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Brisketexan

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52-80

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

On the college campuses, I don’t know that it’s motivated by anti-semitism as much as by training to have a default affinity for marginalized peoples. 

…
Gazans are poor, and have restricted mobility out, either to Israel or Egypt. Israel takes the lead in restricting and monitoring supplies into Gaza. That is one part of the equation. 
 …

I think that where you fall on this decision guides how you view the situation. 

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

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My friend from Nazareth (works as a tour guide and I hang out with her and her family every time I'm there)... digital silence.  Can't get her by phone.  Hasn't posted anything on FB or Insta since Th

TexArcher
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I'm continually amazed at the ability of Americans to pick a side in this ongoing fiasco. I know people who are very pro-Israel and others who are very pro-Palestine. All I see is two bad gu

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You must not read your own posts 

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Brisketexan

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51 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

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DDD Dad

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6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

My eldest (1/4 Jewish) and his fiancée are both very pro-Palestine and have posted their views on social media (including a hasty condemnation of Israel for the hospital bombing). It’s very difficult to approach them with constructive suggestions of moderating their perspective. 
it’s simply too raw for them I think and so I’m going to wait to see how things play out before approaching them. 
 

FWIW I’m pro-Palestinians AND pro-Israelis. 

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gsoda3

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20 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

My eldest (1/4 Jewish) and his fiancée are both very pro-Palestine and have posted their views on social media (including a hasty condemnation of Israel for the hospital bombing). It’s very difficult to approach them with constructive suggestions of moderating their perspective. 
it’s simply too raw for them I think and so I’m going to wait to see how things play out before approaching them. 
 

FWIW I’m pro-Palestinians AND pro-Israelis. 

does that explain your posting style as quasi moderater of threads or does the latter influence your real life experience?

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JBJ

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1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

These college and hyperactivist types are merely fucking stupid.

I get sympathizing with the long-time underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic. However, staking your flag on the side that had just committed large-scale civilian massacre is hopelessly regarded.

Thing is, I dont believe most of them are anti-semitic — that their reaction are rooted in actual hatred of Jews. Its a terrible recent state of affairs where people reflexively throw historically-extreme labels against others….but kinda ironic that they’re now charged with anti-semitism. 

Charged words like "open air prison," "genocide," "aparteid state," "anti-semitism" are huge clues that the person speaking has no idea what they are actually talking about.

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statsman

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This is what’s great about free speech. People are allowed to show who they are. 
 
In Weimar Germany, there were laws against anti-Semitic speech. All they accomplished was to suppress the Nazis’ display of what they believed. The laws didn’t moderate the Nazis’ views; they hid them. 

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GabrielsHorn

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19 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

Lots more info in the tweet thread.

 

I don't think we will never know what really happened...

 

Thanks for sharing and do agree that the fog of war/limitations to access to the site.
 

However, as a note, one organization appears to have just started posting for this specific event (the audio analysis) and one organization is a Palestinian NGO. 

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52-80

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52 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Man, I don't know if y'all have been following, but lots of students are getting their offers rescinded at top firms for being incendiary pro-Palestine (to almost be anti-Israel).

Also, lots of donors/alumni pushing back on colleges and adminstration (namely Penn).

Lets act ignorant and brazenly inflammatory towards one of the most accomplished ethnic/religious groups in America. What could go wrong. 

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52-80

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37 minutes ago, statsman said:

This is what’s great about free speech. People are allowed to show who they are. 
 
In Weimar Germany, there were laws against anti-Semitic speech. All they accomplished was to suppress the Nazis’ display of what they believed. The laws didn’t moderate the Nazis’ views; they hid them. 

Fwiw germany still has anti-hatespeech laws and criminalizes holocaust/genocide denial

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mchookem

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

 

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

My eldest (1/4 Jewish) and his fiancée are both very pro-Palestine and have posted their views on social media (including a hasty condemnation of Israel for the hospital bombing). It’s very difficult to approach them with constructive suggestions of moderating their perspective. 
it’s simply too raw for them I think and so I’m going to wait to see how things play out before approaching them. 
 

FWIW I’m pro-Palestinians AND pro-Israelis. 

hooboy i got into a back and forth text convo with my very passionate and exuberant niece (college senior in Texas) yesterday about it all. she's definitely in the camp of sympathizing with the 'underdogs' here, though she did admit Hamas are terrorists and need to go. i even got a rant about how she trusts random personal accounts on tiktok and reddit more than any US media or official statement from our government bc they are 'completely raw and unregulated and don't have an agenda'. i mean...wtf? 😐

i guess overall it's a positive, at least she's paying attention and wants to do something. i'm convinced the empathy, anger, and stridency of these Gen-Zers is what it's going to take to actually right our collective ship. i mean when i was 21 i was focused almost exclusively on boys and my social activities 😄😊

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56 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

Lots more info in the tweet thread.

 

I don't think we will never know what really happened...

 

I’m glad you posted this, as it’s some shittastic OSINT analysis. Actually, it isn’t analysis but it’s posing as such. 
 

I will get this out of the way first: Using the terms “IOF” throughout Tweet and ending with a tag that this org “stands with Palestine” kind of gives away the game, but I’ll just focus on the report’s own errors and contradictions: 

1. Directionality is a big part of the analysis, but this examination completely ignores the assessment of a wayward Gaza origin rocket and the available video. The assessment is that a rocket fired from Gaza veered off course.  A CNN report from a few days ago even points out what everyone saw with their own eyes:  A Gaza origin rocket malfunctioned and changed direction before falling on the hospital:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/gaza-rocket-hospital-blast-vpx.cnn 
 

Impact patterns do not show where a projectile was fired from, they show the direction they were traveling at landing. A malfunctioning rocket is not following its original trajectory.

2. This analysis focuses on the crater and audio (more later). But we have more than that to go on, namely— we have lots of actual video of the explosion itself.  A failure to work that into analysis is a stunning failure or an intentional omission.  And the video of the explosion is nowhere near consistent with an artillery round. In addition, analysis in this thread only compares the crater to IDF ordnance and not to what the crater from a Gaza origin rocket might look like. That’s a lot of stacking the deck.

3. The partner investigator completely contradicts the artillery shell theory. They refer to a “missile attack” throughout. Which is it? An artillery shell or a missile? 

image.thumb.jpeg.3117a05fc28f02220174e8665270d90c.jpeg


image.thumb.jpeg.8f1b73acc679156b360cb3c31178ec2a.jpeg

I should not need to say that an artillery or missile/rocket strike makes very different sounds. 
 

Also, just to point out that the audo NGO’s Twitter has 11 posts total, all about Israel and Palestine. Make of that what you will. 
 

Bottom line— clearly biased org doing blatantly garbage analysis. You don’t need to be a weapons expert to see the flaws, it’s just the logic and contradictions on its face with careful reading. 

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I’d also say that if you followed MH 370, you’re familiar with the pattern of endlessly cycling implausible explanations vs. one static good one.  The explanations I’ve seen on one side:

1. Air strike with JDAM Mk-80 series bomb that leveled the hospital

2. JDAM Mk-80 that didn’t destroy the hospital because it was in “airburst mode”

3. Israeli drone firing Spike or Hellfire missiles

4. Now, Israeli artillery 

From the other side:

1. Gaza based militants fired a rocket that malfunctioned 

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Samson's Wig

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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Good post.

On the one hand.....look, I remember being a dumbass passionate 18-20 year old.  I believed and felt things very, very deeply (for me, it was mostly "I believe I'd like to hook up with that cute gal over by that end of the bar," but I digress...)  So I very much understand how that demographic will end up sympathizing with the underdog in an unbalanced power dynamic.

And yeah, that youthful exuberance, combined with youthful dumbassery, can lead to them getting out over their skis and championing a side that just committed an unforgivable act of terrorism against innocents.  It's not that these dumbasses are anti-semitic (I'm sure that some of them are, but it's not the primary motivator for most).  It's that they find themselves so far out over their skis that they become what they claim to hate.  The irony is that same criticism can be lobbed against the overreaching Israeli state (jews are the world's underdogs...who now find themselves playing the role of the oppressor.  Not a good look).

As for young people taking extreme positions....tale as old as time, won't end anytime soon.

I believed and did a lot of stupid shit as an 18-20 year old as well, but I never joined any hate groups.  And that is exactly what most of the pro-Palestinian groups on college campuses are and always have been.

I agree that many of the staunch pro-Palestinian kids on any given campus are mostly muddle-headed young folks with good intentions and still developing brains, but you can bet your ass that the student leaders of these groups are straight-up antisemitic genocidal pieces of shit, and they are methodically and purposefully steering other young people down a path of hatred.  Many years ago, I went back to school for my law degree around age 30, making me the old guy in every class.  My jaw hit the floor every time discussions of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict came up and I heard what came out of the mouths of some of my younger classmates.  It was vile, unadulterated, racism of the nastiest kind.  I have no illusions about these student groups. They're fucking evil. 

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Schulz2.0

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I have a friend from college that worked in the state department. He worked out of Israel for a couple years in his mid-30s. He hasn't held a high opinion of Israel since his experience there. Some people forget that Israel has plenty crazy religious zionists that basically hold terroristic beliefs.

Edited by Schulz2.0
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FartingMonk

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16 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

I believed and did a lot of stupid shit as an 18-20 year old as well, but I never joined any hate groups.  And that is exactly what most of the pro-Palestinian groups on college campuses are and always have been.

I agree that many of the staunch pro-Palestinian kids on any given campus are mostly muddle-headed young folks with good intentions and still developing brains, but you can bet your ass that the student leaders of these groups are straight-up antisemitic genocidal pieces of shit, and they are methodically and purposefully steering other young people down a path of hatred.  Many years ago, I went back to school for my law degree around age 30, making me the old guy in every class.  My jaw hit the floor every time discussions of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict came up and I heard what came out of the mouths of some of my younger classmates.  It was vile, unadulterated, racism of the nastiest kind.  I have no illusions about these student groups. They're fucking evil. 

I was a freshmen at UT when 9/11 happened.  I had signed up for a War and Conflict course.  The prof said fuck this and threw out his syllabus.  It was an interesting class but we had speakers come in and said the US deserved it.  Some people including me were angry but a lot of people said yeah.  The Palestinian cause and US interests absolutely caused 9/11 to happen and the people who died deserved it.  I was absolutely appalled.  I was doing a work study with a guy from Pakistan and he said the same thing.  It really opened my eyes.  20 years later and after being in the military I still feel that if you attack a military target.  Then that's free game.  I don't care.  Civilians are absolutely not part of it.  You shoot civilians and kidnap civilians then you're a terrorist.  If anyone sides with them then they are aiding terrorists 

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52-80

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12 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I have a friend from college that worked in the state department. He worked out of Israel for a couple years in his mid-30s. He hasn't held a high opinion of Israel since his experience there. Some people forget that Israel has plenty crazy religious zionists that basically hold terroristic beliefs.

Theres crazies in every group. I think Bibi and his wife are a real nasty couple. IDF arent angels (unavoidable after decades of policing a contentious border). Mass killing of non-mil/combatants is just something else though. 

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Bevo

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I knew a girl who did spy stuff and married an Israeli. She became a much larger fan of Israel after she met more people from there. Really fascinating. Some people forget that some people from Israel are really nice and wouldn't hurt flies.

 

 

--- let's not get into this shit. Good people and bad people come from all over.

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Harrison Stafford

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34 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I have a friend from college that worked in the state department. He worked out of Israel for a couple years in his mid-30s. He hasn't held a high opinion of Israel since his experience there. Some people forget that Israel has plenty crazy religious zionists that basically hold terroristic beliefs.

Yep.  There are people on both sides of this conflict that do not want peace.

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DDD Dad

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3 hours ago, mchookem said:

 

hooboy i got into a back and forth text convo with my very passionate and exuberant niece (college senior in Texas) yesterday about it all. she's definitely in the camp of sympathizing with the 'underdogs' here, though she did admit Hamas are terrorists and need to go. i even got a rant about how she trusts random personal accounts on tiktok and reddit more than any US media or official statement from our government bc they are 'completely raw and unregulated and don't have an agenda'. i mean...wtf? 😐

i guess overall it's a positive, at least she's paying attention and wants to do something. i'm convinced the empathy, anger, and stridency of these Gen-Zers is what it's going to take to actually right our collective ship. i mean when i was 21 i was focused almost exclusively on boys and my social activities 😄😊

Yeah, I’d much rather talk about their film career and the chance that their short film that won at Sundance and SXSW gets an Oscar nod in January. 
 

Oh and that they finally set their wedding date. 

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Schulz2.0

Schulz2.0 29280

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2 hours ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

Yea, it's the whole acting on them thing that's the problem. 

Like this guy?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

Remember that the current Israeli Minister of National Defense had a picture of him in his living room prior to going into politics and belonged to the same extremist political party before it was banned. He's part of the same far right groups that formed Netanyahu's coalition government.

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statsman

statsman 5693

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Fwiw germany still has anti-hatespeech laws and criminalizes holocaust/genocide denial

I think that’s a mistake on Germany’s part. They had those laws in 1972. After the Israelis were killed at the Olympics, Germany had some terrorists in jail. The Palestinians said that there would be more terror heading Germany’s way if they weren’t released. Brandt agreed with the plan to allow the Palestinians to make a bogus skyjacking of a plane filled with German police, which was then traded for the terrorists. 
 
 Lessons- Germany outlawed anti-Semitic speech, but still valued German lives over guest Israeli lives. 
 
Israel was going to be on its own seeking Justice. 
 
Better in America, where people are allowed to talk and reveal who they really are and what they believe. 

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Bevo

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10 minutes ago, Smax said:

We will leave once oil is no longer the world's driving force.

Go green

 

 

Where will we get our plastics, eyeglasses, deodorants, basketballs, soap, bike tires, condoms, toothbrushes, loudspeakers, spandex, polyester, aspirin, and refrigerators?

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Welshy

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I'm an Ibuprofen guy, but I'm aware the oldz LOVE the asprin.

 

34 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

 

Where will we get our plastics, eyeglasses, deodorants, basketballs, soap, bike tires, condoms, toothbrushes, loudspeakers, spandex, polyester, aspirin, and refrigerators?

Asprin? WOAH....

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 90650

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14 hours ago, statsman said:

Israel has decided that, existentially, they cannot let Iran have nukes. And I really mean “existentially” (at least, for this iteration of Iran). There is a fascinating history of the lengths they will go to to forestall that happening - murder, sabotage. 

They have reason to fear Iran selling those nukes elsewhere.

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Smax

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Where will we get our plastics, eyeglasses, deodorants, basketballs, soap, bike tires, condoms, toothbrushes, loudspeakers, spandex, polyester, aspirin, and refrigerators?
If I knew the answer to that, I would be in Vegas doing blow off 5 hookers couchies
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Cacti

Cacti 191

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8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’d also say that if you followed MH 370, you’re familiar with the pattern of endlessly cycling implausible explanations vs. one static good one.  The explanations I’ve seen on one side:

1. Air strike with JDAM Mk-80 series bomb that leveled the hospital

2. JDAM Mk-80 that didn’t destroy the hospital because it was in “airburst mode”

3. Israeli drone firing Spike or Hellfire missiles

4. Now, Israeli artillery 

French Military Intelligence Says Israeli Strike Not Behind Gaza Hospital Blast

Quote

PARIS (Reuters) - A blast at a Gaza hospital was not the result of an Israeli missile strike, but likely caused by a misfiring Palestinian rocket, the French military intelligence directorate (DRM) said on Friday.

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