, not an Israeli strike. 
 

a ceasefire is probably in everyone’s best interest especially given Hamas leadership casualties. I suspect weapon caches and factories are also severely diminished now too. Is that enough? If a ceasefire prevents a world war then yes.

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bolverk

bolverk 29397

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

Whoa. Take it easy man, I wasn’t picking on you. I’m not thread shitting, I’m trying to figure out the criteria for sources in this thread. Unfortunately it seems the line between news and propaganda has been erased in this world.
 

I’ve generally been sticking to WSJ links because 1) while not unbiased, they are a known quantity and 2) not everyone pays for the WSJ so I can share stuff that not everyone has access to.

So PSA I guess, Haaretz has been described by the western media as borderline-antisemitic. So just keep that in mind when you subscribe to their content. Doesn’t mean they can’t provide good updates but it’s something to be aware of. 

Oh F Off GIF - Oh F Off GIFs

 

Yesterday, you didn't provide shit other than a Johnny-come-lately complaint last night about my posting information provided by an Israeli newspaper that you've now labeled as being "described by the western media as borderline-antisemitic."

By whom? Who has labeled them as such? A claim like that needs a follow-up and sourcing.

Are you seriously worried about the line being crossed between "news and propaganda" when half the news feed reads "according to the IDF" and "according to the Palestinian health ministry"? 

We're fucking smart enough to read between the lines, and we understand who is saying what.

I wasn't putting shit out there from some dumbass Twitter edgelord with fewer than 300 followers (I don't even know how that one was found) and a total of 25 posts where a couple of them complain that the media says "according to" in a headline or even an Indian Twitter bot with a video of a two-year-old incident. Jesus.

Get some fucking perspective and take your complaints against "the media" elsewhere.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89407

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, troph said:

Meanwhile Putin and china getting super cozy… calling for a “fairer multi polar world…”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/china/china-bri-forum-opening-ceremony-intl-hnk/index.html
 

neither condemning Hamas. 

A few days I posted Tass's official party-line take on the issue, and it was what you'd expect, and mentioned that Putin came out and said that it would be unacceptable if Israel killed any Palestinian civilians.  Russia is firmly on the side of Hamas.

 

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statsman

statsman 5421

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, troph said:

Meanwhile Putin and china getting super cozy… calling for a “fairer multi polar world…”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/china/china-bri-forum-opening-ceremony-intl-hnk/index.html
 

neither condemning Hamas. 

 

Interestingly, Russia wants a multi-polar world while China is calling for a new (China centric) world order(I.e. mono polar around Beijing). 

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Schulz2.0

Schulz2.0 28764

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, statsman said:

Interestingly, Russia wants a multi-polar world while China is calling for a new (China centric) world order(I.e. mono polar around Beijing). 

Russia and China are aligned in hating a US/Western led world. After that, they don't really trust each other.

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troph

troph 24562

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

A few days I posted Tass's official party-line take on the issue, and it was what you'd expect, and mentioned that Putin came out and said that it would be unacceptable if Israel killed any Palestinian civilians.  Russia is firmly on the side of Hamas.

 

that's well known, the public appearance and statements about a multi-polar world while the world now has two wars directly or indirectly encouraged/planned/funded by Russia and Iran is deeply concerning.  add to that Chinese aggression in the South China sea (see Pentagon video releases the last 24 hours) and we have the makings of some really, really bad shit happening.

Edited by troph
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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Completely by design.  Twitter is working the way he wanted it to.

The more sensational the tweet, the more reactions to it, the more the author makes in ad-sharing revenue. 

Meanwhile, Elon and his ilk decry the MAINSTREAM MEDIA because of its perceived lack of accuracy/idealogical slant.

Unplug me. 

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